this is a message to the practising actualists and those interested in the actualism method, who, despite having made sincere (as far as they can tell) efforts, have not experienced much, if any, success with it. this thread is for the people who just can't seem to figure it out.

if you are asking yourself, 'how am i experiencing this moment of being alive?' and you are:

1- not getting into a pce, even briefly;
2- not getting oriented toward the pce in a way that you recognise;
3- not getting the idea that you can enjoy this moment of being alive (and that such enjoyment is worth it); or
4- are not even feeling very well (and are, rather, feeling stuck feeling grim or glum day in and day out)

..perhaps you could use a little more fun in your life; deeper fun than that which petty appetites and desires can bring.. the sort the actual freedom trust homepage warns about (and quite rightly, potentially).. the sort that you can cultivate and maintain. i am here talking about bliss - the 'good' feelings - the sort you learn how to access by learning how to enter jhana.

learning how to enter, and dwell in, jhana sharpens your perceptual abilities. the skill-set you develop from this endeavour will be applicable to your actualist pursuits.

further, if you have had tastes of bliss, but do not know how to experience it on command, chances are you want it and want to (whether you know it or not/admit it or not). the appetite for bliss is a deeply-ingrained desire fueled by instinctual passions which, so long as they are extant, are running the show (whether you know it or not/admit it or not).

never mind that chasing bliss, or sitting around in it, are, in and of themselves, dead-ends (they do not lead conclusively to freedom from malice and sorrow), and never mind that bliss' cultivation's advocates frequently address this unavoidable dilemma by encouraging its cultivators to eventually transcend even bliss for that measure of non-dualistic freedom which changes nothing (but dissociates from everything). go and learn how to cultivate bliss. go and learn how to concentrate.

if you do this well, here are some of the benefits you will derive:
- you will develop a faculty for paying attention to your moment-to-moment experience;
- you will learn how to make your mode of experience malleable;
- you will learn to harness affective energy effectively;
- you will not sit around here intellectualising and arguing with others who can do nothing for you except point out that what you've been doing so far obviously isn't working too well;
- you will learn how genuinely useless narratives, explanations, and other such fabrications generally are when you are driven by malice and sorrow, and so
- you will stop being entangled in your thoughts (and so become able to explore the feelings which lay under your surface, and which you may only barely know exist) and/or
- you will get a handle on how you are overwhelmed by your feelings when they bull rush you into making up all sorts of stories about why it is a good idea to keep being unhappy (and so you may better learn how to cease being overwhelmed by those feelings' occurrence).

the list probably goes on but i will stop here.

*

if you wish to take my advice on this matter, there are people who read (and sometimes post) on the dharma overground whose posts and methodologies i have scrutinised and observed to be useful and instructive for getting a jhana practice off the ground, and so are people i can recommend you seek instruction from. some of these people are:

ian and
chuck kasmire
trent h
florian weps
triplethink
daniel ingram

start your own practice thread stating what you would like to learn or accomplish. if you have seen tips on previous threads that appeal to you which were given by any of the people listed above (or any others, for that matter), ask for their help explicitly and by name.

if you would like an offline approach, find a teacher proximate to your location; else, take a meditation retreat if you can take the time and think you can handle its demands. i do not recommend going it on your own; figuring out jhana can be tricky until you know what you are looking for, and if you have not figured out how to get the actualism method to work for you, i do not think it is likely that you are sufficiently skilled at working independently to make the kind of initial progress that can be made with the guidance of an experienced teacher or helping friend.

however you do it, consider learning to get into jhanas, learning to sharpen your perceptual abilities, learning to feel blissful until you spot its defects, and learning how malleable this 'reality' stuff is. then, come back to the actualism method (if you wish) and figure out once and for all how 'you' can be 'your' own best friend and bring 'yourself', malice, and sorrow to an end. maybe learn about how truly bizarre the human condition can be along the way.

*

if you are making good use of the actualism method and are doing fine with it already, or if you have had experience doing well with it in the past but are currently just going through a rough spot, you are not the audience for this message and i advise you to ignore it.

consider well whether or not you are its audience, letting neither pride nor self-loathing skew your assessment; your answer ought be determined by how well you have gotten the actualism method to work for you, having given it your sincerest, best efforts.

tarin

you're welcome.

cultivate jhana properly and it will lead to vipassana (insight). practise vipassana properly and it will lead to absorption and suppression of the hindrances (jhana).

tarin

i have split off luciano's post ('First, be careful to avoid the "Human Potential Movement...") to both preserve the integrity of this thread and give the (unrelated) topics of his post a place of their own.

tarin

because sutta-based traditions do not distinguish between the two, and (some) commentary-based traditions also recognise jhanas as being part of vipassana practice, hence the talk about 'vipassana jhanas' (cf. 'in this very life' by u pandita and ingram's 'MCTB').

in other words, if you have to make a choice, just choose whichever you'd rather start with.

Hi Tarin,

I've been feeling good (general sense of well-being; not necessary happy/enjoying) most of the times these days. However, I lack the confidence that it is possible to enjoy this moment of being alive (no matter what the event is). I know that I can enjoy when I do *certain* things, but the idea that I can enjoy *no matter what happens* is hard to digest. I am, of course, referring not to the condition of a PCE or AF, but to the intermediate stages (whilst still being a self) leading to a Virtual Freedom.

As I mentioned to you earlier, I am taking up 10-day Goenka Vipassana retreat (in Merritt, btw) in November (I had already gone to one in 2006, but that was not serious effort; yet during the next week or so lead to enjoying what would otherwise be boring tasks at work ... but that wore of). I read MCTB, and I intend to attain and stabilize at least first jhana during the first 2-3 days (the time we are expected to practice concentration on breath) so as to make the rest of the practice (body scanning; noting of 3 charecteristics) more effective. I intend to put as much as effort into it as possible.

Not sure if doing it on my own (without a meditation instructor; other than the Goenka's recorded tape) will be sufficient, but I don't care much about that now.

Of course, any clues about my first point in this post regarding not being confident that this moment can be enjoyed no matter what is welcome. One of my agenda w.r.t attending the retreat is to come out with an increased *baseline* of feeling-good (as naturally happened in my first retreat), and learn to stabilize that using the actualism method.

It should be an interesting experiment.

Wow!

In your cybernetic actual world your are the boss.
Feel free to split off this post too.
I never would have send a fellow from mine to whatever meditation asylum group ...
However some people really need medication, clinical care, a safety place and harmonic atmosphere with warmly people around.
Cordially,
Luciano

Hi fellows,

Tarin will go nuts but please consult the following link first:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf78.htm#26Oct04

And think twice before to leap into that trap pointed by Richard.
Be safe,

Luciano

as you can enjoy when <you do *certain* things>, but don't experience that same enjoyment <*no matter what happens*>, perhaps i could suggest here an intermediary between those two things: how about enjoying when <you do *anything*>?

that is, can you experience enjoyment <*no matter what you do*>?



one of the mistakes i made in my early days of meditation was to disregard the experiences of bodily ease i had had while hanging around and enjoying myself (say, while just sitting propped against a wall on a cool day), completely forgetting them when it came time to properly, formally meditate. those were days filled with agony and struggle ... and largely because i was approaching sitting with the incorrect attitude. it took a skilled meditator (whom i was the fortunate enough to meet at the end of a retreat) to point out to me how much he was enjoying himself when he sat, and to give me practical tips and clues as to what he was doing when he did, before i was able to realise the value of tuning into the ease i had known outside of practice. once i was clued in to that, i worried a whole lot less about whether i was doing it correctly or not, because i was having a better time doing it.



perhaps you could try this out at home before going on your retreat. a good number of people have made significant progress practising on their own and getting feedback on the forum.

tarin

Does this mean that jhana practice interferes with actualism? or vice versa? I have yet to hit a PCE, though I think I can hit an EE, I can enjoy this moment, and to the best of my knowledge I'm oriented towards PCE (I haven't had one so I can't be sure). I think that jhana practice probably would help my skills in this sphere of endeavor, but if there is some reason I have to stop actualism practice to start jhana practice, then I may be better off not doing jhana and sticking with actualism.

So would it be bad for my actualism practice if I did breath meditation aimed towards jhana perhaps an hour after waking and an hour before sleeping but the rest of the day practiced HAIETMOBA?

Every explanation of this 'jhana' stuff I find on this site is too hard for me to follow, having no knowledge of what these foreign words are supposed to mean or why people talk about 'sitting' in such a weird way. Say I just want to activate bliss at will as described in this thread, I need to know how to go about it. I need a complete beginners guide that will not presume I know any of these terms or the order of various attainments, and one that is also free of any spiritual nonsense.

A secular beginners guide to meditation that actually leads to real experiences of bliss.

Can someone point me to a book or site, article or thread?

Here is one:

[url=http://www.leighb.com/jhanas.htm
]http://www.leighb.com/jhanas.htm


In particular this page: http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm

:-)

That's perfect, thanks.

due to Nad's question right after mine, my question might have been missed due to how old the original thread was. so just in case my post blended into the older group of posts I'll just ask it again...

Is there some reason jhana and actualism can't be practiced at the same time? Tarin's suggestion made it seem that you should do jhana to come back to actualism, would there be anything wrong with practicing jhana for a bit each day and actualism the rest of the time?

thanks

The aim of AF is to ultimately eliminate "being". With the arising of any affective quality there arises the sense of "being". Thus "I" am my feelings are "me". The jhanas are just more refined versions of "being". You could say "I' am the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Jhana etc, and the 1st, 2nd , 3rd jhana etc is "me".

The benefit of having access to the 1st jhana at least is that the 5 hinderances are temporarily suppressed. Without the push and pull of desire and sensuality, one can cultivate some control over their mind and aim it in the direction they wish to go with a greater ease i.e. felicity and then attentiveness, sensuousness and apperception (PCE). A concentrated mind is better for being attentive to sensuousness than an unconcentrated mind IMO.

If the pure intent is there to take it all the way to the elimination of being (self-immolate), then experiencing ever more refined versions of "being" needn't be a problem. In fact, one can see that although the jhanas may be pleasant and blissful or calm and equanimous, they are ultimately lacking and still cause for potential clinging and suffering. Then with pure intent at full throttle, access to jhana could provide insights into how the flow of becoming/sense of being is ultimately unsatisfactory all the way up to the most refined state of "being" i.e. the 8h jhana. Thus one arrives at a place where no satisfactoriness concerning "being" is seen in any of its potential modes. Becoming or the flow of "being" = suffering. End becoming = end suffering for good.

Getting access to all jhanas may take some time and practice. The 1st jhana may take a few weeks of dedicated practice, or less. But if you can cultivate felicity and remain attentive to sensuousness without jhana access, then cultivate and do that. If you feel that cultivating felicity and remaining attentive to sensuousness is difficult for you, maybe cultivating at least the 1st jhana may give you the boost you need. Coupling the AF practice with jhana practice doesn't need to cause difficulties. In fact if pure intent is there to take it all the way, to eliminate "being", then there is no cause for alarm when cultivating jhanas. There is no need to fear them as the boogie man altered states of consciousness. Felicity is also an altered state of consciousness. It is used to ride the vehicle of affect to eliminate "being". The jhanas can be used in a similar way.


:-)

Nick

right, but during those weeks should I also be practicing actualism?



my specific question is,is there a reason not to both things at the same time? not literally at the same time, but like jhana for some time each day and actualism for the rest of the time? that's what I'm thinking of doing, but Tarin's quote above makes it seems like I should go do jhana, then come back to actualism and stop meditating. Maybe I'm just misreading it.

I am currently doing both and aim to get it done soon (AF that is). I don't see why not. Try it for a week, and see if concentration practice gives your actualist practice the boost you are looking for. This may come down to an individual's preference, accumulated mental garbage and life situation. Experiment, knowing that there are those who don't need jhanas and thus don't use them, but there are others on the AF path combining that access with PCE/AF practices and seeing positive results. See which fits "you".

:-)

Ok, I'll give it a shot, thanks for that link you gave to Nad btw, it's good.

Good luck in your AF-ication.