Dharma Diagnostic Clinic, aka "What was that?"

RE: drop in an ocean

Bilbo Baggins — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:06:58 GMT

Indeed I will!
I was following a new age type guru, with a mixed bag of meditation techniques including chakra med., insight med., I think what you call samatha med., body scanning med. - lots of tried and tested techniques but no particular plan or pathway.

One day laying on bedroom floor looking into sensation in my body, tingling feelings, blockages, that type stuff, and breathing deeply.
I noticed that the feeling was getting stronger and seemed to be spreading throughout my limbs like water seeping through places that had previously been dry. Definitely remember it spreading up through my legs and through my pelvis area.
It felt like I was being flooded, and the feeling overwhelmed me, I felt it wash out through what had seemed previously to be my personal boundary, and outwards into ,,, into whatever/myself but it seemed to have no boundary.
Looking around I distinctly remember this feeling as also flowing in everything I could see - which wasn't much as I was laying on the floor in a small room, but could feel one life going through me and through the plants in the room as a continuous flow, or rather a still pool. My environ was quite restricted but inside I seemed limitless, like I had been in a bathtub all my life but has suddenly found myself in the reservoir from where the water was piped. Like many others have noted, it seemed that that was more like my true nature or state.
It got so intense I thought I was going to die and it felt like the fear dumped me back out of the state, it was too much for my circuits. Therefore it was just a brief flash, really.
I then felt like I had been poured from a 4D world back into a 3D body.

I've been craving it's return, on and off, for the last 20 years because it was so pleasurable, or even wondering what it would be like to plunge in forever and not be dumped out by my own fear. I'm sure the Buddhistic attitude would be that the craving is another activity of the mind to be observed, and I think this is perhaps a good attitude but not necessarily easy.
I think also that it could be seen to be just another phenomena arising in mind, something that can be observed, and I would agree with this but cannot quite see that it isn't something that should be a permanent feature of our experience, a supreme state of inner health. Constant ecstasy may be just madness, I don't know.

I know quite a lot of people experience this one way or another - psychedelics and etc., meditation, spontaneous, even brain injuries and epilepsy. I also know that it's probably part of well established traditions but I have never really looked at Buddhism in detail before because it's such a big complicated mess of sects, philosophies and teachers with a lot of baggage from thousands of years of Chinese whispers, interpretations and worldviews that clash with my Western mindset.

I have looked at the implications of this deep sense of self and it's apparent implications such as - the substance of the world is one of both matter and feeling, the world is literally alive in as much as we see it as our own life, that the Earth is indeed a being, but not a separate being from ourselves. My other idea about it is that it is the origin of ideas about immortality, that although forms can be changed and destroyed the formless feeling/substance of life remains to be remoulded.
So there is a basis for reincarnation of a kind, if that aspect of the self is not tied to a specific form, but I have no memories of previous lives so cannot honestly subscribe to that part of religious traditions and remain skeptical/agnostic.

Those are deductions from the inside view, perhaps a scientific view would be that there was simply a synesthesia between sense and feeling. Also the scientific view is that indeed there is a substance that is moulded and remoulded to form life, plain old matter.

Thanks for getting back to me Daniel, I'll be interested in any comments and appreciate the work you are doing here.

Try this for an excellent artistic representation of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kqyLSZWso

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

asaf bartov — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:05:52 GMT

hi daniel,

unfortunately I didn't understand completely your answer -
"The standard criteria in the Was that Emptiness chapter still apply"
the criteria for what? and what is the emptiness chapter? - can you explain?

but as an answer to what you've suggested after it -

i can't do it again, i meditate daily and since that experience my practice is very "dry".

before that experience, practicing was really much more rewording for me, i could really feel the good effect, and it came with a really good period in my life of openness and un-characteristic happiness.
almost straight after the effect of the experience ended, i mentally closed up and my practice really stagnated and feels much less benefecial , although i try to revive it. which is weird after what i consider gave me the knowledge that the dharma is real and has the potential for the big change.
as for trying to "cycle", I'm supposed do a serious retreat (6 days of vipassana - which for me is serious) in about two weeks ill see if something will happen.

anyway, there's no doubt for me that its much easier for me to understand philosophy, like Krishnamurti, after that experience. that, as you suggested in you're book, could relate to A&P.

Burst of light

Bart W — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:10:39 GMT

First of, thank you all for providing such usefull information. I have been reading MCTB and DhO for a while now after using the simpler (western interpretation type) mindfullness meditation techniques for almost two years. My medtitation experience has become much more meaningfull almost instantly.

This brings me to my question. Lately while doing concentration practice my mind sometimes goes blank and floods my vision with a bright light. It also feels as if my whole brain turns into light. Often I also hear it, like the sounds the TV makes when on a blank channel (we call it snow). The feeling is remarkably similar to having low bloodsugar, still workout out vigorously and almost passing out because of it, except with no nauseau or fatigue

This feels quite nice, however, now that I have experienced this several times for very brief periods, I seem to crave it. I know craving is "bad". Thus when the first signs of "it" appear, I snuff it out, and there I sit frustrated.

I'm affraid the answer will come in MCTB. However, I don't want to rush reading it just to get to a bit about this for fear of loosing proper understanding of the text.

The question: what is this? Is it something to work towards obtaining and maintaining, and if so, how?

RE: drop in an ocean

Daniel M. Ingram — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:01:28 GMT

Sounds nice, whatever it is.

Would you provide more background, context, before, after, timing, duration, other qualities and aspects to help those who are interested in applying map theory to your experience?

Daniel

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

Daniel M. Ingram — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:45:02 GMT

The standard criteria in the Was that Emptiness chapter still apply.

See if you can do it again, see if you cycle now, see if you can sit down in the A&P straight up and progress up from there with relative ease, etc.

Lots of things can feel like this. By far in a way the most common is the A&P: a big gap, life changing, and not always with all the Kundalini stuff and build up and all of that. I know people who have never done any meditation who just crossed it one day, poof, and that was it. I vote for A&P, but again, apply the criteria, see what happens next, and the like...

Daniel

drop in an ocean

Bilbo Baggins — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:02:32 GMT

OK, I've been looking through the MCTB wiki and trying to place this experience in the scheme of things.
The feeling of ecstasy welling up inside, bodily boundary dissolves and there seems to be a continuum between self as ecstasy and world as ecstasy.
The time honoured phrase 'drop in a boundless ocean' seemed to sum it up, as well as a sense of immortality, of being composed of an ever fluid substance that crystalizes into forms that are perceived.

I have to say, the mental connotations on top of the feeling were not the same as the feeling itself, so I am wary of adding interpretations that arise due to expectations, but those descriptions seemed apt.

I'm having difficulty matching that up with descriptions of the many and varied states in the MCTB, yet I am sure many of you are familiar with what I mean.

At a guess I think it's maybe one of the first jhanas but nothing written there exactly matches. On the other hand that perception crops up a lot in other writings on mysticism and meditation so I know it's a well understood state, and possibly preliminary in an extensive multi stage scheme/map such as yours.

What says ye?

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

M S — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:04:41 GMT

Awesome! Thanks a lot for this, i'll definitely read all i can. And yes you are right that it's hard to practise on your own sometimes, the problem is that in my country buddhism is almost non-existent, and the traditions (tibetan mostly) not really interest me (i'm not saying they are invalid of course!). Plus, i'm not quite sure about committing to a tradition, i'm very inclined to Theravada (mostly) and Zen as i said, but i find both of these traditions also suffer from plenty of dogmas and rituals that i don't think they were intended by Buddha himself.

Anyway, i still need to develop my concentration a little more (i've been practising on and off for almost 5 years i think), but this thread and your answers definitely opened a door for me that maybe it's already time to introduce insight practice into my meditation. I'm always trying to stay mindful of the teachings during the day, but of course it's not the same.

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

Ian And — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 00:24:23 GMT

M S:

But as i focus mostly on samatha and concentration while i meditate, i haven't done many insight practices or took that into my meditation sessions. . . . The problem i'm facing is that i'm not too sure when or how should i apply each. I guess it comes natural.

Yes. This can be a problem when you don't have any personal guidance from someone who knows you, and who can help to clarify how to go about training. There are so many variations that can be suggested that it really depends upon the practitioner's individual progress as to what one might suggest.

For people like yourself, who are practicing on their own, I have found two books that may help with advancing skill-sets that are basic requirements for development. The first has to do with being able to pay "bare attention" to phenomena. This skill-set is very valuable and is talked about quite extensively in Nyanaponika Thera's classic book The Heart of Buddhist Meditation. This book may help provide you with some direction concerning the course and content of your meditation sessions in addition to helping you to achieve this skill-set.

Once you are able to become proficient with this skill, then the other book will provide you with some suggestions for integrating your practice with the main course of satipatthana practice, which is pure insight practice. Satipatthana is the practice which the Buddha recommended to his advanced students who were ready to make a direct assault on awakening. If you've read up on satipatthana, then you know that it deals with observing the body, feelings, mind states, and dhammas. In his book Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization, Ven. Analayo directs the reader through various discourses suggesting modes of practice that will help the practitioner begin practicing satipatthana. His explanations about this practice are spot on, and help the reader to better understand what it is that they can do.

I used these two books (along with quite a few others, which were more academic in their focus rather than practice oriented) in my own practice to help me make progress. I had the advantage of already having had a personal teacher (although he wasn't available when I was undergoing this portion of my training), as well as having had twenty years of practice under my belt, so I was able to understand from previous experience how to work the suggestions in these two books into my practice. I think they might be able to help provide you with some direction for your practice. The second book takes up where the first book leaves off, by delving into all the other methods used in satipatthana practice. I would recommend reading and understanding them in the order given above.

I've transcribed some passages from the first book in another forum where you are free to read them if you wish. You will have to follow the instruction I give here in order to enter the forum as it is still a private forum, closed to the general public. But there is login information (that I will give shortly) which will allow you to enter the forum to access the thread that the transcriptions are in. The thread is called The Importance of Using Satipatthana in Training. But don't click that link just yet. You'll have to go to the forum first, enter using the login information given below, then copy the link above into your clip board and paste it into the browser destination bar once you are in the forum and click on it, and it will take you directly to the thread. The forum that the thread is in is the "Theravada Talk" forum, and the thread is at the top of the forum as a sticky. Use the following information to enter the forum:

Third Jewel Forum:
http://thirdjewel.myfreeforum.org
Login name: thirdwheel
Password: thirdwheel

They ask that you not post anything while using this log-in to check things out. If you would like to join, there is a "Join (free!)" link at the top of the forum index page in the forum link above.

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

M S — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:18:55 GMT

Perfectly understood then, thanks again!

RE: Counterpart sign?

Ian And — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 05:11:52 GMT

Hi Stain,

Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:

My question is if this experience was the counterpart sign or something else. I am reluctant calling it anything else because it seems utterly crazy to think it was something "higher/deeper", even despite my enormous craving for deliverance.

The quick and short answer to your question is: no, that "white, puffy/fluffy, cloudy kind of energy" was not a counterpart sign. It's not even important in the overall scheme of things, either. Just more stuff to let go of. If it helped to give you confidence in the efficacy of meditation, then use that confidence to try and accomplish something of more lasting significance.

If deliverance is what you are after (and this would be of more lasting significance), you would need to be practicing contemplation on the constituent parts of your mental experience in order to see it as it actually is. As impermanent, dissatisfying, and ultimately without self (or as the Buddha was fond of saying: "this is not me", "this is not mine", "this is not myself"').

I've discussed my take on "access concentration" (and hence, counterpart signs, since a counterpart sign is said to foretell the emergence of access concentration) in the following thread "the difference between Access Concentration and the 1st Jhana," if you care to read an expansion on the subject.

When people first take up a practice in meditation, all sorts of weird experiences can occur, leaving the practitioner to wonder what just happened. In most cases it was only the mind attempting to maintain control over your experience of awareness by presenting you with a distraction which might keep you going around in circles for who knows how long. In other words, just stuff to let go of. Once you begin to clear all that "stuff" out of your system, then you can get down to the business end of meditation/contemplation. Which means, then you can begin to concentrate on achieving something of lasting significance aimed at relieving the mind of dukkha, recognizing and letting go of delusions, and bringing the mind to tranquility and peace. In the case of these latter three pursuits, it would be most efficacious to practice satipatthana (or the four establishments of mindfulness) as this is explained in the two Satipatthana suttas of the discourses of the Buddha.

An excellent book on this ancient practice can be found in Ven. Analayo's treatise on the subject titled Satipattana, The Direct Path to Realization. Another book on this same subject which is aimed at some very eye-opening practical instruction on bringing the mind to quietude through the use of a practice called "bare attention" is the book The Heart of Buddhist Meditation, by Nyanaponika Thera. Both of these books are classics in Buddhist meditation and well worth reading and investing time in.

In peace,
Ian

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

Ian And — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 04:14:31 GMT

M S:

But my samatha meditation kinda hit a wall as i explained, so....if i understood you correctly, it may be time for me to slowly switch gears and start to practice insight, right?

That's pretty much what the last paragraph in my response was all about.

Use samatha to calm and quiet the mind, then use that quietness to begin watching the mind. In the process of watching the mind, insight will eventually arise, or you'll see something that you may want to explore in more detail and then insight will arise as you are contemplating whatever subject you're looking at.

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

M S — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 04:00:00 GMT

Yes, thanks again for the help. I'm very familiar with buddhism and dharma, although not an expert, but i've read plenty of sutras and i've been reading a lot in general for more than five years. I mostly focused on Theravada and Zen, at least that's what i tend to read more.

I forgot to mention, but i try to contemplate the 3 marks of existence daily, but so far mostly in mundane tasks and daily life as you said. But as i focus mostly on samatha and concentration while i meditate, i haven't done many insight practices or took that into my meditation sessions.

I also understand that Buddha taught about how samatha and vipassana complement each other, it makes total sense, i don't think i have a problem of understanding the core concept. The problem i'm facing is that i'm not too sure when or how should i apply each. I guess it comes natural.

But my samatha meditation kinda hit a wall as i explained, so....if i understood you correctly, it may be time for me to slowly switch gears and start to practice insight, right?

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

Ian And — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:16:17 GMT

M S:

Thank you very much for your clear answer.

You're welcome.

M S:

Now, i think i was not very clear on this, but i can get to the point of "no thoughts" and only mind very quick if i want to, i only have to follow my breath for some minutes, sometimes even less and i'm there, like the mind just understands what needs to be done already. But after that i either lost concentration and eventually go back to the breath, or i shift the focus into the pleasant sensation.

The problem is that perhaps my concentration is not as strong, so i can't stay much with this pleasant sensation. That time i guess i could, and so i managed to enter some sort of absorption/jhana like you said. I understand what you said about the experience wouldn't be the same though, i was not actually trying to recreated it, i expressed myself the wrong way, i was just following the same path to keep advancing.

You see, this is the point at which having someone experienced there to help guide you comes in very handy. And, yes, I understand that you do not have access to anyone at the moment. This is why a lot of the literature out there about this tends to take it slow when making recommendations about what to do next.

If you are able to reach the point of "no thoughts" rather quickly, then you may want to learn (become more adept at) how to maintain and sharpen your concentration (samadhi) through the practice of absorption (jhana). Learning this skill will be beneficial when you eventually incline the mind toward insight practice. In other words, it will help you to be able to maintain your focus and attention on the subject at hand (for example, like the three characteristics of the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness of phenomena) so that insight is able to arise during your practice.

The way the Buddha taught it in the suttas, calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana) go hand in hand together. That is, they can be used together, one after the other, in learning about how to bring the mind to liberation. There is a very good essay about this that I would recommend your reading titled One Tool Among Many, The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice, and in it Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes the following point: "Samatha and vipassana were used together to master jhana and then — based on jhana — were developed even further to give rise to the end of mental defilement and to bring release from suffering. This is a reading that finds support in other discourses as well." Reading and understanding these concepts will help to provide you with a conceptual foundation on which to build your practice.

This can all become somewhat confusing regarding what to do next, if you don't have and maintain a good foundation based upon the path itself: that is, the noble eightfold path. Read this book and understand it (if you haven't already) in order to get a clearer picture of what you are attempting to accomplish. Treading this path is your map to the ending of sorrow, unhappiness, and suffering.

As far as your meditation practice is concerned, become more familiar with the phenomena that arise by just watching what comes up in the mind. Watch how the mind moves from one phenomenon to another. If something is going on in your life, and you are being challenged by greed, aversion (hatred), jealousy or whatever else may arise, use your meditation session to just stand back and watch what the mind is doing and how ideas/thoughts arise and pass away. Becoming familiar with this mental process is what begins to lessen and then subsequently to do away with altogether the ignorance that is at root the cause of dissatisfaction (dukkha). If you take things one step at a time and learn how to master each one as best as you are able, you will be able to gradually root out the mental defilements and delusions that cause dissatisfaction.

Counterpart sign?

Stian Gudmundsen Høiland — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 02:17:23 GMT

Hi, I'm very new here, and this evening I had my first abnormal meditation experience.

I've not been doing any previous meditation worth mentioning, but I have done some very uninformed mindfulness of breathing in the past. The last few months have been spent absorbed in goal-oriented teaching and I've finally gotten to the point where I feel comfortable with my understanding.

Tonight I sat down with the wish of entering the first jhana (as far as I know, the first samatha jhana) with virtually no previous experience. This was a very sincere wish and was based on and the fact that I have been lead to believe, through reading and self examination, that I am a Dark Night yogi, have been so for quite some time, and have good concentration skills otherwise.

After having read O, so many times that the trick, initially, is to "follow the breath", I decided to do that with the resolve of a maniac. I found myself so determined that if the house suddenly caught fire, I would say to myself: "I don't have time for that. I need to follow my breath!". Strange things started to happen - for the first time I might add - but I will be brief and keep to the highlight:

At some point, after having exerted a certain (in the way of "angle", "strength" and "duration" - if it helps) form of "pressure" or effort on what I perceived as a point of contact of the breath (not really confined to some bodily place, but maybe "behind" my face somewhere), I had a very intense feeling rise from the bottom of my spine and up to my head. It was a white, puffy/fluffy, cloudy kind of energy. I was caught very off guard by this and thought something along the lines of: "Bullshit. This is impossible, this ain't happening - not with so little practice!". Also because of this surprise, I can see in retrospect that I tried to categorise the feeling/experience so that it would correspond with the feelings of the first jhana. Of course I see now that this thinking was totally wrong to do and, probably as a consequence of this, the feeling/experience ended and I was not able to conjure it up again.

After this there was a lot of thinking "what is different", "what happened" and the like, but I'm pretty sure I can say that, following this, it was easier to keep with the breath.

My question is if this experience was the counterpart sign or something else. I am reluctant calling it anything else because it seems utterly crazy to think it was something "higher/deeper", even despite my enormous craving for deliverance. If needed, I can explain more about the other strange things that happened.

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

M S — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:14:58 GMT

Thank you very much for your clear answer.

I've never went into trying to label experiences until i've read that many of the jhanas and absortion details were actually very similar to what i have been experiencing. So i got curious and actually surprised that there is a map for these experiences. Most teachings kinda leave you in the dark, plus i don't have access to a proper real teacher...

Now, i think i was not very clear on this, but i can get to the point of "no toughts" and only mind very quick if i want to, i only have to follow my breath for some minutes, sometimes even less and i'm there, like the mind just understands what needs to be done already. But after that i either lost concentration and eventually go back to the breath, or i shift the focus into the pleasant sensation. The problem is that perhaps my concentration is not as strong, so i can't stay much with this pleasant sensation. That time i guess i could, and so i managed to enter some sort of absortion/jhana like you said. I understand what you said about the experience wouldn't be the same though, i was not actually trying to recreated it, i expressed myself the wrong way, i was just following the same path to keep advancing.

So my new doubt is what now, and if i should keep practising this until i get better at my samatha practise, or perhaps just moving into insight practice while on this "no thought" stage. But if i can't concentrate enough on the pleasant sensation, i doutbt i will have enough for insight practices...

Thanks for your advice, they are very valuable!

RE: First Samatha Jhana?

Ian And — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:44:50 GMT

M S:

My question basically was regarding if i entered the first jhana or not. I mostly do concentration/samatha meditation, actually this time i was doing anapanasati.

As i began to develop a very strong concentration with the breath to the point it almost disappeared (well not really, but the effort of concentration sort of ceased completely and it was only mind) i've moved into a pleasant body sensation as it's usually suggested. In this session, my hands had a good feeling so i went with that. After some time the sensation started to grow steadily. Eventually i've started to get a feeling of bliss and joy that grew intensively very quickly, until it sort of exploded and took over, like i was witnessing and experiencing something that was out of control.

This experience itself was like true happiness, i related it to something i may have experienced as a child, pure joy and bliss, total freedom. I have to admit that it even got me a little aroused, not with sexual thoughts of course, but it felt like a whole body orgasm (just trying to put the experience into words). I finished my session but the feeling and mindset stayed with me for some hours (even a day or two i would say) with less intensity though.

I've tried to recreate this a couple of times (perhaps that was the problem). However, i've only got to the point of reaching the pleasant sensation focusing part, but it never grew into this full blown experience again.

Without having personal contact with you in order to gain more clarification, the description given is certainly one that could be taken to be absorption. It may be that you progressed to the fourth jhana, where the breath seems to disappear and the mind becomes extremely still. If so, what you will need to learn to do is to not become overwhelmed by these experiences and to apply equanimity toward them so as not to become too attached to them. Such experiences are useful, though not in their own right, but rather in the light that they create the ground necessary (a stability of mental focus and attention) useful for the mind to make further realizations through the arising of insight.

More important than this first experience with absorption should be the realization that this was likely a one-time event in terms of some of the phenomena that you experienced. In other words, you may not experience it in quite the same way the next time around. You'll still probably be able to experience the pleasant bodily sensations, although they likely won't be as explosive as they were this first time. Begin to focus on your ability to bring the mind to concentration (samadhi) at will, as this will assist you in further progress.

As your practice is able to become more mature, the stillness and unification of the mind itself should become more meaningful as you make progress toward realizing the truth of the Dhamma. Meaning that all the bells and whistles that went off this first time, while fleetingly interesting, are not the point that you are ultimately in search of. The ending of the ignorance of the mind — the cessation of greed, hatred, and delusion — is more important than any bells and whistles that may go off. The cessation of the identification with dukkha (the ability to actually do this) is equivalent to the attainment of nibbana.

First Samatha Jhana?

M S — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 07:30:16 GMT

Hello, i'm new here!

I've been meditating and studying buddhism for more than five years. I've read MCTB and it was great, a little too advanced for me in some parts so i can't really comment on that yet.

My question basically was regarding if i entered the first jhana or not. I mostly do concentration/samatha meditation, actually this time i was doing anapanasati. As i began to develop a very strong concentration with the breath to the point it almost dissapeared (well not really, but the effort of concentration sort of ceased completely and it was only mind) i've moved into a pleasant body sensation as it's usually suggested. In this session, my hands had a good feeling so i went with that. After some time the sensation started to grow steadily. Eventually i've started to get a feeling of bliss and joy that grew intensively very quickly, until it sort of exploded and took over, like i was witnessing and experiencing something that was out of control.

This experience itself was like true happiness, i related it to something i may have experienced as a child, pure joy and bliss, total freedom. I have to admit that it even got me a little aroused, not with sexual thoughts of course, but it felt like a whole body orgasm (just trying to put the experience into words). I finished my session but the feeling and mindset stayed with me for some hours (even a day or two i would say) with less intensity though.

I've tried to recreate this a couple of times (perhaps that was the problem). However, i've only got to the point of reaching the pleasant sensation focusing part, but it never grew into this full blown experience again.

Anyway, if anybody had a similar experience or any other advanced meditators can help identify this stage, that would be great, thanks!

ps : sorry for my english!

RE: Unconditional Looooove...

Bruno Loff — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 10:02:15 GMT

Dude some pretty intense and strong things happen when one meditates, and one is liable to feel a lot of things. Strong feelings often ignite little stories in our minds, which then inflame into full-fledged hallucinations (such as love emanating from someone else).

I suggest you just really enjoy it like you would fireworks and make no bigger fuss about it than you would with fireworks.

Unconditional Looooove...

Donal Quirke — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 21:22:01 GMT

I'm wondering about an exeperience i had several years ago whilst chatting with a teacher. We were chatting casually,
when suddenly I felt something sorta spin in my mind. How I describe it was as if I were cycling a bike with gears, and the chain
slipped, and suddenly i'm peddling more quickly. Then what I guess is referred to as 'my mask' began to melt away. About
one foot out from me. Something just faded away, and then I was filled with an experience of what i can only describe as unsonditional love. Suddenly a love filled me, a love in which i realised that no matter what i might do in my existence, this
love would never deny me. Simply no act, terrible as though it might be, this love would always accept me. Then, in my imagination i was taken to a cliff edge and shown that my true self was to be found far below in a valley. A long journey away. Next a deep existential fear began to rise within me. Of the nature of being stuck on this planet hurtling through space.
I realised that there are deep existential fears within me, that can only be faced into through the strength and support of this love that i was experienceing.... At the same time as all this is going on inside of me, another part of my brain is going: "Pull yourself
together". I was aware that i'd suddenly fallen silent and the teacher was looking at me. I was quite self conscious. I did feel as though the love was coming through him, but he seemed unaware of this. Part of me was thinking, he thinks i've gone mad.
So i got myself unstuck, wanted to give the teacher a hug, but all i could say to him was that he was a good man, and that i needed to go...

Any ideas what that was all about?

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

Florian Weps — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 20:08:13 GMT

Hi Neem,

yeah, interesting. Could have been one of those "near miss" experiences, or just becoming more aware of the process where the mind starts to get ready to move on to something else, which it wants to hide from you. I spent a long time playing peek-a-boo with my mind there, and I think that was highly useful, trying to be aware all the way through this transition.

Regarding "getting the knack"; I was convinced I just had to do something right, and was reading and re-reading the many excellent threads here at DhO and over at KFDh, looking for that one crucial hint. And that was a very good thing to do, too, and I learned such a lot. But in the end, really, it was not a matter of "getting it just right".

Of course, my effort played a major role, obviously, but that was just "my" half of the deal (including, to no small percentage, giving myself permission to do this). There is that enigmatic "other", that larger perspective, or grace, or however you want to conceptualize it, and before the thing can resolve, both sides have to consent (or however you want to conceptualize it).

How to put this into practice? Well, following Hokai's descriptions on the "getting it done" Hurricane Ranch discussion, I'd push really hard and as far as I could go, into 4th jhana, into equanimity - then I'd drop the state (like really, stop it, cut it off, exit the jhana, or do something jarring such as note gross sensations), renounce it, or think of Hokais image of ranks upon ranks of Buddhas watching my "feeble attempts" graciously - and then I'd just see what happened, what the "other side" would do with it, or "let it ring", as Daniel put it in that recording, as I understood him. It takes equanimity to do that, to let the nice refined state crash and fall apart, to give it away like that, renounce it, stop the conservation and maintenance of it.

Slightly poetically, I'd push against that wall with all I had, noting, jhana, synching up, whatever, then release all that effort and let the wall push back until, one day, balance emerged. Notice that in this image, there is no knack to balancing against the wall, it's kind of self-evident once it happens.

Good luck, and practice well.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

neem nyima — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 16:23:31 GMT

Just reading your thread and the, the Florian helicopter one. And I took out a few moments, maybe two half hours sits or so.
And i had a really strange experience, one that I suspect has been described elsewhere on a thread, but was unique to my experience. I thought I'd discuss it as a precursor to a few questions on the topic of equanimity? that I've been trying to f[put up on the but the site wont let me.

Any way, first I was reading some stuff Tarin and Florian were saying about the 3rd and 4th jhana and how they can help, and I'd sort of forgotten how I saw it, cause of been buzzing off on insight so much lately. The descriptions they were making didn't make alot of sense to my experience, so a sat and tried to have a clear experience of 3rd and 4th jhana. Any way remembered pretty quickly how I see it when I started to do it. Stuff like awareness of sounds around and the vibrational body and spaciousness then moved into equanimity and notice a really smooth vibrational quality that often accompanies 4th jhana and nana got really peaceful and spacious, further away from the bodily features associated with the 3rd jhana. had to push insight away or shift the attention of unpleasant sensations into pleasure to deepen the peace.
I finished that and started doing some more reading for another half an hour before getting back into and other session, something sparked me can't remember what.
So was think I'd focus more on formlessness and insight in jhana, I was thinking about some off that stuff Tarin likes to go on about that i really like to do with noting the space, emptiness and movements of the self, I sort of know what he means but cant put it into words as well or make up lists off the top of my head.
Any way got really deep into equanimity, felt quite formless but not totally- that's it, Tarin was also saying something about the vibrations in equanimity and how they don't pulse out of sync with the mind and that's why they appear smooth. as I'd just had that really smooth vibrational experience that accompanies 4th nana I thought hey I'll take a look at that. So I'm doing insight, getting into the space, formlessness, no space, soft fast smooth vibrations, and really deep peace, as well as keeping an eye out at these smooth vibes.
When, this pressure starts building up in my head, similar to the warm feeling in your head before you faint and a internal perception of the void collapsing and expanding at the same time, i mean there was a spaciousness to the collapsing quality, but the feeling of fainting and the warm flush in my head chest and belly made me feel like I was falling asleep or fainting, and even though I was deeply in relaxed equanimity there was a fear but an energy off fear, so I pulled out of it instinctively, and realised I wasn't sleepy or falling and was sitting up quite straight.
So, I recall reading about people having these moments, sort of pre-collapse moments, before they get the knack for it to allow it to happen.
Sort of thought it might be that, though it's sort of a bit to good to be true, so any way I'll just take it as it comes and maybe try to meditate a bit more.
Thinking to myself even if I contrived the experience from known the maps, then I tricked myself.

So that's my share Neem

RE: Splitting

Cul Godfrey — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 04:28:57 GMT

"the sensation in the center of my forehead begins dividing, or splitting, into two pulsating sensations that traverse across my forehead and come to rest at my temples."

Mason, I'm new here too. I do not have an answer for you, but I've had a very similar experience. In my case, it feels like my 3rd eye gets sucked in and then turns inside out. I imagine a rubber membrane folding in and flipping around--or something splitting and slaying. I asked a Sri Lanka monk/meditation teacher about this and other experiences. He said, "I can't help you. It's as if you are at a 2nd grade level and are seeking advice from a PhD student."

Sheesh, am I glad to have found Ingram's book and website!

Nice to meet you.

~CG

Splitting

Mason Aguilar — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 01:01:39 GMT

Hi,
I'm new to the DhO and very much appreciate the members feedback from what i have skimmed. I started concentration meditation about a year and a half ago through a practice with a friend and went to a zen center later on on a school field trip. After the zen center I used breath as my primary object of concentration and practiced every day for a few hours. I felt i was going nowhere and I was a bit dogmatized to my own intellect at the time and kept chasing my own tail, not wanting to hear others advise. Anyways... Lately i've picked up again and during my practice about an half hour to an hour into it i start feeling the breath through my whole body with the whole of my mind and the sensation in the center of my forehead begins dividing, or splitting, into two pulsating sensations that traverse across my forehead and come to rest at my temples. The sensations on either side simultaneously grow stronger with each breath in and dim with the breath out. The sensation in the center of my head re-appears and pulses with the sensations at my temples and I feel a sense of unity and emptiness, like I am completely hollow. It's a very pleasant experience, just would like to know what it may be.

RE: Where am I?

Beoman Beoman — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:51:56 GMT

Florian Weps:

Hmm it may well be.. my only issue with that is that I don't feel like I've gotten into the first jhana.. although maybe that calm spacey feeling is it. I'll have to read thru MCTB's description of the stages again.

Florian Weps:

Daniel has this big poster-sized table of the map at his site, interactivebuddha.com, really condensed, with separate columns for width of focus and feeling-tone and so on. Those (in my case, particularly quality of focus, "energy" sensations and concentration ability) are pretty good indicators.

Keep a diary, if you like. Some patterns become more obvious looking back.

Oo I think I found it. Pretty nifty - will have to look at it more closely! I feel part of the problem w/ the MCTB is that the descriptions are so verbose that it's hard to get the major points from each one and remember them long enough to compare to what I experienced.

A diary sounds like a good idea, too. Thx for the advice!

RE: New experience last night

Richard B — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 05:14:36 GMT

Ian And:

As you begin to become more adept at reaching such states at will and are able to integrate insight practice, you will appreciate the ability you have developed to be able to center the mind on a subject (or object, as the case may be) in unification on that subject in order to learn more about it. This is the point where "contemplation" becomes more than just another word — meaning it takes on real palpable significance. Especially if you have been reading about (or thinking about) the subject matter before meditating.

Thanks! I'm starting to see what you mean. I looked at the Insight thread and saw some interesting techniques from Florian that I tried. I really noted as much as possible including positive, neutral, and unpleasant. Here are the main differences in my experience:

- My eyes at times rolled back and I felt a mental expanse. Of course I noted it along with everything else. Noting sometimes made it stronger
- When I got lost in thought it was different than in concentration. In concentration I don't notice the line between awareness and being lost in thought as much. This time when I was lost in thought I snapped out of it quicker but it felt more like I was dreaming and then just woke up except it wasn't like in normal sleep and I wasn't nodding off. I was aware of being awake but just lost in thought. I can feel that blip between awareness and lost in thought (which reminded me more of dreaming).
- When I was done I felt so much energy that I could meditate much longer. With pure concentration it feels like it requires more effort to go more than 1 hour. I did a walking meditation afterwards which had some of that floating, jerky feeling movement of the "Cause and Effect" stage.
- After opening my eyes in the sitting meditation it was a little blurry but I noticed that my back and jaw were sore which dovetails what Daniel points out in his book:

There may be odd bodily twistings, obsession with posture, and painful tensions or strange other sensations, particularly in the back, neck, jaw and shoulders.

- There also was a little emotional discomfort almost like an aversion to this mindset and a comfortableness in being as per usual which is the opposite I felt during this sitting meditation. So I suppose that's a taste to come.

RE: Diagnostics welcome

Sean Lindsay — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 04:20:51 GMT

Thanks for the thoughts. I understand your post to be that you read the experiences I've asked about as one or more sideline to the harder work of vipassana. On reflection I think that's likely right, though sometimes the condition seems to arise in vipassana itself -- typically in the process of raising the noting frequency to 3-5 things per second. I had shifted my practice to concentration after the prior opening experience that seemed to manifest a much strong concentration control than I'd had previously. So I thought that perhaps developing concentration would enable me to resume vipassana work with greater abilities than I had on the first path.

But even so, I recognize that I have been avoiding reinitiating committed vipassana practice in order to avoid dark nighting myself right now. But that seems to have failed, anyway, as I seem to be showing the basic signs: disillusionment with practice, getting stalled in vipassana, clear dreams of wandering around for a while before I realize where I am: in a prison, that sort of thing.

So I'll reemphasize vipassana for the next several months.

RE: Where am I?

Florian Weps — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:19:07 GMT

Quite a few interesting experiences there. A rule of thumb: spiritual rollercoaster without brakes, lucid dreams, wireframe frogs (trippy! I got a green rotating wireframe skull once), bright lights, energetic sensations flowing upwards: a&p. (Insert boilerplate warning about dark night following a&p like thunder following lightning).

Daniel has this big poster-sized table of the map at his site, interactivebuddha.com, really condensed, with separate columns for width of focus and feeling-tone and so on. Those (in my case, particularly quality of focus, "energy" sensations and concentration ability) are pretty good indicators.

Keep a diary, if you like. Some patterns become more obvious looking back.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Lucid Dreaming?

Beoman Beoman — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:23:28 GMT

Richard B:

Holy cow! That sounds like a scene in Inception where characters prefer their dream world to the real one.

Yeah I'm sure Inception got some of its material from Lucid Dreaming experiences. I've done it a few times, and mostly done the running-around-excited thing. It is pretty awesome! You can pretty much do whatever you imagine with no consequences, so I can see how that would be alluring. What's also interesting is that a 20 minute nap can seem like it lasted 2 hours if you were lucid the whole time. I've definitely woken up from those well rested, even though I was running around trying to do things.

I'm not that good at controlling it, though. I'll try the more relaxed version next time I lucid dream, see what happens.

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

asaf bartov — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 12:36:18 GMT

yes, for sure,

i wanted someone here to know and tell me what was it, and had the fantasy that there is a textbook answer (and that it was IT) that i'm gonna get.
i get the feeling this isn't the case.

i think i should just go to a vipassana retreat and get new experiences (obviously hopefully, i'm sure getting stuck on having new experiences will bring much suffering!).

any way, even if i wont have a definitive answer, its nice that there is a place like here to talk about this things so i thank you all who worked to help me.

RE: Freed from naming things

J C — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:49:02 GMT

Hi folks,
I've been pre-occupied with other things and haven't checked this site for six months, but just yesterday was contacted by one of the participants here by message, who asked me to make some clarifications on the methodology involved prior to the presumed PCE.

I still feel after a year that that event one year ago, showed how the thought stream separates us off as individuals from the unity that is more real To see the thought stream shut down totally for a couple hours shows the illusion of the self, and thus is to know Unity, Anatta. Some kind of a blessing.

What led up to the PCE: A week long Vipassana retreat(Jack Kornfield Theravadin style), consisting of 45 minute sittings throughout the day focusing on the breath, interspersed with laying down meditations ( in the back of my station wagon in the parkinglot of the retreat center) humming the Gayatri mantra.

Light food intake is pretty important energetically and to aid in meditative practice on retreat. Just have breakfasts, and other than that just some tea and honey the rest of the day.
A week long retreat is pretty important to get down into some serious meditative practice. Try as you may to meditate in your regular life, doing your job, with all the distractions of life, deep meditative practice is almost impossible. There's no substitute for the seclusion on a week long retreat.

J

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

Pavel O. — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:42:03 GMT

Okay, a couple more things. Fruitions are incredibly quick, so much so that it is extremely possible not to notice one. There is a pleasant afterglow which can last a while (especially if it is at the end of the path).

What I meant by a permanent effect is that there will be a noticeable change even after the afterglow goes. This change for me after stream entry was a more direct experiential understanding of the three characteristics, it never went away and deepened with time. If the experience is nothing more than a (profound) memory, it wasn't a fruition and you didn't get a path (IMHO).

There are a couple more things that normally happen after stream entry - stronger concentration, review phase, repeat fruitions, a deeper understanding of what insight is about and how to do it, I think that there are more but can't currently remember.

I can't tell you what the experience was about, what it's called, or what it means, but I can tell you that there is better (and permanent) candy down the road if you decide to take it. All these experiences will keep on happening but it's not about them, as you may find out yourself. At the end of the day, how important is an experience, if it only stays a memory.

Have fun.

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

asaf bartov — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:14:59 GMT

it might be, i dont think i'm the authority, there are too many stages for me to really discern between them effectively, especially as they are sometimes similar.

before that experience i was into Buddhism for about a year.

i dont really know how to ask, but if you really see the process of thought and its emptiness, doesn't it relate to the A&P?

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

Mike Monson — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:26:55 GMT

Since you are a beginner and haven't crossed the A&P yet, doesn't the stage of "mind and body" make sense?
Even the early stages can be quite profound and, of course, life changing.

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

asaf bartov — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:56:42 GMT

i think it does, i remember having a really different perspective to problems. i could understand that every suffering is just an inner dissonance and has no inherent need, and i was quite calm and trying to investigate the new way to look at things.
it surely didn't have any magical or mysterious or satori or something like this in it. i related to it first as some sort of dying experience, giving up everything, and then coming back totally refreshed to the world (the thing is i didn't know if it is temporary or not)

i think that the bad thing about this experience is that after the effect was over (mara crept againg) , i have a hard time not grasping at the experience as a very special thing, although now it really is only a memory.

i didn't had anything i could really relate to as the dark night or the rising and passing away (although i still not so sure what are they exactly) , i don't know if this part makes sense.

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

Pavel O. — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:05:28 GMT

Hey Asaf,

Well, the thing about getting a path is that experientially, it is very much a non-experience, rather than a peak/profound/mystical experience. Also, rather than the (non)experience being of any importance, it is what that experience does to you that counts. I really like the explanation that Florian Welps has been giving, in that a path experience is automatically insight producing. What this means is that after every path, there will be an automatic ability to perceive things as they are with a greater accuracy (permanently and moment-to-moment). Does this fit in with your experience?

RE: What are these waves?

H H — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:41:06 GMT

Thank you everyone for such helpful advice. Ive found all the comments and advice given here to be so incredibly beneficial to my practice. I just finished a short retreat where i re-entered pretty horrific re-observation (as bad as it could get complete with a brief period of what seemed to be psychosis), and then back to low equanimity. I seem to be going back and forth between the two. I think now i just need to practice, ive read a lot of great stuff, but now i just need to do it! Im headed to MBMC in a couple of days to see if that finally gets me to a place where im not constantly falling back to re-observation..

I found those podcasts by Thanissaro Bhikkhu wonderful and helpful.

I will write in more details of my experience, especially my time in re-observation because this may help to ease the minds of others in a similar situation. Its some pretty scary stuff.

Thanks again for all those who have taken the time to help me here.

With Metta

RE: New experience last night

Ian And — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:02:29 GMT

Richard B:

I'll try to make it 1 hour instead of 30 mins because it takes about 20 - 25 min to get somewhere.

Yes. That's a common observation among meditators. Especially beginners to intermediate level practitioners. As one becomes more adept at reaching such states, the time spent getting there becomes less. This is especially true for those who go after absorption attainment.

Richard B:

I don't know if my practice is right but I usually just aim my awareness at dominante sensations and I usually try and feel as much detail as possible with the breath as an anchor from time to time.

That's good as far as it goes. Helps one to become able to establish a baseline of identifying various subtle phenomena. Yet, once one is able to fairly cleanly and regularly establish concentration (samadhi), the next step up the ladder involves insight practice, which can entail satipatthana practice. The four establishments of mindfulness (of the body, feeling, mind states, and dhammas) can help one gain deeper insight into the Dhamma when those teachings are being used as an insight subject.

Richard B:

I think you're right. It's probably a jhana experience, with a little mindfulness to keep the concentration on track. I went for 1 hour and was able to stay concentrated for most of the time and my focus was just on my "third eye" part of my mind and how it felt (pressure) and after the meditation is over I still feel it going. At 1 hour I was seeing more colors and feeling more relaxed in the concentration. I can see now how people can meditate for much longer.

Yes. Your description of the concentrated state you were in is common among adept meditators. Although I wouldn't give too much credence or importance to any "colors" you may see. Treat them as something to let go of. As you begin to become more adept at reaching such states at will and are able to integrate insight practice, you will appreciate the ability you have developed to be able to center the mind on a subject (or object, as the case may be) in unification on that subject in order to learn more about it. This is the point where "contemplation" becomes more than just another word — meaning it takes on real palpable significance. Especially if you have been reading about (or thinking about) the subject matter before meditating.

RE: New experience last night

Richard B — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 02:42:38 GMT

I think you're right. It's probably a jhana experience, with a little mindfulness to keep the concentration on track. I went for 1 hour and was able to stay concentrated for most of the time and my focus was just on my "third eye" part of my mind and how it felt (pressure) and after the meditation is over I still feel it going. At 1 hour I was seeing more colors and feeling more relaxed in the concentration. I can see now how people can meditate for much longer.

Thanks

RE: New experience last night

Richard B — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:14:53 GMT

I'll try to make it 1 hour instead of 30 mins because it takes about 20 - 25 min to get somewhere. I thought I was doing an open meditation with mindful noting of dominate sensations, feelings, thoughts. I don't use words but try and "touch" the experiences. Words usually get me in trouble. I never felt such inertia shooting towards my crown and fine buzz-waves surrounding my skull and penetrating it.

I don't know if my practice is right but I usually just aim my awareness at dominante sensations and I usually try and feel as much detail as possible with the breath as an anchor from time to time.

RE: New experience last night

Ian And — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:07:03 GMT

Richard B:

At this point I started getting an enjoyable wave-buzz all around my head (very new for me). I moved my attention to my hands and it went there as well but not nearly as strong as my skull. I really wanted to move my head up while I was enjoying this. This happened a couple of minutes before the end of my 30 min meditation (I probably should have kept going).

Yes, you probably should have. Not necessarily for the pleasantness of the experience (although that's a nice side benefit), but rather for the buildup of concentration and hence the ability of maintaining contemplation on an object or subject for an extended period of duration. Such states are good for being able to increase the duration of insight contemplation, as well as general mindfulness afterwards.

Richard B:

I then quickly went to sleep but it just kept happening. At this point in my meditation my "watcher" part of my mind is stronger than in the past so when my ego and sub-vocalizing says "Wow that was neat" I don't try to suppress it but continue investigating....

That's good, that you remained aware (mindful). Such experiences will help strengthen what you call the "watcher" part of the mind. I call it strengthening concentration ability. With stronger and stronger concentration ability, you are able to observe phenomena and subjects for extended periods of duration so that you are more able to see them for what they are (i.e. gather insight about them).

Richard B:

I'm not sure if this is a pure jhana experience or a vipassana experience but I like it.

It's hard to say without more background information about your practice, but it may have been the second jhana. The fact that it tended to continue on its own indicates the second absorption, where vitakka and vicara drop away because the mind has become absorbed on its own without the need to manipulate the experience in order to first bring it on.

Keep practicing and keep examining phenomena. It sounds like you're ready for satipatthana practice, if such were your inclination.

RE: like everyone here, what exactly happened?

asaf bartov — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:39:07 GMT

when i said pleasure in thought i mean i noticed the masturbational habits in my process of thought, not having the experience of "the pleasure of thought" as an spiritual experience.

like everyone here, what exactly happened?

asaf bartov — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:35:59 GMT

first of all, i would like to point out that i am a low experirnce practitioner, who never even been in a vipassana retreat. and nor an impressive concentration.

i had an experience i now call "insight" and for the last year have been kinda struggling to understand and maybe even obsessing on.
i hope that maybe you can help me here a little to at least let me know what exactly happened and what should i expect (if anything which is what i do experience regularly).

i had a very distressing experience in my job, and it brought a lot of "self" in me, i just thought about it and my body and mind just ran away from the memory and couldn't handle it.

so a day or two after it i sat down and meditated, and couldn't concentrate, i just tried to look at it, and i dont remember the complete details, but soon enough i was in an other reality - i tapped to my mind stream, and saw directly the process of thought, in which i could see the interconnectedness of the process of thought, and the emptiness of the "i" which i used to relate to.

so at some point i remember to lose all hope, maybe being sick of the entire process, and my mind just restarted.

after experiencing this, i felt enlightened to some extent - i could see the pleasure in thought in a way that i wasn't truly aware of before, and wisdom in much bigger extent.

oh, and another thing, i kinda felt that the falling into nothing used the thought about the experience in work at its base somehow, and after awaking it truly didn't "threaten" me anymore.

after a few days i saw what i call "mara" creeping into my life again, and that was the end of this experience.

anyway, in somewhat different perspective, i shared this experience with a teacher of mine, but he didnt put much attention to it, and i had a big vacuum about it, so i read d. ingram book. and for some time i believed it to be the "fruit / fruition".

i dont really know, but i think i developed a little ego grasp to this, can you tell me if that was really what i think it was? and what consequences i may expect from it? after all a year has passed and i dont have anymore like this.

New experience last night

Richard B — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:22:07 GMT

Okay I started my 30 minute open meditation. I started staying with my breath and then looked for anything standing out. I often like to be aware of how my skin feels or if there is any itching or soreness. Usually at this point I get 3rd eye pressure (always accompanied by feeling sense of the pressure of the sinus cavities, jaw or skull) and I decided to try and make them permanent. Everytime I did the pressure alleviated in the exact area I was trying to make permanent. As I did this throughout my head I felt as if I was feeling more detail and awareness of deep into my head. This actually happened a couple of days ago but with less progress.

At this point I started getting an enjoyable wave-buzz all around my head (very new for me). I moved my attention to my hands and it went there as well but not nearly as strong as my skull. I really wanted to move my head up while I was enjoying this. This happened a couple of minutes before the end of my 30 min meditation (I probably should have kept going). I then quickly went to sleep but it just kept happening. At this point in my meditation my "watcher" part of my mind is stronger than in the past so when my ego and sub-vocalizing says "Wow that was neat" I don't try to suppress it but continue investigating. When I investigated the experience it went away but when I put my head to my pillow and tried to sleep it came back again in pulses of enjoyment.

The best way I can describe this feeling was if you spun around 30 seconds and then stopped you would feel an inertia making you feel like you are still moving. The difference here was I felt that inertia trying to go up and out of my crown even when I was laying down. I'm still buzzing slightly today and feel really energized. I didn't have any shaking and I never felt a loss of the watcher.

I'm not sure if this is a pure jhana experience or a vipassana experience but I like it.

Where am I?

Beoman Beoman — Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:08:41 GMT

I'm curious where I'm at according to the stages of insight. I don't have a burning desire to know at the moment, as I gathered that the general idea at each stage was to keep meditating, and I can still do that daily for now, but it'd be nice to know if I'm going anywhere / doing it right. Sorry this ended up pretty long, but I just wanna put everything out here, try to make sense of some of it. Maybe I'm too obsessed and should just chill =P. But right now I don't know whether:

* I have crossed the A&P.
* I've reached Mind and Body or the first samatha jhana (are they the same thing? not even sure).
* I've gotten to Cause and Effect / Three Characteristics.
* I do noting practice properly.

So I can either place myself as having reached 1st jhana and crossed A&P Event, or not even reached 1st jhana and failing to meditate properly.

---------------

I started meditating this year. Nothing particularly interesting happened before then, except that at some point in high school, I really tried to learn how to lucid dream. Nothing came of it for a few months / a year, but then after that I started having lucid dreams once in a while.

I first started meditating just 8 minutes a day, and that was difficult at first. I would just try to follow my breath, generally be annoyed that I seemed to control it while following it, be impatient, etc. This grew to 10 minutes a day in one sitting, then I started trying to do two 10-minute settings a day.

What got me to continue meditating is that I started noticing things more clearly in daily life. My vision seemed to have improved, except it's not that I saw better, more that I just noticed the trees, the grass, etc., more. It was pretty neat.

What _really_ got me to continue is an experience I had on a cruise ship, 2-3 months after I started meditating. I was reading "The Power of Now" at this point, trying to be in the moment, doing body scans, etc. I was lying in bed one day, listening to some rap, and idly doing a body scan, but not really trying to meditate, when something pretty intense happened. It was like the blackness behind my closed eyes expanded vastly, so it looked 3-dimensional. I was in awe, thinking "wow, there's definitely something to this meditation thing..." I tried sitting up to see what that felt like, and my body was incredibly heavy. At the time I didn't know what it was. Currently, I think maybe I randomly stumbled into the 2nd samatha jhana? I did not have any applied attention at all (lol), actually my pulse started racing cause something really weird was happening, and there were distractions too, like my rap, and it only lasted 5 minutes or so. Anyway, I haven't been able to repeat this experience since.

----------------

Up until about last month I kept doing 20 minutes a day, though not consistently, of either following my breath or trying to do zazen. My visual clarity persisted, and I had days of being in a really good mood for no particular reason. I enjoyed being outside more.

About a month ago I read MCTB. Since then I've been doing 30 minutes a day pretty consistently, sometimes 45 mins, all in one sitting. I'll either focus on my breathing, or try noting. I think I'm noting, anyway - I'll ask that question in another topic. My general perspectives are now:

* I've started paying attention to the three characteristics. Right now, impermanence seems most rationally obvious. It's obvious to me that everything will fade after it arises. Unsatisfactoriness is 2nd - I'll notice how pretty much all my thoughts have to do with me wanting to have done / be doing / do something else in the future. And I think I'm getting some insight into no-self, as I'll notice that sensations, even thoughts, and even desire to do minor things (like swallow, or shift my position slightly) seem to come from nowhere.

* I might be getting a grasp on how there's a mind reflection on anything that happens. For example, I'll sometimes meditate with earplugs and be able to hear my heart beating. I noticed that I was noticing the heart beat as an "up, down, up, down" type noise, and wondered if that's how it actually was. I tried noticing it instead as an even pulse, and then I heard it as an even pulse. So it seems that every pulse I would "hear" and then I would categorize in some other way.

* Recently I'm just sometimes in a fantastic mood. I can see really clearly I feel generally good about everything, my body will feel good. Last Saturday, for example, was interesting. I had a tremendous hangover. My head was intensely in pain on every pulse. I took this opportunity to try to understand the 2nd characteristic better, and for a few moments I could perceive the pain without labeling it as "bad", but that didn't last long as it did hurt quite a lot. But at moments through the worst of it, I could perceive that I was in a "good mood", through the pain =P. I wonder if this could be after-effects of the alcohol from the night before increasing my serotonin levels or something, since a similar mood lift happened another day after I drank... but it has also happened without any drinking a few days before.

And a few "interesting" things have happened while meditating:

* During some meditation sessions, I'll get into a nice calm state. At this point I'll have thoughts like "ah it's really nice being sober" (I would drink every week in college =P). Sometimes the blackness before my eyes will seem to expand a little and shift around, but not as intensely as on the cruise ship. It feels pretty cool. I think this has happened both during noting and concentrating. I'm not sure if this is 1st jhana or not, cause I can still lose my concentration and get lost in thoughts for a few seconds at a time and still be in it.

* Some sessions I can kind of feel my body pulsing. Not pulsing in the sense of feeling my pulse, but pulsing like it expands + contracts slightly.

* Some sessions my left & right halves of my body do feel a bit different.. mostly I'll notice tension/pain on different parts of my body. A few times I felt I could alternate my attention between my left and right half, and notice each one pulsing separately.

EDIT: * A few times, after some night sessions, when I laid down to go to sleep afterwards, I would definitely see very fast white flickering behind my closed eyes. It wasn't very bright, and would fade quickly, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from the outside. One time I covered my eyes after they faded, and they were still there, just fainter. I kept following them, and they turned into a pretty neat 3D hallucination of white wireframed frogs rotating / moving about slowly.

* At some point during most sessions I start to visually hallucinate mildly. These are exactly the same hallucinations I get when I'm falling asleep, though, so I haven't thought too much of them. They're the type of seeing sheets of colors fading in and out, mostly blue, some green, etc. If they start happening, I'll try noting them.

* One of my noting sessions was really, really intense. I think I sat down in a somewhat agitated mental state, so that contributed to it, but I felt like I had a "grip" on my thoughts. I mean that a few times a second, random thoughts would begin to form about what I was doing / whatever I was thinking about, but I would notice it was a thought and it would stop a few milliseconds after I noticed it. This continued for a bit, and then eventually slowed way down. Right after it slowed down, I noticed three quick mild flashes of white light. HOWEVER, I'm not sure that was from my mind or an actual light from the outside. I didn't have my blinds down, and had my eyes closed but uncovered, and I noticed that sometimes I'll think I'm seeing a light from my mind, but when I open my eyes there's just a car passing by my window or something. Since I started meditating with an eye cover, I haven't seen any flashes.

* One other instance, I was noting pretty slowly, generally relaxed, when it felt like my mind started speeding up without me. I started noting faster, and at some point I felt a strange sensation. It was similar to the blackness expanding, but kind of directional too, like it was going upwards and to the side a little.

EDIT: One last thing, since MCTB mentions this particularly. Yesterday my friend mentioned he had a lucid dream. I haven't had one in a bit, so I was like "Ah that would be fun." I thought it would be neat to try to meditate during it and see what effect that has, since MCTB mentions meditation during lucid dreams. Luckily enough, this morning I became lucid, and tried to meditate. First I just followed my breathing a bit, then I tried doing a microcosmic orbit. The latter had a pretty powerful effect. I could feel something at each of the points, but so much so that it was painful, and my dream-body would twitch at each one. I didn't meditate for long. However, after I was done, I probably had the clearest and most well-controlled one ever. I could make mini-volcanoes rise out of the ground, and shoot electricity in a wide radius from my hands. I couldn't fly too effectively, unfortunately =(.

Well, that's probably an exhaustive list of what's been happening the last month or so. My specific questions are:

* Was the void thing: A&P Event, 1st jhana, 2nd jhana, something else?
* Was the sudden mental speeding up: A&P Event?
* Is the calm state: Mind & Body? 1st jhana?

And my general one is, of course: Where am I at?

I've read the progress of insight in MCTB, but I feel like something from each of the early stages may or may not apply to me, and I can't be sure. I also am not sure whether you start from 1st stage every time you meditate, and have to cross A&P and beyond in 1 sitting, or if you don't regress once you've reached a certain stage (like dark night maybe?). I've heard descriptions both ways ("I've been in the dark night these past 3 years" or "so I went through mind&body, then cause&effect, then 3 chars, then a&p event crossing, then through dark night to equanimity, yesterday while on the cushion").

RE: Cushion Report: Stories and Thoughts

Bruno Loff — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:47:41 GMT

Woah, it all sounds familiar.

In my second long retreat, one of the problems I had was drifting away from meditation into stories. Although there wasn't any specific issue that made them very compelling, they were still coming on strong.

In fact having decided to "catch" the moment when the mind drifts away was important for progress, as it was then that my practice started focusing on the middle of the head (I've wrote to you about this before!). For me, the "place" where the mind begins to drift is in right in the center of the brain --- there is a sort of shift, a sort of active manipulation of thoughts and intentions which happens there, it is as if the thought train was actively put out of phase with conscious attention. It is in this very same place that craving and aversion seem to happen for me right now, it is where the mind tries to hold onto things. And it was a release in that area which caused stream entry and now second path.

Tarin's advice makes sense for me, if at some point you can walk without all that pain then it is probably a good idea. There is something about walking back and forth, having to turn around, that brings one back to the job at hand without fuss or frustration. It was during walking meditation that I first caught the mind-drifting mechanism.

Keep going and take care!

RE: Early results

Daniel Johnson — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 03:02:35 GMT

Victor Cova:

or a Goenka.

Hey Victor,
For all it's faults, I still love Goenka courses, and it did a hell of a lot for me. Plus I think it's fairly easy to integrate with MCTB.

I don't have much more advice, opinions, or thoughts than that, but good luck to ya.

- Daniel J.

RE: Cushion Report: Stories and Thoughts

Daniel Johnson — Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:52:13 GMT

tarin greco:

how much walking are you doing on these retreats? walking defeats strong story-mode better than does sitting. modify your practice to allow better continuity.

Not a lot of walking. I will try more ways of modifying my practice for my state of mind. Christopher Titmuss gave me similar advice when I was on retreat with him. I have some difficulty however because I get a lot of physical pain and soreness which persists for a long time if I work my body too hard - and for whatever reason, meditative walking seems to be very hard work for my body. I don't know what my pain issues are about, but I'm sorta hoping that whatever it is will eventually pass, or I may just have a lot of pain for the rest of my life. Dunno. I wrote another post on that a couple months ago.

I mostly spend about 10 hours lying down, about 1 hour sitting, and about 1 hour walking, about 1 hour listening to a dharma talk or reading dharma book (usually sitting, but sometimes lying down) and about 1 hour doing some sort of simple work (sweeping, dishes, etc.) Add in 8 hours of sleep, a couple hours of cooking, eating, peeing, showering, etc. and that's a typical retreat day for me. I do some periods as "timed sits" so to speak, where I resolve to sit/lie/walk for 40 minutes or whatever, but mostly I just wing it as I go.

I did more sitting and walking a couple weeks back and I found it very hard to go to work the next day (where I need my physical strength for my job)

Chris - thanks for the comments.

RE: Early results

Victor Cova — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:39:44 GMT

Something I forgot to mention, jhanawise it seems from all the descriptions I've read that I can reach at least a weak 1st Jhana fairly easily and a stronger one with more effort, as well as a weak 2nd jhana: When I concentrate on the breath as this one thing that's moving about, or for instance when I do standing meditation and think about being a mountain, fairly rapidly now I start feeling a build up in my abdomen of something shapeless but pressing and almost like frustration, until I concentrate on it and it goes up to my head, feels like a sort of weak orgasm, with a huge smile on my face and wanting to laugh, and if I want I can continue feeding it and making it bigger, which makes me start breathing deep and fast and hold my head up high, but always with a strong tension between my eyes, or I can focus on relaxing this tension and I get a much lighter and relaxed feeling still with a big grin. However after a while this also gives way, the "bliss" feels strained and everything relaxes even more and I return to a more neutral point. I can't say whether this neutral point is equanimity, but I doubt so, or only in a very very weak form. It seams more like retreating than advancing...

Oh, and I'm 23 now.

As with before, comments, advice and questions appreciated, but the even the effort of reading the whole thing really...

Victor

RE: Cushion Report: Stories and Thoughts

tarin greco — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:49:08 GMT

how much walking are you doing on these retreats? walking defeats strong story-mode better than does sitting. modify your practice to allow better continuity.

RE: Cushion Report: Stories and Thoughts

C T K — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:01:29 GMT

Awesome report on an awesome amount of effort and diligence. That you were able to stick to a 2-day self-retreat in the midst of a Big Issue flare-up is a good sign of your commitment, and coupled with the insights and breakthroughs in concentration it sounds like a "successful" retreat (I use quotes because I think any serious, skillful efforts made to attain awakening is a success in some sense, but of course it's nice psychologically to feel accomplished, though that can be dicey in and of itself...but anyway...).

Daniel Johnson:

I noted how even when I wasn't in the stories, there was still some sort of excuse like "well, I can't meditate because of all these stories." ha! I noted a very very strong sense of self/identity wrapped up in the stories. And actually, perhaps this was the most profound discovery of the retreat was discovering this very very solid sense of self that was maintained through and by the stories. I never even knew there was a sense of self there, but Wow!

Looking now in retrospect: (and with some greater perspective)
It seems clear that there was indeed a strong identity being challenged by the attempt to come out of these story patterns which I didn't even know where there and probably wouldn't have known were there if Big Issue hadn't blown up on me. So, in some ways, it seems like it was some very important work to begin the process of identifying the sensations which make up Big Issue and all the stories about it and all the reactions to the stories about it. It felt like the few moments of real sensate awareness were very de-stabilizing to these story loops which were very strong and mostly unconscious. And, it felt like there were some pretty strong defenses against that kind of destabilization - a very strong resistance to the impermanent, out of control, unsatisfactory nature of what was really going on. The words "I hate reality" came out at least a few times.

Sounds so familiar - I think these are great insights!

Daniel Johnson:

In fact, perhaps I can attempt to describe something cool that happened. There were a few moments where my resolve kicked in on high, and my attention went straight to sensations and it was like a one of those drill bit truck tunneling machines just drilling straight into the heart of the present moment with just complete disregard for whatever the so-called "content" of that moment was. Like, if the story was a flowing, moving structure from past to future with all sorts of thoughts... this quality of attention came in and literally drilled a whole directly into the structure of it centered right on the present moment.

Pretty cool when this happens. I was just reflecting on how my concentration sometimes does that as well - a great relief after a struggle with unconsciousness or cloudy concentration or what have you!

Daniel Johnson:

I was disappointed that I didn't make it into the more "frontier" territory that I had been working on in prior weeks (High Equanimity) or that I came no where near to stream entry. But, I noted: Disappointment, disappointment, pain, pain, etc.

Seems like the best way to deal with it, even though it sucks. When I backslid moving to Chicago I was disappointed in some ways (though really I was too heavy in Dark Night to feel disappointment -- I was overwhelmed with fear, misery, disgust, etc!). But as I've been told by Florian and many others have mentioned, it seems that the backsliding is part of the process once one initially reaches Equanimity. And sure enough, a few days after making it here I got back up to equanimity (my best guess, of course ... but definitely equanimous compared to the first few days!).

Daniel Johnson:

Overall:
I think I could say that I had a very visceral experience of how much suffering is involved in living life as an imaginary story.

I also wish this had been a longer retreat as I think it could have been very interesting to see this all unfold over a couple more days. Right now, as I type, having broken the container of the retreat, I feel remarkably much more free from the story loops, and much more present to the sensations of my fingers on the keyboard, the sounds of the striking keys, the birds singing outside my window, the soft green light reflected off the leaves of the trees outside. The sight of falling leaves drifting down through the branches. My breath coming in, going out. etc. What a wild ride.

And, yet, there also seems to be some sort of denial that seems to be a lingering of the luminous enthusiastic puppy dog energy. Like, there is still a sorta pull of not wanting to look back, not wanting to examine experience, but rather wanting to indulge in the content with a sorta reckless enthusiasm and restlessness.

And, also I'm noticing how from one perspective, it kinda seems like "whoa... what a ride, that was crazy and fucked up and it sucked."... but then from another perspective it just seems like: "whatever dude... it was just a bunch of sensate experience, stop making such a big deal out of it."

Anyway, that's what happened as best I can describe it. I'm not sure how accurate my report is, but I tried to stick to the facts anyway.

Sounds like all good stuff. Good to hear you're balancing yourself out as best as you can, something I definitely strive to do as well (and I guess everyone else on this ride).

Anyway, naturally I have no advice for you myself but I just wanted to comment for solidarity's sake.

Keep at it!

-Chris

Cushion Report: Stories and Thoughts

Daniel Johnson — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:11:38 GMT

So, I just finished another two day retreat at home with the intention to attain stream entry as soon as possible by means of insight meditation. Here's my report...

Before the retreat started:
A Big Issue blew up in my life, and created a lot of agitation in my mind going in - both "positive" thoughts about Big Issue (love, craving, fantasy, joy...) and "negative" thoughts (brooding, aversion, resentment, trying to figure it out...)

Most of the retreat was spent dipping in and out of thoughts and storylines about Big Issue. I read through some of MCTB where it states: "The big message here is: drop the stories, find a physical object like the breath or body or pain or pleasure or whatever, and look into the Three Characteristics precisely and consistently!" etc. etc.

I had a very difficult time seeing stories as stories, let alone being able to "drop" them. It occurred much more like the stories were reality, and the breath/body etc. were insignificant details within the stories. I noted: stories, thinking, planning, fantasizing, looping, rehearsing, content, etc.

As I practiced:
I still found the stories very sticky, and that they would drop me very much unconscious while I was in them. With this I noted: stickiness, frustration and anger at myself for going unconscious, conflict, attempts to control my mind, etc. I was unable to notice the "dragged away" moment when the stories would begin, but was able to notice more the "coming back" moments when I returned from storyland. Coming back usually looked like this: moment of present moment awareness, realization of "lost in story", some very quick sensation like a cringe (the pain of knowing that I'm not acting in line with my resolve), often some sensations of self-flogging, some moments of trying to control attention, then often a sense of feeling lost or confused. At this point, I was sometimes noting all of this with more or less precision, or I was slipping back into the story, or I was recentering on a physical object like body or breath.

I spent a lot of time (when not in stories) doing body scans (Goenka style) to stay grounded in breath. But, again, I still had the sense that the body was just a small insignificant detail in a larger much more important Story! Oh, what a mind!

I also had very very strong memories arising - more vivid and realistic than any memories I've ever had in the past. The memories usually contain bright lucid imagery, and a full body sensation of actually being there in that moment. Often there was also a sense of craving attached, like a stickiness, although I can't say that there was any real sense of wanting to go back to those places and times in my life. More of a pre-programmed craving.

For Day 1, I went easy on it, having lots of acceptance for the story trains. I didn't have any sense of where I was in insight... but I sorta went on the assumption not to underestimate the Dark Night. I spent a lot of time noting: suffering, suffering.

I also investigated into the energy of the agitation which had a sort of luminous enthusiasm to it. It was almost like an ADHD puppy dog. Like when a dog can't help but sniff at someone's butt compulsively, this was the compulsiveness of the sorta luminous awareness which compulsively wanted to engage these storylines.

On Day 2, I continued in my attempts to be simply with the sensations of each moment as they arise. And, perhaps at this point I did begin to underestimate the power of the Dark Night. By late in Day 2, I was very wound up in what seemed like very nearly a psychotic break from reality. My body was somewhat contorting and there was a very strong impossibleness of being in every moment - like impossible to be, and impossible not to be. I had some faith that this was practice-induced and that it would likely go away when I stopped practicing, but I also was concerned that there might be bleed-through into my work and life if I pushed it any further. So, on the evening of day 2, I decided to break the retreat a little early by engaging in some mindless entertainment for an hour or two. Although I didn't really find it entertaining much, I was somewhat able to relax my mind out of the psychosis-like state.

Then, I noted the entire process of the decision-making process (should I keep going or not?). I noted the commentator/narrator who was telling the story of my retreat as it was happening. I noted: excuses, judgments, conflict, suffering, pain. I noted how even when I wasn't in the stories, there was still some sort of excuse like "well, I can't meditate because of all these stories." ha! I noted a very very strong sense of self/identity wrapped up in the stories. And actually, perhaps this was the most profound discovery of the retreat was discovering this very very solid sense of self that was maintained through and by the stories. I never even knew there was a sense of self there, but Wow!

Looking now in retrospect: (and with some greater perspective)
It seems clear that there was indeed a strong identity being challenged by the attempt to come out of these story patterns which I didn't even know where there and probably wouldn't have known were there if Big Issue hadn't blown up on me. So, in some ways, it seems like it was some very important work to begin the process of identifying the sensations which make up Big Issue and all the stories about it and all the reactions to the stories about it. It felt like the few moments of real sensate awareness were very de-stabilizing to these story loops which were very strong and mostly unconscious. And, it felt like there were some pretty strong defenses against that kind of destabilization - a very strong resistance to the impermanent, out of control, unsatisfactory nature of what was really going on. The words "I hate reality" came out at least a few times.

In fact, perhaps I can attempt to describe something cool that happened. There were a few moments where my resolve kicked in on high, and my attention went straight to sensations and it was like a one of those drill bit truck tunneling machines just drilling straight into the heart of the present moment with just complete disregard for whatever the so-called "content" of that moment was. Like, if the story was a flowing, moving structure from past to future with all sorts of thoughts... this quality of attention came in and literally drilled a whole directly into the structure of it centered right on the present moment. Like this:

It also became apparent that it was because of the high degree of unconsciousness arising every time I indulged in the stories - it makes sense that I didn't even know any of this was even happening.

I was disappointed that I didn't make it into the more "frontier" territory that I had been working on in prior weeks (High Equanimity) or that I came no where near to stream entry. But, I noted: Disappointment, disappointment, pain, pain, etc.

Overall:
I think I could say that I had a very visceral experience of how much suffering is involved in living life as an imaginary story.

I also wish this had been a longer retreat as I think it could have been very interesting to see this all unfold over a couple more days. Right now, as I type, having broken the container of the retreat, I feel remarkably much more free from the story loops, and much more present to the sensations of my fingers on the keyboard, the sounds of the striking keys, the birds singing outside my window, the soft green light reflected off the leaves of the trees outside. The sight of falling leaves drifting down through the branches. My breath coming in, going out. etc. What a wild ride.

And, yet, there also seems to be some sort of denial that seems to be a lingering of the luminous enthusiastic puppy dog energy. Like, there is still a sorta pull of not wanting to look back, not wanting to examine experience, but rather wanting to indulge in the content with a sorta reckless enthusiasm and restlessness.

And, also I'm noticing how from one perspective, it kinda seems like "whoa... what a ride, that was crazy and fucked up and it sucked."... but then from another perspective it just seems like: "whatever dude... it was just a bunch of sensate experience, stop making such a big deal out of it."

Anyway, that's what happened as best I can describe it. I'm not sure how accurate my report is, but I tried to stick to the facts anyway.

Best,

Daniel

ps. If anyone's interested about the "Big Issue", it was this: my ex-girlfriend came to visit last Monday. We had a long painful break up and then haven't talked much in the last several months. Upon her visit, wouldn't you know it but we started to fall in love again. Thus, there was a mix of love, joy, fantasy, hope, and also bitterness, sadness, resentment, and blame, along with a resulting confusion.

RE: Questions regarding two experiences

tarin greco — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:52:22 GMT

K N:

tarin greco:

both your description of the experience of sound filling the universe and of the experience of what you call 'the rousing' are interesting, and it is easy to understand how those experiences would have had a strong impact on the direction of your concerns. rather than attempt to fit those events to the progress of insight, however, i would prefer to ask what your goals are.. what is it you are looking to do here?

Thanks for your response, Tarin. I want to gain stream entry; that being said, I realize that I'm probably far away from that right now, so that's more of a long-term goal.

and yet, as that is something that happens in the context of your own body and mind, you are ever only as far away as an attention-length from it.

K N:

I've finished reading the first two parts of MCTB (well, my first pass anyway --- I'm sure I'll end up rereading most of it), and based on what I've read so far, it seems that my immediate goal should be to attain the first samatha jhana. Once I can reach that 'base camp' with some confidence, I want to start scaling the mountain of insight.

daniel does mention somewhere in mctb, i believe, that the first samatha (concentration) jhana and first vipassana (insight) jhana are more or less identical.. and insofar as he means a rather soft jhana.

so you may reach that 'base camp' with some confidence and then start scaling the mountain of insight... or you may start scaling that mountain of insight and reach that 'base camp' on the way.

what is your current practice like?

K N:

I want to resolve the 'question' that I've encountered during the experience that I (arbitrarily) named the Rousing, and I have a feeling that insight meditation is the way to go. Does that answer your question?

Based on what I've read so far, I would guess that the first experience was (a brief flash of) some kind of concentration state, and the Rousing is somehow related to the progress of insight, but I'm curious to know if you or anyone else here can say anything more concrete about them.[/quote]

your guesses seem good, and the first experience does read like a short period of clear concentration ... and while the second experience does, likewise, read like something which might occur along some early stage of the progress of insight, without further information (particularly as regards the way it was experienced at the level of sensation) i can't say which.

tarin

RE: The daily grind

Mic Hoe — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:58:59 GMT

Mic:

But, there does seem to be, within that 'interior distraction that justifies itself' an energy that has the possibility of being redirected (as if it's a response to a basic misunderstanding, which forces it to effectively work against you), and then used in your favor; so it's no longer a distractive energy, but a useful one.

Explicitly, that energy that previously justified, or enlivened, the interior distraction can then become an energy that continually dismantles it.

Okay, I've got a model for the workings of this:

That 'energy' is the basic survival instinct.
It get's routed into a psychosomatic complex due to [fill in blank if you can*].

That psychosomatic complex contains, for example

The individual caught in subject/object duality and fretting over social identity issues.
The spiritual practitioner trying to get enlightened.
The spiritual adept, identified with naked awareness.

Every time an emotive thought complex is noticed and 'seen through', so that it falls away, and before you groove on the space and clarity behind it, this process itself can be seen as part of that very psychosomatic affliction, including the 'individual' who 'benefits' from the 'insight'.

In this way the entire psychosomatic complex becomes contrary to the basic survival instinct, the energy of which can now disentangle itself, and reapply to... the remainder (my week of knowing that, let's say, that there are no distractions).

I speculate that the logical endpoint of this model would be a basic survival instinct aligned effortlessly with sensate reality (devoid of aforementioned imaginary extensions).

But I don't see this model contradicting basic buddhist practice in anyway. In fact, the description of 'The 4 steps of Right Mindfulness' in another thread called 'Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?' overlays this perfectly.

(*Wrong Mindfulness, then)

Early results

Victor Cova — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:53:48 GMT

Hello everyone,

After about a month and a half of meditating for 30 min to 1h30 every day, I think I can benefit from your advice.

Background: I have done some form of concentration meditation, mainly inspired by what I had read on Zen, irregularly since I was 16, with more intense periods of 3 to 4 weeks every year since I was 18. I decided to go back to meditation and follow it through this time after reading stuff on mindfulness and psychotherapy and I am seeing a psychotherapist who practices and teaches mindfulness in a therapeutic context.

What I've been doing: I read Daniel's book early on, so throughout the past month and a half I have kept at least 30min of at least trying to do insight meditation.Most of the time, that was sitting, but I've also done walking meditation. Whilst sitting, I usually begin by basic concentration to settle in, then I try to notice every single sensation that make up the general feeling of the object I've chosen for as long as possible. I am not usually able to sustain this for the whole session, so I tend to settle back for some concentration for a bit, or for some metta. I started with the breath at the nostril, but found it difficult, then at the top of the nose, I tried at the diaphragm, found it challenging but ultimately too confusing, and went back to the nose. For a few days, I have also tried to focus on vision as an alternative, as I seem to easily hit upon something that I would call vibration: I can see tiny little dots flashing constantly like snow on a TV screen but much smaller and more rapid, and I can not their appearing and disappearing at a rate of about 4 per second, even though I am aware they're going much faster. When I try to do the same with the breath, it takes longer to get there and I hit "the wall" much more rapidly. What I call "the wall" is a sense of growing pressure, soon accompanied by irregular shaking of the whole body and irregular movements of whatever sense-organ I'm moving on (breath becomes very very short and irregular, eyes start moving like crazy). It seems both that my organs are trying to replicate the rapidity of the perception I focus on, and that something is trying to resist very violently to my observing it. I try to stay with the dots or little waves of feeling, but soon enough I have to focus on the other thing even if just for an instant and then everything falls down for a whilem, until the pressure mounts again etc. At times I also note whatever is going on, returning to the breath but focusing on, for instance, a mounting fear in my abdomen, or a pain in my back, and alternating between various of these, but that makes noting a whole lot slower, once evry two seconds or so, and not nearly as precise. At times I try to focus on the three characteristics and it's helped me "perceive" the bits but slowed the noting down and it encouraged daydreaming.

Off the cushion, I try to regularly go back to noting when I don't need to be deeply involved into something. I can now see the dots pretty much all the time and on all surfaces, and the breath is a bit trickier but not too much so. I do it because it's fascinating more than out of a sense of duty. I feared this would be like day-dreaming and make it more difficult to relate to the world, but I've found that whenever I'm interrupted by someone I know I end up being more spontaneous and cheerful than usual. I also do sort-of tonglen, as in when I realize that I start to think about my "stuff" and it's making me nervous or fearful, I concentrate on the pain/fear/etc, even asking for more and giving away whatever would be the opposite, and follow it grow in intensity and decrease. For a few weeks I did Chi Kung-style standing meditation for 20-30 min first thing in the morning, and it seemed to ease some physical pain, ground me more and give me more energy, but lower-back pains started to emerge and since I don't really know anyone to correct my posture I thought I'd stop.

Weird stuff/moments of insight: Realizing that pain, fear and lust rise and fall by themselves if I just look at them did me some good and helped me get back in control of some slightly addictive behaviours. I had a very brief instant when I knew that what I was seeing was just on the surface of my eyes, that it was me, and simultaneously that neither what I saw nor any of my experience was me but that they were as if projected on a screen in front of me. This realization was accompanied by some claustrophobia, as in realizing that I'm only there and will never be able to escape from the world. I think there's something like that in "the wall", a sort of desperate attempt to escape the realization thatI only know the world through my senses.

Thanks for reading all of this if you have, and if you have any opinion, advice or question they are appreciated. I think I'm around 3 Characteristics on Daniel's map, but I'm wondering in particular if what I see, the pulsating dots, are what I should be trying to see or something uninteresting. Other than that, I'm wondering if I should join a community/find a master, when the only available around me are either very very tibetan, or very therapeutical and low-level. Posture-wise, I sometimes sit on a chair, sometimes sit cross-legged on a bunch of old pillows, and I wonder if I should get myself a proper zafu etc. For now, retreats seem out of the question because far too expensive even to get to the free or cheap ones, but because my financial situation has changed I'm considering either a cheap introductory "Meditation and hillwalking" (I know... but it's cheap and near) or one at gaia house (this http://www.gaiahouse.co.uk/course.php?code=10162 or this http://www.gaiahouse.co.uk/course.php?code=10163) or a Goenka.

Any comment appreciated, I should reply tomorrow as it's 9 PM here in Scotland!

Victor

RE: Questions regarding two experiences

K N — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:45:12 GMT

tarin greco:

Thanks for your response, Tarin. I want to gain stream entry; that being said, I realize that I'm probably far away from that right now, so that's more of a long-term goal. I've finished reading the first two parts of MCTB (well, my first pass anyway --- I'm sure I'll end up rereading most of it), and based on what I've read so far, it seems that my immediate goal should be to attain the first samatha jhana. Once I can reach that 'base camp' with some confidence, I want to start scaling the mountain of insight. I want to resolve the 'question' that I've encountered during the experience that I (arbitrarily) named the Rousing, and I have a feeling that insight meditation is the way to go. Does that answer your question?

Based on what I've read so far, I would guess that the first experience was (a brief flash of) some kind of concentration state, and the Rousing is somehow related to the progress of insight, but I'm curious to know if you or anyone else here can say anything more concrete about them.

RE: Equanimity? Now what?

neem nyima — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:58:04 GMT

Just listening to the Hurricane Ranch talk, and someone said, might have been Ingram, that on a Hundred day retreat, in Malaysia about 50% get stream entry. It was in the second talk that they mentioned it. Hey, you probably looked at that stuff already.
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/podcasts.shtml
And Daniel, a fare few of the things you said when describing your experience of equanimity, were very clear mirrors of my experience- more clear, and the stuff about aspects of a kind of re-observation while still in equanimity were insightful. You can really feel the shift when you loose the equanimity and are fully back in re-observation, all those sensations that are flowing through you become intense, irritating and the environment and is sounds and sights grates on you, but when your in equanimity, your ass is sore you've sat for an hour discomforts have come and gone, and it was kind of mostly oka- except when it's strong then its just oka, and you want to sit more and you go another fifteen minutes and its good. Its so different A&P and I have no doubts about knowing all that energy stuff, but there is a fun vibe to doing energy work with insight that's really different to just getting Jhana or doing a really good chi gong session. For one at least with me A&P' s insight component pulls me into the dark night more quickly and Jhana or chi gong don't. Also since I've become more aware of the the dark night it's been a bit more intense or maybe I'm just more aware of how it interferes with my life, but at least I can come out the other side into equanimity, and know that even if it is a kind of avoidance, it is ripening me for my retreat and a more consolidated experience of equanimity during my retreat so the possibility of stream entry may present its self.

RE: The daily grind

Mic Hoe — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:20:35 GMT

Tarin:

Mic:

And when caught in such a distraction that demands a resolution, any efforts to do so, at best, just result in a freedom from it, and a moving on, but never a real resolution (as it's just a self supporting fantasy, any 'resolution' would only reshape it).

So there is always the option of recognizing, or at least remembering, the simple insanity of it, and get straight to the 'moving on' bit (not always so easy).

have you ever worked really hard at simply never forgetting?

Keeping ones eye on the ball? But, there does seem to be, within that 'interior distraction that justifies itself' an energy that has the possibility of being redirected (as if it's a response to a basic misunderstanding, which forces it to effectively work against you), and then used in your favor; so it's no longer a distractive energy, but a useful one.

Explicitly, that energy that previously justified, or enlivened, the interior distraction can then become an energy that continually dismantles it. I had this for an entire week which saw me gleefully going about my business in... a newly frictionless manner, a movement without any inertia. (But with possibly no essential change to my modus operandi.)

If this could be understood, I wouldn't have to remember.

In your audio talk you mentioned all feelings being like messages, and it seems relevant somehow.

RE: Questions regarding two experiences

tarin greco — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:05:38 GMT

hi kristian,

welcome to the dho.

both your description of the experience of sound filling the universe and of the experience of what you call 'the rousing' are interesting, and it is easy to understand how those experiences would have had a strong impact on the direction of your concerns. rather than attempt to fit those events to the progress of insight, however, i would prefer to ask what your goals are.. what is it you are looking to do here?

tarin

RE: Cushion Report: 2 Days of it

C T K — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 04:11:55 GMT

Daniel Johnson:

Funny you should mentioned that, I noticed the same thing arising in my mind when I first read your posts a while back!

I have to laugh at it now, as I've come to really appreciate the "team sport" nature of enlightenment that many have mentioned here (funny too, because I was never into team sports...but mostly because I didn't like sports), which itself may sometimes include an occasional sense of friendly competition. All of which encourages everyone to "get it done", it seems.

At this point, I hope just one of us does it soon so the other can pick the person's brain and land path right afterwords! So likewise, I'm pulling for us both (and everyone else on this board and doing this the world 'round).

-Chris

RE: The daily grind

tarin greco — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:39:27 GMT

Mic Hoe:

So there is always the option of recognising, or at least remembering, the simple insanity of it, and get straight to the 'moving on' bit (not always so easy).

have you ever worked really hard at simply never forgetting?

RE: The daily grind

Mic Hoe — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:21:14 GMT

tarin greco:

Mic Hoe:

Remember[ing] such thoughts are symptomatic of not wanting to be here

well, why do you want to not be here?

Actually I don't think they are symptomatic, but rather identical to not really being present. An interior distraction that justifies itself. What could the origin or motivation be for that? But I find the way I put it makes a good working model.

And when caught in such a distraction that demands a resolution, any efforts to do so, at best, just result in a freedom from it, and a moving on, but never a real resolution (as it's just a self supporting fantasy, any 'resolution' would only reshape it).

So there is always the option of recognising, or at least remembering, the simple insanity of it, and get straight to the 'moving on' bit (not always so easy).

But, I don't know what kicks it off. The best I can say (not the best, the most - I'm reaching a bit), is that there may first arise a tension between the sense of being and the sense of awareness.

Questions regarding two experiences

K N — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:54:51 GMT

Hi everyone,

I recently stumbled across MCTB, and I only wish I had found it sooner. My sincere thanks to Daniel for taking the time to write this book and then giving it away free online. (I bought the dead tree edition anyway, but the free online edition makes it much easier to share the information with others.) Reading MCTB rekindled my interest in two meditation-related experiences I've had over the years. I would like to hear your (as in y'all) thoughts on how these experiences fit into the framework laid out in MCTB.

The first experience occurred around ten years ago, when I was in high school and first experimenting with meditation. (I'm 26 now.) In those days I would often stay up all night and sleep until afternoon. On one such occasion I was meditating on my breath in the middle of the night when something strange happened. The rest of my family was asleep, and the only sound was the hum from my computer in the next room. After a few minutes of meditation (my sessions back then usually didn't last too long anyway) I suddenly found myself --- for lack of a better word --- dissolving. One moment I was sitting on the floor, aware of my breathing body and the hum of the computer behind the wall to my left. And then there was no longer an 'I' or a body, but rather the hum of the computer seemed to rush out and fill the universe. There was consciousness, but no 'I' or a separate body, just the all-encompassing hum. Almost immediately thoughts like "wow", "I must be getting somewhere" and "ah, non-duality" appeared, and that was the end of it: I was back in 'my body' and 'my mind' as usual.

Whereas the above experience was obviously an altered state of consciousness of some kind, the second experience is superficially more mundane, but actually left a deeper impression on me. I'm quite certain it happened before I ever heard of meditation, but I paid more attention to it once I had been exposed to the dharma, particularly the idea of no-self and certain koans. ("What was your original face before your parents were born?" comes to mind.) This experience is even harder to describe in words than the first one; I've been trying to write this message for several days now. I'm sorry if the following sounds like some kind of abstract intellectual thought exercise quite far removed from real practice. I assure you that the experience is one of direct, almost instantaneous nonverbal perception, but when I try to put it into words it sounds more like a dry philosophical argument that I've been digesting for years.

The Rousing, as I just decided to call this experience, has so far always occurred spontaneously and uninvited in daily life rather than in formal meditation. I call it the Rousing because it resembles rousing from a daydream, except that the 'daydream' is my ordinary day-to-day consciousness. The experience begins with a sudden feeling that rather than actually living my life, I have, for as long as I can remember, been completely absorbed in a kind of complicated and abstract role-playing game that I like to call life. Examining the game more closely, I see that it's actually a collection of separate subgames, such as 'university studies', in each of which I have a separate character, such as a 'student'. Each subgame has its own goals and rules. I realize that the 'I' whose solidity, continuity and unity I normally take for granted is actually just a ragtag collection of characters in a collection of games. The characters and the games constantly being redefined, and games and the characters with them come and go. Yet for some reason I seem to walk around every day thinking of this collection of characters as a permanent 'I' and of this collection of games as life or reality.

The first reaction to this realization is to feel my body quite vividly and identify with it strongly. When I'm absorbed in my games, I am aware of my body, but somehow quite vaguely; it's just one of my character's many attributes. My character happens to be human, and humans happen to have bodies; that's all there is to it. Once I enter the Rousing, however, I realize that the reality of my body is actually far more absolute than the reality of my various characters whose games I constantly worry about. Games and characters come and go, but my body has always be
en present as long as I can remember. Thus I think "I am this body, I really am" and wonder what it would mean for the body to die or what it meant for it to be born and find that I have no
idea.

As soon as my sense of my body solidifies, however, it proceeds to dissolve, as I realize that my body is primarily a sensation just like the 'outside world'. I note that my thoughts and emotions are also perceptions. The games and the player of games are perceptions. I realize that I cannot be these perceptions, since I'm perceiving them --- and I realize that I have no idea who or what I am beneath all this or what 'I' means or what it means that I exist. Yet amidst this confusion I also have a strong intuition that this problem could somehow be resolved, and it's hard to imagine going back to my normal life without discovering that resolution. I find it very puzzling that I can walk around worrying about myself all day all year, when I clearly have no idea what 'myself' actually is.

As far as I can remember, the Rousing always subsided after a while, with a whimper rather than a bang; eventually I just forgot about it and continued playing my games as usual. On the other hand I'm quite sure having had this experience several times was one of the reasons the dharma immediately seemed to make sense to me when I first encountered it. I already had a strong intuition that I had a tendency of ascribing solidity to transitory (or even illusory) phenomena and that much of my dissatisfaction in life stemmed from misunderstandings like that. I haven't experienced the Rousing for quite some time now, either because the idea has become sufficiently integrated in my everyday consciousness that I no longer feel the baffled surprise associated with the experience in the past, or perhaps because my practice has just been too wishy-washy for a long time.

Anyway, I would like to know where you think my experiences stand with respect to the path to awakening (particularly as discussed in MCT and how they should inform my practice. For example, would it make any sense to make attaining one or both of these 'states' as a first goal? Does the fact that I've had these kinds of experiences spontaneously say anything about what forms of practice might be best suited for me? Ever since I noticed that certain koans seem to point me towards the Rousing (although I experienced the Rousing before I ever heard of koans) I've been thinking that it might be useful for me to try to use the Rousing as a meditation object once my concentration is stable enough, but I was never confident enough to go ahead with it.

Oh well, time to meditate and sleep!

Kristian

RE: The daily grind

tarin greco — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:32:04 GMT

Mic Hoe:

Wake up, in the body, not paying too much attention.
After a few minutes experience some kind of dislocation, like the mind passing through a door that can't be found afterwards; now strange but familiar, it was much better being in bed.
Sit down with my coffee and entertain a few thoughts along the lines of 'Who the hell am I?" and "How does (the presumably unknown someone) get out!"
Remember such thoughts are symptomatic of not wanting to be here (mornings eh?)
Maybe feel some anxiety (that’s good, means I'm stepping forwards).
See some thoughts drop away as insubstantial.
Notice that everything is happening in awareness rather than towards anything.
Groove on the space that’s opened up.
Sip the coffee and notice myself, locally, and see that... there is no space to groove on, or it's the same thing, or it doesn't matter.
Go to work.

Possibly repeat from about half way down in the day.

Why would this happen every day?

well, why do you want to not be here?

The daily grind

Mic Hoe — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:22:13 GMT

RE: Lengthy: Analyze this!

Pavel O. — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:42:31 GMT

Hey S. Pro,

I think that what Ian meant by mixing practices up has more to do with explaining your experiences and your practice in terms of whatever information you came across in these different traditions. This can be problematic, I believe, until you are sufficiently versed in one tradition to know that you are not over-blowing stuff and that your diagnoses, explanations and views are in accord with reality. I think that it's really common for people to hugely overrate what it is that is going on, or happening to them, if they do not have an accurate framework for identifying what's what. It becomes possible to take this tidbit from Buddhism, that excerpt from Sufism or what have you, and to make up one's own version of how it all functions. I suspect that this would be hugely inaccurate (and unhelpful in terms of the efficacy of the practice) until one was very far down the path. The good news is that all these traditions do have sufficient maps (although I am only aware of the Theravada map) for what it is that you are experiencing (without any need to mix them up). Have a look at Daniel Ingram's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha for a very clear and direct explanation of the Theravada four path model (the stages of insight will be of interest), this could be a very useful framework for your practice.

As for the importance of all these experiences (you call them crucial happenings), how much have they permanently affected your understanding of reality, moment-to-moment, and your place in it? Or is there some other reason why they are crucial?

All the best and have fun with your practice.

Pavel

RE: Lengthy: Analyze this!

S. Pro — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 06:31:18 GMT

Hi Ian,
thanks for the reply. I do not assume that I mixed spiritual disciplines in the way that I follow a practice one day and another the next. At the some times of crucial happpenings I didn´t even have a practice. But I do see parallels in different meta-frameworks (=religions).
But I totally agree that it´s best to stick to one pratice and not to jump from one to the other.
I also agree that drug consumption is most likely to be a hindrance, "spiritual" or concerning mundane issues. So I haven´t smoked weed for a long time and in the last 15 years I just had one phase where I consumed regularly.

Thanks & take care.
S.

RE: What is this?

Ian And — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 05:05:40 GMT

Tom Carr:

I have a sense that it is NOW and will always be NOW. The next moment will never come. The whole idea of a next moment is an illusion. This moment is all there is. Sometimes this can be extremely relaxing and pleasant and luxurious. Other times it can be uncomfortable, because there is a craving and impatience to move into the next moment along with a sense that the next moment never comes.

All in all I am grateful to be experiencing this. The unpleasant moments of impatience and craving are unpleasant, but not terrible. The moments of luxurious freedom in the NOW can be pretty wonderful.

This is nothing unusual. You're having an affective response to what is happening now because you're experiencing an acute awareness of now moments. And, you're just playing with your mind. Or your mind is playing with you.

But also, it's indicative of moments of mindfulness. It's an experience of mindfulness, to be aware of the present moment. The next moment DOES come, it just comes somewhere down the line (in time sequence, that is). What you have to ask yourself is: Am I ready for that next moment (if you know or have a good idea about what it will entail). If you just wait for it, it will show up.

Just keep focusing on getting done whatever needs doing in the present moment, and you will always make it to the next moment down the line.

I get this in running all the time. Somewhere in the middle of a run I might get an idea about what I want to be doing after the run, or I just want to stop and rest. Rather than give in to those thoughts, I keep focusing on what needs to be done in the moment, which is taking one step after the other no matter how uncomfortable it may feel. Because I know that soon enough the run will be over, and I can do what I've been thinking of doing. Just stay focused on what needs to get done in the moment, and the future will take care of itself.

Oh, and congratulate yourself for remaining mindful.

RE: What is this?

tarin greco — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:39:52 GMT

Tom Carr:

All in all I am grateful to be experiencing this. The unpleasant moments of impatience and craving are unpleasant, but not terrible. The moments of luxurious freedom in the NOW can be pretty wonderful.

just a quick comment: are you sure you're experiencing the impatience and the craving now?

tarin

What is this?

Tom Carr — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:30:32 GMT

I am getting into a strange and interesting state. This started in moving meditation (mindful house cleaning) and now is spreading into lots of moments in life.

This is hard to put into words, but here is my best attempt:

I have a sense that it is NOW and will always be NOW. The next moment will never come. The whole idea of a next moment is an illusion. This moment is all there is. Sometimes this can be extremely relaxing and pleasant and luxurious. Other times it can be uncomfortable, because there is a craving and impatience to move into the next moment along with a sense that the next moment never comes.

All in all I am grateful to be experiencing this. The unpleasant moments of impatience and craving are unpleasant, but not terrible. The moments of luxurious freedom in the NOW can be pretty wonderful.

Thanks for any diagnosis or comments.

RE: Diagnostics welcome

Ian And — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:55:47 GMT

Sean Lindsay:

Now, several months later than that, I can move "into" it essentially at will -- whether meditating, or driving, or having a conversation with someone. The only time I haven't been able to access it intentionally is during sex. (I was curious, because it feels a bit like the energy liberation of orgasm, but without the nuances and details of it.)

So the question is this: is this experience/state just something weird that my nervous system does, or is it something I can work with? If the latter, suggestions about approaches of how to work with it would be appreciated.

Hi sean,

I read through your prior thread to get up to speed with where you are coming from. From my perspective (and it is not necessarily the perspective of others here who are into Daniel's impressions from his book MCTB; although I do find his comments on meditation technology in the book useful and helpful for others who are unfamiliar with his take) you may have fallen into a quite natural ditch (meaning one easy to fall into) which has the potential to lead you on another wild goose chase if you should choose to follow it.

The mention of Adyashanti is what tipped this off to me. I'm not familiar with what you are referring to as being what Jack Kornfield has mentioned about "initial awakening experiences," but I am familiar with Adyashanti's website (reflecting the writings of Wei Wu Wei aka Terrence Gray, Nisargadatta and the rest of the Advaita non-dualist tradition), which reflect this non-dual type of so-called awakening that people from various religious traditions experience. While these experiences are fun and intriguing, they do not fully reflect the early Buddhist conception of awakening, if that is what one is after. If, however, you are after confirmation of this "non-dual" type of awakening, I'm sure there are plenty here who will help to confirm that for you. I'm not sure, though, whether or not this might comprise stream entry from the early Buddhist point of view. The experience of "not-self" that you described, though, is definitely part of stream entry in early Buddhism..

Yet, on the other hand, should you have an interest in alleviating dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) from your life, you might want to pay some heed to the following essay Dhamma and Non-duality by Bhikkhu Bodhi, where he points out that "non-dualistic spiritual traditions are far from consistent with each other, but comprise, rather, a wide variety of views profoundly different and inevitably colored by the broader conceptual contours of the philosophies which encompass them." He goes on to state that:

"For the Vedanta, non-duality (advaita) means the absence of an ultimate distinction between the Atman, the innermost self, and Brahman, the divine reality, the underlying ground of the world. From the standpoint of the highest realization, only one ultimate reality exists — which is simultaneously Atman and Brahman — and the aim of the spiritual quest is to know that one's own true self, the Atman, is the timeless reality which is Being, Awareness, Bliss. Since all schools of Buddhism reject the idea of the Atman, none can accept the non-dualism of Vedanta."

Rather than dealing with perceptual merry-go-round impression concepts such as kundalini, spinal energy, Chi (ki), and the like, don't you think, coming from the rather grounded background of an attorney, you would rather stick with concepts and phenomena that you can more readily identify from your own first hand experience? Like the sensation of concentration or samadhi (sometimes manifesting as a pressure experienced in the center of the forehead between the eye brows), which can "feel" as though it might be an energy moving in the body, but which actually isn't that at all. (I used to buy into all these "metaphysical" models myself at one time; that is, until I developed a more stringent ability at discernment.)

Anyway, just some food for further thought and consideration. Be well.

In peace,
Ian

RE: Lengthy: Analyze this!

Ian And — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:31:34 GMT

Just one thing in passing, Sven, as commentary on the variety of experiences described.

You'll never get anywhere by mixing spiritual disciplines. Been there, done that; it doesn't work. Too many chefs spoil the broth. Trying to mix Zen with Christianity is hopeless. The two are incompatible. While you may not have done this consciously, it is apparent from your description that this occurred nevertheless.

Best to stick with one discipline all the way through and see how it works. After you've practiced for some length of time, from there you can evaluate it to see whether or not you want to stick with it or change.

If you are looking for a way out of the confusion and delusion you've put yourself through, I would recommend reading and studying the Pali suttas in translation (the Wisdom Publications editions of the Nikayas for English readers is probably the best and most reliable rendering of these discourses of the Buddha), as well as any helpful commentaries on these that help you to better understand what is being stated. The website accesstoinsight.org has many of these helpful commentaries from contemporary teachers posted in its listing of literature. Also, it goes almost without saying that finding a Dhamma teacher or guide that you trust and respect to help you undergo this process should help to speed it up immensely.

In peace,
Ian

P.S. Also, if you are using any mind-altering drugs (like marijuana, hash or whatever) you should STOP immediately. These aren't going to help you begin to "see things as they are" because they alter your perception of reality. Doesn't matter if it feels good. "Feeling good" is not a valid criteria for developing a clear mind and clear seeing. At least not in the sense that it is being affected by a mind-altering drug. Been there, done this too; it doesn't work either.

Lengthy: Analyze this!

S. Pro — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:29:02 GMT

Hi all,

I ask you for some dharma diagnosis as I had some experiences/stage in my life that seem not to fit into any framework.

I´m a 35yo guy who got interested in Buddhism (and spiritual matters) at the age of 24 due to depression/disorientation. I never managed to establish a disciplined meditation practice over a longer

period than 2 weeks with a 20 - 40 min session a day. Meditation style is Shikantaza. Long periods of no practice. During my sessions I often had visual hallucinations. Vision fading slowly from

normal to "blackish" vision.
"Thy Eye is single effect" that is talked about in the bible (wherever).

1.) Psychosis or "spiritual" ego-dissolution?
At 24 I had a ground shaking experience. I studied law but was deeply unhappy with it (unsuccesfull). This caused a massive internal conflict since I knew that my life was in a dead end but I

ignored it completely.
One night I was lying in bed and the most dreadful thing happened, unspeakable horror beyond imagination. The "knowledge" that all my thoughts and ideas around me, my self-concepts and so on are

untrue and a complete dillusion. It my be hard for you to understand this if you haven´t experienced it yourself. Those thoughts were the truth for me and beyond question. They raced through my

head, repeating themselves. I absolutely knew that I was insane. I was filled with terror and fear which was just as obsolute and beyond words. I knew that I had to get myself to a mental asylum

the next day. After lying awake the whole night, sweating like hell and terrorized by my mind the first sunways were a relief.
I calmed down a bit and decided not to check into loonie house. The aftereffects lingered on for several months.

At that time I had no other reference than looking at it from a purely pathological view (=psychosis). After a few years - reading a lot about dharma - I came to understand the concept of ego-

dissolution in the spiritual context. I assume that spiritual issues and psychological ones go hand in hand. A Dark Night can have elements of or be like a psychosis.

2.) Various shifts in perception
I had various shifts in perception in form of a dropping away of a conceptual filter or something. I once was at a corporate event where I sat at a table. My perspective suddenly changed. All the

people appeared to be like innocent children. Not visually but how I felt about them. Everything was fresh and new in a way

Once I sat at a table with friends, drinking. Suddenly something changed like above but less impactful. People realised that something was different about me although I didn´t change my behaviour.

I was talking very calmly so not a "lot of behaviour" was happening anyway.

Once I sat at a table at my mom and I saw her thru new eyes. Interesting, especially if you think about all the concepts and neurotic stuff that builds up in families.

Walked down the street and got "thy eye is single" effect. Purely visual change. 3-dimensionality of the world faded into more of a 2D experience. Was still fully functional and could act in 3D-

reality.

3.) I once slowly woke up in the morning without really getting up. Half asleep I felt an incredible bliss which is difficult to put into words.

4.) Strange revelation which cannot be articulated. I smoked weed and suddely every idea/thought I had in my mind was completely wonderful. Those ideas
were related in a news sense and had a new quality, everything made sense where I wouldn´t conncect dots. I just came to me and I had insight into something which was always obstructed.
No particular knowledge gained (like how to build a spaceship) but just that "everything made sense". Accompanied by some kind of bliss. Everything fresh an new, absolute interconnectedness of

things.

5.) I lived in a hostel in Australia for a while. After the initial euphoria about new freedom faded I became more and more withdrawn. I had a strong feeling of the impermanence of my social

sorrounding. So not in the sense of single phenomena but more general in the sense of the environment of the hostel. People move in and out everyday. New faces that I didn´t bother to get to now.
Time of bigtime beer and weed consumption, extremely unhealthy lifestyle. Understood the unsatisfactoryness going hand in hand with this.

This time was also a time where I suddely developed a strong desire to go to church and a need for devotional practice. I felt very "christian" although I wasn´t brought up religious at all and

actually detested Christianity in my teens. Desire for a new (contemplative) lifestyle .

Later I move to Perth (OZ) where I had a profound opening which lasted for weeks. This must be the eternal love that is talked about. It was really unconditional, undestructible.
It later faded and I was - for no external reason - having violent thought. I never had these before. I assume they were an ego-repair mechanism. A guy in a conversation remarked I "have a heart

of gold" without knowing me. Felt like a saint ;-)
This was the most profound experience I ever had although it wasn´t accompanied by spectecular stuff at all.

6.) I later went back to Germany and walked through Munich after a spliff I smoked. Being at total ease self-confidence and light-hearted. I later went to friends to smoke some more. Something

changed, a bit of change in perception and "beingness". Sutle but ovbsious enough - I realised that my sister realised something changed about me.

8.) Kundalini: tried to arise it and it was weird and so strong I had to get off the cushion. One time experiment. Kundalini is brutal!!!

7.) Just a remark: when I meditate well in Shikantaza style it has an aftereffect. Trivial things, like a lamp on my desk, seem to bve more "there". I always feel that I never looked at them in

detail before. Colours, epecially green, are more intense.

Any input is welcome. Sorry for the lenght but had to get this off my chest.

Cheers
Sven

Diagnostics welcome

Sean Lindsay — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 02:20:23 GMT

So I'm back.

For the past year, I've been practicing mostly breath-focused concentration meditation practices. I noticed toward the end of last year (following the events narrated here: Prior Thread), that I was entering more frequently and more readily a state that for a while I thought of as the energy-vibrational/kundalini energy experience that would sometimes arise during the A&P. But as time went by, I started to experience the shift even when I wasn't meditating, holding it from just a few moments to a minute or two at a time.

Now, several months later than that, I can move "into" it essentially at will -- whether meditating, or driving, or having a conversation with someone. The only time I haven't been able to access it intentionally is during sex. (I was curious, because it feels a bit like the energy liberation of orgasm, but without the nuances and details of it.)

So the question is this: is this experience/state just something weird that my nervous system does, or is it something I can work with? If the latter, suggestions about approaches of how to work with it would be appreciated.

FWIW, I've got a weekend concentration retreat coming up in November and a five day vipassana retreat coming in December, if some of the ways to work with this entail more extended practice than my daily sitting (typically 35-50 minutes).

Thanks in advance.

sean

RE: Cushion Report: 2 Days of it

Daniel Johnson — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 01:42:42 GMT

Thanks C T K,
I'm pulling for you, and also must admit feeling a small twinge of competition. Of course, if you nail it first, then you'll be better equipped to help out the other poor shmucks like me - so it's a win/win either way.

Thanks Daniel,
I was reading your book and totally grooving on it right now. I read the whole section on "Models of Enlightenment" - not actually expecting it to be so helpful for my practice, but actually it was just what I needed. The content vs. insight distinction is sinking in deeper after reading it, and seeing how even some of my insight-based/non-dual mental models of enlightenment were still trying to "drive a wedge" between me and my direct experience now in this moment. Anyway, I do appreciate all the help.

Be well,

Daniel

RE: Cushion Report: 2 Days of it

Daniel M. Ingram — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:17:15 GMT

Very, very good insights.

Integrate the field, all of it, as you say.

Daniel

RE: Cushion Report: 2 Days of it

C T K — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:56:16 GMT

Thanks for posting this. A good read before my own 2 day retreat starting tomorrow. All I can say is, to us both (and everyone else grinding it out in Equanimity or Dark Night for that matter) - stick with it!

Typing that made me smile (hence the smiley)...anyway, best of luck.

Cushion Report: 2 Days of it

Daniel Johnson — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:24:23 GMT

I went into the retreat with a considerable amount of bodily pain, muscle soreness (as I have described previously in another post). That being the case, I spent the majority of the two days in bed and slept quite a bit through Day 1. I'm not sure if the pain brought up aversion, or the aversion brings up pain, or what, but I spent the majority of the retreat in what would probably be called the Dark Night. I think most of the time was in Re-observation as it had that familiar "brick wall" feeling to it, a sense that it's impossible to go forward and impossible to go back. The simple task of "being here" was incredibly irritating and bringing up all sorts of torment and anguish.

I continued to stay aware and present for a good 60% of the time. Using my best understanding of what is mean by "noting," I'd say that I was noting probably at a rate of about ten per minute, though I'm still unclear on what is or is not defined as a "note" - or what distinguishes "noting" practice from "insight" practice, as the two seem to be the same thing to me. This is still a point of some considerable confusion for me.

I may have had some dips down to misery and disgust, and maybe a little bit of fear too, and maybe dissolution (though, reading the discriptions, it sounds like some of early equanimity is a little dissolution-like). I think on Day 0, I may have also had some A&P like experiences. I also had a few jumps up to low equanimity, but these were somewhat agonizing given their very transient and short-lived duration.

During my Dark Night time, there were some experiences which arose quite a bit and which I noted with some degree of diligence and accuracy (though by no means a complete penetration): spacing out, suffering, frustration, despair, hope, anguish, tension, misery, planning, thinking, confusion, lost, anger, fantasizing, a sorta undefinable "Arg?ghauahggg!!gbaaalllaahhh?h... . " (and more...)

By the evening of Day 2, I think I must have entered equanimity, as the noting picked up. There were a couple things that helped the shift. One was reading this quote in MCTB:

"The most essential principle I wish to drive home is that THIS IS IT, meaning that this moment contains the truth. Any model [of Enlightenment] that tries to drive a wedge between the specifics of what is happening in your world right now and what awakening entails needs to be considered with great skepticism. With the simple exception of the fact of poorly perceiving the sensations occurring now and habitually coming up with the illusion of a separate, continuous individual, nearly all of the rest of the dreams are problematic to some degree. This basic principle is essential to practice, as it focuses things on the here and now, and also happens to be true."
- Daniel Ingram

Along with tarin's small hints posted to me here, I really started to focus on "THIS IS IT." - which brought about a sense of liberation, equanimity, and a sorta indescrimantory attitude to look at all experience without any inclination to value one experience more than another.

In equanimity territory, I noted: calm, peace, quiet, investigation, attention, movement, thought, self (as in a watcher, obeserver, meditator, whatever), sounds, light, space, different body sensations, breath, sinking, pulling, dropping (and all the sorta movement away from the present moment), reflecting, analyzing, excitement, spaciness, expectation,

But, I also turned my attention toward developing a kind of inclusiveness. It seems like the inclusiveness of awareness and the immeadiacy of awareness go hand in hand, and what was clear is that the noting/awareness wasn't immeadiately with experience as it arose, it was still always off by a half-beat, and that seemed to coordinate a lot with the lack of inclusivity of the field, that things were always being seen apart from the rest. And, it also seemed like to be truely immeadiate would require a sorta non-dual awareness, because to be aware of an object from outside of the object could never be inclusive (as the observer is left out of awareness), nor could it be immeadiate (because it was always known a split-second later by the arising of the observer). Hmmm.... writing this on paper now seems to be helping to bring some things together.

So, there was an out-of-synch-ness to experience, which led to expectation, frustration, a sorta low level anxiety (like trying to juggle too many objects), resistance in the form of: fear, anger, blame, etc.

Also notable was a lot of "stuff," as I am after all heavily conditioned as a psychologized westerner. Stuff included: "I can't do this" "I'm a retard" "No one likes me" "This is impossible" "I'm bad for doing this or wanting this" "I'm wasting my time" "I'm hopeless" etc. on and on and on ... And, of all this, I've come to one conclusion that I really think a good solution on a more "worldly" level would be more association with those who have attained some of this stuff and are willing to talk openly about it. So, I put up another post about that.

OK, that's about it for now.

- Daniel

RE: Is this Nirodha Samapatti?

Derek A Cameron — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:21:26 GMT

Thanks, Daniel. Clearly more investigation is required to be certain.

RE: Is this Nirodha Samapatti?

Daniel M. Ingram — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:30:29 GMT

Good question.

I would personally need more information to make an informed guess.

Read the chapter in MCTB and see what you think.

There are very specific things about the setup, entrance, exit, afterglow, and insight attainments of the person doing it that all need to be there.

Can you tell us more about how you set it up, whether or not you think you are an anagami and why, as well as what the few moments of the entrance and exit are like, as well as the afterglow and side effects afterwards?

Multiple things, such as well-attained Neither Perception Nor Yet Non-Perception (8th jhana) as well as Fruitions might possibly be described this way, though each has its own aspects and I am not sure that either necessarily fits.

Tell us more so that we may guess with more accuracy,

Daniel

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

Daniel Johnson — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:36:58 GMT

Well, I guess anything more that I add to this thread will simply be "noted, noted..." so, I'll leave it at that for now. "leaving, leaving..."

I'm going into retreat again for another two days starting tonight. I'm dedicating this retreat to the Dolphins of Taiji - as the Dolphin slaughter will soon be starting this September. And, if I can do one small step for the dolphins, it will be to get motha'-effin' stream entry as fast as humanly possible.

I'll be back in a few days.

By the way, if you haven't seen The Cove, it's a fun and sad and educational movie.

http://www.savejapandolphins.org/

Is this Nirodha Samapatti?

Derek A Cameron — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:04:21 GMT

Imagine that "I" am water -- that is, water is an analogy for the awareness that is me. When I "think," or my awareness is in the "thinking," it is as if the water is wavy and splashing around. Then when I manage to stop my thoughts, all the splashes and waves stop, and the water becomes flat.

But there is still an "undercurrent" that moves though the water. Then when I "still" the undercurrent, there is total stillness and crystal clearness.

Then it's as if someone pulls the plug out of a bathtub, and all the water (awareness) disappears down the plug hole. Even awarness itself is gone.

Sometimes I have come back from this, and seen that there is no breath. The eyeballs revert to a normal position, having been turned upward during the disappearance of awareness.

Is this disappearance of awareness Nirodha Samapatti?

RE: Help: Disappearing breath, energy releases & emotions (long!&a

Crazy Wisdom — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:51:02 GMT

You might find the "questions for Bruno" thread interesting. It has some stuff in it about managing kundalini and I have written a lengthy post about some ways to do that in the thread.

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

Daniel M. Ingram — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:49:05 GMT

squandering, squandering... ;)

D

RE: Would like to place myself in all of this

Daniel M. Ingram — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:34:55 GMT

Hey, I would check out the chapter in MCTB (found in the wiki) on the Progress of Insight, as well as Mahasi's Practical Insight Meditation, also found there.

Body twisting, pain, tension, etc. the Third Insight Stage (3rd ñana), aka Three Characteristics, more formally Knowledge of the Three Characteristics.

Energy body and the happy stuff: very likely early A&P (Arising and Passing Away, 4th ñana, 2nd vipassana jhana, etc.).

As to a really simplified answer to the question about the Buddhist and Hindu uses of the word samadhi, with these being generalizations:

Buddhists tend to use it to mean concentration practices, and may use it semi-senonomously with samatha, sometimes called things like jhana practice or pure concentration practices, i.e. the second of the Three Trainings of morality, concentration and wisdom.

Hindus tend to use it to refer to actual attainment of some state of realization, insight, non-duality, unity, wisdom, Self, Brahama, etc. and are thus using it to refer to something like enlightenment though at times there may be vagueness about whether or not it refers to actual realization or just a temporary absorption in a state that is a taste of it, these being my interpretations as one who is certainly not an insider in Hindu meditation circles, and thus these ideas should be taken with a grain of salt.

As to the heart, this is a complex topic, and I would ask for further clarification about what you mean by it, experientially.

Daniel

Would like to place myself in all of this

Benjamin Lombardo — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:13:20 GMT

Hello,

I recently came back from my first retreat, a 9 day retreat at IMS. Not much was discussed about the territory of experience, so I would like to understand where my experiences land in the map as I have a tendency to inflate I am new to insight practice but have practiced kriya yoga and meditation somewhat steadily for three years.

So to get down to it:
My predominant experience on the retreat were intense bodily sensations and pain on a level much deeper than my ordinary experience. Tension in the face and throat migrated down to the chest (worst pain I had ever felt) and into the spine where it stayed for some days as I worked with the hindrances surrounding it. Later on the pain continued down the front of my body through my groin and down the inner thigh. Tension in the back would release and I would shake like a dog trying to dry itself. At times my body was pulled into different postures. By the end of the retreat (and continuing afterward) I the hindrances were still coming, but I could clearly note them without identifying.

Off of the cushion I would cycle between frustration, irritability and doubt coupled with the experience of deep relief in my body, emotional release and a gratitude for life. My energy body's completeness grew, especially in the chest, pelvis and legs. The acuity of my senses increased and I experienced partial relief from physical ailments that have been troubling me for years. (Yes I know this is a story

So my questions are as follows:

What stage of practice is this, and how should I proceed as this physical process continues? Can I expect it to heal me? One of the questions that was not answered on the retreat is how to relate to pain when I have a habit of pushing myself, whether to deeply investigate the pain or to note the habit of "prying" or "pushing."

Another question is, where does the heart fit in to all of this? The teaching on the retreat emphasized the heart opening to experience with equanimity. Since the retreat I have definitely felt a lot more love for myself and others, but can't help noticing that it doesn't seem to be mentioned much in my exploration of this website. (Admittedly this is pretty limited)

Finally on a side note, if anyone has experience with more hindu forms of meditation (like kriya yoga and hindu tantra) could they please explain the difference in the term "samadhi" between these and buddhist meditation? The meditation teacher I first learned from (a sort of amalgam of kriya and tantra) postulated samadhi (first savikalpa then nirvikalpa) as a goal of meditation, defining it as a state of oneness, bliss, and nothingness when the meditator's energy reached and emerged from the crown chakra. This does not seem to me to be the Buddhist definition of samadhi, so any clarification would be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Ben

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

tarin greco — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:04:46 GMT

the trying *is* it

RE: Equanimity? Now what?

Daniel Johnson — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:49:14 GMT

neem nyima:

Hi Daniel Johnson, I read your post too, very clear and concise, cataloguing and comparing, on the equanimity. You seemed to pick out some really good or essential passages to reference your experience. Wow, that was a long retreat, 30 days- sounds like you were really consolidated in the experience of equanimity. I had it going for a few days but haven't been practicing enough lately to keep it present, sort of dark nighting it and some times tittering on the edge of reactivating it. I've been in dark night probably the last 10 years or more, I'm a bit of a classic dummy, floundering in the dark knight, feeling more optimistic now that i know the map and recognise the the significance of equanimity in the context of the map. Going to India for three months in the summer, so will do a thirty day then. Never done one before. Kind of sitting at that point where i have to practice for equanimity but I don't enough. I don't really know and it's probably a wild guess, you could do another, 10 days or 10 X 30 days, and it might or might not happen- stream entry -but I think it's likely, (please anyone correct me if I'm wrong) the more consistently you maintain equanimity from here on out in retreat and daily life, the more likely you are to ripen. I really need equanimity to manage my daily life, cause the irritation etc. and heightened sensitivity to the sensations in my body, pains tension, can get intense otherwise. Brother sounds like your doing really well, there were some really good words of advise in you thread about, equanimity and aspects of the dark night being easy to be with in that state! I walked around or a few days sort of holding that with a 'soft' equanimity. What a rave, thanks for sharing, I'll keep an I on, for more tips..

Hey neem nyima,

Thanks. I'm glad you got some value from my posting. I don't know if I was in fact consolidated in equanimity on my long retreat, as I don't really understand these maps well. I think I'm very much a dummy too, which I'm discovering quite to my surprise. And, I wouldn't suggest much in the way of taking advice from anything I write (though, I don't suggest taking that advice either

I think if there is such a promised land as this so-called "stream entry" - then perhaps a lot will make much more sense when I arrive. Until then, it's just practice, practice, practice. (and more practice)

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

Daniel Johnson — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:43:09 GMT

Thanks, tarin. I think that could be useful advice.

I really don't see the connection between what you said and what I said, however. It seems that "the experience as it is, is *it" - is objectifying it. Like, they sound kinda like the same thing to me. Like, what you said is that "the experience" is "it" (ie. it's an object, an "it")

Now, the *trying* to objectify it seems to fit, because I've also noticed a lot of "trying, trying.." in general which isn't actually "doing, doing..." and that's the whole point of what I'm saying. I spend a lot of time "trying" to meditate, and not as much time actually meditating, and it seems there is a squandering of energy in this process.

I'm not sure if this makes sense.

I really appreciate your help. Thanks

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

tarin greco — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:51:38 GMT

forget about trying to objectify it, the experience, as it is, is *it*

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

Daniel Johnson — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:09:35 GMT

tarin greco:

have you tried noting the not knowing where to go or what to do?

('lost, lost')

Yes. I can't say it's fully been objectified and seen through, though.

RE: Freed from naming things

Aman A. — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:06:21 GMT

J C:

I'm going to say that it was one of the following:
Emptiness, ?

It does sound like an experience of emptiness. I have had a similar experience and compared to it, PCE seems fabricated. AF doesn't have appeal after this.

You may read Nagarjuna's Mula madhyamaka karika and Heart Sutra.

http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/verses2.htm

As emptiness is a part of Mahayana Buddhism, Theravada people may not have much to say about this as well as someone from AF.

RE: Equanimity? Now what?

neem nyima — Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:51:29 GMT

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

tarin greco — Sat, 14 Aug 2010 01:06:58 GMT

Daniel Johnson:

I really liked the phrase "set 'em up and knock 'em down" in the Hurricane Ranch dharma discussion (which is also where I got it in my head to "get it done") But, i still find this frustratingly harder to do in practice than in theory. Mostly, I find myself challenged with the "set 'em up" part. It seems a lot of energy is squandered when I don't really know where to go or what to do. Also, a lot of energy is squandered in resistance to moving forward in different forms or the other. I find I spend a lot of time wanting or trying to investigate something, but unable to, and then I try to investigate this state, but am unable to. I've spent a lot of time noting "can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, non-investigating, not-looking, not-looking, not doing it, not doing it, not meditating, not meditating" (...)

have you tried noting the not knowing where to go or what to do?

('lost, lost')

RE: Please Help Me! – where am I?!

Daniel Johnson — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:34:45 GMT

Sounds strangely similar to what happened to me in Berkeley about eleven years ago. For me it was quantum physics mixed with my first introduction to Eastern thought, mixed with falling in love, mixed with lots of alcohol, some pot, and some mushrooms. Altogether, it led to the A&P event for me, in vipassana terms. This was followed by about a year in the Dark Night, and then about 9 years of wandering aimlessly through different traditions trying to find something that would lead me back to "that."

Don't have much to offer you as far as advice, but I think it could be a good chance you've been in insight territory this whole time. And, at the same time, it may be best to give attention to your sila/morality in a very down-to-earth, practical sense, as I find this gives a good grounding for navigating the crazy stuff.

RE: Possible "High Equanimity"?

Daniel Johnson — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:15:26 GMT

Well,
I mostly stuck to the plan as best as I was able to. I had a number of breakthroughs into this so called "High Equanimity" territory. Last night, in bed, it was like the structure of time-space was breaking up into like primordial soup of mind fragments in a way that revealed that space wasn't quite what I thought it was. I didn't even know there was a thing called "space" which was occuring as solid in the background of everything. It was just something that was never really apparent until it started to break up. And, it was like if the A&P is the dissolution of the object of awareness, and the Dark Night is the dissolution of the background, then Equanimity, I guess is the dissolution of the entirety including the space time coordinates which sorta create the "ground" (neither foreground nor background). Also, at one point while keeping strict attention on the sense of self and seeing it arise and pass moment to moment, there was an experience where the "observer" dropped away in a sort of synchronization which simultaneously gave experience a very 3D quality in which awareness was simply pervading out in every direction.

So, that was the work I did at the frontier of my insight progress. But, those were still only momentary or lasting minutes at most, and most of the work was done at less-than-frontier spaces, even a dip into the dark night that lasted about 6 hours yesterday.

I really liked the phrase "set 'em up and knock 'em down" in the Hurricane Ranch dharma discussion (which is also where I got it in my head to "get it done") But, i still find this frustratingly harder to do in practice than in theory. Mostly, I find myself challenged with the "set 'em up" part. It seems a lot of energy is squandered when I don't really know where to go or what to do. Also, a lot of energy is squandered in resistance to moving forward in different forms or the other. I find I spend a lot of time wanting or trying to investigate something, but unable to, and then I try to investigate this state, but am unable to. I've spent a lot of time noting "can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, non-investigating, not-looking, not-looking, not doing it, not doing it, not meditating, not meditating" and that works for a while, but eventually it just catches up with me, it seems.

I don't know how this stuff is for others, but I find that meditation has been incredibly difficult and all-consuming for about as long as I've really been committed to it (the last two years).

RE: Question... significant happening or false alarm?

Ian And — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:49:42 GMT

S I:

I usually meditate in the morning before work for half an hour or so, and lately I'd been feeling like it wasn't going anywhere - I wasn't concentrating well, I just kept finding myself again lost in thoughts. This has gone on for a few months I'd say - I wasn't getting the same nice clear feeling after rising from the cushion, sometimes it felt a bit of a waste of time but I got on with it anyway.

It is never a waste of time, as long as you have some foundation in the teaching to fall back on to encourage you to continue during these self-perceived "drought" times. While this practice is certainly more than just studying the academic aspects of what was taught (the Dhamma), it is equally more than just the practical aspects of the meditation practice in and of itself. These two aspects must be linked and go hand in hand if you are to experience any kind of confidence in the teaching enough to inform you of their personal value within your own life. Right now, from what you have presented, it seems as though your practice is more oriented toward the practical aspects of the meditation practice, rather than also taking into consideration learning about the Dhamma.

You can't expect to read a book like Mindfulness in Plain English (or even Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha) and then think that you have exposed yourself to everything you need to know. You have to learn to use what you learn on the academic side and how to take that knowledge into the practical meditation side. There's a give and a take and a balancing act going on, if you really want to learn how to end dissatisfaction (dukkha) and then begin gaining confidence in your ability to adjust positively to the changing aspects of physical life, thus ending dissatisfaction and opening up to a wider and more positive appreciation of life and your place in it. It takes time, and it is a gradual process. But a process about which the more you realize, the more you appreciate what you are gradually learning.

Some days will be good days. Others will be not so good (that is, in terms of how we perceive them). If you are working with equanimity in your practice, then you will let the good and the bad slide gently off your back, and won't be overly discouraged by the bad nor overly encouraged by the good. From your description, you seem to be working well with this. Keep it up.

S I:

So on to today... meditated in the morning, was more back to my normal not-great sessions of late. However I noticed that especially as today's gone on I've definitely felt a shift in my mood - I've been more happy, quite confident, more relaxed (had a quiet day in work which I'm sure helped that) more in-the-moment. Even now I'm feeling an additional clarity that I don't normally have.

Which finally leads me to the question - does this have any significance? Is it something in the progress of insight going on or did I just happen to have a good session that's left me with a lingering afterglow (after all it was only 24h ago)... has something happened (like a mild A&P) or am I just wasting your valuable time with my ramblings ;) or any advice in general?

You had a good day, that's all. But as far as I can tell from what information you've provided, no "progress of insight" or anything like that. You experienced what it feels like to have a clear, uncluttered mind, not being bothered by outside influences (a "quiet day at work") that might spoil or upset the natural positive flow of events. You got a taste of what it might be like if you keep on practicing and begin to make some real breakthroughs that will change the way you see and experience things in the future. It's a good thing. But nothing to write home about quite yet.

As far as helping you to get more out of what you are doing, I liked Florian's suggestion about "recalling, remembering the state prior to sitting (aka "inclining the mind towards it"), resolving to get there again by doing the practice that took you there. . ." This is more of a parlor type trick to trick the mind, but it works, and it works very well if you understand the mechanism behind how it works. When one is still working at clarifying one's mind, training it to obey one's wishes, it helps to give the mind some direction before hand to go by. Therefore, if you spend a bit of time before meditating, recalling all the aspects of a previous "good session" and how you got there, recalling how it felt and such, the mind has a much better idea of where you want to go and how to get back there. It works as a kind of pre-hypnotic suggestion for the mind, giving the mind a road map to go by. You tell the mind where you want to go, and the mind takes you back there in the present moment. That is, as long as it is able to make contact with undistracted concentration on the pleasantness of the past experience.

As far as general advice is concerned, if it is at all possible, I would encourage you to find a good Buddhist meditation teacher or guide to help you. Someone with whom you have trust who can be a good role model and friend on the path. There's only so much one can learn from reading books and using the Internet to learn by, without having any one-on-one human contact. You should also take your time in choosing this person. If it's possible, make sure they embody enough of the Dhamma in their own actions and how they live their life that they can be a positive inspiration for your own practice.

RE: Help: Disappearing breath, energy releases & emotions (long!&a

S P — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:15:00 GMT

Interesting. Sadly the sexual component of the kundalini experience came and went in the first year and never returned, and all the other stuff it brought (mainly emotional mess) has wiped out any interest in it. These are the times I'm glad states are impermanent and change.

RE: Help: Disappearing breath, energy releases & emotions (long!&a

Crazy Wisdom — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:33:55 GMT

With regards to what Bruno said about orgasms being depleting for women or not, what I have read in books and what women have told me is that they experience clitoral orgasms as depleting and yang whereas g-spot a-spot and vaginal orgasms are more yin and energizing. THis however varies a bit from person to person and with a lot of relaxation I think it might change somewhat and clitoral orgasms can be less depleting, maybe energizing.

RE: Question... significant happening or false alarm?

Florian Weps — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:33:35 GMT

Hi S,

Welcome to the Dharma Overground. Good to have you here, I hope you find what you're looking for.

That experience was certainly significant: you noticed that your practice actually does something, that progress and development is not just possible but real, that there is a "stratum of mind" (to use Kenneth's term) available to you which you were not previously aware of, and it's all right there in your own experience. Neat, isn't it?

As with anything new that happens in meditation, try to repeat it. If it is repeatable, you'll learn more about it; if it was a one-off thing, well, those occur as well.

Quick tip on "repeat it" - don't get too hung up on searching for the experience, or trying to find your way back to it. Instead, trust that what you were doing was what took you to that place; for example, if you were concentrating on the breath sensation, that is what moved your mind to that place, i.e. don't try to move your mind directly. Further, recalling, remembering the state prior to sitting (aka "inclining the mind towards it"), resolving to get there again by doing the practice that took you there can be very helpful. Experiment a bit.

If you wish, you can post a start-to-finish description of your sit, including as many experiential details as you like, but omittion interpretation. That will make it easier to get a picture of what you are up to.

Cheers,
Florian

Question... significant happening or false alarm?

S I — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:04:51 GMT

Hey guys,

First of all a quick introduction... I read this forum every so often, got into Buddhism and meditation a couple of years back when I went on a bit of a mission to try and improve my confidence, mood and all that good stuff, read a few books, eventually found my way to meditation. So I've been practising in some way or another for those 2 years. Mostly just sitting trying to pay attention to my breath for 10-30 minutes a day, most days each week. I've not done any retreats or had formal teaching, just self taught from the net and in particular "Mindfulness In Plain English" and latterly MCTB. I found my way to Kenneth Folk's site earlier this year, and naturally it wasn't long before I stumbled across and read MCTB. Anyway I can have a tendency to ramble so I'll cut it short... basically I feel like something might or might not have happened last night.

I usually meditate in the morning before work for half an hour or so, and lately I'd been feeling like it wasn't going anywhere - I wasn't concentrating well, I just kept finding myself again lost in thoughts. This has gone on for a few months I'd say - I wasn't getting the same nice clear feeling after rising from the cushion, sometimes it felt a bit of a waste of time but I got on with it anyway.

Last night I decided to have a late evening session, around 10pm.My practice has been a bit erratic this week, certainly none that morning and the one before, so I thought I'd squeeze in a session before bed. After an initial disturbance I felt myself doing better than I'd done for a long time - I was nicely fixed on my breath, it was coming naturally, thoughts becoming more distant and less nagging, enough so that I felt that old clear, peaceful feeling that I'd gotten before from meditation especially when I first started.

After 20 minutes or so I couldn't concentrate as much, but I still had the clear feeling. Just like with my best sessions, I soon got up and went about my business, feeling nice and relaxed. When I went to bed it seemed to take me a while to fall asleep, but not in the restless way that sleeplessness usually presents itself to me; I was just lying feeling lovely and chilled out, no tossing and turning. I got to sleep eventually, and even though it wasn't as much as I normally need I feel fine today.

So on to today... meditated in the morning, was more back to my normal not-great sessions of late. However I noticed that especially as today's gone on I've definitely felt a shift in my mood - I've been more happy, quite confident, more relaxed (had a quiet day in work which I'm sure helped that) more in-the-moment. Even now I'm feeling an additional clarity that I don't normally have.

Which finally leads me to the question - does this have any significance? Is it something in the progress of insight going on or did I just happen to have a good session that's left me with a lingering afterglow (after all it was only 24h ago)... has something happened (like a mild A&P) or am I just wasting your valuable time with my ramblings ;) or any advice in general ? Ask any questions if you want. I don't feel my life's been turned around, more just that I've taken some sort of step forward, and it's always good to get some outside opinions to keep me in check, especially since my practice has mostly been something I keep to myself.

Thanks and much love
S

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