I can't think of a great title for this one, but my previous question just sort of introduced a much broader but personally related question, and that is: has anyone else here had the really strong impulse to walk the classic "forsake everything but the spiritual life" path? I guess I ask this question because for the past year or so it's felt like this looming decision that I don't know how to make and that I don't know the consequences of at all. I do have this suspicion that my question's not unusual at all, but could someone who's already walked this road for quite a bit longer than I have maybe address if what I'm going through's just a sort of mental complex I've erected out of nothing which'll go away by itself, or if perhaps I really should ponder over joining a Zen monastery in the coming years.

In case this previous paragraph was a little too vague, maybe I can describe the sensation and the thoughts that arise from it a bit. More than anything else for me it's this very strong doubt that anything I can do in sort of "conventional" society will give me any satisfaction, or more than that, that I even belong there. In the face of what I believe, all of the stuff I do in university, everything I learn, seems more and more like a really interesting set of toys or cool diversion rather than something real and solid and really worth striving for; which is really a shame, since I do love what my field is in university. It probably didn't help that a former German teacher of mine who I was close to also had the same thoughts, saying that ultimately the life of intellectual pursuits was about as fruitful as whacking off all day. It's true on the other hand that I don't walk around every day piously absorbed or something - far from that, I love videogames and film and sex too damn much, for example. So I'm not ready to let go of quite a few trappings of the world yet, and maybe I shouldn't anyway, but there is this sense that seems to grow over time that none of it's satisfying and none of it'll ever be satisfying. For example, I just cannot see myself ever going through my masters and Ph.d programs in university so that I can settle down at some job so that I can find some woman so that we can buy some boring house somewhere so that we can have kids that I don't really want so that I can eventually look back over my life when I'm 70 and go, "well all those "so-thats" were basically a complete waste of an opportunity to live the life I wanted." But, having said that, it's equally terrifying to basically say fuck it to your family and friends and society in general and completely go off to do your own thing, even if that's what you have the feeling you want to do.

So, I don't expect a complete this-is-what-you-should-do answer, but instead I'm only asking: is this pretty common, or am I nuts?

Nuts.

Realise that the sole motive of any behaviour (from "whacking off all day", to writing a PhD to sitting in a cave in the mountains meditating), is to feel better than you do now. It all comes from the same source - Desire.

Why not combine your interests for video games, sex and film somehow? Maybe produce a porn film or a video game about sex. Maybe spend some time in a foreign country enjoying sex with new women? Maybe study video game production? Maybe study programming for video games? Maybe go to acting classes or write a script for a short film? These things will make you, and those who have to be around you, happy. And that is afterall, what you want.

When you finally exhaust your desires for sex, video games and film, see what comes up next. Maybe a desire for sailing, skiing, creating a business, volunteering, etc, will bubble up. Keep following these desires and satisfying them. Eventually you will get to a desire to be free of desire. That's the time to start meditating, not before.... in my opinion.

Well, thank you for your perspective, but I don't think I agree. It's true that everything springs from desire, but some ways to channel desire are better or more skillful means than others. It's difficult to achieve a true balance, a true middle-way between the extremes that usually appear in any kind of decision, large or small; to be sure you have to satiate some desires, like sex, but sex is also a good example of a desire that can't really ever just be satiated and go away on its own. I've been finding that it's true in a microcosmic way in my sitting practice as well, with the desire for sleep for example. On one hand sometimes you're just damn tired for whatever reason and you just have to let yourself go to sleep - that can even energize your desire to meditate when you wake up from your nap. On the other hand, I find my mind seems to throw every conceivable distraction at me in an attempt to shy away from attaining true concentration, and so if I just easily give in to any one of those without any fight, including sleep, well I'm not gonna get anywhere at all. So the tricky part as concerns my ambitions is of the same nature: how to balance the needs of others in my life, such as my parents and the fact that they deserve to see their child at least once in a while, with my own ambition to accomplish so much.

But, thank you for your opinion.

it's not your mind that is throwing distractions at you, your mind is you, and so it is you who are throwing yourself around.

realise this and gain intimacy with/mastery over what you feel to be yourself.



by making substantial insight progress (aka getting it done) on retreat, away from the pressures and disturbances of your everyday life.

tarin

No worries Michael. I didn't really expect it would be a popular answer!

Hope you don't mind me explaining a little further. My ego is what's stopping me meditating right now...what stops me living in the present. I give my ego what it needs to shut it up for a while! Just like giving a crying baby a dummy to suck on to quiet him down and let him settle. Also, I find 'Providence' a very uplifting thing that is also very settling and calming - a great stepping off point for meditation. For example, I want a video game and I know it's sold out at all the stores. I decided to go looking for it anyway, trusting that what I want will be provided, and find that the local store has one left - a pre-ordered copy that was not picked up. It's mine! Not only that he's giving me a discount! Having needs met this way, synchronistically, gives me a feeling of connection and safety. I can use that to drop into a meditative state. I don't have to fight my ego in some enormous battle. It's a smooth and natural transition. Does this resonate with anyone here?

Is this something you've realized, or as you perhaps say, just your opinion? And if it's just an opinion then, as a believing behaviour, is that behaviour motivated solely by just wanting to feel better, or by something else?

What about the emergent behaviour of crowds that are not predictable from individual analysis? Is it possible that you are similarly a community of interwoven behaviours, or do you think you are some singular unitary agent, utterly beyond surprising yourself?

Do I wave my arms about on a tight-rope because I want to feel better? Did you write this post solely because you wanted to feel better?

Does a growing plant lean towards the light because it wants to feel better, or does it do so because that is what allows it to grow, and growing is what it does best?

As a theory you may find it sufficient to explain behaviour, but that doesn't mean it's necessary. And in fact, what is being explained? Feeling better may actually be a consequence of any fulfilled desire (how could it not be?), but that doesn't mean its the motivation.

So, in what way are you not (spuriously, tautologically) saying, 'The motivation of any behaviour is its fulfilment'?

What does it mean to feel better? Why does something make you feel better? Unless these questions are impenetrable or absurd and meaningless (which they are clearly not), then I suggest you have not realized the sole motivation of behaviour.

Michael I can tell you what I chose for myself.

I had a period when I was considering something similar to you --- throw everything away and just go meditate until it's done, then maybe teach meditation for a living or something of the sort.

Seeing where meditation actually seems to be leading me, in retrospect, that seems very silly. It is not easy to explain why, but I will give it a try.

A realization I had during this period was that everything was unsatisfactory. Nothing which I did seemed to bring any satisfaction; not my PhD, not my friends, not food, not sex, nothing. Then it came to the point when I realized that nothing that I could ever have would satisfy; I imagined multiple ways my life could be instead, from being a monk like you are considering, to being an all-powerful God living the ultimate stereoscopic hallucionogenic fractal metaphysical allmighty orgy. And I had the distinct sensation that none of these experiences would satisfy me.

And yet, nowadays I seem to be arriving at one of the most satisfying periods in my recent life, and, externally, hardly anything has changed since the time I had those realisations, things are mostly the same as they were during that period of my life when satisfaction was all but impossible to find.

So what happened? I am not sure. Tentatively, I explain this as having understood, to a large extent, the mechanism of desire, and thus the mechanism of satisfaction. I will now expound what I (believe to have) understood:

(Disclaimer: I am not certain about what I am about to write, I write as if I was for stylistic purposes)

What happens is the following: desire is a primitive mechanism for behavioral control. On a normal non-introspective conditioned mind, it works as follows:
(1) perception recognizes an object/activity/situation as being worthy of desire

--- this happens due to ingrained animal features; desire will typically be about something which is associated with individual and species-survival, e.g., the desire to amass or collect items, to eat, to have sex, to fulfil a social role (the protector, the wise, the powerful, the shameful/worthless/humiliated, the good, the bad, the obedient, the mother, the martyr, the adventurer, the provider, ...), to be safe from harm, to belong to the community, etc.

(2) then desire is momentarily intensified (it is usually present 100% of the time when one is awake).

Desire is an uncomfortable sensation, even desire for the things one wants is extremely discomfortable; although this is really hard to see, because desire for the things one wants is usually accompanied by somatic pleasure (thinking about sex feels good, although as any social misfit knows, just thinking about sex eventually makes one feel lonely and sad).

(3) Now here is where one is fooled: one thinks that one will only be happy by getting the object of desire, and that "getting what one wants" is synonymous with "satisfaction."

(4) then two things can happen --- one gets the object of desire, or not. If one does not get the object of desire, then there are several possible outcomes, from "letting go" or "giving up" one's desire, to forgetting about it, or deliberately not thinking about it (desire might wane and disappear with time), to depression and suicide.

If one does get the object of desire, then this is not only accompanied by somatic pleasure, but one will also feel "satisfied" in return. Desire will again decrease in intensity and/or visibility (one does not desire what one already owns), and one will usually think "I got satisfied because I got what I wanted."

---

But when one meditates, when one looks again and again at the workings of the mind, one might soon realize that one does not get satisfied by getting things. I think this is what happens on this "unsatisfactoryness" phase which you are going through --- you are realizing that "getting things" or "having things" isn't really satisfying in itself, and conclude that "things don't satisfy." Even things which brought satisfaction to you before no longer seem to "work" anymore.

This is what you are describing:


This is a very common occurrence among meditators, and I got that too --- so what is happening here?

What is happening is that, after getting better and better introspective skills, one is no longer able to ignore the permanent presence of desire. It becomes obvious that one's mind doesn't work all that well --- it is noisy, and constantly whining that it wants things, and that it is unhappy, and that it will only be happy if it has this or that. The mind is not at peace.

To make it worst, one sees for the first time that "getting what one wants" doesn't actually shut up this whining, it doesn't satisfy the way it seemed to before. Chasing one's dreams, which once seemed like the purpose of life, now feels like a stupid game which can not be won. One feels that even if one had one's "dreams," one wouldn't be satisfied. This is the so-called "knowledge of disenchantment."

--- But in truth one can actually become satisfied, if only one understand what satisfaction actually is. And it is really very simple, it is just a matter of repeatedly observing what happens when one feels satisfied, and making a different causal link. What happens when one get's what one wants is that:

(a) one feels satisfied, (b) desire decreases in intensity and/or visibility (one does not desire what one already has), and (c) one thinks "I got satisfied because I got what I wanted."

But what I have concluded for myself, and maybe you will too, is that

One gets satisfied, not because one "gets what one wanted," but actually because of the decrease in desire.

And once you see this link, suddenly all stands explained: desire and suffering are one and the same thing. Suffering is the discomfortable aspect of desire, and desire always has this quality (dukkha, unsatisfactoryness), which might or might not be correctly seen. Desire is "the passionate craving that things are not as they present themselves right now," and the discomfort of not wanting to be here is what suffering actually is. Desire comes in two flavors, the desire for something which isn't present (craving) and the desire against something that is happening (aversion). Furthermore, the mechanism of desire uses an ingenuous trick to survive: it actively distorts one's perception so that you can't clearly see the workings of the mind (ignorance).

Addiction, fear, anger, love, resentment, excitement, sadness, boredom, worry, compassion, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, are all manifestations of desire. Without desire, what is left is (reportedly) a sort of innocent wonder, a perfect pure perception, and a complete and unparalleled satisfaction and fulfilment.

This is the point: all one's life we are taught that satisfaction is defined positively (when we get what we want), when, to be correct, one should actually define it negatively - satisfaction is the absence of desire. What you are getting in your life isn't satisfying you, because satisfaction is not about having more, it's about having less.

---

Having come to terms with this in the past few months, and having started to navigate towards the extinction of desire, I can tell you that I have had results, in terms of being happy and satisfied right here right now, which surpassed my expectations in speed of attainment, quantity and quality. I've taken my happiness into my own hands. I see that sadness is just a bad habit, and boredom is just dulled attention. There's still plenty of work to be done, but I know what that work actually is --- rather than looking at it as some vaguely defined spiritual quest, I see it as a very attainable and worthwhile goal, and I'm having a good time getting there.

And finally, how has this discovery changed the way I plan my life, in particular my former inclination to give everything up and be a monk?... That desire seems so silly to me now! Life is really so much fun when you're not busy wishing it were somehow different! Why would I become a monk, and give up on all the good things of the lay life? "Being done" with meditation, for me, actually just means being completely satisfied with things the way they are, so it doesn't make sense, to me, to run away from those things into some monastery.

That is my own current perspective, I hope it helps!

Have fun!
Bruno

I really liked your reply Bruno, and I can agree with all of it. I don't know if I mentioned this in my post, but the thought of becoming a monastic isn't something I would really do lightly or without much more consideration, and in any case I want to finish university to at least a master's level before I'd consider radically re-ordering the progress of my life like that. So it's years in the future if at all. At this point in my life I find that my perspective on my life seems to change almost every day, sometimes subtly and sometimes radically, and in a weird way I'm kinda cool with that. I think it's part of the process of demolishing sort of preconceived notions about things, as I observe that ideas and concepts aren't exempt from the three characteristics. I think quite a few of my suppositions about what I should do with my life spring from a series of notions about what the path to enlightenment should look like, how quickly it should progress, etc. More and more however, I'm coming to the conclusion that there is no set path, and if it takes the majority of my life to attain my goal, well, that's pretty alright. It's kinda scary and somewhat exhilarating at the same time to come to the slow realization as well, that really nobody in the world can define your path for you; even enlightened people, whatever that even means in relation to me, can sorta tell me about what happened to them but even they will never be god, so to speak. There's a very strong temptation that's equally difficult to resist for quite some time, in that you find yourself wanting over and over again to semi-consciously "deify" people like Daniel or Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, or whatever name you want to fill in the blank with. There's the sense that since they think a particular way, as a novice student I ought to as well. But...even that turns out to be just another fabrication of the mind. It's strange but over the past few days even the desire for Enlightenment and all that entails has kind of become just...normal, in terms of the value assigned to it.

So, I don't want to make another endless post here, so I'll stop here, but, yeah, that's me right now.

Like Bruno said, you have everything you need right here, all the teachers you could want, y tu mamá también. You wont find as many in a monastery. (Like Kerouac said, the only Buddha you find at the top of the mountain, is the one you take up there.)

The Knowledge of Disenchantment is the bleeding wound in the side of the self making mechanism. Make certain a run for the hills isn't a last ditch attempt to patch it up.

Regarding the desire/satisfaction sub-thread:

This is what I've noticed...

Both desire and satisfaction are feelings. As I inquire into the feeling of satisfaction, it's clear that there can't be satisfaction without someone who is satisfied. If there is no "me", then there can be no satisfaction. Looking at it, the satisfaction is clearly narcisistic in nature. The apparent pleasantness of satisfaction is the pleasure of claiming "I" am satisfied. It is the self-sustaining nature of the feeling which makes it seem so appealing. In seeing this, I notice that "I" am my feeling of satisfaction and the feeling of satisfaction is "me." If I take away the apparent appeal of "I am"... then the feeling of satisfaction isn't enjoyable at all, in fact, it is seen for what it is - a distortion of actuality.

Looking further, I see that Satisfaction requires dissatisfaction for it's existence. Therefore by my very feeling satisfaction, I am perpetuating the loop of dissatisfaction-desire-fulfilment-satisfaction-repeat. This process sustains "me", or sustains the illusion of being.

What is then quite clear... Neither desire, nor satsifaction will lead to the end of being.

Or put in a more down-to-earth way, so long as I'm feeling desire and/or satisfaction, or the loop between the two... I am being selfish and self-centered. And so long as I am living as this self-identity, then "I" will suffer, and I will perpetuate this process of suffering for myself and others.

What is the alternative? To drop the distortion wave of the feeling itself and to attend to the actuality of this moment. In doing so, it becomes apparent that the actuality of this moment is far more delightful than the feeling of satisfaction (so much so as to make satisfaction seem absurd). Satisfaction pales in comparison to the actuality of this moment. Seen all the way through, the realization arises of the silliness of riding the wave of desire-satisfaction when one could be enjoying this moment of being alive.

Well, that's what I notice, at least.

Regarding the "forsake everything" conundrum:

Yes, I think this is quite common. I have experienced it, and have heard many reports from others who have had the same experience.

I think there is some evidence to suggest that the desire to retreat may be more common for men than for women. Biologically speaking, in the division of labor, the harder physical tasks (hunting, protection) were assigned to the man and the more social tasks (childrearing, etc.) were assigned to the woman. Also, the woman is more dependent on the group for her survival and protection (being less able to defend herself physically.) Therefore, it would make sense that a man would have more of an instinctual impulse toward solitude. And the woman would have a stronger instinctual drive to stay connected with the group.

However, all humans would still have the instinct to belong (desire for love, connection, loyalty etc.), and also the instincts to satisfy one's individual desires.


One interesting question that I'd consider is if you are seeing that "none of it'll ever be satisfying" then why go to a Zen monastery? Do you think that the Zen monastery will be satisfying? Will forsaking everything be satisfying? What is it that you think is "something real and solid and really worth striving for"? Do you think life in a Zen monastery is "something real and solid and really worth striving for"? I know many people who think that life in a Zen monastery is "about as fruitful as whacking off all day."

You may notice your attempt to find "something real and solid and really worth striving for" in the face of the realization that "none of it'll ever be satisfying." In my experience, this is the essence of what the Dukkha Nyana is all about - The knowledge of suffering - The overwhelming desire for something solid while noticing that nothing is solid. The overwhelming desire for something worth striving for while noticing that nothing will ever satisfy. It's like a dissonance, like a grinding of gears. That's why it's called the Dark Night. It's almost unbearably dissonant.

Explore that dissonance. What is it to suffer? What is it to be a human being, alive and experiencing on this planet earth amidst this curious phenomenon of impossibly wanting the impossible? Don't run from it, as that will only perpetuate it. Instead, sit in the middle of it, and let it rock your entire being... like you're going through some twisted vortex of impossibility (knowledge of re-observation) and as you relax into the peripheral torment, the center appears - equanimity.

From equanimity, it really doesn't matter what you do, though certainly you still care about others and care about life.

Those are my thoughts at least

This is one question that I've considered out of curiosity now and again: could I be experiencing the Dark Night? Certain parts of Daniel's explanation of it seemed like it really matched me, but...other things seem off, which is to say that I haven't at all experienced things like the A and P event...I would remember something like that, if it's at all as Daniel describes it.

Unfortunately, I didn't know which Daniel you were referencing. I've considered perhaps I should change my name here, but whatever.

Personally, I have been so far unsuccessful in discovering where I am on the map, and the maps have been of only limited use for me.

My point simply was that you seem to be looking for something "real and solid and worth striving for." And, yet you are also observing that nothing is satisfying. If you look at the three characteristics: impermanence (not solid), dukkha (not satisfying), and anatta (not self)... then whether you call it "the Dark Night", or you call it "really shitty to be alive as a human", you are experiencing the knowledge of dukkha. One doesn't need the insight maps to see that insight into non-solidity, will lead to the realization of non-satisfactoriness.

Whether or not you've reached the A&P, you have clearly had insight into impermanence. You describe your insight very well. And, you have clearly had insight into the non-satisfying nature of living in an impermanent world.

And, if you keep going, you will get to the insight into not-self which is to see that none of it is personal, and therefore it takes a lot of the heaviness off, and you can make decisions like this with more equanimity. And, then maybe you will be at the beginning of the map or maybe at the end. I don't know, because I'm not an expert with the maps. But, the point is to keep going with the practice, and your questions will take on new meaning.

Thank you! Well, that's all I was asking, I wish you success with your practice as well!

So, I don't expect a complete this-is-what-you-should-do answer, but instead I'm only asking: is this pretty common, or am I nuts?


Yes this is common. yes you are nuts. but do worry, we are all nuts. It's not your circumstances that your fed up with its you. whether you stay where you are or drop everything and leave, your still going to be left with the same feeling. This is what you should do..... Do something irrational like bugger of to india for 48 hours or go on a small retreat. get it out of your system. But when you do make sure you have decided that it will be permanent. you will soon see that where ever you go you are still left with you. Cheer up, life can be shity but life can be great. Deal with it.

The moment you have seen that the self does not exist in the way you think it exists ( shattering of sakya-ditthi at stream entry)..when you realize that nothing really is "mine" here , you realize fundamentally what and why you feel like a mess..Since you own nothing in your mind-body , you loose nothing and so you suffer nothing..but this realization kind of fades after stream-entry and that is why there are further paths..You don't have to renounce anything for this..a lot of doubts and suffering do not crop up after stream-entry ( probably this is what they meant by not falling into the lower realms )..good luck and metta :-)