RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Daniel Johnson — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:29:46 GMT

Nikolai .:

I can only speak from this point of view and not for any of the others on RT. Each needs to be seen as separate personalities rather than as a whole because that's a road that oversimplifies and fosters misunderstanding.

This was needed to be said and clarified for future readers. Impressions can be wrong. Thanks for saying this, Thassa.

Perhaps, then, it's also worth stating that the DhO is a community of individuals as well, and there is no single DhO point of view, (as this might not be immediately clear in this thread as well.)

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Brian Eleven — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:03:22 GMT

Nick,
Thanks for the link, I haven't gotten through it all yet, but "a fun conversation" only scratches the surface. My stomach hurts from laughing! Winnie the Pooh, Santa Claus, I saw Batman somewhere, everyone must get their own fictional character(imaginary friend). OK I appoligize for that one.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:57:02 GMT

Elena Nezh:

of cause more can be done. It's a beginning to an end. Without beginning - just paddling on the shores. One need to dip in a stream. Many paddling for ages, seems like a lot of work done, but still on the shores - self perfecting itself. Still paddling on the shore is necessary for some. It was necessary for me for many years.

Hi Elena,

The above statement is something you keep repeating in various ways and doesn't clarify anything but it does kind of show what Brian is pointing to.

Brian:

Some seem to only want to fall back onto the standard responses, it almost seems like a script is being read.

It would be nice to hear about your current practice if there is one, and why if there is not one, and how you are going about "doing more". This is in order to clarify these doubts, which in your last response were not cleared up. It is what we do here at the DhO. We do not rely on 'standard responses' without detailed explanations. 'Standard responses' are taken as sidestepping and avoiding the questions here. It rings alarm bells for many. You have decided to engage people at the DhO. This is how it goes.

It would be good for your own cause, if you'd clarify these clouds of doubt with some details. Just like Thassa did. If not, all good. But the clouds of doubt remains about where you are teaching from.

Kind regards,

Nick

P.S. Seeing as Thassa has established that it is a very individual thing concerning what one does after the no self realization, then it makes sense to take each RT direct pointer who posts here separately. You are after all acting in the role of a teacher/coach/guide etc. It's only fair to ask these questions especially here at the DhO.

Edited to add a fun conversation of an RTer versus Thervadan Buddhists: Some of the things said may relate to the DhO.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9021

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 16:02:02 GMT

upa sika:

Brian Eleven:

I find it very interesting that the RT folks seem to have no interest in even entertaining the thought that they are not fully enlightened.)

Nikolai .:

But they may be missing out on what more they can do and conveying the incorrect notion that there is nothing more one 'can' do.

It seems that at least Ciaran believes that there is more that can be done:

http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=367

CIARAN but once in
listen
once in
the state can be deepened
and that's your next play
the guy
who is the best in the world
at deepening the state
isn't me
i'm the specialise
in transmission
to deepen
well
look a little closer to home
for just south of the danish border
lies a land called germany
from which a man called Eckhart Tolle has come
he's your next port of call

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Brian Eleven — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:42:32 GMT

Thassa,
Thank you for responding to my post.
You are very right that each person needs to be dealt with individually, unfortunately not all people associated with RT seem willing to interact as individuals. Some seem to only want to fall back onto the standard responses, it almost seems like a script is being read. I appreciate your willingness to interact instead of parroting a few simple lines. The grouping together of all RTers shows my own ignorance, thanks for pointing that out.
I also appreciate that you are genuinely trying to help others, and that the questions of how to proceed from where you find yourself must be a difficult one. Fortunately for everyone involved I don't know enough about enlightenment to argue with anyone about it. I wish you all the best!

Metta

Brian.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Brian Eleven — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:08:54 GMT

""Brian, how do you know people do not practice? What is the practice? You have all these assumptions, it's not even funny, it's sad. There is nobody to save, so you spared.[/quote]""

Thank you for the response, it answers many of my questions.

Metta.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

upa saka — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:42:03 GMT

Brian Eleven:

I find it very interesting that the RT folks seem to have no interest in even entertaining the thought that they are not fully enlightened.)

Nikolai .:

But they may be missing out on what more they can do and conveying the incorrect notion that there is nothing more one 'can' do.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:26:37 GMT

Nick, in response to your question:

"The notion that there is "no where to rest" is confusing. What do you mean? By rest, do you mean that there is no 'end goal'? It is statements like this that lead to the impressions that cause doubt. There would be those here at the DhO, that would disagree with the seemingly absolute statements like that. Such statements need to be clarified for the sake of all those here. "

It's a wholly personal statement. Life unfolds. From this (my, for lack of a better word) perspective, it means there is no where to place a stake, no controller.

Hope that clarifies things.

Be well,

Thassa

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:03:13 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Thanks, Nick and Brian.

Your welcome. :-)

This was needed to be said and clarified for future readers. Impressions can be wrong. Thanks for saying this, Thassa.

What we've done here is to offer direct pointers to seeing no self for anyone interested. Why? Because it seems to be the common base to all enlightenment teachings. From that point, where the individual chooses to take their practice or deepening is not for anyone to say. But this basic seeing is the lock we are driven to break open. I use the term "we" loosely here, please understand that. This is not a RT vs. DhO endeavor.

A statement like this was needed from someone representing the Ruthless Truth Direct Pointing approach. Thanks, Thassa.

I understand that Tarin, TJ, and you, Nick, are coming from the same place of intent. If there's something that can help others, you are pointing to it. That's the reason I started this post of with a thank you. I understand what's at the heart of it.

Some do understand, some may not.

But what happens now? Do we begin a dialogue which I've often seen become one of "my enlightenment is better than yours". Whom will that serve? That's the question I'm wrestling with now as I write this.

That dialogue is up to those who wish to entertain and explore the possibility of further progress. There is no need for "my enlightenment is better than yours" attitudes. They help no one. This goes for both sides and should be taken into account when posting here at the DhO. People can post and insinuate whatever they want elsewhere. Here, transparency and clarity should reign supreme. The fact that people have expressed their doubts in this thread is enough to ask one of the guys immersed in the RT approach to clarify and answer those doubts. This is inline with what happens here at the DhO whenever other techniques, claims to enlightenment or stages of progress and claims to what "enlightenment" and stages of progress are all about, are expressed.

I have not come up with all of the answers and don't think I will. There is nowhere to rest, Nick. How do I claim to do that here?

It's enough to say that this is a very individual thing, and I respect and appreciate your answer, Thassa. Grouping all the RTers into one neat description comes from misunderstandings that arise from lack of clarity. Thanks for clarifying for the sake of those at the DhO. :-)

The notion that there is "no where to rest" is confusing. What do you mean? By rest, do you mean that there is no 'end goal'? It is statements like this that lead to the impressions that cause doubt. There would be those here at the DhO, that would disagree with the seemingly absolute statements like that. Such statements need to be clarified for the sake of all those here.

Thanks for answering respectfully.

Much appreciated.

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:43:33 GMT

Thanks, Nick and Brian.

I can only speak from this point of view and not for any of the others on RT. Each needs to be seen as separate personalities rather than as a whole because that's a road that oversimplifies and fosters misunderstanding.

What we've done here is to offer direct pointers to seeing no self for anyone interested. Why? Because it seems to be the common base to all enlightenment teachings. From that point, where the individual chooses to take their practice or deepening is not for anyone to say. But this basic seeing is the lock we are driven to break open. I use the term "we" loosely here, please understand that. This is not a RT vs. DhO endeavor.

I understand that Tarin, TJ, and you, Nick, are coming from the same place of intent. If there's something that can help others, you are pointing to it. That's the reason I started this post of with a thank you. I understand what's at the heart of it.

But what happens now? Do we begin a dialogue which I've often seen become one of "my enlightenment is better than yours". Whom will that serve? That's the question I'm wrestling with now as I write this.

I have not come up with all of the answers and don't think I will. There is nowhere to rest, Nick. How do I claim to do that here?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:04:24 GMT

Elena Nezh:

Brian Eleven:

I find it very interesting that the RT folks seem to have no interest in even entertaining the thought that they are not fully enlightened. I may be incorrect, but the opportunity to learn more(drop more of the self) seems to be completely ignored, which is sad. It's difficult, after seeing this behaviour, to think that they aren't really interested in progressing on the path, just scoring points by liberating others(who is this meant to impress?). While liberating others is a very noble goal, the more "advanced" one is the better able they would be to help others, and the more people they would be able to help.
This reminds me a great deal of the fellow who came up to me on the street yesterday wanting to "share the good news" but had no interest in hearing me. It seems to be a one way street that is used to stroke the ego. "I have the Truth, allow me to enlighten you".
I could quote 'til the cows come home about the "empty bowl", beginners mind, etc, etc. from many different traditions. It seems clear that RT is full of experts full of knowledge with no room for anymore. This isn't meant as a criticism, it's an easy trap to fall into, I have and may again. But maybe give it some thought.
PS. I don't need you to save me, but thanks in advance for the offer.

Brian, how do you know people do not practice? What is the practice? You have all these assumptions, it's not even funny, it's sad. There is nobody to save, so you spared.

The drive-by advertisements by some don't really offer much in the way of details into the practices the RTers are using to "deepen" or progress on the path. There is talk of a "demon theory" which hints at that, but it is still unclear. It would be helpful for the DhO if some RTers would perhaps elaborate on the further practices they are putting to good use in order to progress from their no-self realization. This is important for the DhO as it is something that is not clear. And here, people ask questions and make statements like Brian's above because of that lack of clarity. Many people here have also realised that there is no self and are continuing to progress to further levels of liberation from suffering.

It would seem this school of direct pointing is still young and not sure of what to do next after they get to the no-self realization. That is the impression I get. There is seemingly also the impression that some RTers convey that there is nothing more to do after seeing that there is no self. "I'm enlightened now, so let's save the world". Here is an excerpt from a RT blog:

Enlightenment eliminates suffering.
That’s one of the reasons why people search for it. They’re told that it eliminates suffering because you can see evidence of peace and bliss in those who are enlightened. Well, they’re half right. It doesn’t magically or supernaturally protect you from suffering, which is what most people think this means. That’s kind of silly, because then you’re afraid of suffering, which really is another form of suffering–you’re a slave to suffering because you’re trying to escape it, and your actions are all dictated by what causes suffering and a need to go the opposite direction.

Enlightenment doesn’t protect you from suffering; it makes you impervious to suffering. You’ll still suffer (by which I mean feel bad, get angry, have desires that are unfulfilled, cry, and all the whole range of negative emotions and experiences). It just won’t trap you. For example, I used to beat myself up over getting angry. Someone would say ordo something that would tick me off, and I would get furious in return. Whatever happened next, the worst part was when I’d be alone again, and think to myself, “I shouldn’t have gotten angry! I should know better!” and proceed to get angry at myself for having gotten angry. It’s a cycle that traps people, and it’s not just for anger, it’s for everything. You feel a certain way, and then you make yourself continue feeling that way because you dwell on it, thus creating a feedback loop wherein your suffering causes more suffering, your anger causes more anger, your pain begets more pain. Ever ask someone who’s in the middle of a tantrum why they were so angry and have them reply, “BECAUSE I AM!?” Yeah, it’s that kind of thing.

Enlightenment stops you from going into the feedback process. You don’t suffer for suffering’s sake. You suffer, notice it, and then it moves on. Some gurus have suggested watching, but it’s not really the watching that stops the suffering. It’s the breaking of the feedback loop, which enlightenment does. Perhaps the most relevant to your personal reasons as to why become enlightened, is enlightenment frees you from suffering. http://truthstrike.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/how-to-enlightenment-v1.pdf

But they may be missing out on what more they can do and conveying the incorrect notion that there is nothing more one 'can' do. That is another impression after reading a few RTer blogs. This can seem quite "limited" to many, and it probably would be a wise move to share practices post no-self here in this thread to put to rest some of those lingering doubts many may feel by clarifying and dispelling those possibly wrong surface impressions, rather than making remarks that are not helpful.

Would some RTers care to elaborate on what they are doing 'after' their realization in order to progress? And where do they hope to end up? How far do they think they can take advantage of the realization to change or even eliminate all forms of suffering, sublte, gross, sticky, not sticky? Do they think this is not possible and/or desirable? Do they think it is possible and/or desireable? Why and why not?

You see, there are a few differing ideals as to where one should rest their laurels here at the DhO. One of them is very high: The end of all forms of suffering, self or no self, the end of "being"/becoming. Some here call that path the path to Actual Freedom. There is a wiki on it. It also seems similar to the buddha's ideal of freedom from the fetters. This will help clarify how far one can go with the direct pointing approach in order to avoid the possible traps where one could get stuck and stagnate if the approach and 'ideal' stops at a certain place. This is the DhO and informed decisions are exactly that, informed.

Clarity and transparency please!

:-)

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:17:50 GMT

Brian Eleven:

Brian, how do you know people do not practice? What is the practice? You have all these assumptions, it's not even funny, it's sad. There is nobody to save, so you spared.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Brian Eleven — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 01:59:00 GMT

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 20:17:43 GMT

Hi Tarin.

Well, I really need to look at this. Because in reading my own comments, it occurred to me that language is a bit of a hindrance here. For instance, if I say "fear arises" that could imply that fear was experienced. But.... it seems that sensations and thoughts arose that were identified as what was previously labeled fear but were not experienced as "having fear". They were familiar, however, and identifiable as such. So, I believe you use the term "affective" in this case. But even then language is tricky. What would be affected? In that regard, I would say they are not.

But I'll be honest. I'd like more time with this question. I have no background in any of the terms and have actually shied away from too much reading on this. This is unfolding as it will, which seems good.. ok... fine.

Thank you, TJ and Tarin both. I realize you are returning the offer, doing some pointing as well.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

tarin greco — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 19:02:27 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

TJ Broccoli:

Thassa Amzwar:

There is the presence of reality. Here, there's typing, the presence of typing, the reality of the hands, keyboard... marks appear on the screen...
...As for an experience of time? There isn't a single experience except for, as you can imagine, an awareness of an ongoing present moment.

what is being in the present?
what being is in the present?
is there a present reality?
if you experience a present reality, then look again...
is there a present reality?
is there a present moment that a human being can sense?
what, then, is sensing this present reality? the senses?
do the senses sense objects at the exact moment they arise?
do the eye sensory data beat the speed of light?
do the ear sensory data beat the speed of sound?
do the nerve endings send touch data in zero time, so fast that the word "send" is not applicable?
what is the intuition that the present reality can be sensed?

Hey TJ!

Yes, as a matter of fact, there isn't a present moment as it is coming and going at the same time. There is no demarcation. It doesn't exist as a "present moment" at all.

Excellent questions, thank you!

hi thassa,

as you evidently appreciated the above questions, i am writing on the chance that you may also appreciate the ones below. but first, some context for them:

it appears that tj broccoli's comments regarding the varied understandings of 'self' (and related terms)[1] apply equally to 'present moment' (and related terms)... for while, in your most recent reply, you wrote:

Thassa Amzwar:

(...) there isn't a present moment as it is coming and going at the same time.

earlier, in this same thread, you wrote:

Thassa Amzwar:

There is fear. No one fearing. No suffering the fear.
There is anger. No one angry. No suffering the anger.

and so the obvious questions (assuming you have had a sufficiently deep insight into the nature of arising and passing) are as follows:

devoid of a present moment, dependent upon what conditions does fear arise?
devoid of a present moment, dependent upon what conditions does anger arise?

tarin

[1]

TJ Broccoli:

*even the words self, Self, self-ing, selfless, not/non/no-self and "seeing through of self" carry different meanings for different people, whether intellectually or experientially. the exact same transcendent "total no-self" condition to one person may be interpreted and labeled by another person as an experience still full of "self stuff" that could and should still be dissolved. without hammering out those differences first, we could end up going in circles talking to ourselves and communicate nothing.

wonder what happens if we do some "direct pointing" at something a bit more subtle than the self illusion...

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 18:12:56 GMT

TJ Broccoli:

Thassa Amzwar:

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

TJ Broccoli — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 16:49:57 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

TJ Broccoli — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 16:47:33 GMT

direct pointing? nice tool! it seems that we've already been doing this here at the dho, but just not in a sweeping machine gun shoot-em-up fashion or any missionary-like approach. hang around a bit and you'll see the way it happens here, both in forum posts and in private messages as experienced meditators see it useful or appropriate to ask no-self related questions to help out (often equally experienced) dharma friends. aside from direct pointing we also do indirect pointing, direct and indirect sharing of meditation techniques, experiences and tips, direct and indirect joking, etc. etc. as we welcome discussions of all techniques, tools, and advice for developing insight and becoming free from suffering. one thing we value highly here is the common appreciation that there are different strokes for different folks for swimming towards the same or similar goals, and with this in mind, we pay close attention to the uniqueness and peculiarities of each person, including their practice experience, failures, obstacles, plateaus, successes, demonstrated insight, beliefs, goals, expectations, preferences, limitations, language*, and exchange carefully thought-out advice or suggestions that seem most appropriate to each individual situation. to enable this, we interrogate each other to bits to get to know everything practice/progress-related about one another, attention which I guess could either intimidate or impress newcomers. just as we do here with all the techniques we share, perhaps after more discussion, testing, debating, and fighting about direct pointing of no/non/not-self, we can help each other refine it so that we can learn to use it more and more skillfully and effectively, as appropriate and applicable to the right person at the right time.

*even the words self, Self, self-ing, selfless, not/non/no-self and "seeing through of self" carry different meanings for different people, whether intellectually or experientially. the exact same transcendent "total no-self" condition to one person may be interpreted and labeled by another person as an experience still full of "self stuff" that could and should still be dissolved. without hammering out those differences first, we could end up going in circles talking to ourselves and communicate nothing.

wonder what happens if we do some "direct pointing" at something a bit more subtle than the self illusion...

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Sat, 09 Jul 2011 05:01:04 GMT

I was working with 3 of your guys from this forum. 2 are done. Take them back, if you want, just kiddin

One's work is here:

40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.

Another one I have to compile and will put on the same blog, so stay tuned!

Again, if anyone is sick of seeking, email me.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:03:32 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

BCDEFG, would you like to continue? Please do email.

well i did engage w/ Thassa here, and it did result in a shift. not 100% if it is just another 3rd path-moment or the 4th path or what they are referring to. ill post on their forum and see what's up. fun experiment anyway =).

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

End in Sight — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 14:12:44 GMT

Well, let me amend that. I do see why Alan's worries make sense. Is it really possible for people to be getting enlightened so quickly? Isn't it more likely that they're mistaking something that isn't enlightenment (according to our model) for something that is due to social reasons? Well, I dunno, maybe. But worry about it because that scenario seems more likely in itself, not because you want to nitpick the way they talk about it. People say all sorts of crazy shit about enlightenment depending on their background and personality; unless they come to a community like this one and adopt a more precise model, that's just how it's gonna be.

And, there's still an exact test that would satisfy us, which would be so much more useful than verbal arguments for or against.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

End in Sight — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 14:02:04 GMT

This strikes me as a pointless debate. It's so easy to test whether or not the RT method works (by our standards)---teach someone who has become "enlightened" through it some basic vipassana and see if they can get a cessation. What could be simpler?

Making precise distinctions between the meanings of terms, producing arguments based on possibly idiosyncratic ways that people use words to describe their realization...not useful.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Florian Weps — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:08:15 GMT

Alan Chapman has written up a critique of the Ruthless Truth approach; some interesting points to consider form the article and comments (apart from the to-be-expected hurt sensibilities) include:

The difference between no-self and not-self (important one, IMO, and worthy of a discussion here on DhO)
What happens to the drop-outs of the RT approach
Fooling oneself into believing there is no self

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

upa saka — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 01:13:01 GMT

Daniel Johnson:

This method basically loks like standard MCTB style vipassana with an emphasis on one of the three characteristics (annata). Or put the other way, MCTB vipassana looks like "direct pointing" to three characteristics instead of one. (unless perhaps someone might argue that annata is more "direct" than annicca and dukkha)

Reading through the ruthlesstruth site, my impression is that the active engagement with the guide, the language used, the setting ("the arena/pit") are all part of the method, all serve to create a psychological mind state that leads to the realization of annata, to me this seems very different from the pure technical approach of "just noting" what ever arises. I realize that the latter approach also results in various psychological mind states, it just seems that those are not being directly harnessed towards the goal of realizing non self.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:55:21 GMT

Bruno Loff:

Daniel Johnson:

This method basically looks like standard MCTB style vipassana with an emphasis on one of the three characteristics (annata). Or put the other way, MCTB vipassana looks like "direct pointing" to three characteristics instead of one. (unless perhaps someone might argue that annata is more "direct" than annicca and dukkha)

still... if they could round up all the non-4th pathers off the DhO and have them pop by the end of the week (if popping is equivalent to 4th path), that's pretty fscking direct.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Bruno Loff — Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:05:05 GMT

Daniel Johnson:

Yeah, also I don't buy the supposed directness of it. Saying it is a direct path when one manages to use the method after years and years of practicing vipassana (or being stuck in a dark night, which can produce similar speedup) is not giving the proper importance to everything that happened up to that point... IMO.

Expecting that someone will just get it without going through the necessary steps, although possible for certain special individuals, seems otherwise unrealistic --- but who knows?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Daniel Johnson — Tue, 05 Jul 2011 19:43:21 GMT

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

i'm wondering if he has AF. he reports no ego at all, at least in the posts i've read so far. will have to keep reading.

Ondal:

... You don't live through negative OR positive emotions. It's only reality.

The ego is something that is constructed by the mind on top of reality. Remove ego, and it's only reality left.

...

I perceive myself as reality.

Everything I see in the present moment is reality.

I am the universe being aware of itself. It's completely pure.

I know I have a separate body. I know I have a separate intellect from you.

The body is a tool, the intellect is a tool. Am I those things? No.

Doesn't look much like actual freedom to me.

First... why is a flesh and bloody body declaring that it is not the body? In a very down -to-earth way, this seems a bit silly doesn't it?
Who or what is it that "has" the body, and "has" the intellect and is using the body/intellect as a tool?

Second... "remove ego (something that is created by the mind) and it's only reality left." If one removes the mental construct of self, the emotional felt sense of self (ie. reality) can easily and most often does remain. Hence the distinction between reality and actuality - wherein one must also remove the feeling sense of self (ie. the soul).

Certainly, some of these statements look very similar to what's been said by those who are actually free, but they must be read in the context of the other statements he makes.

Similarly Richard reported having no ego at all for some many years before attaining actual freedom, but all the while the identity still remained intact.

This method basically looks like standard MCTB style vipassana with an emphasis on one of the three characteristics (annata). Or put the other way, MCTB vipassana looks like "direct pointing" to three characteristics instead of one. (unless perhaps someone might argue that annata is more "direct" than annicca and dukkha)

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

. . — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 18:44:37 GMT

Hello Thassa -

Email me. Come to the forum, either the Pit or the Duelling Ground. Interact with any of us.

2. Emailing you, being in my chair/my whatnot - which causes unbinding (do you call this "cracking up" on your site)

Which unbinds: a person's chair (any and all substances in the inconstant here and now/ of one's immediate present) unbind the constancy-seeking entity?

If there is no constancy of self and no constancy of any thing, which site (DhO, rabbithole,eternal now, ruthless, Actual freedom trust) should be used?

We're here with an offer

Welcome.

You present a method, a pit, a dueling ground.

Is this method further from here, the immediate present?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 17:45:35 GMT

Katy,

Email me. Come to the forum, either the Pit or the Duelling Ground. Interact with any of us.

No fee. We're here with an offer.

And... Unbinding sounds like it could be similar to what we call cracking, yes.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

. . — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 17:28:39 GMT

Hello Thassa,

...I'd invite you to take another look at the forum. Everything is there in the open and nothing is hidden. I've answered the questions presented even though what's being offered to the group carries no fee.

1. What then carries a fee if not what's being offered to the group? Do you charge a fee for your "one-on-one duel"?

2. Emailing you, being in my chair/my whatnot - which causes unbinding (do you call this "cracking up" on your site)?

I'm sorry, Katie, but I don't understand and it feels as though there is something you're not asking outright. Speak plainly, please. Are you asking something specific? Please do.

Are the above more clear?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 17:17:47 GMT

I'm sorry, Katie, but I don't understand and it feels as though there is something you're not asking outright. Speak plainly, please. Are you asking something specific? Please do.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

. . — Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:40:13 GMT

Hello Thassa,

What then carries a fee? One-to-one "duel"?

Your gmail, my chair: which should I use to unbind?

May one letter of yours be changed (strike-through)?

Everything is there
in the open and
nothing is hidden

Here being the location of any readers and writer, individually.

[spelling correction: duel]

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:47:39 GMT

ed c:

Nikolai .:

However, I would say that if your approach is effective in what you say it helps do, then I'd advise any pre-path yogis interested in laying down the weight of the illusion of self to use this direct and quick approach to lay down that weight so that it may help in furthering the goal of an actual freedom from malice and sorrow, craving and aversion of all kinds (if that's your goal).

Nick

Nick/Thassa,
I’m the kind of guy Nick is talking about. No question, from my perspective this is very helpful. I had my first real shift in perception yesterday (Saturday) after spending significant portion of Friday reading Ciaran’s blog and trying to apply the technique! I could write a book on what happened yesterday but let me try and condense it. It’s important to say that what I perceived yesterday seems gone, at least vastly diminished.

I also need to note; I’m leaving in 3 days for my 10 day Goenka retreat and can’t spend much time away from my meditation and perception practice. With that said, I hesitated spending ANY time on this RT stuff on Friday, but it turned out to be an AWESOME thing from a perspective that would be helpful on the Gonenka retreat too. Here is the brief version of what I did and what happened:

Friday, read the blog started applying the RT method of “do I exist”. I was focused less on looking for “me” and more on trying to perceive that just this moment exists. Read from his blog and the “Brutal Beginnings” file and had flashes of understanding that was more than intellectual. However, went to bed thinking that was cool but I didn’t “pop” as they say.

Woke up on Saturday, things seemed brighter, different. It took me a bit to realize it, then it was clear, something REALLY was different…but what? Started reading the notes I took from the RT info and I could now perceive “just this moment”. I could think about this moment being everything and wham, “I” felt it, “I” saw it, “I” was stuck in it. To be VERY clear, “I” was still there, so was feeling, but vastly diminished and perhaps for pockets of time “I” really was totally gone, it was hard to tell. Here are some specific things that happened:

1) I suddenly thought about time never ending and never beginning. It’s just always “now”. Of course it never began and will never end. How could it? It’s ALWAYS just now! That made perfect sense in way it never did before. It wasn’t a concept; it was a fact and now it was really understood.
2) Saw a picture of Jack Kornfield on a magazine cover and his face looked 3D, real, alive. I stared at it for about a minute lost in how amazing it looked.
3) Meditated and it was AWESOME. I got locked into the breath for 30 minutes *. The normal mind chatter was almost gone. I could apply Nick’s advice from Tarin and I could do it in a way that was NOT possible just the day before. It was simpler, not entirely effortless, but close.
4) Talked to my neighbor. After I was done, and only after I was done, I noticed it was effortless. Never once did I think about “him” or what he might be thinking about “me”. That may seem trivial but that’s HUGE and that lack of awareness of self lasted much of the day. I didn’t TRY and stop obsessing/judging, it was just GONE. Nothing to try and stop. Quiet.
5) While I was scared to do it (for fear of losing it) I forced myself to try and perceive things like I had all my life. A separate me, experiencing life, separate from it. I was NOT able to really see it that way anymore, but I didn’t press too hard. While this new mode of perceiving was not effortless, it was also not that fragile.
6) Had ice cream with the family. Got lost in how awesome the ice cream looked. Fascinating. Spooked my wife a bit.
7) Was FINALLY able to do what Jill said about noticing shades of color on objects and not just the object. I perceived with judging, without LABELING. I could just notice the qualities of something and that was enough, it was interesting, bordering on fascinating. There was a F**CKING sense of WONDER. That’s what I’m trying to say.
8) Noticed smells like a mofo. I was smelling cinnamon inside of a barbecue smell that was wafting down my street. Distinctly cinnamon, inside the other smell, over and over.
9) The biggest thing is just being able to rest in this moment with nothing else. Got lost in a cartoon my kids were watching. Caught myself literally slack jawed, deeply watching, nothing else was even happening. The noise in my head was quiet. I was comfortably sitting in the now without wanting or needing anything.

Woke up on Sunday, it’s gone, essentially. That same tree that was awesome yesterday today looks like a tree. It’s cool, but not awesome. No matter how hard or how gently I look, nothing. It’s just a tree. DAMN! Yes, this is the present moment and yes when the future comes it will the present moment but there is no “meaning” attached it. “I” am back and “I” feel a sense of time. A “me” to protect and that lives life. A past and a future, a cause and effect. The things I perceived yesterday mean something, they were a glimpse, but I can’t quite “feel” or “see” it anymore. I’ve looked and it’s gone, or hidden. The best way I can describe it is like coming off a high (pick your favorite drink/drug). It’s gone and the world is simply not perceived the same way anymore. It’s like it’s not possible. It’s not lack of effort, it’s gone. I can’t pretend to “feel high” anymore, it’s over. What I have is a memory of something different, something VASTLY better than this. That’s cool and I am grateful for having a true taste of it and it will help me get back. I definitely have a better understanding of what I am looking for. Just wish I knew how to get it back? Going to stop writing and go meditate and think about “no me” and “this moment” some more. Doing my best to stay present and observe.

Lastly, AF is still the goal, no question. I see this like Nick said, a way to remove a sense of self which I will use as a stepping stone to AF in a similar way that I am going to a Goenka retreat to a learn a technique toward a goal of PCE and AF.

Best to all. Take care! Fascinating weekend so far. Life changing…
Ed

Ed, connect with me. I sat ten 10 days Goeka retreats and served more then a dozen. Currently I am working with one of the Goenka Vipassana guy on email. Look up my blog : http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/ it's here: Complete Humanity. I have 3 posts there, read them and email me. I will work one on one with you over the email. What you described in your post here - you had a state. Liberation is NOT a state. I will talk to you later. Email me: becomelight@gmail.com.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:44:21 GMT

katy s:

Anyone,

Just crazy levels of rage exploded out of me. It was pretty messy.

And then something happened, something I didn't expect. Something that totally stunned me.

I cracked someone out. A guy called Dan who'd responded to the original Cogito post - I actually cracked him out.

Let me tell you why this is such big news. The problem of 'Enlightenment' has always been twofold. It's a hard thing to get to, and it's a hard thing to talk about.

What is the rage that exploded out of Ciaran's awakening experience? Who is enraged?

Exactly! I think they may be seeing through the centre point pattern of phenomena that is usually read as seperate entity. YET, what has a stake in getting enraged?

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:41:38 GMT

ed c:

Lastly, AF is still the goal, no question. I see this like Nick said, a way to remove a sense of self which I will use as a stepping stone to AF in a similar way that I am going to a Goenka retreat to a learn a technique toward a goal of PCE and AF.

Best to all. Take care! Fascinating weekend so far. Life changing…
Ed

Booya! :-)

Sounds like you saw perhaps glimpses of the PCE or at least the fact that the felt sense of self is all smoke and mirrors....and thus pure intent may have found its source. Good luck on your course, Ed! You have all the tools and motivation you need now. Now go and cultivate the conditions to get it done!

:-)

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

. . — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:40:35 GMT

Anyone,

What is the rage that exploded out of Ciaran's awakening experience? Who is enraged?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

ed c — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:32:00 GMT

Nikolai .:

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 18:05:38 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Would I be able to answer your questions? But truth is truth. It can't choose whether someone is educated in any particular field, or educated at all. And so after finding truth, I also find that I'm here.

that's what pragmatic dharma is all about. our experience is our experience, it's just what it is =). nice to have you here.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Florian Weps — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 16:33:25 GMT

Hi Meggo,

thanks for your analysis.

Point 4c is probably my biggest concern:

Meggo mu:

4) Most of the freed on RT are vipassanizing / neti, netiing the process (without knowing they do so)
a. they get it that „just look“ means to be 100% present and aware of what comes up
b. so they start to look around in the present moment and see that they are not this and not that
c. M&B  C&E  3Cs  A&P and they think they got it

Just as with MCTB 4th Path, it's a good thing to assume that there is more work to be done.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Florian Weps — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 16:26:58 GMT

Hi Thassa,

Welcome to the DhO. As I mentioned in reply to Ilona's post, I created a new thread for you people to demonstrate your approach with any DhOers eager to get a good whack of Not-Self.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Meggo mu — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 16:26:50 GMT

Nikolai .:

What made your opinion change a bit over time? And what did it change to?
Nick

After this high and the subsiding of the greater part of my suffering there was not much left to do anymore. It seemes that some form of mild anhedonia/ demotivation became my main form of experience...the world and everything that happens is ok, there is not much wanting arising, i don't know what to change and i am kinda bored
this and some form of obvious suffering/ resistance which is still left (like i have some fear of heights and am pretty sure that i would do a lot of things to avoid doing a bungee jump for example) led me to the conclusion that i am not enlightened, which is ok too...
so i figured that i could start meditating to see how that works out.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Florian Weps — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 16:24:58 GMT

Hi Ilona,

Welcome to the Dharma Overground. Thanks for dropping by.

In case you're interested in demonstrating your approach, I started a new thread with an invitation to DhOers who want to try this: Direct Pointing in Action.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:08:54 GMT

Elena Nezh:

Yes, we call it "calenture" here at the DhO. There are a variety of calentures; the dharma calenture, the actualist calenture, the no-self calenture, etc. There are many ways the "ego" obsession identifies and latches on to ways of continuing the flow of becoming. As that is how it continues to exist.

Nickolay (love your name, by the way, Russian?), sign up for my blog : Complete Humanityhttp://completehumanity.blogspot.com/ , would be great to talk more!

Hi Elena,

I wont post on your blog as what I would say is not very helpful nor conducive for your mission to share your realisation with the world. So I'll post it here out of harm's way. Essentially, I agree that your realization that there is no self anywhere, never was to begin with, is a very important realization and a very freeing one. Thus the enthusiasm you have to share it with the world. I also stunk and sometimes still do stink of enlightenment as well. Hehe. But it is only half the story in my experience and the experience of a lot of people here at the DhO. You could rest your laurels where you find yourself, if you so please. But since you posted here, I'll plant this little seed.

You wrote this in your last blogpost:

AFTER AWAKENING:

sound reaches our hearing organ, cognition happening, recognition happening. Since there are no one there to defend, to guard, what's coming in don't get weaved into the story and maintained there, it flows in and through unobstructed. All the energy that before went to this "building", "guarding", "maintenance" process of the self is freed.

There is "no-one" to defend yes, but what has a stake in being (from your blogpost) "open to any emotion pass through without really sticking." What I mean is, what if even those emotions ceased forever? What is your reaction to them ceasing forever? Ask yourself, if there is a negative feeling against such a possibility, exactly what has a stake in continuing to "feel" all those emotions?

I feel deep relaxation happening on all levels of my being. Without me trying or doing anything. Feels like steady delicious

Even when things are all relaxing and fused with a sense of well-being, perhaps the answer to my last question is in the quote above from your blogpost.

You could rest your laurels there, if it pleases you to do so. OR you could keep seeing through the illusion further.

:-)

Nick

Edited to say Yes, my name is of Russian origins. Granma is from Moscow and Grandpa was from the Ukraine. ;-)

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 13:04:53 GMT

Meggo mu:

But my opinions about this have changed a bit over time.

Hi Meggo,

Thanks for the summary. Very helpful. What made your opinion change a bit over time? And what did it change to?

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Meggo mu — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 08:54:17 GMT

Summary of Ciarans Method
1) Tell people there is no you, tell them to look
2) If they ask questions, don’t answer answer them, just tell them to look
3) If they say they don’t understand, don’t know how to look, insult them
4) Repeat the process
--> so if you ask a ruthless truther something, most of the time you won't get any real answer out of them, they just turn it around, and try to penetrate your reality (a little bit like the socratic method)

Why it works
1) No question get answered so people must get it for themselves
a. Which is really important, because it will get your right hippocampus into play
2) Not only are they supposed to see through the concept of „I“ by themselves
a. You have to transcend concepts from the very beginning
b. You have to look for meaning all by yourself
3) They also have to come up with a method of their own to solve this problem (the only hint they get is „look“)
a. And this is were it is getting tricky and where people get different results
4) Most of the freed on RT are vipassanizing / neti, netiing the process (without knowing they do so)
a. they get it that „just look“ means to be 100% present and aware of what comes up
b. so they start to look around in the present moment and see that they are not this and not that
c. M&B  C&E  3Cs  A&P and they think they got it
5) Some of them may be getting further and reasons for that could be
a. Driving energy
i. Some people on RT are clearly suffering from depression (Ciaran did to bevore his liberation) plus are convinced that seeing through the „I“ will end it for them, so they develop a do-this-or-die approach
1. eckhardt tolle or ramana maharshis process comes to mind
ii. combine that with the hostile atmosphere on the forum and you get aggression too, so your focus strengthens
b. a different approach, not vipassanizing it, different starting points
i. and this depends on the individual and their prior insights
so i just can say how it unfolded for me which was pretty simple:
when i was 16 i figured out that there was no objective reality and i had no free will
a few years later i somehow had the feeling, that this me was just a concept, but didn’t look into it, because i was scared (really, really scared)
these insights came just out of thinking/ looking or just out of nothing, they were „mine“, so i understood the meaning behind them, they were not mere concepts to me, but reality
so i got on the forum, and the simple pointer to „there is no you“ in combination with nothing else but my depression at that time drove me to come up with something which was more than just a simple answer which sounded right. i really wanted complete clearness and truth. Truth above anything else, i had nothing to loose anyway. And then suddenly it happened. I somehow combined the prior insights i had with this simple pointer and everything was clear. Really really clear. Some mystical experience followed (the world was clear, i was everything, and everything was only consciousness, but that went away after a few days) , then a myriad of insights flooded my brain. I got high on it, insulted everybody i knew in the following month and felt great (haha). I looked around to figure out if this really is „it“. Stumbled upon guys like eckhardt tolle or u.g. krishnamurti. Especially u.g. seemed to be on the same page as i was at that time. Everything he said (except the things about perception) was like straight out of my mouth, like a speech which i could have given. So it was inevitable that i thought ok this must be „it“. But my opinions about this have changed a bit over time.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Ilona c — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 07:18:37 GMT

Hi, It's ilona here.

As Elena says, direct pointing really works.
I have found ruthless truth last september, was pointed to look directly at no self and boom, got free!
Now I am helping others to see through the illusion of separation and you can check the results on my blog Marked, Eternal

Pointing does not need to be hardcore, only focused. Everyone can see it, it's really simple.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 05:41:08 GMT

Rob ~:

DhO, please don't confuse these "ruthless" people for true practitioners in the developmental sense. I highly doubt Ciaran has achieved Steam Entry or any attainments of the mind. Three years ago he was a confused former pick-up artist with an extreme case of existential angst, who got really screwed up reading from too much Tolle and McKenna. Most of what that community has to offer is uninspiring mental masturbation, by DhO standards.

I wouldn't call that community the "MCTB for the immediate/direct method," as it lacks the same level of sterility, clarity, and accuracy that is so earnestly protected here. A look around those forums and you'll see what I mean... "You just gotta realize, dude, that all you are is awareness and it's like, it's like seeing yourself for the first time and really knowing.... Just KNOWING...dude."

;)

not true practitioners? yep, come and sit with me several hours vipassana. Have to warn you, you can't move even a hair, ok?

Guys, this is just a joke how people hold on to their dharma path. Ever heard "Kill the Buddha?" of cause you did. So kill it.

I own a post on ordinariness to Nikolay, I was just busy working with 2 people on email, and in life, so I am behind. But I will get to it, Nikolay! I am soooo confused with this forum, I found myself lost here, and answering in different threads

Nickolay (love your name, by the way, Russian?), sign up for my blog : Complete Humanityhttp://completehumanity.blogspot.com/ , would be great to talk more!

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 03:54:45 GMT

Rob ~:

Rob, I understand your cynicism, believe it's healthy, and I'd invite you to take another look at the forum. Everything is there in the open and nothing is hidden. It is "staffed" entirely by volunteers, not just one individual, so I'm not sure how pointing out anything about a single individual is telling of the whole. What's more, no one here is obligated to engage.

I've answered the questions presented even though what's being offered to the group carries no fee. What, in your opinion, is the harm in inquiring?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

herpderp ~ — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 03:35:29 GMT

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

C C C — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 01:52:50 GMT

Hi katy,

There is snow monkey, IMO.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 01:28:07 GMT

katy s:

HI C C C

Looks like the topic of enlightenment has reached a tipping point. Next step will be infiltration into the popular media. That's how it feels to me.

Koshima Imo!
Most clean tasty style
Girney coo to you?

Out.
Free.

[Edit: Imo is the given name of a japanese female macaque; Spelling correction 'koshima']

Very good.

Whom, do you suppose, was the 100th?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

. . — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:55:42 GMT

HI C C C

Looks like the topic of enlightenment has reached a tipping point. Next step will be infiltration into the popular media. That's how it feels to me.

Koshima Imo!
Most clean tasty style
Girney coo to you?

Out.
Free.

[Edit: Imo is the given name of a japanese female macaque; Spelling correction 'koshima']

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:00:51 GMT

The length of time varies in my experience, but a matter of hours is not out of the question.

I'm available via several contact points:

email: thassaamzwar@gmail.com
skype: please email for skype
www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena for one-on-one duel. Username: Thassa
And, of course, the arena Pit is available if you'd like to work with several people.

BCDEFG, would you like to continue? Please do email.

Be well.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 22:26:35 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Did I "pass" something? (laugh)

Welcome to the DhO! :-)

I understand the reasons for the questions and don't mean to be flip, but to be honest, when realization happened, any desire to prove it to anyone at all just plain disappeared. It became irrelevant for me to explain it even to those I first contacted... the folks on the RT forum.

It's the norm here to question the shit out of things and people till things and people are clearer. Tis the way it is here. ;-)

I hope these answers are helpful and sufficient to dhO forum members in sussing out whatever is needed in order to engage. I'm here to help point to no-self, however, not to gain credibility. The reason I say this again is that I feel it would be a distraction. That's because the pointers speak for themselves, and the surety of the individual's own answers stand as judge and jury. The case then closes itself.

It would be good to see people get the advertised results of this. For anyone wanting to get 1st path, or even 4th path, an especially if you are having trouble cultivating PCEs, this realization may ease the load and make these other outcomes a possibility. IF the approach works...hopefully, these ruthless truthers aren't talking out their arses. ;-)

Anyone who'd like to give this an honest try, please just let me know.

The approach is supposed to be quick right? Within hours or even minutes. So it isn't such a waste of time to try. At least one will be certain of the validity of what these guys are talking about.

Thanks Thassa,

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 22:01:15 GMT

You're welcome, Nick.

Did I "pass" something? (laugh)

I understand the reasons for the questions and don't mean to be flip, but to be honest, when realization happened, any desire to prove it to anyone at all just plain disappeared. It became irrelevant for me to explain it even to those I first contacted... the folks on the RT forum.

I hope these answers are helpful and sufficient to dhO forum members in sussing out whatever is needed in order to engage. I'm here to help point to no-self, however, not to gain credibility. The reason I say this again is that I feel it would be a distraction. That's because the pointers speak for themselves, and the surety of the individual's own answers stand as judge and jury. The case then closes itself.

Anyone who'd like to give this an honest try, please just let me know.

thassa

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 21:28:21 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Hmmm.... you're obviously delving into something to have me prove something to you, looking for credibility.

No credibility should be placed here. None.
But to answer:

I'm trying to suss out where you are according to what we talk a lot about here at the DhO. What does "no credibility should be placed here" mean or insinuate?

I've noticed several things. And keep in mind that this realization(s) happened May 26, so it's a month old and so my experiences of "before" and "after" are not clear cut. But in that month, yes, anxiety has arisen, but not *in* anything. It's arisen in reality. All of life's experiences, I expect, will continue to arise in reality. Otherwise, wouldn't it be just a self, denying?

So, what is anxious? What has a stake in "being" anxious? What has a stake in feeling and continuing to "feel" and experience all of that affect? What has a stake in continuing to "feel" any affect? The next time anxiety or any affect arise, see if you can sense that "presence" or sense of "being" or "location" of something in the world. Another further piece of the illusion puzzle to see through?

The difference is that it goes nowhere. It *is* nowhere specific. It passes... through... or by.. I'm not sure. The experience is there, experienced. But "before" it would have been experienced from a point of view. Now, there is no specific point of view. But there is also no ability or even desire to deny any experience when it arises.

Yes, the same thing happens at what we call 4th path here. But since you are fresh off of what is presumed to be the same or similar thing (one month) then we might assume you are in a honeymoon period where life is all fine and dandy. Has your life flowed along like a sweet song since May? Perhaps it may need to be tested under conditions that may not be so supportive of the freedom you speak of.

At this moment in time, is there a sense of "wellbeing" in the ongoing experience of the mind/body organism that is Thassa?

* I should have added that the experiences are not continuous. They move, change... and fairly quickly.

For many DhO posters here, the freedom from the push and pull of desire (affect) continuously, forever, regardless of having seen through the illusion of self or not, is the main goal. By your own admission, you haven't gotten there, nor have you previously considered it an option or possibility, nor do you seem attracted to it. What has a stake in reacting negatively towards such a possibility?

However, I would say that if your approach is effective in what you say it helps do, then I'd advise any pre-path yogis interested in laying down the weight of the illusion of self to use this direct and quick approach to lay down that weight so that it may help in furthering the goal of an actual freedom from malice and sorrow, craving and aversion of all kinds (if that's your goal).

Thanks for sticking around Thassa. It's been insightful.

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 21:03:55 GMT

Hmmm.... you're obviously delving into something to have me prove something to you, looking for credibility.

No credibility should be placed here. None.

But to answer:

I've noticed several things. And keep in mind that this realization(s) happened May 26, so it's a month old and so my experiences of "before" and "after" are not clear cut. But in that month, yes, anxiety has arisen, but not *in* anything. It's arisen in reality. All of life's experiences, I expect, will continue to arise in reality. Otherwise, wouldn't it be just a self, denying?

The difference is that it goes nowhere. It *is* nowhere specific. It passes... through... or by.. I'm not sure. The experience is there, experienced. But "before" it would have been experienced from a point of view. Now, there is no specific point of view. But there is also no ability or even desire to deny any experience when it arises.

* I should have added that the experiences are not continuous. They move, change... and fairly quickly.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 20:49:36 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

*blink*

(laugh)

There's nothing. I hadn't been asked that before either. Hadn't considered it.

Do you EVER feel any affective feeling whatsoever whether it be neutral, pleasant or unpleasant to any degree? Subtle or gross? You said there is fear yet no self feeling fear. Does that mean you on occasion have experienced some affect or another? Do you experience "desire" to any degree, subtle or gross? Do you experience moments of no affect and then on occasion an affective feeling of any degree and kind may arise depending on conditions? Or are you forever 24/7 free of all affect?

:-)

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 20:43:40 GMT

*blink*

(laugh)

There's nothing. I hadn't been asked that before either. Hadn't considered it.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 20:36:08 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Hey Nick,

Yes, I do know that I'm preaching to the choir. And to be honest, it was quite intimidating, initially, to consider coming into this forum as you all have extensive knowledge of states and traditions. Would I be able to answer your questions? But truth is truth. It can't choose whether someone is educated in any particular field, or educated at all. And so after finding truth, I also find that I'm here.

To answer your question:

There is the presence of reality. Here, there's typing, the presence of typing, the reality of the hands, keyboard... marks appear on the screen. What's experienced is a dropping sensation, a grounding with no location.... an emptiness.

And... interestingly, "dropping away" seems to be the opposite of what happens when attention isn't focused on that.

As for an experience of time? There isn't a single experience except for, as you can imagine, an awareness of an ongoing present moment. I hadn't thought of it until you asked, so thank you, but I had briefly noticed recently that there's a little bit of disorientation with regard to tracking time. It's not of any concern lately, I guess.

Does that answer?

Also, I'm willing to work with whomever would like to, either here, via email, or on the board. Elena and Viv are also available on the board, and I believe Elena has already invited members to her blog.

Hi Thassa,

Thanks for the reply. Do you feel any affective feeling whatsoever in the current moment whether it be neutral, pleasant or unpleasant to any degree? Subtle or gross?

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 20:20:19 GMT

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 20:00:14 GMT

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Thassa Amzwar:

I would suggest that this be explored and determined... verified, in your own experience rather than in an attempt to define my own. Whether or not my experience is validated is not ultimately helpful, not as helpful as your own experience when honestly and clearly looking at a single question,

Do you exist?

i can't say that i do. there is volition, moving of the arm, typing, thoughts. i know there's no separate entity , a 'self', that 'i' am. yet there's still a tendency to think of it as 'me' thinking and 'me' moving around. when that happens, if i look, i see that it wasn't 'me' thinking, but the tendency is there. and there is still a gripping need to seek, which intuitively feels like 'i' am gripped or that 'i' am being gripped, though if i look, it's just more sensations.

Yes. Thank you.

What often happens is that the I is subtly, inherently, inferred when looking for the self. It's literally tripped over when doing the looking, then the dismantling doesn't reach back far enough to that very first inherent assumption.

That, and also....the "sense of I" is ridiculously persistent. It will often continue through this process of looking happening right now, though it, too, is just a thought. The thought is real, but the content is not.

What is it that sees that "it wasn't 'me' thinking"?

Right there. That assumption of an "I" is where I suggest more looking would be helpful.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 19:44:46 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Hi Nick,

The practice is very simple, but is almost always glossed over or dismissed as too simplistic. It is done by looking at this statement, and in checking with reality to see whether it is true, whether it can be verified in reality.

There is no you.

Look at reality, what's really there, and then look for the self.

There is no you. There has never been a you.

Hehe, you are kind of preaching to the choir here at the DhO. Yes, there is no "you". I see no self. Just sensations and cause and effect. In fact right now (temporarily) I don't even sense a sense of "being" anything. Only objects coming in contact with the senses.

Here's one for you, do you "feel" a presence? Do you "feel" like there is some sort of felt sense of location (not a self) but maybe a sense of "being" or inner world or "something" other than "self" in your ongoing experience? How do you experience "time"?

It is quite subtle but since you have already dropped the "self" referencing, I think you will be able to sense it. It arises along with any affective feeling. In fact they appear to be the same thing, affect = sense of presence/being/inner world/flow of becoming etc . Affective feelings can be pleasant, unpleasant or very neutral. Does it feel like the flesh and blood body right there reading this and not seeing any self anywhere has a felt sense of "presence"?

When you get a sense for it, watch it till it drops away. What happens?

Would you set up a thread where you help any members here realize your direct pointing? It'd be good to see you in action here with a willing DhO member and then see results here rather than pointing us to the ruthless truth forum. It would be more convincing to see if it works with a pre-1st path (stream entry) yogi. Any member up for some coaching by Thassa into this realization?

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 19:41:39 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

I was referring to Ciaran's state - not sure if that's the same as yours. i should not have used my own words. excerpt:

Ciaran:

This is very interesting, and points to a truth about hatred which I've never really seen before. It's not a matter of personal dislike - there is no personal anything, there is no you. But it rises nonetheless, unbidden and unbound from the recesses of what we mistakenly think of as our minds.

It seems to be nothing more than the part of you that's real reacting violently against the part of anything that's fake.

Reality burns on contact with fiction.

this is not a truth, as it is possible to eliminate hatred forever; hatred arises due to ignorance, just like the mistaken 'self' did.

Thassa Amzwar:

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 19:13:41 GMT

C C C,

This:

"I find it really disappointing to see how easily some members of Dho are being led around."

There is no leading around. It's a matter of the answers to a question being validated in your own experience.

That is why there is no point in validating the messenger. Because then it would be looking for credibility of a belief.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 19:00:28 GMT

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:55:12 GMT

Thank you, BCDEFG. I believe I see the difference already in part of your explanation, here.

'qualifications like "suffering arises but it doesn't stick - bad moods arise but i can choose to drop them whenever i want" etc.'

Except that what I was saying was that there is no me, no I, no Self to choose or drop, or want.

And I understand how it would be helpful to fit this experience into a framework those on this board are familiar with, but I hesitate to go down that road because it would detract from the core of what was asked be presented.

I would suggest that this be explored and determined... verified, in your own experience rather than in an attempt to define my own. Whether or not my experience is validated is not ultimately helpful, not as helpful as your own experience when honestly and clearly looking at a single question,

Do you exist?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:34:32 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Hey Bruno,

In reading that description of PCE, I wondered why no one had asked whether that was something experienced already. There seems to be an assumption made here.

i did ask if Elena's experience was always like that (her momentary no-self experience).

Beo: "how is your freed state now different from that momentary experience of no self at all?"

Elena: "It's absolutely different."

i was taking the assumption that the no-self experience was a PCE, as it sounded like one, but i wasn't sure so i tried to get her to explain it further. but anyway; further, you said:

"There is fear. No one fearing. No suffering the fear."

since in a PCE there is absolutely no fear, it is clear your permanent, ongoing experience is not that of a PCE.

Thassa Amzwar:

But discussing that is irrelevant. What I'm here for is not to defend RT or Ciaran, or even myself. Liberation is not about the messenger because it's ultimately not dependent upon that messenger. You are here for freedom. If this is a discussion of different methods to achieve something not yet found, I'm pointing one out and ask that it simply be explored. Test it. There's no harm in testing out the method rather than debating the merits of the messenger, is there? What if it's actually this simple? What if there is just one question to focus on:

When looking, is there a you?

the issue (which is why it is relevant to discuss the PCE) is what 'freedom' is. there are different states one can reach. one state is very nice, it's clear there is no separate entity called the 'i', yet 'being' persists in the form of affective feelings like fear. some people are fine staying in that state. there is another state which is even nicer, there is no 'being' at all, and thus, no affective feelings at all, and life is perpetually perfect without any qualifications like "suffering arises but it doesn't stick - bad moods arise but i can choose to drop them whenever i want" etc.

see nick's explanation on the difference. i think the 4th path he mentions there is your current experience - can you verify that? then can you go on to read about the path of actual freedom, and get back to us on the 'there is fear. no one fearing'?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:28:57 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Hey Bruno,

In reading that description of PCE, I wondered why no one had asked whether that was something experienced already. There seems to be an assumption made here.

But discussing that is irrelevant. What I'm here for is not to defend RT or Ciaran, or even myself. Liberation is not about the messenger because it's ultimately not dependent upon that messenger. You are here for freedom. If this is a discussion of different methods to achieve something not yet found, I'm pointing one out and ask that it simply be explored. Test it. There's no harm in testing out the method rather than debating the merits of the messenger, is there? What if it's actually this simple? What if there is just one question to focus on:

When looking, is there a you?

What is the method? Please post it here, clear and succinct so that it can be put into action and tested by DhO members. THis place is all about practice, so, Thassa, please lay it out for those interested, in this thread!

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:16:10 GMT

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:06:35 GMT

There is something to what they are doing. It is helping them in what ever way they see fit. Maybe it could help people here at the DhO get out of the self "I" "me" "mine" identifying trap.

But also be aware of the STD's (Spiritually Transmitted Diseases). Especially, the red ones. ;-)

1. Fast-Food Spirituality: Mix spirituality with a culture that celebrates speed, multitasking, and instant gratification and the result is likely to be fast-food spirituality. Fast-food spirituality is a product of the common and understandable fantasy that relief from the suffering of our human condition can be quick and easy. One thing is clear, however: spiritual transformation cannot be had in a quick fix.

2. Faux Spirituality: Faux spirituality is the tendency to talk, dress, and act as we imagine a spiritual person would. It is a kind of imitation spirituality that mimics spiritual realization in the way that leopard-skin fabric imitates the genuine skin of a leopard.

3. Confused Motivations: Although our desire to grow is genuine and pure, it often gets mixed with lesser motivations, including the wish to be loved, the desire to belong, the need to fill our internal emptiness, the belief that the spiritual path will remove our suffering, and spiritual ambition—the wish to be special, to be better than, to be “the one.”

4. Identifying with Spiritual Experiences: In this disease, the ego identifies with our spiritual experience and takes it as its own, and we begin to believe that we are embodying insights that have arisen within us at certain times. In most cases, it does not last indefinitely, although it tends to endure for longer periods of time in those who believe themselves to be enlightened and/or who function as spiritual teachers.

5. The Spiritualized Ego: This disease occurs when the very structure of the egoic personality becomes deeply embedded with spiritual concepts and ideas. The result is an egoic structure that is “bullet-proof.” When the ego becomes spiritualized, we are invulnerable to help, new input, or constructive feedback. We become impenetrable human beings and are stunted in our spiritual growth, all in the name of spirituality.

6. Mass Production of Spiritual Teachers: There are a number of current trendy spiritual traditions that produce people who believe themselves to be at a level of spiritual enlightenment, or mastery, that is far beyond their actual level. This disease functions like a spiritual conveyor belt: put on this glow, get that insight, and–bam! –you’re enlightened and ready to enlighten others in similar fashion. The problem is not that such teachers instruct but that they represent themselves as having achieved spiritual mastery.

7. Spiritual Pride: Spiritual pride arises when the practitioner, through years of labored effort, has actually attained a certain level of wisdom and uses that attainment to justify shutting down to further experience. A feeling of “spiritual superiority” is another symptom of this spiritually transmitted disease. It manifests as a subtle feeling that “I am better, more wise, and above others because I am spiritual.”

8. Group Mind: Also described as groupthink, cultic mentality, or ashram disease, group mind is an insidious virus that contains many elements of traditional codependence. A spiritual group makes subtle and unconscious agreements regarding the correct ways to think, talk, dress, and act. Individuals and groups infected with “group mind” reject individuals, attitudes, and circumstances that do not conform to the often unwritten rules of the group.

9. The Chosen-People Complex: Unfortunately, the chosen people complex is not limited to Jews. It is the belief that “Our group is more spiritually evolved, powerful, enlightened and, simply put, better than any other group.” There is an important distinction between the recognition that one has found the right path, teacher, or community for themselves, and having found The One.

10. The Deadly Virus: “I Have Arrived” This disease is so potent that it has the capacity to be terminal and deadly to our spiritual evolution. This is the belief that “I have arrived” at the final goal of the spiritual path. Our spiritual progress ends at the point where this belief becomes crystallized in our psyche, for the moment we begin to believe that we have reached the end of the path, further growth ceases.

Taken from : http://integrallife.com/member/mariana-caplan/blog/10-spiritually-transmitted-diseases

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Eran G — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 18:04:04 GMT

C C C:

I have no problems with those words, none at all. It's the tone. He's pissed. Doesn't even answer the guy's question. His attitude is extremely willful and unsettled, agitated almost. Everyone MUST get enlightened. They MUST. REALLY. Phew - exhausting.

This is very similar to how I felt at the end of my last retreat. It was the most liberated I've ever felt and I wanted to share that with everyone and for everyone to feel the same. I could not see how anybody would not be making the same effort to find this liberation as I have. I was rehearsing big inspiring dharma talks in my head. It was awesome! Me being me, though, that energy slowly tapered off over the following month but during that month I had some very intense discussions with dharma friends where I felt like I plugged in to a hose of faith in the Dharma. I can definitely see how someone who experienced a genuine spiritual opening would react in that way.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Yadid dee — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:26:03 GMT

C C C:

CCC,
sorry man, but you're stuck in your own projections on this one

no one is falling for anything. this is just a discussion.
who is 'being led around'? 'have no base no foundation of your own?' 'all wonder and awe'? eeeeep! projection alert.

In regards to Ciaran..:
"I clearly am not beyond negativity - indeed, I'm far more negative now than I ever have been." - Ciaran's blog.

Different goals.. Most people on this forum are intent on never being negative ever again, whether there's a self there to be negative, or just negativity experiencing itself.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

C C C — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:28:36 GMT

I find it really disappointing to see how easily some members of Dho are being led around. It's like you have no base, no foundation of your own. Anyone with a degree of confidence can come on here and suddenly you're all wonder and awe? Because that's all it is - confidence.

Will Ciaran be the new Richard now? Will Direct Pointing be the new AF?

Here's how Ciaran speaks when his fragile ego is challenged. Someone tweaked him and he got very offended.

7 January 2011 11:49
Ciaran said...

Can you please suck my cock?
8 January 2011 04:54
Ciaran said...

And if you want to get some explanation on something I've written, ask me to explain it in a way that I might want to answer, and that doesn't make you just look like an arrogant cunt? ....

Is that sufficiently CHILDISHLY SIMPLE for you, or would you like me to make a little card with glue, glitter and pasta shapes, and send it to you, you unbelievable fucking retard?
========================
I have no problems with those words, none at all. It's the tone. He's pissed. Doesn't even answer the guy's question. His attitude is extremely willful and unsettled, agitated almost. Everyone MUST get enlightened. They MUST. REALLY. Phew - exhausting.

Beo and Florian, I really expected you would have known how to spot a fake. Every word he writes screams "PLEASE VALIDATE ME!" "Please understand that I am clever, that I can philosophize and that I can understand the human condition". Because he can, he's clever, but he hasn't gone far on the path. ["Red is for the LIBERATORS. If you have liberated someone, you get to have a red name, and that means everyone knows that when you talk, they should listen"] - oh dear! They do not have hundreds of people enlightened in record time - they have none. I can't believe people are falling for this.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:18:27 GMT

Hi, Florian,

so I am absolutely lost in this octopus forum and all the abbreviations like MCTB and AF and whatever else. It's like we speak different language. Can you point me where are those words transcribed? Thanks!

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:12:02 GMT

Ondal:

[/quote]

this. yes.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Bruno Loff — Sat, 02 Jul 2011 06:43:34 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Yadid dee:

Therefore, if you decide that liberation includes suffering but no 'I' suffering, thats what you'll get, since you will not go further, i suppose.

I have not decided this, however. What is suffering except to a self?

There is fear. No one fearing. No suffering the fear.
There is anger. No one angry. No suffering the anger.

And I'm not sure what's meant by further... to the goal of not experiencing suffering, or is there something else?

It's called "actual freedom." To make an analogy, one could say that enlightenment as you experienced has successfully eliminated the illusion of a thinker, and actual freedom as we define it eliminates the illusion of a feeler, it eliminates the feeling of "being". Now, it turns out, that the feeler and the feelings are one and the same thing, and hence affective feeling never arise again.

This might seem odd to many, usually due to attachment to emotional states, and due to not having experienced a taste of what it is like to experience without the overlaid affective/energetic/imaginary layer.

Such an unfiltered experience is here called a Pure Consciousness Experience (PCE), and here is a short phenomenological description of such an experience (from this page):

AF correspondent:

There is an increase in sensory clarity, especially visual acuity. Along with this increase in clarity there is a ‘purity’ in everything one perceives. The words ‘immaculate’, ‘perfect’, ‘pure’ capture it quite well; everything is wonderful. Strangely, though, the word ‘beautiful’ does not apply. There is no (felt) affect whatsoever. The purity of perception (and the marvellousness of what is perceived) goes beyond affect, leaving only pure, calm wonder. It’s sensory delight without any emotional resonance at all.

The sensory delight I’m talking about is not the usual kind of sensuousness/ sensuality that one enjoys in an ordinary state. Rather than being ‘pleasurable’, it is appreciation of the perfection that seems to be inherent in what one is perceiving, which leads to enjoyment of a very different kind. This is quite extraordinary. There is a sensation of softness in the air, which has a pellucid, jelly-like quality (metaphorically speaking).

I’m reminded of something you once wrote about the eyes ‘lightly caressing’, as if one is seeing from the front of the eyeball. I also remember you saying ‘nothing dirty can get in’, and that’s exactly the way it is. Objects that would seem drab, dirty, sullied, soiled in ‘reality’ are immaculate in themselves; any ‘dirtiness’ is overlaid by ‘me’.

It is quite frequent that people have such experiences of sensory clarity and perfection once one reaches MCTB 4th path (which is what we call your attainment over here). The point of actual freedom is to live permanently that way. When such a condition is made permanent (and we know of various individuals who have made it so, some of which post here on the forum), no sadness, fear, anger, or love arise ever. One always "feels perfect," which turns out to be a completely non-affective (and very very delightful) experience.

You could try to induce a PCE and see for yourself, I'm guessing Nick could probably point you in the right direction (of how to have such an experience from the vantage point of 4th path).

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:15:12 GMT

Yadid dee:

Therefore, if you decide that liberation includes suffering but no 'I' suffering, thats what you'll get, since you will not go further, i suppose.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Nikolai . — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:05:56 GMT

Yadid dee:

Hey Viv,

So - Suffering, but no one there to experience it, right?
Shame, but no one feels it.
Fear, but no one feels it.

But actions result (with no doer), from these feelings, yeah?
An action resulting from fear.
An action resulting from anger.
An action resulting from shame.

But no one there acting?

Yeh, MCTB 4th path is this. But ultimately unsatisfactory IMO. To be "friends" with it so to speak, is just another mindset. My mindset is set on extinguishing the whole human condition of malice, sorrow, craving, aversion, becoming, becoming, becoming etc.

If it solved your problem, kudos to ya! Ya got what you (stopped) searching for. I do believe there are many here who have ideals which may be a little different and take it one step further and if you wish to argue to your hearts content about AF and the result of no more affect, it's been done to death before an various threads and various forums. I think one can overlook the illusion of "being" (all affective feelings) even when "self" or personal identity has been seen through. Just my 2 cents.

:-)

Nick

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Viv Westbrook — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:05:46 GMT

Yadid dee:

I get what you're saying, Yadid.

But, nah. No self. No cause. No effect.

See... there is no doer. Of anything. So.... nothing can cause anything else.

Nothing results from anything else... because there is nothing to cause the effect.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:58:50 GMT

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Thassa Amzwar:

It's worth taking a look at the method, at focusing on the message rather than the messenger. Ciaran, or any one of us on the board, cannot actually liberate anyone at all.

to be clear, there are 2 goals:

enlightened: see through the self, but the ego is still there, albeit seen as fake or whatever. emotions arise. one can defend them as 'necessary'. there is still suffering but one has to 'live through it' and 'accept it'.

actually free: no self at all. no emotions remain. there is no suffering anywhere.

i (personally) don't doubt Ciaran is the former. by his own words, he is not the latter.

What I've experienced in the month since this realization is the absence of suffering. Of course, it's quite possible that this is too new to really be tested, but the reduction in behaviors brought on by previous suffering is probably 100%, though friends and family would be better able to answer that. My family has noticed a marked change, though it's not drastic. There is just an evenness, a base of peace that's returned to no matter the circumstance, even those which would have triggered a prolonged emotional response.

If you were to ask whether I've appeared to become angry or sad, I'd say that I may have, but it's gone in a flash and does not stick to anything. There isn't a claim to them, so though they are experienced, it is by no one. It's just the experience.

But yes, I do understand what you're speaking of with regard to the former. I'd tried the "live through" and "accept" route with no success at all.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Yadid dee — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:52:15 GMT

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Viv Westbrook — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:46:19 GMT

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Thassa Amzwar:

It's worth taking a look at the method, at focusing on the message rather than the messenger. Ciaran, or any one of us on the board, cannot actually liberate anyone at all.

Watcha, BCDEFG

I like the definitions you have of enlightenment and actually free.

Because, when you say 'no self at all' that's all there is. No self. At all.

But.... no emotions remain? Really?

So, like 'no emotions = no suffering.'?

I call that a lobotomy, tbh. That'll get you no emotions and no suffering.

IMO, "Actually Free" means all emotions. Everything! Life in all its glory. Nothing excluded or denied.... nothing.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:31:48 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

It's worth taking a look at the method, at focusing on the message rather than the messenger. Ciaran, or any one of us on the board, cannot actually liberate anyone at all.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:29:56 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Original Pavlina Discussion, for those interested: http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/spirituality-consciousness-awareness/57129-conversation-ondal.html

Ondal's post are fascinating.. i'm wondering if he has AF. he reports no ego at all, at least in the posts i've read so far. will have to keep reading.

Ondal:

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Yadid dee — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:24:50 GMT

Thassa Amzwar:

Hi Yadid dee,

Something I've noticed since beginning to look at the forums and message boards over the short time I've seen this, is that there is often a pull to become distracted by a debate as to whether or not the teacher is liberated. And initially, I was very reluctant to really examine the pointers presented, simply because of the language and tone on that board. Finally, I had to ask myself whether I had the ability to determine whose finger should point to the moon, so to speak. When I dropped my biases and just took an honest look at the message for myself, I found the gate open.

It's worth taking a look at the method, at focusing on the message rather than the messenger. Ciaran, or any one of us on the board, cannot actually liberate anyone at all.

Hi Thassa,
I don't doubt these methods are useful,
nor do I disagree that focusing on the messenger can be unhelpful sometimes. If you got benefit from this, great.
But different methods lead to different results (although it is tempting to assume 'the truth is one and all roads lead to it'), and it also seems that different biases and mind sets, and goals, influence one's practice a lot.

Therefore, if you decide that liberation includes suffering but no 'I' suffering, thats what you'll get, since you will not go further, i suppose.

But I guess that forum isn't unique in that sense (thinking there's no getting rid of the whole package of suffering, not just "suffering, no one there"), because it happend at the DhO as well.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:21:35 GMT

Yadid dee:

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Yadid dee — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 21:00:29 GMT

Interesting website.. it really is.

Here's a part of Ciaran's post which I found interesting:
"CIARAN: hmm
i see what you mean
i really do
here's my take
people cannot not have emotions
they can detach themselves from them
or build a fortress to hide inside"

So basically that dude hasn't attained an actual freedom, utter end of suffering, etc.

Also there's something about the direct approach on that forum which kinda rubs me the wrong way - the "just look there's no self! hey! great, now you're liberated" which implies low standards.. and although I can see how that kind of investigation is useful, it also seems a bit immature to me.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Thassa Amzwar — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 20:20:28 GMT

An Eternal Now:

They have an intuition but they do not know exactly the differences, the depths of insight. They don't have a clear map. They still lack experience imo.

Hi, Thassa here.

An Eternal Now has pointed out a basic truth right there that is my experience. I have no background in any models or traditions and came at this very raw after only one year of seeking which consisted of incessant reading, listening to podcasts, watching youtube videos of popular nondual teachers, and surfing the web. And I asked no questions of anyone at all during that entire period.

This situation was, I feel, of great benefit because there wasn't a lot to "undo" when it came to seeing the truth. After spending every bit of my free time in that intense search, I finally, in exasperation, googled "what does enlightenment feel like" and "how many people are enlightened". That lead to the Steve Pavlina discussion board on the subject where I came across a post amid the fray that was so clear and clean that I could not stop reading it. It seemed to cut to the core, and was worded very simply,

There is no you.
There are thoughts, but no thinker.
There is seeing, but no seer.
There is believing, but no believer.
There is no you. Never has been.

I'd later learn that this was what Ciaran calls The Gate. In my experience, it was. I read everything Ondal said on that board and basically skimmed over the rest of the responses because I felt they might cloud whatever it was from Ondal that seemed so clear. His posts led me to Brutal Beginnings, a RT ebook, and finally to the RT forum. Though I never posted until after the realization of no me, I poured through the posts there and on another site, and within a couple of days of working with them, knew I was done. There was no me and this was very clear.

I finally posted on RT and have been there since, assisting the efforts to help others. What became clear to me was that once I stopped trying to figure things out using intellect, I noticed that the gate was wide open. I've integrated this opinion in how I communicate this to others on the RT forum because I was so very struck by the simplicity.

I'm open to questions, but as I've said, would not be able to discuss it in terms of the models. However, anything you can extrapolate from this discussion is why I'm here. Ask, and I'll answer honestly.

Thassa

Original Pavlina Discussion, for those interested: http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/spirituality-consciousness-awareness/57129-conversation-ondal.html

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:52:30 GMT

Elena Nezh:

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Elena Nezh:

no, that was just a start Unison freed me, not Ilona.

how is your freed state now different from that momentary experience of no self at all?

It's absolutely different.

can you describe it in phenomenological words? labeling it 'kensho' doesn't help me understand what it was like =P.

were your senses different in that experience vs. now? your vision crisper, hearing higher fidelity, etc?

what was the sense of self like in that experience vs. now?

were there any emotions arising in the state, perhaps about the state, while you were in it? what about now?

what about suffering in that experience vs. now? you said you "don't really see anything as suffering now" - what about in that experience?

you say things are ordinary now - were things not ordinary in the experience, while you were living it? (Looking back it might seem out of the ordinary, but what about while you were experiencing it?)

Elena Nezh:

And that avatar of yours rocks!

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:37:22 GMT

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Elena Nezh:

no, that was just a start Unison freed me, not Ilona.

how is your freed state now different from that momentary experience of no self at all?

It's absolutely different.

That experience was a kensho. I had it before several times.
Now - ORDINARY. Never being so ordinary in my entire adult life.

It is difficult to explain in 3 words what I mean by ordinary, I will try to write a post about it tonight here:

Complete Humanity

Thanks for your questions.

And that avatar of yours rocks!

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:34:25 GMT

I am not forum gal, guys, this structure is sooo confusing - I have no idea where to post, reply. It's just like an octopus If anyone ready to look, just email me. Much simpler and more effective for both parties.

As I said, I am moving to a new blog, and here it is:

Complete Humanity

Personally tailored to suit my feminine side. Cool, ya?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:30:06 GMT

Elena Nezh:

no, that was just a start Unison freed me, not Ilona.

how is your freed state now different from that momentary experience of no self at all?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:30:02 GMT

there is another thread there, I forgot the name, if I find, I will post

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:27:36 GMT

no, that was just a start Unison freed me, not Ilona.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:21:24 GMT

Hi, Florian.

This is great offer, but unfortunately I can't take it now. I am working privately with 3 people at this time. Booked But my friends, Ilona and Thassa (I think you spoke to her before, she pointed me here) hopefully will do that.

Hugs,
Elena

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:13:44 GMT

Elena, from ruthless forum i found you said:

Elena:
Ilona, I tried and tried, and failed, and failed, and got so tired, I forgot what I was doing, just so much intensity, but trying to remember at the moment what the intensity about, and there was blank. Then the next moment I would remember Oh I am trying to LOOK and see without me seeing. Then would be a lot of intensity again, and some kind of amnesia again.

Elena: So I gave up and went to watch a movie 13 floor with my son. He asked me to make some food for him, I went to the kitchen, started to cut the bread and the sausage, and for a moment there was no me - WAS CUTTING HAPPENING, then ARRANGING SAUSAGE ON THE BREAD HAPPENING, then I appeared, and all lost it's some kind of silent beauty.

Elena
I think I am really up to something here! I am not sure what and to what degree, but I touched something I never touched before. I did have several times in my life this self dissolution happening when I was just a Presence, Awareness - wh...atever it is. And I think my mistake was that at this kind of mystical states moments I would identify with this bigger me - Presence, Awareness, Consciousness. But today was nothing to identify with, it was just cutting happening. everything else was there - I was NOT. wow. But said all that it does not last. Does it? Or I need to train it? what should i do now? And is it it or something else again? I appreciate much you help!See More

that momentary experience you had - is that your ongoing perpetual experience now, or is it different? what is different about it?

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:05:15 GMT

I will read, yes. What is A&P?

And it happened 8 month ago. BUT I am not 20y.o out of nowhere. I went through several bangha's stages, it's different. The most difference it's how it affected my day to day life.

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Elena Joy — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 18:58:21 GMT

Yes, there is a reason I have no idea how to use forum's various threads. It's easy for me to find where I wrote and then go from there And not bold is harder for me to read, I was curious why people do not bold theirs No more importance reason here at all, just convenience. I wish we all have different colors too

RE: Hardcore Direct Pointing

Pål S. — Fri, 01 Jul 2011 17:32:41 GMT

Then we agree about the usefulness of contemplation (by whatever name). My bad if I misunderstood your intent.

Your experience I can relate to. This is not A&P but stream-entry. It's not a given that you will experience fruitions after SE, especially if you don't practice vipassana on a regular basis. It took me maybe 3-4 months after the realization before I noticed a fruition. It happens almost exclusively before falling asleep, when the mind is 'set free'. I'm sure you could get one if you asked someone here for instructions (I never get them purposely so I can't explain). Anyway good to hear you're out of the mud