Dealing with the Dark Night

RE: What's the difference?

Pavel O. — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:01:23 GMT

You can fall back, this is pretty normal me thinks (I went through the A&P 2 or 3 times before I started practicing). Also, the stage before the A&P can be quite unpleasant (and could be mistaken for the Dark Night). Lastly, depression hits a lot of people, I think that it could be mistaken for the Dark Night quite easily (ie. it's more likely that it is a Dark Night if there is a huge mystical experience of the kind described in MCTB preceding it). But once you start permanently practicing there should be less falling back (and it never happened to me that I would fall back from the Dark Night anyway).

There are lots of great discussions on this map stuff here on the Dharma Overground (some of which answer your questions in great detail), rummage around and you should find them.

All the best.

RE: What's the difference?

Michael D. Kaup — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:08:13 GMT

Pavel,
Appreciated. Most definitely helpful. My reason for asking: For my own progress on the path of insight based on my experience on the cushion, I place myself in the A and P. Yet I feel that Dark Night like symptoms were what brought me to practice in the first place. Does this make sense? Is it possible in cases our sitting practice has to play catch-up with our life practice, or that our life practice has to play catch-up with our sitting practice? I wonder how these kind of phenomenon effect each and influence each other through the path of insight.

RE: Hi all

J Groove — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:13:40 GMT

Hi Andrew.
If you haven't already done so, you might consider reading Daniel's book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. It's available at his Web site, www.InteractiveBuddha.net, as a free PDF. You'd probably find it very helpful on some of this stuff.
Best regards,
Joel

RE: Hi all

Andrew P. — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:41:19 GMT

Thank you, J Groove, for your prompt and insightful response.

Well, there was one experience in particular. I had managed to let the mind calm down quite a lot, and at the end of the sit I did what I always do, nothing special, I made the volition "ok let's turn mindfulness on this state of mind, and investigate the various corners / strands of thought / assorted debris etc). So I turned mindfulness on the mind, and I felt mindfulness flow into mind, like water flowing into water, and after a few moments the realization came - 'I and my mind are not the same thing!' I have not been able to repeat this experience, cos now I'm trying, see? It happened because I wasn't trying anything special, just doing the practice...

So I do have this sense of mind as being something that I am responsible for, that I must care for and attend to, but I am not sure any more exactly where 'I' fit into all this. I can still give in to anger and ill-will, and can feel quite hurt when people insult and/or ridicule me. It is on the basis of this clinging, as well as the identification with mindful awareness ("I" felt aware of "my mind") that I would not think myself to be sotapanna, which from my limited understanding entails an actual and factual experience of the self-less nature of the five khandhas. So clearly, I don't know what level (if any) I am on...and in any case I ought to not worry it, and just practice more and get my lazy butt off the computer chair...see what I mean? ;)

With metta.

RE: Hi all

J Groove — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:16:42 GMT

Hi Andrew.
I can certainly relate, as a parent, to the dichotomy of having an image of myself as an enlightened Buddhist and the reality of standing there screaming at the top of my lungs at my innocent, 7-year-old twins. It is a horrible feeling. The challenge of being present enough to truly see what your children are is very great. Those moments when you do see this are precious indeed. Parents must be super-aware or else they are totally doomed to just repeat whatever patterns they grew up with--right down to the exact gestures and tones of voice that both sets of parents used with them. I wish I could say that I was present all the time and never engaged in bullying, nagging, screaming and so forth. Alas, it is not true. However, I think meditation has helped me to be present and calm and fair-minded much more often than I would have been otherwise.

Jack Kornfield encourages people to think of kids as live-in Zen masters who mercilessly push all our buttons and hold our hypocrisies up to us in a mirror. I think of this a lot. Very helpful.

Regarding the dark night, if you can look back and point to a single meditation experience that stands out above all the rest and was so profound for you that you might describe it as an initial awakening or a powerful glimpse of enlightenment, then you might well have crossed the Arising & Passing Away of Phenomena, which you will see referred to on these boards as the A&P.

If you've crossed the A&P, you probably are stuck in the dark night, along with however many millions of other yogis worldwide. On this forum, you will find actual help in getting out of it, rather than conciliatory platitudes about it.
I hope you make it through this tough time.
-Joel

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

S. Pro — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:27:21 GMT

I haven´t although I assume that I had small glimpses. That is open to speculation!
You asked a good question!
Sven

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Eduardo Crespo — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:54:36 GMT

Alright I got in contact with Daniel Ingram and I'm going to see what I can do. How many of you actually got to enlightenment?

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

S. Pro — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:53:00 GMT

Eduardo Crespo:

Thank you Michael for your reply. Yes I am getting professional help... I have for years. The thing is I am sick of these experiences without even knowing why I have them. The countless professionals I have been to don't even know exactly why I am feeling this way. I do want to follow the path. I just don't know exactly what to do.

Hi Eduardo

I´m sorry to hear that you obviously feel like crap.Or even worse. I assume that seeking help from psychologists/psychiatrists is obviously not helping to much. I´m not saying to stop seeing them or to quit medication as all help one can get is worth a try.
Maybe you should take some radical measures and go on a long term retreat?
What is your suffering now can be the great catalyst towards enlightenment and change. The Christian tradition is very much based on it and the surrender to the suffering.
For short term relief maybe try out yoga, just to have a strong physical dimension to base upon.
I really hope you follow meditation practice.
Take care
Sven

RE: What's the difference?

Pavel O. — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:21:50 GMT

Hey Michael,

This will not be a very thorough answer to your question so it would be great if someone else was to tackle it a bit better.

The thing about the stages of insight (Dark Night included) is that while they are symptoms of insight practice (which may or may not be meditation based, since for example the A&P is easily accessible through other means such as drugs), they too have emotional, perceptual, psychological, even physical to some extent, symptoms themselves. In the case of the Dark Night the best method of illustration is to compare it to a strong and persistent case of depression (even though different people experience it differently but this is often-times a common feature). The problem with this is that some people may then believe that they are in the Dark Night whereas in fact they are simply having psychological difficulties. Equally, I have met a fair share of people who were almost certainly in the midst of a Dark Night but did not believe that such a thing was possible, existed, or could possibly be happening to them, blaming it instead on their psychology. The problem with this is that therapy can not resolve what is being presented by the Dark Night, the only thing that goes through this is insight. This results in what is here referred to as a chronic Dark Night yogi (someone more or less permanently suffering from Dark Night symptoms).

So to return to your question, Dark Night is brought about through the practice of insight (conscious or not), but it hits all aspects of ones life and experience, same as the other stages. There are some common features to some of these stages that make diagnosis possible.

As for a difference between insight gained through meditation or through daily life, there are a lot of differences in how they manifest and in how one relates to them (but they are the same thing). It is, for example, very easy to believe the A&P to be something it is not, or it is easy to blame the Dark Night on outside influences or psychological makeup, if one is unaware of what these things actually are. Also, I would argue that it is very near impossible to get good at this stuff, or to get a couple of paths, let alone getting enlightened, without a very serious and determined practice, I do not think that this stuff is easily achievable in daily life (unless one was to do insight in daily life, which may be very difficult early on).

Was there a specific reason why you asked this question?

All the best,

Pavel

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Pavel O. — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:52:49 GMT

Hey Eduardo,

While you can most definitely do this (as in, start an insight practice and get enlightened) alone, there are times and issues, not to mention the difficulties of starting a practice, that would be greatly helped by having an instructor or a teacher. Insight is a tough path to walk alone.

The ones I am aware of who are first and foremost great and kind people, as well as enlightened and kick-ass teachers, are to be found here:

Alan Chapman Open Enlightenment
Kenneth Folk and his Dharma
Shinzen Young with his Website

Have a look around their sites and see whether you like what they have to say, like what and how they teach and then perhaps try to get in contact with them. This is by no means a requisite to strong and successful practice but it may help get things going and keeping them on track.

All the best and may you find what you are looking for.

Pavel

What's the difference?

Michael D. Kaup — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:27:58 GMT

There is a great deal of talk about the Dark Night, about entering the Dark Night at some earlier time in ones life, and about the specific Nanas experienced on the path of insight we call the Dark Night. I ask, how does the dark night differ as a specific meditation state, vs. as an existential state experienced through life?

This ties into a broader more general question regarding contradictory reports regarding the difficulty, and the accessibility of various insights and attainments. By this I mean that in some cases the jhanas, the nanas, path knowledge ect. are held to be difficult to attain, difficult to enter, and evaluated with great scrutiny. In others, insights and attainments are spoken of as having been experienced at mundane times of ones life, that is to say, before a person really began practicing.

Thus, my question is: What is the difference between insights and attainments experienced casually, in life, when one is not really practicing vs. insights and attainments experienced specifically through meditation?

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Eduardo Crespo — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:20:55 GMT

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Michael D. Kaup — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:22:16 GMT

Eduardo,
How are you holding up? Is living through your Dark Night leading to behavior destructive to your well being? I'm sure that your experience is highly unpleasant to say the least, so I ask, Can you, within your current circumstances take up a path such as this? If you see and feel that, yes you can endure it; yes, you have a great desire to see the true nature of this experience; and that yes, you strongly wish for liberation, then it certainly looks like this practice may be the vehicle to take you there. Keep practicing!

However if this all feels insurmountable, if you are harming yourself mentally or physically, please seek an immediate remedy from a professional. Consider this a bandage to stop the bleeding. It will be of some immediate relief, though there will still be a wound. A wound which the dharma will heal.

Understand that if you decide psychological help will aid you, it may be of incredible help. At the same time, that help will probably be somewhat reductionistic in its understanding, and not understand your dealing of the dark night and insights. But because that help doesn't understand EVERYTHING about your experience doesn't mean it won't be helpful in bringing you to a place where you really CAN practice this path.

Remember that Vipassina, the entire Buddhadharma, is about Liberation, Freedom. That freedom does not mean that you are somehow separate from this world, from feelings, from the pleasant and the painful. Liberation is being free within the stuff of this world, feelings, pleasant and painful experiences. If you're seeing into the nature of impermanence, and non-self, the insight that negative feelings are impermanent, that negative feelings are without-self, without intrinsic existence should also arise. If you are clinging, grasping at your negative experiences, and relating to them as a sense of self, you will have a difficult time indeed.

Peace,

Michael

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Eduardo Crespo — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:42:42 GMT

Thank you everyone for your input. I apologize for the long time I took to answer. I had to be away from home for a bit of the summer. I noticed many people mentioned retreats. I'm about to begin my senior year so I don't know if I could even have time for a retreat and I am under 18 so I don't know how that would sit with my parents. I live in the South Florida area just in case any of you know of any good centers around here. When I note what I do is I just become repeatedly aware of the sensation then it begins to speed up then it ceases. When it ceases its hard for me to note and I get lost. Sometimes I get the sensation of shaking from side to side and it diminishes. I get it sometimes as I'm falling asleep or one time really bad as I was doing acupuncture. It's very hard for me to note using words and labeling because I kind of stumble and go too slow. What must I do? I'm getting very tired of living like this. If any of you are up for a private conversation just let me know. I'd be perfectly willing to if I have the time.

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:30:18 GMT

Continued in this thread.

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:07:33 GMT

Florian Weps:

An update is long overdue -

(...)

What's a bit of a surprise is what I call "tuning into not-self" during everyday life, which now increasingly often (several times a day) occurs on its own, not requiring my conscious intention to turn up, though I can also trigger it reliably by just looking at my hands, whether they are still or typing or chopping onions or whatever.

when the shift happens, do your hands wind up looking different?

*

Florian Weps:

I haven't resumed a sitting schedule yet; but I find myself doing some kind of practice once a day regardless. My current favorite is: playing with the separate visual senses of focus and location of seeing, placing the visual focus at something "out there" while placing the sense of seeing somewhere else, such as just before the eyes or even into the non-visual space behind the visual field. Oscillation between these two points starts up and, if left to develop, the sense of distance between the two loses its significance and fruition - that little jump in events - occurs, followed by the ordinary, clean soberness I've come to associate with its aftermath. This works with eyes open and closed (the oscillation thing, that is; I only got fruition with eyes closed so far).

after i got 1st path, i never resumed a sitting schedule quite like i had before.. i just practised in daily life constantly, spending most of my days at home alone (this wasn't difficult as i was self-employed). i also started playing with the sense of visual focus, too, similar to how you're describing.

on that note, have you ever gotten the impression that what you're seeing 'out there' and the other place (in the non-visual space behind the visual field) were somehow trading places?

and have you ever gotten the sense that what you see (or otherwise experience) at any given moment is only different from anything else (which you could experience at any other given moment) because they are 'at different planes of focus'?

*

Florian Weps:

I'm not acutely aware of cycling, but the passes through the fear ñana are often very noticeable in everyday life, and present as strong and, well, fearful energy sensations in the chest area. On the subject of energy sensations: I regularly (but not always) get a "superconductor rod" energy sensation extending from the crown down to the abdomen -very solid, straight, smooth, and "bright", with "bright" in the energetic sensation sense, not visual at all.

do you notice any discernable movement along this 'rod' as you continue to cycle?

tarin

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Sun, 08 Aug 2010 15:50:21 GMT

An update is long overdue -

Vacations are over, the bad cough is gone, too. Life in general: So far, things are holding up under the pressures of work and spells of bad weather and so on. Actually, "holding up" is a bad way of putting it, as that implies some kind of strain on something, or something being put to the test, when there is nothing being tested or under strain, just so unremarkable and plain. Even the sense of things being plain and unspectacularly obvious is nothing extraordinary.

What's a bit of a surprise is what I call "tuning into not-self" during everyday life, which now increasingly often (several times a day) occurs on its own, not requiring my conscious intention to turn up, though I can also trigger it reliably by just looking at my hands, whether they are still or typing or chopping onions or whatever.

Practice: I haven't resumed a sitting schedule yet; but I find myself doing some kind of practice once a day regardless. My current favorite is: playing with the separate visual senses of focus and location of seeing, placing the visual focus at something "out there" while placing the sense of seeing somewhere else, such as just before the eyes or even into the non-visual space behind the visual field. Oscillation between these two points starts up and, if left to develop, the sense of distance between the two loses its significance and fruition - that little jump in events - occurs, followed by the ordinary, clean soberness I've come to associate with its aftermath. This works with eyes open and closed (the oscillation thing, that is; I only got fruition with eyes closed so far).

That sense of distance and volume is very interesting, and recently, I've been entering 5th jhana repeatedly just to watch it build up.

I continue to use noting practice, in all kinds of postures and circumstances, for whatever (usually short) stetches of time available.

I'm not acutely aware of cycling, but the passes through the fear ñana are often very noticeable in everyday life, and present as strong and, well, fearful energy sensations in the chest area. On the subject of energy sensations: I regularly (but not always) get a "superconductor rod" energy sensation extending from the crown down to the abdomen -very solid, straight, smooth, and "bright", with "bright" in the energetic sensation sense, not visual at all.

I'll post a start-to-end sit description once my long-term sitting schedule has picked up again, which I expect it will, now, with everyone back to school/work.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Recently (re)Crossed A&P - Advice Requested

C T K — Sat, 07 Aug 2010 23:01:31 GMT

Just a heads up to anyone who's interested, I've since distilled from my ramblings above a more focused thread regarding technique...interesting developments have been in...ah, development . Jump over to the link below and chime in if you like:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/685558

Thanks DO!

-chris

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Daniel M. Ingram — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 19:47:48 GMT

In answer to the question at the beginning of this thread, namely is it possible for a 6 year old to cross the A&P and hit the Dark Night, the answer is a definite yes. Young kids can get into all sorts of stuff. I have been lucid dreaming since at least 5 that I can recall and possibly before that. I have a very strong memory of what I know know to be the 4th samatha jhana attained when I was 3 (this known by the house I was living in at the time), which I wouldn't re-attain with that level of clarity for over 20 years.

Punjaji, aka "The Buddha of Lucknow", says he got enlightened at age 7 and had no idea that he had done anything interesting or that it was different from what others had experienced until later when he began talking to people and realized that something in the way he understood reality was very different.

Lots of other people have had strong meditation experiences at early ages, so this is not as strange or as uncommon as it would seem.

RE: Recently (re)Crossed A&P - Advice Requested

C K — Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:29:38 GMT

Thanks for your thoughts on noting, Derek. Even though I haven't plunged into full noting practice just yet, I have noticed that when distracting thoughts come up in daily life, noting does kick in.

Some updates:

-I'm definitely back to the the land of "mere mortals" after the high of A&P. The purplish mind-space I see when I close my eyes is how a confusing, scattered haze, ranging from 5-10+Hz, as opposed to the concentrated, jhana-inducing third eye of before.

-My attention naturally wants to rest in that space, however discordant and unfocused it is. From there, it still feels like I can sense many more sensations (although I don't feel the vibrations like I did during A&P) -- my object, then, seems to be that space, and I can also incorporate sound as a focus for the 3C - especially impermanence and not-self. I wonder, however, if I'm not penetrating deep enough by just settling into this space and thus not sharpening my perceptual skills? It's hard to tell at this phase.

-The pressure has now extended to just above the roof of my mouth when practicing and then moving back to my sinuses at other times. It's quite distracting and seems to pick up in intensity when I gain some concentration. I inevitably end up focusing on it for some time (as it's the sensation that presents most strongly), attempting to break up its seeming solidity and examining any associated feelings that come up...but it's quite difficult.

-Lastly, since I was becoming to confused and straining to "find the breath" while attempting noting practice at the nose, I'm going to try at the abdomen as recommended by the practice. I'm finding that my abdomen actually moves very little in initial attempts but then sometimes I'll unconsciously begin to exaggerate the movement. Perhaps this is just a beginner's mistake, like with forcing the breath at the nose or elsewhere?

So I'm feeling quite confused about technique and not sure whether to put in several weeks with a new one or not. Plus, I read in another post by Daniel that mentioned how his noting practice during Dark Night became much broader given the nature of attention during that phase. I'm wondering how others found their practice change during Dark Night and whether they consciously altered their technique at any point.

Thoughts?

Thanks for reading.

RE: Recently (re)Crossed A&P - Advice Requested

Derek A Cameron — Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:03:58 GMT

I can only offer one small comment, and that is that noting creates a center of knowingness above and beyond simple tracking of the breath sensations.

Once this center of knowingness has built up some momentum, it will automatically (or with very little additional effort) carry forward into your daily life.

Recently (re)Crossed A&P - Advice Requested

C K — Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:17:22 GMT

Greetings everyone. About 1.5 weeks ago I went through A&P over a ~5 day period, as confirmed by Daniel over email (yes, I'm one of the 99% who contacted him thinking they made path but didn't ). I wrote about it some in this thread if you're curious about the details - many thanks again to all who responded.

My first A&P event was about 7 years ago, an incredibly intense experience of nonduality induced by LSD, which dredged up a host of traumatic "stuff" issues causing me to lose touch with consensual relative reality for a few months. Several years of intense Dark Night ensued and since I did not start practicing until last fall, and not seriously until this summer, it's been a rough ride.

Anyway, I had some questions now that I'm back at the beginning and at least have a sense of the territory and a burgeoning practice to hopefully navigate this through to the end:

1) I re-crossed this recent A&P event through a "choiceless awareness" approach - anchoring attention at the breath (below the nose), just getting really relaxed, and making effort to be aware of as many sensations as possible and knowing them through the 3 Characteristics. After some time I feel vibrations running through my body, so I pay attention to those as well as anything else that comes into my awareness -- I'll sometimes try to "stretch" it to include a wider zone of awareness, such as sound or my lower body.

However, Daniel really recommends noting practice and many people here have seemed to have made a lot of progress with it. Is it worth switching over at this point, especially since it can help with Dark Night?

The problem is that just starting out now with noting, I can only note a few things at a time whereas I can sense many more sensations than that. If I try to speed up, it feels "forced" and I start to tense my body. Will slowing down for a while to really get noting down pay off in the end? Has anyone made it to stream entry just by choiceless awareness?

Right now I actually practice a hybrid form -- using noting when distracting thoughts or sounds come up, but otherwise keeping the mind quiet and attentive to the 3C of sensations.

2) As for noting practice itself, is it ok to focus on the nose instead of the stomach as is recommended? That's the location that presents itself most to me, though I'd be willing to relocate if necessary. Also, there's a lot of tension at and below my stomach (back/joint issues -- see below), but I'm not sure if this is one of those cases where I should plunge into that and struggle through, even if my concentration/insight takes a hit.

However, I also notice how I don't get as much of a physical feel for the breath at the nose, as it becomes incredibly subtle for me rather quickly and thus difficult to find then notice the sensations of the breath. Is this just something I need to work at, refining my awareness and attention to the point where I can find it again?

Then again, when I'm noting the rising and falling of the breath at the nose, the zone of attention seems to shrink and becomes more one-pointed as I make effort to notice those subtler sensations, thus seemingly cutting me off from the broader awareness that picks up more sensations.

Is this a problem in terms of gaining insight? That is, even if I'm attempting to discern the 3C, could the attention become "too" one-pointed?

3) The pressure at the third eye region I mentioned in that first post has dropped down, seemingly into my sinuses. During longer sits, I'll sometimes hear a small click or crack -- it seems like the energy is trying to break through and balance out in my head or something.

Anyone else experience a similar shift in pressure after A&P or at another stage?

Also, I'll catch my jaws unconsciously moving around when the pressure becomes really intense during meditation, as if to help the energy or what have you "break through". Usually upon observation, the jaws will relax, and then I'll focus on the pressure, mostly attempting to see its impermanence and pierce the illusion of solidity.

Any thoughts on other ways of dealing with this?

4) Likely related, I've had increasingly serious back/joint pain that suspiciously originated around the time of my first A&P. Years of visiting doctors on and off has yielded no signs of a coarse physical injury (although it could be related to a foot injury many years before -- but it's a tenuous connection at best), so I think this is at least partially related to being in Dark Night and/or having other subtle energy imbalances.

In fact, when concentration is good I can feel how the energy has trouble moving down my left arm (which has several tight spots in connected joints in the back), where I feel only a tingling of energy in the palm, whereas my right arm and hand has a feeling of "smoother" energy flow.

My wildly speculative theory is that the pressure above is related to the pain below, as perhaps since I've begun cultivation and meditation, my system is now trying to balance out or something.

I've been quite lucky to be introduced to two practices that I think will really help with this - yin yoga and qi gong. I've just started the former and I can tell it will really help. I'll be beginning the latter in a few weeks.

Any other recommendations for energy work and recovery from these sorts of long term injuries?

5) Lastly, thoughts on applying insight in daily life? I've been practicing a lighter form of my hybrid choiceless awareness/noting method ("feeling" impermanence as I walk by noticing any vibrations and sensing as many things as possible at once as well as noting distracting thoughts or strong feelings).

Anything else that people have found to work when not engaged in activities requiring much concentration?

Hm, alright I've probably inundated the forum with enough questions at the moment. I haven't noticed anything too intense yet in terms of Dissolution, although the ease of meditation and concentration power has DEFINITELY dropped off, but I'm keep my senses alert and doing my best while meditating, even if progress feels like somewhere between paltry and nonexistent.

Given my first incredibly intense A&P, this was minor in comparison (thought definitely significant and yielding some pretty profound insight both in ultimate and relative terms...at least for me). Perhaps (hopefully?) this time through won't be as bad...however, I'm not counting on it.

Lastly, just to give an idea of how my practice has progressed, I resumed practicing between 1-2 hours starting in mid-june after a 4 month hiatus (having only started 3 months before that with no knowledge of 3C, etc), and then in mid-July I went to 3-5 hours (which is when I read Daniel's book and began applying the 3C and so forth). I'm now averaging about 1-1.25 hours a sit.

Any other advice at this point would be welcome as well.

Ok, once again I'm incredibly grateful for this forum being here and of course for Daniel's work in MCTB. I hope at some point I'll be able to give back some of the immeasurable knowledge and help I've received to aid others on the path.

Thanks for everyone's time and help!

-Chris

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

chamaeleon yogi — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:59:03 GMT

Hi, here's the chief wallower in self pity speaking. Just had another party with religious physics talk, or the other way round, I dont remember, anyway...curt cobain is dead, michael jackson went and I am also feeling very strange... ooh..

gobshite.

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

triple think — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 09:12:14 GMT

In my experience also the tai chi and similar movement practices are very beneficial and complement other practices very well.

Using the methodology common here over the last few years I have reflected back from an early path fruition at fourteen to a fairly clear sense of when the A/P most likely first showed up for me at twelve. The dark night cycles of the next path after the fruition hit me in my mid teens and often was considerably worse than the dark night cycles before that fruition.

From the present day perspective, thirty years later, if I could travel back to give myself advice on how to proceed at this point to handle the anxiety, restlessness, frustration and depression that I experienced; I would suggest making a strong goal of becoming intimately involved with discovering and investigating equanimity. I think becoming intimate with equanimity in a very deep way is the only real and somewhat profound relief that to an extent compares with the level of relief which are available as ultimate goals of the entire process.

I would suggest using two approaches to equanimity. One is the brahmavihara meditations, which help both with relating with the external world and other people in a more healthy and wholesome way and with coming to ever greater understanding of joy, kindness, compassion and equanimity as active energies and attitudes. I also suggest concentration practice or jhana of one kind or another to steady and calm the mind in ever greater peace.

As you spend some regular daily time with these practices, during those times where maintaining these themes is difficult, you will find plenty of opportunity for continuing vipassana. As I see it vipassana is more or less a matter of keen discernment which is something that can always be practiced and fits together very well with these kinds of meditations.

may you soon know well how to be well and at ease within and without
may all beings come to know the greatest possible peace and wellbeing

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

C C C — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 06:30:06 GMT

Pavel, the only guiding philosophy I adhere to strongly is "what works" (as opposed to "what should work" and "what sounds intelligent and logical", both of which may not actually work in the real world). I have seen the "what should work" thing fail so many times in a range of real life scenarios (business, relationships), both in my own actions and those of others I have observed. For me the bottom line is "did you get what you wanted?", because if you didn't, then the technique or approach is wrong, or your application of it was wrong, (and that includes things like lack of persistence).

So if someone is using the same approach over and over and is getting nowhere, despite tweaking the technique and despite good teachers and advice, maybe the approach is totally wrong for the problem. What I'm saying is that if vipassana doesn't cure your 'dark night', then throw away that technique. If it does cure it, well fine, I have no argument. I felt like this particular case needed a different approach.

You're right about me often having a confrontational attitude in here, and I often finish posts thinking "there was a bit of venom in that.....what motivates me to speak that way?". Once all the layers of feel-good ego-defense excuses are peeled away, the answer to this question is: I still don't have quite enough self-acceptance. I need still more - that's the core of it. If you could see where I have come from to where I am now, big changes have happened. But I don't like pulling punches - if I feel pissed off, that's the way I'm going to write. So when you see me posting in a different, more pleasant style, you'll know I've changed - it won't be fake.

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Pavel O. — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 11:25:16 GMT

Hey CCC,

well, speaking of vipassana in relation to your psychological and physical well-being is kind of strange in terms of the technique and its results not being designed to affect those things. Vipassana is a method of realizing the truth about the present moment and it depends on the practitioner wherever he/she decides to do something else with it. I fear that the main problem lies in people deciding to take up vipassana in order to resolve their shit (which also makes it difficult to progress in insight), they may feel that since their attempts in other areas have not helped much, that vipassana/enlightenment will magically cure them of their ailments. I had to very painfully investigate my hopes and desires in this area after I got third path, the fact that my much enhanced perceptual clarity, knowledge of moment-to-moment experience and the ability to see some fundamental features of experiential reality did not resolve my shit (actually, I was able to see some of my shit much more clearly) was painful to say the least.

So the problem does not lie with vipassana not delivering what it is not supposed to deliver, the problem lies with the practitioner (and the attitude, intentions and expectations). To be honest, having the gifts that practice gives (most clearly recognized when compared to experience preceding the attainment of a new path) and the resulting clarity, understanding and equanimity (also a growing ability to identify weak spots and a certain strength not to shy away) is a great help in resolving and working with all other problems. In another thread you mention that the practice of morality (which, by the way, in Buddhist terms is meant to mean the practice of living /including psychology/, rather than simply the practice of ethics) is unhelpful and yet it is work in this area that resolves such problems as the ones you mention here and elsewhere (unless they are of a fundamental nature in which case insight is the cure) - actually, the things that you mention here that helped you fall in that category (if the definition that I mention is applied).

So it is more to do with a practice that does not stop with vipassana, one that also includes a healthy attitude and helpful expectations. But the gifts that vipassana brings are vast and life-changing.

Another thing that should be kept in mind is that a lot of the problems that people on this forum go through are most certainly insight-based, in that some of the stages that a meditator goes through have a very intense psychological impact. In these cases vipassana really is the cure. Perhaps you have not experienced a Dark Night, in which case it is only right that you decide to treat yourself with other means, whereas myself and other people here have been unfortunate enough to live in its shadow for long periods of time, vipassana being the only method known to us (having tried other means) to move forward. The difficulty here is to recognize the difference between Dark Night symptoms and personality flaws/psychological difficulties/bad attitude/unhelpful expectations/... They both have a different treatment and yet vipassana helps with the latter in that whoever has the clarity and equanimity won though practice will be able to use those in other areas of life.

It has been mentioned many times before that it is possible to be enlightened and an asshole so it is up to us to try to do better. I believe that treating a Dark Night with vipassana is one of the most responsible things that a human being can do (as it benefits everyone).

I am very happy that you are feeling better and that you are finding ways to help yourself. Perhaps it is time to address why you feel the need to attack/confront insight meditation (and its practitioners) on an insight forum. Perhaps it is time to investigate why it is that you preach what you do. - are you doing this for the benefit of us all? - are you taking responsibility for your actions, in the knowledge that what you say is helpful to others and true to the best of your ability to discern?

Truly and only all the best to you.

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

C C C — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 04:23:15 GMT

Hi Bruno, yes, I have considered that. Having been on meds continuousy for about 6 years and having suffered the same extreme mental suffering you describe, I was able to come off them altogether by the combination of both vipassana and self-acceptance exercises. Previous attempts (at least 10) to come off meds resulted in excruciating physical and emotional pain, now this latest attempt has lasted about a month. Since stopping, there has been some flu-like aching in the joints which comes and goes a bit, a strong rearing up of anxiety (which I am treating with real-word solutions), but the most important thing is I'm off meds and can function. This has not been possible for 6 years previously.

The effects of the self-acceptance exercises are immediate for me (not sure about others). The immediacy of the feedback gives me a good indication that's it's doing what i want it to do. The after-effects last for an hour to maybe a day, and I need to keep at it each day till it finally 'sinks in'. But even if it doesn't sink in, the practice is easy enough to keep repeating. It did take a lot of 'digging in the dirt' to understand exactly what core beliefs needed changing, and it definitely works, but if you want proof I can't give you that. It is a form of self help, just like meditation....right?

The beneficial effects of the vipassana seemed to be much more related to the physical symptoms. It helped the over-heating, the heavy heavy limbs, the oversleeping/low energy. After practising, I'd get a bad reaction within hours (aching in my joints ++++ and an inability to stay warm no matter what I did), then within 1-2 days a lesser need for meds. I'd only need about 1/2 hour practice repeated a few times. I don't have good concentration, but it still worked.

So that's my story. I realise that what helped me may not be appropriate for others. I remember people used to tell me to exercise but whenever I did it, it would deplete my energy and make me feel worse. "But the research says it helps!!"...well it didn't help me.

I feel like the effects of the vipassana are very robust. But I feel like the effects of the self-acceptance work is what has the potential to cure me, if I can keep at it. It is more potent than meditation in its effect, but less robust (in that it wears off over time and needs repeating).

My take on modern psychiatry is that it continues to creep closer and closer to mindfulness meditation as the core treatment. I agree that psychiatrists and psychologists have very little idea of how the mind works compared to the likes of Daniel, yourself, Chuck, Trent, Adam, etc etc. But they do know about meds, and that is their strong suit.

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Bruno Loff — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:33:51 GMT

This should be made clear for you Eduardo: stream entry is not the end of all these pains, it is just a tremendous relief. It won't tell you how to pick up the pieces of a life broken by a Dark Night, CCC's advice and general psychological stuff seems closer to what that might be like.

If you want to check out the whole self-acceptance thing, go right ahead, maybe it works. To me it sounds too much like self help.

CCC have you thought that feeling better and feeling self acceptance is a result of you taking meds and doing meditation, rather than self acceptance itself being a cause of anything whatsoever? How much did you really test this self acceptance thing? Have you gone through bouts of serious, outstanding mental pain, and did it work then? How can you know it is "self acceptance" unless you do a rigorous test (stop taking meds, stop doing meditation)?

I find that the self-acceptance that I am developing is a result rather than a cause. Couldn't it be that you took meds and did vipassana, got better because of that, and came through thinking, for some reason, that it was all just a matter of "self acceptance"?

A great plus for doing a mindfulness-based practice like mahasi noting. I can tell you that compared to my 2009 depression, this second rough period was a breeze. I was able to keep it together in the sense that I could do things, I would go out of the house, take care of myself properly, have moments of joy, be friendly to others despite myself, etc. I was going through serious mental pain, but still I was able to function. That's why I didn't call it depression, as I have already mentioned in this thread.

Do you think that if you get such an episode of "depressive-like symptoms", your whole "self acceptance" thing will stand? Or do you believe that, having this "self acceptance" thing, no "depressive-like symptoms" will ever happen again?

Anyway, Eduardo, you could try and go to a psychiatrist or psychologist, if you haven't already, and check it out. I personally found that most of them (and certainly all I have personally worked with) have little clue about how the mind actually works.

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

C C C — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:57:06 GMT

Bruno, you have stream entry and yet you have all those symptoms of depression yourself, described in a recent thread. So why would you advocate that Ed attains stream entry when it hasn't worked for you? Are you sure you're not 'dressing up' depression to make it look prettier? All those symptoms Ed describes can be the result of major depression, including the vibrations and swooping feelings, both of which I had before I started meds. I'm now off meds (about 1 month) thanks to a common sense approach that centered around building self acceptance. I also got some help in my physical symptoms from practising vipassana, but that was mild by comparison.

Ed, you grew up as an only adopted child to wealthy parents, separated from your younger sister at age 4.....am I right?

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Bruno Loff — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:10:44 GMT

Ah, well, that is dark night. I mean, as much as I can, with my own personal experience, judge from a short paragraph, you have written the most effective six lines I can think of. That is dark night, and stream entry is the way to go. (I'm assuming you have little or no meditation experience in what follows)

You can get to stream entry in two ways. A gradual, soft, friendly way, which takes a lot of time, or a powerful, hardcore, gung-ho way, which is a lot quicker for this particular goal.

For the first way, I suggest you learn a tai chi form, in a complete and committed way (with a knowledgeable teacher), and do it two times a day. This will make things better, although it may take a long time until you notice serious difference (say, 6 months to 1 year of regular bidaily practice). Eventually this gives you stream entry (a member of our forum, Chuck, got it this way). And it's so cool to do it in the park

For the second way, you can learn vipassana, mahasi noting style:

If you aren't sure that this is what you want to do (that means finding out why you'd want to do it rather than just "do it because someone on a forum said you should"), then I suggest you do Tai Chi instead.
Learn how to do mahasi noting. You can learn how in the book "Practical Insight Meditation" by Mahasi Sayadaw.
Learn what to expect, get a frame of reference, read Daniel Ingram's Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha (MCTB ).
Learn what it means to remain reasonably equanimous with stuff, not to react very violently with more mental junk, even if you're going through a hard time. This is important, because you'll be changing your mind in deep places, and when working in these areas some weird stuff might come up. If you remain equanimous, these things will simply pass and you should be OK (everything just goes away, remember? ), if you don't, you can go nuts.
Learn it well enough that you can answer most of your own questions (like "what if I feel bored during meditation").
Finally, go on retreat and resolve to attain stream entry, and get it.

You might feel drawn towards the hardcore approach, e.g., because it likely feels as if you "just need to get rid of the suffering right now," but a gradual approach to enlightenment has a few merits. It has the advantage of being more stable, and doing it hardcore is something you might find yourself regretting over and over during the more difficult phases. The hardcore approach will give you very clear and obvious evidence that you are really "changing your mind," as a lot of change can happen in a very obvious way in a short amount of time. Furthermore it might leave you with the ability to "keep it together" through almost any situation, as this ability will become a necessity during the hardest moments (read MCTB ).

With regards to your description: you seem to be having insights into impermanence and non satisfactoriness. I got those two, and yes they are horrible.

There are less-unfriendly ways of looking at impermanence and unsatisfactoriness. Impermanence, when you're in a good mood, feels like constant-renovation instead of constant-decay. Non-satisfactoriness kind of evens out things --- instead of believing you'll be happy when you "finally get That Thing I can't have", you know that "even if I get That Thing I wanted but can't have I still wouldn't be satisfied," which kind of sets makes it silly not to just be happy now, and have fun anyway ("if nothing satisfies, one might as well fuck it all and have a laugh").

These different takes on impermanence and unsatisfactoriness have been slowly developing for me over time, and they are not the result of philosophical consideration, they just seem to be what is left of these two insights when the physical and mental pain finally goes away.

And Eduardo, they will go away with these practices. That is a common result of doing them, and you can expect that to happen.

I mean, relief is on the way.

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Eduardo Crespo — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:01:19 GMT

Well I could give more data. For example: All day I feel dissatisfied with everything and nothing makes me happy(even when I put an effort to enjoy life). I feel energetic sensations very often. Some are like swooping inside of me downwards. I get a lot of pains in my solar plexus area, chest, and pressure in my third eye which increases when I concentrate on it. Also I had a terrible experience a couple of months ago where I smoked pot (bad idea I know) and for some reason I just can't enjoy it. Instead I just begin to see everything in frames and suffer more. Then after that I spent days crying about how every moment in life is temporary and everything just goes away (I guess that was insight that hit me hard).

RE: A brief description of the Dark Night and some tips

Pavel O. — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:58:28 GMT

That's an amazing account, thanks a lot!

IMO these stages really are that obvious, both in the Dark Night and other times. If you're humming and hah-ing, saying to yourself "maybe it was this or that", chances are it was just a blip and not a real shift to the next nana. Or else it *was* a shift and the reason for your uncertainty about that is you haven't yet grokked the new nana, in which case you've reached the outer fringe of your current practice by definition, so forget the maps and just practice your arse off. At least, that's been my experience.

It seems to me that the intensity of the nanas, as well as the obviousness of the particular stages has a lot to do with concentration, frequency and duration of meditation and perhaps some other factors (some people go through this stuff more powerfully than others). I only went thought them with the intensity that you mention here once, other times it was a lot less pronounced (the time that I did I was meditating 2-6 hours a day for a number of weeks).

Thanks again for the report, really helpful.

A brief description of the Dark Night and some tips

Just Jules — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:36:35 GMT

I wasn't sure whether to post the following description or not as I wrote it mostly to clear out some of the ghosts the experience left behind. But it does contain some practical advice and perhaps someone will find it useful.

I just returned from a 10-day retreat (which I have written about in the Dharma Diagnostic Clinic). I had read Prisoner Greco's Reformed Slacker's Guide in the days prior and found it very motivating, so managed to be fairly disciplined even during the Dark Night stages and I think managed to punch through to Equanimity a couple times. Crucially, I applied Prisoner Greco's instruction to "meditate even when there doesn't seem to be any point" for hours at a stretch during the frustration of Dissolution and the ravages of the Dark Night. For me it was the best. Advice. Ever.

What follows is the most straightforward description I can give of what was a very unsettling but hugely rewarding experience. Remember, these are my descriptions and do not necessarily apply to anyone else, although as we all know, there's something about the progression that appears to be universal.

My experience of Dissolution on this retreat was "I can't even stay with the object for more than a single mind moment, *what's the point* of trying?" Getting past it was largely a matter of repeatedly suffering the appearance of failure, moment-by-moment, for however long it took to realise in my guts and toes that it's not actually failure, which can be either hours or minutes but always feels like centuries. At some point, this realisation finally causes me to get over myself just a little bit, and this allows traction to return with regards actual investigation of the three characterstics. Mental agony progresses into abrupt and unanticipated images of rotting, pulverised corpses -- classic Fear. I just stick with observing my reactions to the images manifest physically and find it passes easily and quickly although some can find this a difficult stage.

The stage of Disgust was quite apparent during some passes and less so during others but was based around a sense that "my" particular suffering makes everyone else look like whining little brats. Note the "my" -- it's important, as I eventually came to realise. Once this realisation crops up viscerally rather than just in an abstract way, some mental strength returns. Doesn't feel like much of a blessing as I become only too aware of physical agony and spasming muscles across my entire body, very compulsive urges to stand up, walk around, shout, scream, move do anything other than remain sitting, coupled with a sickening neural agitation that puts the 3 Chars to shame. Shinzen Young describes this as the "icky-sticky creepy-crawly it-doesn't-quite-hurt-but-I-can't-stand-it" feeling. It's like I imagine restless-legs syndrome would feel, on max and reaching into every part of your body especially your spine and skull. This I took to be Desire for Deliverance and Reobservation (I didn't notice the shift between these two, just a progression of increasing intensity). This is the Dark Night's "kick from within" as Goenka describes it. You are reaching the end of the process of surrender (although it is unlikely to feel that way), and one's ownership (or owned-ness) of suffering is such that it doesn't give up easily. During one evening walk on Day 5, I felt awareness switch ON-OFF-ON-OFF slowly and brutally five or six times. The OFFs were a respite of nothingness bookended, and somehow crucially defined by, moments of split chaos -- the ONs, like a knife to the jugular. Thankfully, having studied MCTB thoroughly by now, all of Daniel's advice for the Dark Night was in my head and was precisely what I needed at this point. I owe him a debt of gratitude for sharing it.

The wisdom of no escape. Despite the feeling that things were getting worse, that I might go mad, etc, following his advice *even though it felt like everything I did was wrong*, helped, when nothing else would, not even ending the meditation or the retreat. By simply continuing to practice, relief was obtained. Now, whether that was Equanimity or something else, is a discussion for the other post so if you're interested, get over there! : )

IMO these stages really are that obvious, both in the Dark Night and other times. If you're humming and hah-ing, saying to yourself "maybe it was this or that", chances are it was just a blip and not a real shift to the next nana. Or else it *was* a shift and the reason for your uncertainty about that is you haven't yet grokked the new nana, in which case you've reached the outer fringe of your current practice by definition, so forget the maps and just practice your arse off. At least, that's been my experience.

I hope some of this is useful to someone out there. These were my first few times through the Dark Night under retreat conditions, practising the whole time. The benefit of a retreat is that you can follow the instructions fairly mechanically and still make progress. The Dark Night sucks amazingly hard but a lot of it is about remembering the instructions and following them. And when you can't, the crucial thing is to *try* to follow them.

One thing's for certain, dukkha is for real and it's worth getting used to that.

With metta,
Jules

RE: Accidental dark night at very early age?

Bruno Loff — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:42:22 GMT

Hello Eduardo,

Well, although I never heard of a six year old dark nighter before, it could be the case... I simply don't think there is enough data on this matter to give you an actual answer (yes it is possible/no it must be something else). But if you feel like life sucks, and you have had energetic experiences and so on, then that really fits the bill.

You could do a daily practice of Tai Chi, for instance, and that should bring some relief, both in the short term (just after a practice session) and in the long run.

If it is indeed the dark night, you could start doing vipassana, going on retreats and so on, until you get stream entry. This should bring a clear and very obvious relief.

I hope you get better,
Bruno

Accidental dark night at very early age?

Eduardo Crespo — Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:52:09 GMT

Is it possible for say a 6 year old to accidentally enter the dark night? The reason I ask my sound silly and unlikely but I must know. I am 17 right now and ever since I was six I just felt bad and dissatisfied with life. I also have had many kundalini-like exeriences and energetic sensations my whole life since then. I was never able to enjoy my childhood or adolescence even if things where fine.I went to many psychologists and psychiatrists and have responded to no treatment at all. I went to acupuncture and bioenergetic specialists and I have not improved. I am really just sick of lfe and I don't know why. Ijust feel bad inside when I'm in my better moods. When I was 6 I would stay up many hours at a time just looking into my room and swing all the dots and pulses that I know now are the vibrations. It was around that time that I began to have problems. Before that my life was fine. I always have this terrible feeling in my chest and throat that never goes away. I have tried everything and nothing seems to work. Is this possibly the dark night? If so what should I do?

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

C C C — Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:43:11 GMT

Fair rebuttals David and Julian.

Sometimes i pick up a vibe underlying a thread, or group of threads, rather than things being written expressly. Either that or I'm projecting, or perhaps a bit of both.

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Just Jules — Mon, 19 Jul 2010 05:57:34 GMT

C C C:

Crikey, this website is sounding more like a men's-only depression forum every day. IMO, meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life*. It reminds me of the kids at school who were bad a sport and so 'escaped' to the library, rationalizing that 'sport is for meat heads, I'm better than that!', the same way that 'spiritual' people rationalize that 'desire is the cause of all suffering', because they haven't found a way to satisfy those desires the way normal people do. Every time I read a thread on here I'm always reminded of Emmerson: "the first requisite is to be a good animal, and this is the first requisite for every one. A course of life which sacrifices the animal, though it may be defensible under special conditions is not defensible as a general policy." The library does not hold the answers. It's a form of escapism.

EDIT - *by unsuccessful I'm mainly referring to poor self-esteem and confidence and poor ability to love and be loved. The easiest way to know if you if you have or lack these qualities is by the way you interact at a fun social gathering or party. If you get stuck in the corner talking to the boring guy about physics or religion, or if you just don't feel like you 'fit in', something ain't right.

There's something very wrong with the notion of a prozac-popping anagami.

What about embracing your humanness and loving that as a starting point? Loving your flesh and blood body, your unrelenting desires, your quirks, your bad habits, your unloving thoughts, your filth? There's wisdom in the left hand path.

CCC, I was about to reply to this but I see David has already expressed most of my feelings very eloquently. However I will say I'm not sure I agree there is anything wrong with a prozac-popping anagami. The standard wisdom goes that, notwithstanding neuroplasticity, meditation cannot and will not save us from our biology, although of course it may make all the difference between dealing with it skillfully or not.

The biggest issue I have is with your statement that "meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life".

Define success or failure and you are immediately caught in the very trap you are telling Stefan to avoid.

Other than this, you make some points here that are true and valid but not particularly relevant.

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

David A — Mon, 19 Jul 2010 05:34:07 GMT

C C C:

There's something very wrong with the notion of a prozac-popping anagami.

What about embracing your humanness and loving that as a starting point? Loving your flesh and blood body, your unrelenting desires, your quirks, your bad habits, your unloving thoughts, your filth? There's wisdom in the left hand path.

Noticed you added this while I was writing my response to your original post. Can't say I disagree with you on your second point. Again though, I don't see the applicability. We haven't been discussing anagamis. And taking medication is not equivalent to withholding love or harshly repressing humanness.

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

David A — Mon, 19 Jul 2010 05:20:57 GMT

C C C:

Crikey, this website is sounding more like a men's-only depression forum every day. IMO, meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life*. It reminds of the kids at school who were bad a sport and so 'escaped' to the library, rationalizing that 'sport is for meat heads, I'm better than that!', the same way that 'spiritual' people rationalize that 'desire is the cause of all suffering', because they haven't found a way to satisfy those desires the way normal people do. Every time I read a thread on here I'm always reminded of Emmerson: "the first requisite is to be a good animal, and this is the first requisite for every one. A course of life which sacrifices the animal, though it may be defensible under special conditions is not defensible as a general policy." The library does not hold the answers. It's a form of escapism.

EDIT - *by unsuccessful I'm mainly referring to poor self-esteem and confidence and poor ability to love and be loved. The easiest way to know if you if you have or lack these qualities is by the way you interact at a fun social gathering or party. If you get stuck in the corner talking to the boring guy about physics or religion, or if you just don't feel like you 'fit in', something ain't right.

Hi CCC, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and I don't disagree with your point that spirituality shouldn't be used as an escape, but I don't see the applicability of your post here. No one in this thread has advocated escapism. In the post that you responded to someone is stating that they might have attained fruition, and is playing around to see how his mental environment has changed, and is going to see how his new insights play out in "real life." And in the meantime he's continuing to take medication that helps him, which shows practical understanding of what his meditation has and hasn't been able affect. Which part of this are you objecting to?

Incidentally, I don't find a fun party to be a particularly accurate test of the qualities you mentioned. I've known many scintillating party animals who were sorely lacking in self-esteem and riddled with chronic love issues. (Also, what do you have against physics and religion? )

And while I don't have any argument with your definition of "successful", I think if you reflect you'll find this is a much higher bar than you realized. I'd be surprised if there were anyone on this forum who hasn't had to grapple with self-esteem or confidence issues, or have not in some way experienced neurotic quirks big and small in how they love and receive love, or haven't felt they didn't fit in at a social gathering -- so I wonder just how many "successful" people there are in the world by your definition. You might want to reflect on your Emerson quote here.

Anyway, if in fact you are genuinely bothered by having to read about other peoples' depression and problems, you might consider not reading posts in the subcategory "Dealing with the Dark Night"! ;)
As for the "men's-only forum" part, don't have a suggestion for you.

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

David A — Mon, 19 Jul 2010 04:31:38 GMT

chamaeleon yogi:

An update: seems I passed another fruition (again?) since then if I am no totally mistaken (sort of stoic hardly spectacular state of mind in retreat for days after clear climbing up the stages, then somewhere out of nothing a brief unclear moment, that I got aware of only afterward, though no black-out or so, followed by a wave of bliss, not more than 7 seconds, which repeated soon 2 or 3 times, each shorter than the previous one, then nothing special again, after a few days everyhing as it was, minus a grey veil covering everything). Call it whatever you want, I think that was a cycle, unclear as it was, and no idea about the stage it belonged to. Dont feel much different though, even much later.

However, it didnt change much of the symptoms I complained about. Though everything seems lighter in a way I could not reduce citalopram below 15mg/day. I even tried to reduce during retreat, just to find out, how it works. It seems I could go lower than it would have worked out out of retreat. I had to go up again afterward.

I took a break of a feew weeks and resumed a bit of meditation later, seems psychologically interesting, allowing perspectives on "myself" aka the mental processes during meditation, getting thinner and more "transparent" as it seems. Now I just go on with "real life" and see where I am in 5 to 10 years or so.

cheers, stefan

Wow congrats Stefan, if in fact you got fruition. Your persistence seems to be paying off. I hope your new level of insight continues to gain momentum.

As for myself, I'm doing a lot better. Last year I'd been hit by multiple heavy stuff and was in a high stress situation and felt overwhelmed, but I've since been able to make progress on the various fronts and am much more balanced now. Still have symptoms, but less. It's been a significant learning and growing experience, albeit a very unpleasant one.

I've not yet taken any medication, although I am keeping that option open. Even though I'm feeling better it's been a long time going at this and I could use a break mentally and physically.
I have a friend who was also messed up a bit by a 3-month Mahasi retreat he did in Nepal, plus some other stuff that happened afterward. He recently started taking Lexapro and he says he feels much improved, and as an outside observer I can really see the difference in his well-being. He has prior jhana experience and tells me now he gets piti in his body regularly without even meditating.
So clearly SSRIs do seem like they can be a help with this kind of stuff.

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

C C C — Mon, 19 Jul 2010 02:58:05 GMT

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

chamaeleon yogi — Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:04:32 GMT

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

James William Mitchell — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:42:29 GMT

Hi All,

Daniel replied to my post off-list. This thread is now settled and finished. Thanks for your replies.

Metta,
James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana....attention Daniel Ingram

James William Mitchell — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:27:56 GMT

Hi Trent, [quote=Your DarkRambling is pretty comical,[/quote] James: Well I am glad that you find my suffering so comical. That's very compassionate of you. :-( as the answers to your original question and this new one are actually already on display above. The answer is not so simple: maybe; try and find out. Really, it might and it might not. James: That is not an answer. The 16 Stages of Insight occur with each practitioner who practices insight meditation- it is not a maybe yes and maybe no. So, how jhana would affect these insights should also be standard. The Vism. presents these steps as those of a "dry insight worker", but perhaps they are the same with jhana workers as well. There is a specific answer to my question. As I already said, the fear (as well as other feelings) are related to a trigger, so you can either surrender to it (the traditional enlightenment route) and get over it, or dissolve it completely (as I instructed above) and get over it. James: Who says that the fear of "Knowledge of Fear" is related to a trigger?? Is that in Daniel's book? Is that found in the Vism.? Why are you assuming such things about my practice when you don't even know me? Are you really qualified? As the samatha jhanas are barely (if at all) related to the reason you're darknighting, messing with them would only be a good idea for the reasons I already mention above, which may or may not help you pass through the territory you currently are in, and may or may not help you "tolerate (the darknight) in daily life." James: The jhanas are not responsible for the Stages of Insight. But, you cannot stay in the jhanas forever if you want to achieve enlightenment. What I want to know is if the jhanas make any difference at all to the Stages of Insight, or not-- and NO it is not an individual thing! Metta, James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana....attention Daniel Ingram

Trent H. — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:23:56 GMT

Hello,

James William Mitchell:

Would achieving a jhana first, before insight practice, make the Dark Night more easy to tolerate in daily life or does it not matter??

Your DarkRambling is pretty comical, as the answers to your original question and this new one are actually already on display above. The answer is not so simple: maybe; try and find out. Really, it might and it might not. As I already said, the fear (as well as other feelings) are related to a trigger, so you can either surrender to it (the traditional enlightenment route) and get over it, or dissolve it completely (as I instructed above) and get over it. As the samatha jhanas are barely (if at all) related to the reason you're darknighting, messing with them would only be a good idea for the reasons I already mention above, which may or may not help you pass through the territory you currently are in, and may or may not help you "tolerate (the darknight) in daily life."

Later,
Trent

RE: Dark Night and Jhana....attention Daniel Ingram

James William Mitchell — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 04:58:28 GMT

Hi All,

First, I want to thank everyone who has given me some advice about the Dark Night. That really wasn't what I was asking about, but I appreciate it anyway. Also, I must say, that I am starting to wonder if anyone in this group, other than Daniel Ingram, has really experienced the Dark Night. The advice to "just be aware" of the fear and it will go away is pure tripe. Everyone seems to be giving advice about how to handle the fear, misery, and disgust while doing the sitting meditation, but THAT IS NOT WHEN THE DARK NIGHT REALLY STRIKES! The dark night is felt most keenly when one isn't meditating. Bad mood, depression, anxiety, anger, fear, hopelessness, confusion, etc. are all occurring during the day, when off the cushion. Daniel quite accurately goes on for page after page of this in his book, most deservingly so. NOTHING that one does during the insight meditation will stop this side effect of the practice during daily life. One has to either stop meditating (and then the effects become less severe but still remain for years) or continue and get to the equanimity phase. Daniel details all of this in his book and yet I am getting advice from members here who seem like they haven't read that part, haven't read it closely enough, or have no idea what he is talking about because they haven't experienced it.

Now, enough is enough, I am done with hearing the psyobabble about the Dark Night. I don't mean to be bitchy but I just want to know one thing: Would achieving a jhana first, before insight practice, make the Dark Night more easy to tolerate in daily life or does it not matter?? This is what I want to know, nothing else. Thank you.

Metta,
James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Bruno Loff — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:19:16 GMT

Actually James,

You remember the whole concept of "samskaras" in the Goenka style vipassana? Well, that actually still is true. General unpleasantness is generated by accumulated tension; as "energy" or whatever passes through these blocks, you will feel the nature of the tension, which manifests itself in different ways depending of where it is located; as that tension is released, things such as fear can go away without a trace.

Indeed the whole enlightenment thing seems to work (at least for me) by cleaning up tension, and then bringing consciousness very near the root process in the mind that causes this tension to appear in the first place. And guess what: it's craving and aversion. In one word, desire is the root cause of all that mental pain you are experiencing right now. More specifically, desire caused you to tense up, and dark night is all that tension (accumulated over dozens of years) manifesting very clearly all at once, causing you to become blocked and disabled.

With regards to fear you can try to work directly with the fear when it shows up. You can do vipassana, for instance, or you can get your hands on the book "Focusing" by Eugene Gendlin, to have some idea of how to do that using a (very effective) psychoanalytical-meditative style technique.

One point to remember is that you don't need to deal with it all at once. You can approach it slowly each session, with the intention of dissolving it at its root. If it gets too bad, stop and go take a walk, and try again some other day. No matter what happens, DON'T REACT violently; if you do it will only make it worst. Even if you have a panic attack (I guess you know what those are ), just go take a walk and let it dissipate as non-reactively as you can (i.e., with equanimity). Eventually you will learn to think reasonably in spite of fear, and eventually you will even get bored by it. At last, you will come to the root of the problem (likely some tension in your belly and intestines), and you will dissolve it.

In any case, I am wishing you the best of luck. May you soon be relieved of that dreadful condition!

Bruno

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Trent H. — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:00:02 GMT

Hi,

James William Mitchell:

"Knowledge of Fear" is one of the 16 stages of insight. When one sees clearly that all phenomenon arise and fall away, not just the body but the mind also, that is fearful! I don't think that you have experienced the dark night or you wouldn't advise me to "question the source of the fear". I don't need psychoanalysis; I need good meditation guidance.

To be more precise, "that" (seeing clearly that all phenomenon arise and fall away) is not "fearful," it is you whom *is* fear, and to an intensity enough which you decide to describe it as "full," as opposed to a condition of relative absence; hence: fear-full. In another way of saying it: "I" am "my" fear and "my" fear is "me." Which means that if "you" are "fear" and "fear" is "you," then "you" are fully capable of deciding whether or not to arise as "fear" (or as anything else). Since this fear seems to be a hindrance to your progress, it would be wise to extinguish it, whether via methods you dub psychoanalytical or meditative.

And by the way, my time spent crossing the territory called the "knowledge of fear" was indeed scary, but paltry in comparison to the atavistic reactions one experiences when sincerely considering the extinction of being in favor of oblivion. (To choose for those "phenomena" mentioned above--minus the flesh and blood body; it remains-- to never again "arise" at all) I mention this as a head-nod to the fact that these experiences may-- at the time of experiencing them-- seem to be extremely powerful and important, but in retrospect, they may prove to be only the tip of a very big iceberg. Hence the cool demeanor of your well-traveled correspondent(s).

Best,
Trent

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Florian Weps — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:17:40 GMT

Hi James,

James William Mitchell:

I couldn't sit for even five minutes without my mind screaming to stop immediately (and yet, in the background, knowing that there was more to do).

Note the screaming. Use "resisting?" as a note - giving it a questioning tone works well for me, ymmv. This is dukkha characteristic. btw.

Note the background knowledge of more to do. Use "hearing".

Note the fear, at the level of sensations. If there is a ball of fear in the stomach region, is it hot or cold? Does it expand or contract? Is there some rhythm to it? Note all that. This is not psychology, just noticing how it is to be a human being meditating in the spot you are in.

The suttas don't refer much of the dark night explicitly, but it's there in the Buddha's story, for example. Broke up his relationship, ran away, got into a strong renunciation trip, had falling-out with two teachers, then with even his closest friends, wanted to starve himself to death because he saw no other way out. How's that for a dark night?

That's what I meant by opinions making people miserable, btw. "It's not in the suttas, now I'm unsure how to proceed, which opinion is better, now I'm doubtful..." this stuff can and should be noted like anything else, of course.

You don't have to play with pure concentration practice. Like Trent wrote, you're already practicing concentration by doing vipassana. Dedicated practice, or starting a sit with concentration, will be a bit of extra training, that's all.

Going for a light, fun attitude in concentration training just helps, that's all. There is absolutely no extra merit in being extra miserable. The dark night isn't some kind of punishment we have to bear, it's just the discovery, at a very immediate level, of things like fear and misery within one's being, just like the A&P was the discovery of where joy and elation are to be found within one's being. Again, this is not psychology to explain something away, just observation of how it happens.

In short, it sucks, and you're not being naughty or anything for looking for a bit of temporary relief and just plain lubrication in the abrasive place where you're now. And you don't have to hit a jhana for the juice to show up, either, though chances are, as Trent points out, that jhana will arise anyway.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

James William Mitchell — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:45:04 GMT

Hi Trent,

"Knowledge of Fear" is one of the 16 stages of insight. When one sees clearly that all phenomenon arise and fall away, not just the body but the mind also, that is fearful! I don't think that you have experienced the dark night or you wouldn't advise me to "question the source of the fear". I don't need psychoanalysis; I need good meditation guidance.

Metta,
James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Trent H. — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:08:37 GMT

Hi,

Well, it may be useful for you to take care of the fear first then. It is not outside of your control to do so. Question yourself honestly to discover, and then sincerely resolve away the source belief of the fear and both trigger and feeling will disappear...as if they were never there to begin with (...and perhaps they weren't).

Trent

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

James William Mitchell — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:24:06 GMT

Hi Trent,

Thank you for the input. I think it makes sense to start the session with some samatha and then continue on to vipassana. That is what I am used to as that is the Goenka method as well. When I say that I am not sure if my mind is in the right place for attaining jhana what I mean is the meditation terrifies me. You can't really calm and steady the mind on an object to the level of jhana when you are terrified. It has been ten years and I am still terrified! (Though with not as much intensity now). I guess I just have to trudge on.

Metta,
James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

James William Mitchell — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:05:58 GMT

Hi Florian and all,

Thanks for the input. Believe me, I don't want to debate and I don't have an opinion. I am just tired and I want to get out of this dark night. But I don't think you understand because you haven't reached the dark night yet or it was very mild for you. Let me explain, I went from meditating almost every spare moment and when I was out somewhere wishing that I was back at home meditating, to not wanting to meditate at all, to where the thought of meditation made me uneasy, fearful, and revolted. I couldn't sit for even five minutes without my mind screaming to stop immediately (and yet, in the background, knowing that there was more to do). I cannot sit and "play" with concentration or "play" with vipassana to see which works best- I must KNOW NOW which one is best to proceed with. So far, from reading the book, it seems that I must proceed with vipassana and push through the terror. (I am still a bit unsure, though, because the suttas don't speak of this dark night, just the Vism.).

Metta,
James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Trent H. — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 01:55:35 GMT

Hi & welcome,

James William Mitchell:

So, I don't know how to proceed. Should I try to accomplish at least the first jhana before I proceed? (Which I am not sure is possible since my mind is not in such a good place).

There's a specific, hard-to-quantify strength of concentration necessary for most peoples to access any specific attainment. Whether getting stream entry, attaining Nirodha Samapatti, the 1st jhana, or whatever. There are a few ways to strengthen your short-term, base-line concentration strength. If you stick to vipassana in a highly focused, attentive way, your concentration will strengthen, and may eventually become strong enough to allow you to sense the phenomena (quantity of sensations, as well as clarity) necessary for attaining your insight goals. Faster, however, would be doing some sort of samatha practice (not necessarily attaining jhanas, although it is likely they will naturally arise anyway) at the beginning of your sessions, then switch to vipassana for the remainder of your sit. In simple terms, samatha practices increase one's concentration strength faster than vipassana because the focus of the techniques are primarily on cultivating concentration strength and skill, whereas vipassana is more about utilizing those skills to investigate one's moment-to-moment experience. Doing samatha prior to insight will also usually give a per-sit boost, as compared to not doing it (priming the stage, so to speak). Also, samatha practice can be interesting and inspiring, which I would argue is very important for gathering the determination necessary to push into stream entry.

Lastly, your mind not "being in a good place" won't necessary keep you from attaining 1st jhana, though believing so most likely will.

Peace,
Trent

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

James William Mitchell — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 01:51:24 GMT

Hi Bruno,

Thanks for the reply. So I guess you are suggesting that I carry on with the vipassana, as before, and not attempt to backtrack and attain jhana. That makes sense to me....but it wasn't the answer I was hoping for. :-) I wish there was an easier way to get out of this funk. Thanks again for the reply.

Metta,
James

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Florian Weps — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:45:46 GMT

Hi James,

Welcome to DhO.

That's an old debate, the dry "vipassana first" approach vs the juicy "jhana first" approach.

Here's a secret: you don't have to adopt either opinion. Opinions are mostly useless and make many people miserable. Find out for yourself.

You are surely familiar with the parable of the raft? The purpose is to get across (the dark night, the flood of rebirth, whatever). Note how it's not the parable of the ocean liner. It's not the parable of Getting The Steps All Exactly Right. A raft is something make-shift, just good enough, single-purpose, built out of whatever floatable junk was found lying around, used to scrabble across.

So, does that raft float? If you are stuck in the dark night, maybe it doesn't float that well. Maybe doing a bit of concentration practice will be useful and provide the lubrication to get un-stuck. Try 15 minutes of light, fun concentration a day, in the morning, for a week or so, and see what happens, while keeping up your vipassana practice of course. Kasina practice works great for many people - saucer-size grey disk cut out of a cereal package, for example, or a candle flame, or a knot in the wood panelling. A meditation word or mantra can be useful to get the discursive thoughts to settle down and let a concentration state arise - really any word will work, and there are lots of traditional recommendations. The breath is nice and portable, but can be tricky to get into at first, but it can be combined with any of the other ones in fun ways. Formal resolve works surprisingly well: think "let a concentration state arise" before meditating, then don't worry about it and just do the concentration practice lightly and for fun - no staring down of demons in this sit.

If you'd like a more formal way of framing the concentration/vipassana-first discussion, there are teachings like the five spiritual faculties, which in essence recommend a balance of vipassana and concentration - they have an entire chapter of their own in MCTB - or models like the "limiting factors" in disciplines like biology: growth of a plant is limited by the availability of the scarcest resource.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark Night and Jhana

Bruno Loff — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:25:00 GMT

James,

I really empathize with what you're going through. Dark night is worst thing ever. Things got better for me after stream entry, which I have reached on the fifth day of my second retreat, using mahasi style noting.

I also felt that going for concentration was pointless, even reading and understanding a full sentence was a challenge in those days The good news, I guess, is that this gets way better after stream entry. Although the sensation that something urgently needs resolution will apparently remain until arhatship.

Best of luck,
Bruno

Dark Night and Jhana

James William Mitchell — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:00:12 GMT

Hi All,

I have almost finished reading 'Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha' and I am just so happy to finally find a HELPFUL dharma book! I find the book to be simply amazing. Anyway, I have a question which I didn't see directly answered in the book, only hinted at: Can attaining the jhanas, at least the first jhana, ameliorate or at least hasten the dark night period?

You see, I have been stuck in the dark night for years, yes YEARS! I began vipassana meditation with S.N. Goenka's book and technique (which really should contain some words of warning about where the practice will take you!). I attended some retreats and practiced daily and everything was great at first...just what I expected. But then I got into the dark night territory. I experienced all of the symptoms described in the book plus an intense fear that I might die (a feeling like I was about to fall off a cliff) if I continued to meditate in the fashion I was doing. So, I stopped, and that was about 10 years ago. Since then, I have been reading the discourses of the Buddha, the Vism. and participating in discussion groups trying to figure out what happened to me and desperately wanting to proceed. Finally, I have come across a book which speaks directly to what I am going through!

I have been thinking that perhaps my mistake was not accomplishing any of the jhanas prior to insight practice. The Goenka method requires access concentration at the most and doesn't call for the jhanas. Maybe if I had accomplished at least the first jhana the dark night period wouldn't have been so severe?? Or maybe it doesn't matter??

So, I don't know how to proceed. Should I try to accomplish at least the first jhana before I proceed? (Which I am not sure is possible since my mind is not in such a good place). Or, should I just push through the dark night and aim for stream entry? I know I need to do something because I can't continue to exist in this limbo phase! It's awful! So, if anyone has any advice I would appreciate it.

Metta,
James

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:12:08 GMT

Hi Daniel,

Well, there isn't much to report at the moment, as I'm more concerned with lots of "real-life" stuff at the moment - school term is over for my daughter, family visits and vacations planning are big on the agenda, changes in my work situation (for the better) demand a lot of attention, and so on.

So while there's nothing new to report, here are a few musings and speculations:

Whatever that was, it has been unfolding for about a year now. Never having done a retreat, I suspect that this kind of thing develops with more intensity and maybe more clarity in a retreat situation than when practicing at home, and hence the milestones become more evident during retreat. Also, I'm really bad at self-diagnosis.

Duncan (of the Baptists Head / Open Enlightenment) recently explained to me how he sees fruitions primarily as insight-producing rather than experience-producing. I find that to be a very useful addition to the technical, phenomenological descriptions of fruition in use here at DhO, a kind of double-check against scripting the experience.

While I don't notice anything abruptly different about my current experience vs. say, my experience in April, something has been lifted or become transparent, and it's very different, just so sober and natural somehow, from equanimity. Not that equanimity didn't have this sense of okay-ness and all-around inclusiveness, but in eq. there was, compared to now, a kind of tension holding it all together, which wasn't all that noticeable then but is now conspicuously absent. This is obviously very subjective stuff.

As to more clealy described experiential stuff: I do get into the jhanas rather quickly now (but then, I've been practicing them for over a year, so that's not that surprising). I can also tune into a vipassana-ish / mindful perspective and stay there during ordinary day-to-day activities, and do this more quickly and for more prolonged periods than, say, in February.

And yeah, this place, the DhO, is great, and it's good to be here.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Daniel M. Ingram — Sun, 04 Jul 2010 06:33:50 GMT

Tarin mentioned you might have gotten stream entry...

Nice, whatever it is.

Perhaps more follows in another thread. Regardless, keep us informed. If you have finally done it, well, about damn time! ;)

Keep up the good work, and thanks for your many sane and helpful contributions to this forum. It is very good to have you here.

Daniel

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:48:50 GMT

tarin greco:

Florian Weps:

(...) or any other sensation for that matter, not even memory of a blank moment. While the clarity of this experience was extraordinary, its flavor was completely normal or common and not exceptional at all.

Just prior to the discontinuities there was always an extended back-and-forth of "detachable attention" moving between the sense of perceiving on one hand, and the perceptions on the other, with the distance between the two being bridged somehow (not by me!) or an arching connection being formed, by the autonomous back-and-forth motion of attention.

could you describe in greater detail what has happened prior to the discontinuities.. particularly about the arching connection formed? (and then what?)

The little spot of attention would vault back and forth between the set of sensations and the subjective "place" where the sensing is (for example, a sound out there, and the shelf in my skull where I "place" hearing, or the grainy bit of eyelid color out there and the place where I imagine my eyeballs are).

This slowly bouncing, arching, vaulting motion would gradually speed up, with the implication that the distance being spanned each time was decreasing. Then the set of sensations would gang up to form an experience, or a vision: the first time around, it was, appropriately, the experience of flying along to the right of a curved railway bridge on arched supports (there is one close to where I work ), complete with sense of flying along the arches and peeking through them at the brightness on the other side. Then I'd be very loudly, viscerally aware of breathing out - ! - no wait, of having just completed that exhalation.

All of this was very unspectacular, the vision/seeing part of the vision was poor quality and grainy, the sense of flying motion was there but didn't blot out my sense of sitting, it was more like a lazy day-dream, only very clearly perceived and not the onset of spacing out at all. Your advice from earlier in the thread, "note the strangely enjoyable bliss of spacing out, don't space out" had been going through my head just prior to this.

tarin greco:

..also, what was your meditation experience like after the discontinuities, say, for the rest of the sessions?

The first time I was so baffled I opened my eyes and stopped meditating there and then to think it over and write it down. I hadn't been expecting it at all. I was just very sober, and not sure what to make of it. I was enjoying the soberness, but almost wrote it all off to having spaced out yet again (though very lucidly), because for some reason I was expecting large amounts of bliss to become available.

Then a few days later I noticed the discontinuity again, but without anything like the railway bridge sequence. If anything, there was a short, abstract audible/visual pattern that was somehow off-center. It wasn't very lucid, and it doesn't make much sense anymore when I read that description now. I continued to meditate to see if anything else would happen, and after a while of just plain sitting around, my break was over, and I got up.

There was a third occurrence of discontinuity-noticing, but it wasn't very clear, so it may have been something else. By then, I had developed a nasty cold and wasn't meditating much, and was drowsy and unfocussed from medication. That cold is getting better, and I'm looking forward to sitting again.

Tarin:

my suggestion would be to just let all of these parts keep talking to themselves/each other/whomever without being too concerned by any of it... but that's already what you've been doing anyway, isn't it? (just guessing here)

Yes - for the first time in, yes in years, I'm not concerned about missing any meditation sits due to my cold.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 16:49:22 GMT

Florian Weps:

Thanks, Tarin.

you're welcome.

Florian Weps:

Update: at one point a few weeks back, the oozing groping thing changed and broke apart into "detachable attention" - attention moved freely in the space between e.g. the "place" where I see something, and the "place" where the seeing is (subjectively somewhere behind my eyelids), and analogous for the other perceptions.

yes..

Florian Weps:

And also, as a kind of third party, I was aware of this state of affairs.

yes.....

Florian Weps:

Then, in my last few sits of the past week, I've experienced, with great clarity, a complete sense of discontinuity. It was detectable only because events had moved on unaccountably: my breath was suddenly fully exhaled, and there was no memory of that last bit of abdominal motion (...)

yes!

Florian Weps:

could you describe in greater detail what has happened prior to the discontinuities.. particularly about the arching connection formed? (and then what?)

..also, what was your meditation experience like after the discontinuities, say, for the rest of the sessions?

Florian Weps:

Part of me is certain that it was a perfectly empty gap - no passage of time, no reference point in any experience during the event, just the fact that the world has turned a bit more in-between two moments of very clear perception.

Another part of me is skeptical, comparing this with other accounts I've come across, raising objections over the missing bliss-wave, the fact that nothing much seems to have changed, the fact that I'm not suddenly a master of concentration, or able to do 100 push-ups - just unmet expectations, really.

A third part of me keeps pointing out that seeking justification in any particular experience (or rather, this particular non-experience) seems like a very dumb move in a quest to become unfettered by the particulars of experience.

I'd be happy to hear any suggestions, what to look at, what to disregard, and how to proceed from here.

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:24:44 GMT

Thanks, Tarin.

Update: at one point a few weeks back, the oozing groping thing changed and broke apart into "detachable attention" - attention moved freely in the space between e.g. the "place" where I see something, and the "place" where the seeing is (subjectively somewhere behind my eyelids), and analogous for the other perceptions. And also, as a kind of third party, I was aware of this state of affairs.

Then, in my last few sits of the past week, I've experienced, with great clarity, a complete sense of discontinuity. It was detectable only because events had moved on unaccountably: my breath was suddenly fully exhaled, and there was no memory of that last bit of abdominal motion or any other sensation for that matter, not even memory of a blank moment. While the clarity of this experience was extraordinary, its flavor was completely normal or common and not exceptional at all.

Just prior to the discontinuities there was always an extended back-and-forth of "detachable attention" moving between the sense of perceiving on one hand, and the perceptions on the other, with the distance between the two being bridged somehow (not by me!) or an arching connection being formed, by the autonomous back-and-forth motion of attention.

There was no particular bliss-wave after these discontinuities, rather, a profound sense of soberness.

I've been running a heavy cold for a few days, so I wasn't able to get many re-runs of this thing.

Part of me is certain that it was a perfectly empty gap - no passage of time, no reference point in any experience during the event, just the fact that the world has turned a bit more in-between two moments of very clear perception.

Another part of me is skeptical, comparing this with other accounts I've come across, raising objections over the missing bliss-wave, the fact that nothing much seems to have changed, the fact that I'm not suddenly a master of concentration, or able to do 100 push-ups - just unmet expectations, really.

A third part of me keeps pointing out that seeking justification in any particular experience (or rather, this particular non-experience) seems like a very dumb move in a quest to become unfettered by the particulars of experience.

I'd be happy to hear any suggestions, what to look at, what to disregard, and how to proceed from here.

And I'm once more full of gratitude for this place, and all the people who make it what it is, and Daniel for maintaining it and writing MCTB and, and, and...

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Seven years of the Dark Night - time to move on?

Tom Carr — Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:28:35 GMT

You said:

Also, since I have a lot of sitting pain, maybe that pain would be good object for insight practice?

Don't mess up your knees or back by sitting through the pain. Move if it hurts. Change your posture to something that doesn't hurt. Do a google on "knee surgery meditation" to learn what can happen, or just search this forum for conversations about knee problems.

RE: Seven years of the Dark Night - time to move on?

Clayton James Lightfoot — Fri, 11 Jun 2010 02:48:35 GMT

Hey man,

Sorry to hear things have been so rough. I went through a dark night for 3 years before I started a serious daily practice. After going on one retreat (10 days) I kept practicing about 1.5 hours a day. About 3 months later I got first path. You sound dedicated to getting out of this. Good. I would say observe the 3 characteristics. That is your job. Go on a retreat if you can. I got path while scanning the body and noting the 3Cs, but many people think the mahasi method is best. I saw first hand how powerful the mahasi method is while working towards a middle path recently. It really blew me away how effective it was... Listen to the Yogis here and keep posting questions... getting path and out of the dark night is a very reasonable goal...

Clayton

RE: Seven years of the Dark Night - time to move on?

Bruno Loff — Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:25:31 GMT

Inge it sounds exactly like dark night. I've had exactly what you describe for a whole year. It has finally ended with stream entry (six months and counting), during a retreat with mahasi-style noting practice (described in "practical insight meditation" by mahasi sayadaw).

I think you could complement your current practice in a positive way by doing tai chi or chi kung. Then you could take a 10 day retreat somewhere and go for stream entry.

Welcome to DhO

Seven years of the Dark Night - time to move on?

Karma Tsultrim Tharchin — Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:42:52 GMT

Hi.

I am currently reading through MCTB, and have self-diagnosed as experiencing the Dark Night for seven years, since an A and P event in the spring of 2003. The A and P event happened after I resolved to figure out what a itching and restless feeling in the chest, that had been bothering me for many years, was. As mentioned in my first post in this forum, I laid down on my back and resolved not to move until I knew what that sensation was all about. It grew and grew in intensity until it became almost unbearable and I felt I was going to die. Then it reached its peak and exploded into strange and blissful waves moving throughout my body. I laughed and laughed until I felt I was going mad. Then quit and got up. Just after that experience I quit university as I had lost all motivation and was unable to concentrate on my studies. I found my self reading the same pages over and over again without anything getting in. The following years was very hard with depressions, anxietiy and despair. I moved around a lot, unable to study or work for more than short periods of time. Several times I moved back to live with my parents and probably became a great burden and source of worry for them because of my negativity and pessimism.

In the winter of 2008 I went through a very confusing period of dissolution followed by a period of extreme fear. I realized something had to be done if I was to survive, and then started to read literature about Buddhism. I first read "Zen and the psychology of transformation" by Hubert Benoit. Then started reading "Zen mind beginners mind" and the translations of Lu K'uan Yu ( Charles Luk ), particularly his translation of the Shurangama Sutra. Then I started studying the sutra commentaries and dharma talks by the venerable master Hsuan Hua. After one year of reading I attended a beginners course at a Karma Kagyu centre, after that started to practice shamata, mainly using the breath as object for concentration. Since beginning the sitting practice for me ranged from mildly frustrating to pure torture, with only some occasional pleasant experiences. I think maybe I have been visiting Equanimity stage some periods this spring, but find that I'm stuck in re-observation. If my self-diagnosis indeed is correct I strongly feel it's about time to move on. I understand insight practice is the way to go, but there are so many different methods and different advice given by different teachers.

My daily sitting practice is approximately two hours daily, mainly breath awareness and chanting of sutras, mantras and prayers. If I could only find a method I had faith in and that I could relatively quickly experience some effect from I could easily use more time each day, and also I would like some method that could be applied throughout the day. I feel that there is just a little adjustment of effort that is needed in order to progress, but are in doubt as to how to make that adjustment.

After just reading some chapters of the MCTB I realized I was not concentrating strong enough, I adjusted the concentration just a little and then, by changing focus slightly to the pleasantness of the breath, a flickering light appeared, there was numbness in arms and my hands started sweating. Then strange and wonderful sensations arose in the body. I quickly lost my concentration and it ended, but was able to repeat it once again in same sitting period, and once again in bed just before going to sleep same night. After that I have been to disturbed by expectations to repeat.

I would especially like to hear if anybody here have any experience with using the method of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, who realized perfect penetration by means of the faculty of hearing. To turn the hearing inside and listen to the nature?

Also, since I have a lot of sitting pain, maybe that pain would be good object for insight practice?

Any advice on how to quickly proceed from re-observation would be appreciated.

Also, off course, my self-diagnosis might be completely wrong. If you think so, please tell me.

Thanks

Inge

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Fri, 07 May 2010 06:16:06 GMT

Florian Weps:

pay attention to 'where' it's reaching out 'to', and pay attention to how it doesn't feel right.

Florian Weps:

I suspect there must be some "warning signs", but I haven't found any, so far. How do I go about noticing them? Note faster/more thoroughly? Pump up the tranquility so they show more clearly?

at one point while i was on my stream-entry retreat, i had this bizarrely intent - perhaps somewhat fanatical - pre-occupation with looking at what, just what exactly, is happening right now (i strongly had the sense that i wasn't paying enough attention somehow and that there was something strange going on which i was missing). to this end, i had a rhythmic mantra running (something along the lines of 'what.is going on.right now?', which i repeated to myself for several hours.. strange times called for strange measures), and that helped me maintain continuity of attention for a while. whether or not that was actually necessary, however, i don't know, as the something strange which was happening was actually staring me in the face all that time, like it's doing to you right now.

tarin

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Wed, 05 May 2010 19:55:43 GMT

Hi Tarin (and DhO at large)

I've caught this oozing groping thing in two contexts so far: as it's reaching out, and after the fact, after blanking out, that is.

I keep trying to find where it starts out from, to observe it right from the start, but either my concentration is not up to it, or there simply is no "starting out" with this, but that doesn't feel right.

I suspect there must be some "warning signs", but I haven't found any, so far. How do I go about noticing them? Note faster/more thoroughly? Pump up the tranquility so they show more clearly?

Thanks for any hints.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Sat, 01 May 2010 07:24:41 GMT

just realise it already

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Sat, 01 May 2010 06:31:17 GMT

Hi Tarin,

That "reaching out" quality you mentioned, well, I've been watching it like you suggested. That thing that is like an inchworm looking for a place to hold on to? Or a very, very subtle tug of war? Or a piece of jelly on a string? Oozing but purposeful?

I've been noting it.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:04:04 GMT

Hi Tarin,

same timing, but shifted somehow. Again. I got this one single time, and by now I may not be remembering it correctly any more.

Thanks for the hints, I'll try them out next sit,

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:46:18 GMT

Florian Weps:

the prisoner greco:

can you say more about this off-beat 'coming and going'? how is it different from the unified audio-visual-bodily slow strobing vibes?

do you mean that its a 'reverse-beat' (same rate/timing as the vibes and presenting in the intervals between them) or do you mean that it has a different rhythm altogether? (which is what the term 'off' suggested to me)

Florian Weps:

So currently, once I get "there", I'm paying attention (noting) to the slow synchronized stuff, paying attention to the urge to shift and reach out, and noticing that I spaced out. Suggestions?

yes: note spacing out, note the strangely enjoyable bliss of spacing out, don't space out.

stay aware of the reaching out quality (it is only a quality after out - there is no 'out' that is actually being reached to), keeping your attention keenly attuned to the sense of periphery (to all peripheries at the same time if possible, otherwise just to the sides which 'pull' on your attention the most).

hint: see how peripheries dont actually exist (they vanish into each other/into thin air) ... and without that strobing pull, whats left?

then be aware of that/keep noting that.

tarin

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:53:26 GMT

the prisoner greco:

they do have this lulling effect, don't they? pay attention to the points at which you're actually starting to space out. can you feel the peripheral vibrations 'pulling' your attention outwards into a dilated, trance-like forgetfulness? wake up to the siren song! this can be some pretty interesting territory, but fine tune, catch it happening and sail through.

Tricky, so far. Ody had himself roped to that mast for a reason, it seems. But I'm on it. It's like watching milk boil, and then it boils over just when I blink.

the prisoner greco:

Florian Weps:

the prisoner greco:

as such, the trick here is to 'see' the comings-and-goings that are seeing the formations as separate (hint: the seeing itself is coming and going). your attention/awareness has a frame-rate; tune into it and cessation will occur.

Not sure I'm understanding you correctly - tune into the off-beat "coming-and-going"?

can you say more about this off-beat 'coming and going'? how is it different from the unified audio-visual-bodily slow strobing vibes?

Well, when the vibes are "not there", a kind of blind blankness/numbness is "there", on the off-beat. I've had it once, before writing that post. A bit like an echo or foreshadowing. Maybe that was just some intermittent weirdness.

So currently, once I get "there", I'm paying attention (noting) to the slow synchronized stuff, paying attention to the urge to shift and reach out, and noticing that I spaced out. Suggestions?

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:56:14 GMT

Florian Weps:

So I've been working at this for a few days. I can move into a very "solidified" slowly strobing (visual), wah-wah (auditory) slowly beating ("energy" body sensations) thing within about 15 minutes, with all of these strobing and wah-wah and beating synching up.

Now for the fine-tuning:

the prisoner greco:

have you noticed, by the way, that what's in between the helicopter vibes, when its not interrupted by those vibes' occurrence, is the same as the 'numbness' of 4th jhana (such that the 'fabric' of 4th jhana is almost like 3rd jhana but without the vibrations)?

I may have been getting a whiff of that on my last sit: in addition to the slow "energetic" body "beating" sensation, the entire body sensation was also coming and going (or the numbness was going and coming off-beat as it were). I spaced out badly somewhere around there, as I was tired, sitting late at night, and the solid vibes have this effect of lulling me.

Florian Weps:

the prisoner greco:

if so, you may notice that this numbness comprises sensations, but that they present as a formation, and not by way of flashing in and out; while the formation is still coming and going, the mind that comes and goes with the formation is so in-tune with it that the formation's arising and passing is indistinct from the seeing itself.

Is that the same effect that has the other sensations (sound, energy beats, visuals) synching up?

yes, it is the same effect; however, when the seeing starts synching up, the objects being seen (which have already unified) stop strobing.. for when the seeing is (more or less) in sync with those objects, there is nothing for them to strobe against.

Florian Weps:

the prisoner greco:

Not sure I'm understanding you correctly - tune into the off-beat "coming-and-going"?

can you say more about this off-beat 'coming and going'? how is it different from the unified audio-visual-bodily slow strobing vibes?

tarin

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:13:23 GMT

the prisoner greco:

Is that the same effect that has the other sensations (sound, energy beats, visuals) synching up?

the prisoner greco:

Not sure I'm understanding you correctly - tune into the off-beat "coming-and-going"?

Mahasi Sayadaw:

The objects noticed and the consciousness noticing them cease altogether...

It's next to my pillow, actually. The booklet.

Thanks, Tarin, for your help with this.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: How long does it last?

tarin greco — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:24:55 GMT

J Adam G:

What are the big pitfalls that I need to watch out here, either because they are common at wherever you believe I'm at, or especially because I've demonstrated that I'm falling victim to those pitfalls? Can it be skillful to use some shamatha to "lube up" the dark night so it's less painful? (Sorry to those people who always have mental images of things people say. I didn't have a better metaphor.)

it sounds to me like you're stumbling around in the dark night, which would mean some things worth looking out for are, off the top of my head:

- indulging in psychological content, particularly that which is heavily conditioned by feeling crappy. (the 'blah blah this sucks' pitfall)
- indulging in a resentful attitude which engenders apathy toward progress; the relative peace of feeling that there is no point in practice is only desirable when it is up against the despair that practice will not lead to betterment. (the 'what's the point' pitfall)
- indulging in laziness by deeming that what progress is possible now can happen just as readily later so there's no point in making it immediately (the procrastination pitfall)
- not attending to the sensations which are actually occuring, and instead wishing for more pleasant ones. (the 'avoiding pain' pitfall)
- assuming that your experience of the dark night is worse than it really is. (the pitfall pitfall)

J Adam G:

It seems like noticing the equanimity aspect of the third jhana gives my mind something to shoot for in vipassana practice. I'm aware that to use shamatha states for insight, the blips that make them up have to be watched closely, and this is what I do to un-solidify the shamatha sates. But am I fooling myself to think that the fourth shamatha jhana characteristics can help me find the fourth vipassana jhana?

going through the transition from 3rd to 4th vipassana jhana again and again is how i learnt to 'find' the latter; from a certain point on, i was able to 'find' it simply by inclining my mind that way. i wouldn't say that you're necessarily fooling yourself in thinking that tuning into the 4th samatha jhana characteristics will help you get into equanimity regarding formations, no. why not give solidifying the late dark night a try, see if you are able to get into a pretty solid 4th samatha jhana from it, and if so, then start investigating again from there? pehaps you could start a new thread to tell the rest of us what happens.

tarin

RE: How long does it last?

J Adam G — Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:19:52 GMT

The post that was previously here was overly long. It can be ignored. Here's a shorter version which cuts out all the subjectivity and "I'm going to talk about this simply because it happened to me." However, I'm going to read the helicopter vibes threads that Tarin linked me to, so if they contain answers to this post or the old version of it, then by all means -- ignore this, and help somebody else who doesn't already know how to find the answers to their questions. I think what I'm doing is working, so really I'm just wondering about ways to make it more skillful.

When in Dissolution as a result of vipassana practice, I solidified it into a soft third jhana. Then I dropped down to the first shamatha jhana and got it going pretty strong. Since it was unsatisfactory, I moved to the second jhana. This state was unsatisfactory too, so I moved back up to the third jhana. The third jhana was now medium in strength.

After dwelling in this state for a bit, it became pretty unsatisfactory too. I'm calling this occurrence Misery, and the subsequent desire to get rid of 3rd jhana Disgust. Then I really really wanted equanimity because I felt like it would be satisfactory. I considered that Desire for Deliverance. Around this point, inclining the mind to notice the equanimity aspect of the third jhana (which was still present softly) caused it to move "towards" equanimity feelings and away from bliss feelings.

As I got more and more tired of the bliss feelings and the equanimity feelings which were now becoming stronger didn't seem much better, I became more and more fed up with them. After that fed-up-ness reached a peak, I had the feeling of "fuck it, everything is just going to suck, I get it." After a few minutes, I found myself in a calmer state where I just watched sensations arise, and they weren't particularly doing much of anything aside from existing. All of the dukkha was still there, but it seemed less bothersome.

This new stage seemed more stable than what I'm considering to be the Dark Night proper, but not as stable as M&B, A&P, or Dissolution bliss. So my working hypothesis has been that this is late Reobservation and maybe an inkling of early Equanimity. I've seen nothing that so much as resembles a formation, and it seems like I would have to go more towards the "everything is just okay" aspect of this and away from the "I guess I just have to accept that everything sucks" aspect in order to solidify it. However, maybe I'm just saying that because of my familiarity with the insight stages, and I'm just telling myself that I felt that way during practice. I don't THINK that's what happened, but memory is unbelievably deceptive and rife with self-serving biases.

What are the big pitfalls that I need to watch out here, either because they are common at wherever you believe I'm at, or especially because I've demonstrated that I'm falling victim to those pitfalls? Can it be skillful to use some shamatha to "lube up" the dark night so it's less painful? (Sorry to those people who always have mental images of things people say. I didn't have a better metaphor.)

It seems like noticing the equanimity aspect of the third jhana gives my mind something to shoot for in vipassana practice. I'm aware that to use shamatha states for insight, the blips that make them up have to be watched closely, and this is what I do to un-solidify the shamatha sates. But am I fooling myself to think that the fourth shamatha jhana characteristics can help me find the fourth vipassana jhana?

RE: How long does it last?

tarin greco — Thu, 22 Apr 2010 04:11:59 GMT

J Adam G:

then it would be much better to try to solidify late dark night (desire for deliverance/reobservation) vibrations into 4th jhana. it's slippery but possible to do, not too difficult, and a concentration exercise directly applicable to the progress of insight. see florian's idling helicoptor vibes thread for more on the subject: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/436443

...which conversation was prompted by a comment he made on an earlier thread:

Florian Weps:

'Vibrations: I perceive an "internal" high-pitched bell-tone. Superimposed on it, muting or modulating it, there is a fairly slow "vibration", like an idling helicopter rotor.

RE: How long does it last?

J Adam G — Thu, 22 Apr 2010 02:24:16 GMT

What types of things can one do to cultivate skill with third jhana type diffuse attention? Other than solidifying Dissolution into 3rd shamatha jhana to develop more familiarity with how the third jhana feels. It doesn't seem skillful to cultivate Dissolution when the idea is to go past Dissolution into the no-man's land between third and fourth jhana territory. Then again, 3rd jhana's ease can become rather non-fun at some point, and even distasteful to the point where equanimity starts to seem like a much better place to reside.

Is that a trap for a meditator who wants to believe he's making more progress than he really is, and just needs to stop asking questions and start looking for things to note that haven't been getting noted? Like the desire to note new things?

RE: How long does it last?

Daniel M. Ingram — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 05:54:42 GMT

I see great variability in reports of how many hours of focused meditation it takes to get through the Dark Night and into Equanimity.

A number of factors at play here, but much hinges on the words focused and meditation.

As to focused: strangely, it takes somewhat diffuse attention to navigate the Dark Night well, as it is 3rd jhana territory, which is wide.

Second: as to meditation: those who actually can be very precisely mindful, accepting, and yet open and more spacious, as well as keep a lid on their crap or just see it as it is, second after rapid and complex second, those people can make progress really fast. In fact, those who can do this can typically power through from A&P through Dark Night in a few days, usually.

However, this is a small group. Most flounder, are sporadic, get blindsided by their crap, frustrated when the A&P fades, can't phase-adjust their attention and modulate its width to properly sync with the 3rd vipassana jhana, and thus flounder, careen around, stumble, and make a mess of things. For most, it is only after some number of failed attempts, frustration, debunking various personal bugaboos, and the like, that they are able to practice as in the paragraph above. Sad but true.

Helpful?

Daniel

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

J Adam G — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:38:26 GMT

Sounds like the dark night to me. If you're lucky, noting that stuff will make it go away. If you aren't, then you'll note it for a few moments, and it won't change, and then you should just go back to the meditation object. Every time the mind tries to attend to the unpleasant sensation, just give a few notes to that sensation and move the mind back to your desired object. This can be a constant job that feels like it never stops! Right Effort is like that sometimes.

On the subject of vibrations, if you're more curious about them, one thing you can do is look at a sensation and DARE it to remain solid and smooth. Just watch it like a hawk for the slightest indication of shimmer or periodicity of any sort. It might be like AM, or like FM, or like something else entirely. Just watch the sensation with the attitude that whatever impermanence and discontinuity exists, you will see it. Is that any help? Even in Dissolution, where it feels like every sensation is gone by the time you can notice it, this technique can work. Note that you do not ~need~ that technique because the meditation instructions you're already following are working fine. It just might be a useful thing to try out.

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

Abingdon . — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:02:36 GMT

Thanks again, everyone.

Tarin, that's an interesting point about vibrations. I'd been looking for the buzzy/tingling stuff to have some sort of periodic component -- it hadn't occurred to me that the it could be a carrier medium for the frequency. What am I looking for -- something akin to amplitude modulation or something? I'll also try to consciously relax my eyes the next time I feel tension there.

J Adam G, you might be on to something. I may have had a slight taste of disgust yesterday. As I was eating lunch I was trying to eat mindfully, as I often do if I'm eating alone. Almost immediately as I established clear mindfulness on the tactile and taste sensations of eating, I noticed an aversion and my mind wanted to pull away from the sensations. It's not that they were unpleasant or in fact any different from other times I've done it, but rather that my mind not wanting them. Very shortly thereafter I got interrupted and that was that.....

Had a difficult sit last night as well. Lots of discomfort, restlessness and aversion.

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 04:51:49 GMT

Florian Weps:

Hi Tarin,

the prisoner greco:

are you able to distinguish between 3rd and 4th samatha jhana? what is the difference like for you?

3rd: delightfully fuzzy and unfocussed around the edges. With a visual object, there's a halo. With the inner sound, there's a cathedral background choir-like effect from "up and behind".

4th: clear and crisp all around, sober, everything in its proper place, very spatial way of perceiving things. Body sensations are tuned down almost to numbness. The inner sound appears to come from a clearly defined source. Space around sensations is very obvious.

The difference in clarity is a lot like the difference between snuggling between the sheets in the morning, and towelling off after the morning shower.

i asked about the difference between 3rd and 4th jhana to make sure you're distinguishing between them correctly. from your descriptions, i gather that you are, and so also think that the kind of tuning you've practised doing with the helicopter vibes may be an effective way to not just move into 4th jhana but also to fine-tune within it.

have you noticed, by the way, that what's in between the helicopter vibes, when its not interrupted by those vibes' occurrence, is the same as the 'numbness' of 4th jhana (such that the 'fabric' of 4th jhana is almost like 3rd jhana but without the vibrations)? if so, you may notice that this numbness comprises sensations, but that they present as a formation, and not by way of flashing in and out; while the formation is still coming and going, the mind that comes and goes with the formation is so in-tune with it that the formation's arising and passing is indistinct from the seeing itself.

as such, the trick here is to 'see' the comings-and-goings that are seeing the formations as separate (hint: the seeing itself is coming and going). your attention/awareness has a frame-rate; tune into it and cessation will occur.

Mahasi Sayadaw:

The objects noticed and the consciousness noticing them cease altogether...

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 04:31:30 GMT

Interesting last sit: After noting the directionlessness for a while, my perception of tranquility and sight clarified significantly: sight was completely noiseless and silent. Tranquility, also quiet but distinctly different, had a spatial position, "hovering" somewhere above all the busy stuff.

I got fascinated by the silent quality of the visual experience. Must note that fascination on my next sit.

Noting practice is really amazing. Thanks, Tarin, for directing me back to it!

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:48:27 GMT

Hi Tarin,

the prisoner greco:

are you able to distinguish between 3rd and 4th samatha jhana? what is the difference like for you?

RE: How long does it last?

Clayton James Lightfoot — Sun, 18 Apr 2010 03:39:56 GMT

When I finally pushed through to equanimity the dark night had only lasted a few weeks. But before that cycles arising and passing I had been in the Dark Night for years.... so... hard to say. Its a natural process, coming to grips with the nature of reality is really scary sometimes... be vigilant, but don't beat yourself up for feeling bad during the DN just (As daniel says) watch for the bleed through

RE: Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

tarin greco — Sat, 17 Apr 2010 05:08:17 GMT

Florian Weps:

The helicopter rotor vibes become increasingly clear over the next few minutes. (dark night) It takes about 10 minutes to get here. If I start focussing on them I enter fairly hard fourth jhana, though in a slightly forced way, as if wiggling through a tight place before the jhana really opens up (early eq)

are you able to distinguish between 3rd and 4th samatha jhana? what is the difference like for you?

Florian Weps:

the prisoner greco:

[1] which is why people who are taught to master the jhanas via concentration practice first are taught to get 4th jhana and then make the 'switch' to investigation, when the switch will be easy, and they will have a straight shot at path.

Any tips for making that "switch" effectively are highly appreciated. You saw in my description what I'm attempting to do. For a while I thought the slowly vibrating vertigo thing was some formless realm or formation or something, but I'm not so sure anymore.

Thanks for your help,
Florian

based on your sit report, i am inclined to say that you aren't noting enough in equanimity. pay attention to specific aspects of the experience.. what is it like to be in equanimity? are you noting the silence? are you noting those 'quiet stretches'? are you noting the tranquility? are you noting the sense of time passing? are you noting the mind that seems to be noticing all this? are you noting intent and desire when those things show up? and are you noticing the tranquility when they don't? are you noting the sense of distance? are you noting the directionless-ness? are you noting the spacing out... particularly 'what' you're spacing out into?

note more intently, don't miss anything. don't be afraid to shake it up, don't be afraid to 'break' the equanimity by investigating it. you don't want to settle for a solidified samatha-like state, you want to go beyond it.

tarin

Dark night "idling overhead helicopter rotor" vibes

Florian Weps — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:57:54 GMT

I split this off another thread. Context:

the prisoner greco:

Florian Weps:

@Tarin, "helicopter": yes, frequently, as in "each sit, if I pay attention to it". While I perceive the "inner sound" whenever I choose to, the "flap-flap" modulation takes a few seconds of concentration and more quiet surroundings, as it's more "subtle". About a year ago, I decided to do noting practice on it, and got dropped into 4th jhana during one sit, when the noting solidified into something more samatha-like.

Do you get this, too, then?

i would get this frequently for years, until i was on that retreat i mentioned above, during which i started getting it in massive doses, and toward the end of which i started panicking about my time running out, as those are late dark night vibrations and i was getting completely swallowed by them (disappearing into them, like a person disappears for a while under a massive wave in the ocean - going temporarily unconscious). has this been happening to you at all? what have you been doing in your practice lately?

Dark night vibes, like you say. I was never overwhelmed by them, though.

My practice:

Two to three sits a day, at least 40 minutes each, sometimes up to an hour in the evening. In addition, short bits of noting when walking around, eating my lunch etc. Weather permitting, I do walking meditation during lunch break, thus one of the three "sits" is often really a walk.

The first sit of a day is mainly samatha practice, practicing the jhanas with several objects (candle flame, inner sound, breath/energy, meditation word).

On the other sit(s) I do noting practice. With the breath as object, this is how a typical sit goes: A few moments of fairly fast, chaotic breath vibrations, then a stretch where I get mildly distracted by plans, bad conscience, and things to do (cause and effect, I guess), then a few itches and tensions (3C). Then the eyelids colors light up, "energy" wells up from the abdomen. Over the next few minutes, energy sensations an eyelid lights rise and fall with the breath (A&P). Then there's a noticeable shift, energy sensations recede down, and slight shivers and air currents on the skin are very noticeable (Dissolution). The eyelid lights move out to the periphery, leaving an "eclipse" in the center. The helicopter rotor vibes become increasingly clear over the next few minutes. (dark night) It takes about 10 minutes to get here. If I start focussing on them I enter fairly hard fourth jhana, though in a slightly forced way, as if wiggling through a tight place before the jhana really opens up (early eq). If I don't focus on the slow vibrations, there's another stretch of unpleasant sensations, getting the "energy tickles" and wanting to shift posture, until this passes with an obvious shift and I enter a somewhat soft, less bright (in an awareness sense) 4th jhana (early eq). Either way, once in 4th Jhana, I ease up on the noting and instead try to find out what's hiding in the space between my visual sensations (which seem to be "in front") and sound (which seem to be "behind"), or the sound and the energy accumulation behind the brows, or the space "outside" this sphere of sensations. Speaking of spheres, the visual field of eyelid lights will actually form something like a sphere. Investigating like this, the "distance" between the sounds behind and the lights in front diminishes until they are adjacent, like the visual sphere moving into my head, which sometimes results in "losing direction", or vertigo without the nausea, and sometimes to a sense of spacing out. This will happen repeatedly, with more "quiet" strechtes of harder Jhana in between (it's all pretty tranquil anyway) until the sit is over.

I was in a similar place two times over the course of the past year, and both times lost momentum around here. This time, I'm using two crude but (so far) effective methods to keep sitting regularly: rewarding myself with the next samatha sit, and crossing off sits on a checklist.

the prisoner greco:

Florian Weps:

About a year ago, I decided to do noting practice on it, and got dropped into 4th jhana during one sit, when the noting solidified into something more samatha-like.

No stream entry yet, but this time around equanimity seems more equanimous and less engaging than the last two times: been here before, big deal. I'm curious what the Jhanas will be like after stream entry, though.

the prisoner greco:

RE: How long does it last?

J Adam G — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:01:29 GMT

I'm not sure what you mean by "full-body dissolution." The Dissolution stage of insight meditation is what happens after the A&P and it's easier to see the endings of sensations rather than the beginnings or middles. It can contain a range of feeling-tones, but it's usually mostly neutral to mildly negative stuff. That said, early to mid Dissolution might include some pleasant post-A&P afterglow that feels like a cool, calm, equanimous bliss. This would, in fact, be the third vipassana jhana.

Dissolution is commonly associated with feelings of laziness or sloth. Dissolution might feel like Dante Alighieri's description of Limbo from the Divine Comedy -- untormented sighing.

No matter how Dissolution shows itself, you are probably a dark night yogi if you have had A&P stuff and after it, you found that it seemed harder to focus during meditation.

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

J Adam G — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:51:23 GMT

In the dark night, vibrations can definitely be like that. In Dissolution, it's hard to see much of anything. Careful observation might reveal a clear view of the ends of sensations, but it's hard to express how that experience actually feels. Later in the dark night, the "vibrations" can be fast and irregular and complex.

See MCTB for Daniel's explanation that in the dark night, vibrations stop being like regular and gentle easy-listening music and become more like complex, dissonant jazz with all kinds of different rhythms happening at the same time. I believe this is especially typical of mid-to-late dark night, but some of this stuff could start showing up in Fear. It's done that with me. In fact, from late Dissolution through Misery, I often have the early dark night "drum beat" and the irritating panoramic stuff happening at the same time. By Disgust, it's usually all complex irritating stuff.

What you described was classic Third Characteristics, then A&P, then Dark Night. Attention feels like it sucks during the dark night, and it kind of does. You will probably need to keep some mindfulness aimed at keeping your concentration up during your sits, though not so much that you're getting distracted from actually observing sensations in a detached way. However, a return to the pre-dark-night attention just isn't going to happen yet, and it shouldn't be expected. That's not an excuse to slack off on attempts to strengthen and balance out the Five Spiritual Facuties -- rather, it's a reason to believe meditation technique is working correctly even if it feels like you can't focus right.

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

tarin greco — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:02:43 GMT

Abingdon .:

Leading up to the eyegasms in the earlier sits was just a vague sense of fear with a tension or tightness in the chest. No other unusual symptoms.

No eyegasms in last night's sit, but early into it there was a brief occurrence of fear again, lasting at most a few tens of seconds. The sit beyond that was uneventful, except for the aforementioned slight lack of focus and slight wandering mind.

just a suggestion: try keeping your eye muscles more relaxed so that the waves of sensation (energy/tension/etc) can go through that area rather than triggering event there. see if being able to keep that kind of stuff circulating (rather than climaxing) powers your mindfulness at all.

Abingdon .:

RE: vibrations -- I guess what I'm not getting about vibrations is that what I'd think of as a vibration would have cyclical nature over time and could therefore be said to have a frequency. What I'm experience I think of more a "static" or "snow" or something like that that does not have a frequency (or, like white noise, is composed of multiple frequencies none of which are predominant & detectable). I understand that it's very possible I'm making too big a deal of it! ;-)

those are vibrations; patterns show up out of the snow sometimes (and sometimes out of an empty, quiet, almost-imperceptible background).

tarin

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

tarin greco — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:56:02 GMT

Florian Weps:

About a year ago, I decided to do noting practice on it, and got dropped into 4th jhana during one sit, when the noting solidified into something more samatha-like.

what you're describing is a really effective way to move a bunch of your mind from re-observation to equanimity, which latter is, by its very nature, much more samatha-like (the difference between 4th samatha jhana and 4th vipassana jhana is slim compared to the difference between the previous ones[1]). did you get stream-entry yet?

tarin

[1] which is why people who are taught to master the jhanas via concentration practice first are taught to get 4th jhana and then make the 'switch' to investigation, when the switch will be easy, and they will have a straight shot at path.

RE: How long does it last?

Aziz Solomon — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:56:00 GMT

Thanks for your reply. I had read in another thread that full-body dissolution/ bhanga was a sign of entering the Dark Night. If I haven't yet experienced this, is it unlikely that I have yet entered the Dark Night?

RE: How long does it last?

Bruno Loff — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:14:18 GMT

For me it lasted one year. For some people it lasts longer. In an intense retreat setting, it might last only a few days. I think that part of the process that happens during the longer dark nights really needs time to happen. Stuff is changing in the nervous system.

How long does it last?

Aziz Solomon — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:47:35 GMT

I suspect there may be no one-size-fits-all answer to this, but is there any approximate guide to how many hours of focused meditation it tends to take to get through the Dark Night from beginning to end and to enter Equanimity?

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

Abingdon . — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:58:51 GMT

Thanks, everyone, for both the input and the metta!

My focus early in the week had been very keen and sharp, but for the last two days it's been somewhat more difficult to stay on my object. I guess that reinforces the idea that I'm stumbling around in DN land.

Leading up to the eyegasms in the earlier sits was just a vague sense of fear with a tension or tightness in the chest. No other unusual symptoms.

No eyegasms in last night's sit, but early into it there was a brief occurrence of fear again, lasting at most a few tens of seconds. The sit beyond that was uneventful, except for the aforementioned slight lack of focus and slight wandering mind.

RE: vibrations -- I guess what I'm not getting about vibrations is that what I'd think of as a vibration would have cyclical nature over time and could therefore be said to have a frequency. What I'm experience I think of more a "static" or "snow" or something like that that does not have a frequency (or, like white noise, is composed of multiple frequencies none of which are predominant & detectable). I understand that it's very possible I'm making too big a deal of it! ;-)

If you have any more comments, I'd love to hear them. And I'll keep sitting!

Cheers!

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

Florian Weps — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 04:39:10 GMT

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

tarin greco — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:38:20 GMT

hi abingdon,

to this sea of voices, i'll add:

once, on retreat, i stumbled into the most focused, concentration-heavy, turbo-charged super-powerful blissful energetic experience ever, and was convinced - when i was coherent enough to be able to think at all - i was crossing the a&p for the first time ever and that the past almost-decade of hard, dedicated practice and every manner of experience i'd had during it was somehow all just something else, like 'early/immature/weak a&p'. and that everything i thought was the dark night was just lowly 3rd nana (comprehension of the three characteristics) after all.

then about 10 minutes later i got stream-entry.

tarin

ps- florian i caught your note about the helicopter idle rotor vibration. do you experience that frequently?

RE: A&P during Dark Night?

Jackson Wilshire — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:07:57 GMT

Daniel M. Ingram:

Zappy, rushing, anything-gasm: probably A&P, obviously.

As to what came before it, people tend to underestimate 3rd ñana (Three Characteristics), which can really suck.

Daniel brings up something important, here. The 3rd ñana (Three Characteristics) and the dukkha ñanas - especially the 10th ñana (Re-Observation) - can be very similar. I've often thought I was in the dark night stage of a cycle, only to cross the A&P and realize I was hanging out in 3rd ñana all along.

Another thing to consider is that the more one moves from the lowest stage to the highest stage available to them, the more that a groove or canal opens up between them. That is to say, one is likely to revisit all available ñanas during each sustained period of mindful attention. For example, prior to attaining stream entry, I used to cycle from 1st ñana all the way up to 11th ñana at least once during every sit; sometimes more than once. The more I passed through them, the less I was stuck in any of them for any significant period of time.

All this to say that you're probably experiencing A&P events often because you're cycling past them during most sits. The key is to cycle up to the highest ñana available and then keep practicing. You'll likely chip away at the false ceiling more and more as you do this.

I also wish you the best in regards to your relationship and your work situation. If you need to take a break from meditation, you should. You're not going to lose the progress you've made by taking a break to put your everyday life in order.

Take care,
~Jackson