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Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness

Hi all,

I've been having some interesting times with anapanasati the last few days. I put jhana-chasing to one side for a bit while I prepare for a Goenka retreat and have been working on the "one tiny spot" school of anapana sati.

Im having good success with:

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'


By not controlling the breath at all, within a minute the breath becomes very fine and one pointed. Access concentration is very strong, but... it feels kind of intense / tense - like the body needs more air but isn't getting it and like the concentration is too strong.

Anyone know what I mean? Have any advice?

I tend to go with it and let it get stronger and stronger and stronger before allowing the attention to take in the whole body and then purposefully lengthening the breaths a bit and trying to ease up a little bit when access is really strong. This seems to work. Sometimes it results in jhana, sometimes not -- either way my body scanning afterward is pretty damn good.

Can anyone familiar with this style of anapanasati please tell me your experience?

Many thanks,

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/26/12 5:50 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:

By not controlling the breath at all, within a minute the breath becomes very fine and one pointed. Access concentration is very strong, but... it feels kind of intense / tense - like the body needs more air but isn't getting it and like the concentration is too strong.

Anyone know what I mean? Have any advice?


As you practice see if you can become aware of any tendency to 'try' and achieve success with this technique. Perhaps there is a subtle (or gross) grasping at a result , or sublte grapsing at the anapana spot that is causing the 'tension' you mention. If this is recognised in your experience then simpl apply this pointer to what you are already doing. See if there is a difference in 'tension' arising or not when paying attention as you already are versus an unfabricated way of paying attention. If you recognize that there is a difference, then you will know what to drop. In a sense it is simply like saying "relax!" and recognize that 'trying' need not be a part of doing the technique. Tension seems only to result when the mind tenses due to tendencies to 'try' too hard in my own experience.



I tend to go with it and let it get stronger and stronger and stronger before allowing the attention to take in the whole body and then purposefully lengthening the breaths a bit and trying to ease up a little bit when access is really strong. This seems to work. Sometimes it results in jhana, sometimes not -- either way my body scanning afterward is pretty damn good.


Since it is working for you, keep doing it. It is good to really beef up concentration levels before hitting the ground running on a 10 day. I did well to do the same myself.

Can anyone familiar with this style of anapanasati please tell me your experience?


Similar experience to your own. Try and see if a more relaxed unfabricated approach to the same technique eases the 'tension'?

Nick

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/27/12 4:28 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Try and see if a more relaxed unfabricated approach to the same technique eases the 'tension'?


It certainly did! I think there's room for much refinement yet but I just finished my morning sit and this advice really helped a lot. Thanks Nick.

I tried to not grasp the anapana spot at all. This required constant correction at the start, but got much easier. The result was that the one-pointedness (in terms of continuous attention to an unmoving tiny spot below the nostrils) moved a little bit now and then (nbut not much) and wasn't quite so tiny, though still very small. It seemed quite natural and easy to observe this process from a perspective of above and slightly behind my head rather than being right "in" the process, "in" the spot. Hard to explain.

When it felt good and established I widened it out to the body naturally and this very quickly became an effortless gentle 1st jhana. Again I observed and tried not to "participate" which served to sustain the jhana factors and increase them in a non-tense way that was very conducive indeed. Again I had to intervene when "I" tried to manipulate, but it didn't require too much effort as at least in this first attempt it seems that the body-mind quickly worked out that this was a good thing...

Quite for the first time as I moved into sweeping the jhana factors stayed. I seemed to complete the full hour in jhana whilst doing my sweeping. Possibly easier as I would guess I'm back in early equanimity. There was lots of gentle forgetfulness and easily caught mind wandering but the perception of vibrations / sensations was really good --better with no interference.

I think I tend to "bear down" upon the object. This would be totally in character. Doing the opposite has helped enormously.

It remains to be seen how it works out over time but it sure seems like I've got your point, and that that point is well made.

Thanks again,

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/27/12 4:44 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Try applying the unfabricated approach to all the sense doors at all times possible. It gets interesting to really start juxatposing that tendency to 'try' and 'grasp' at a result, or manipulate perception in some way and the fact that the sense doors are being bombarded without anyone 'trying' to perceive them. Perception occurs anyway, even without 'you' involved.

It can be done with any technique of meditation as well in my opinion, just sans 'trying' to do the technique. The technique due to 'intention', just happens. Very relaxed, very gentle and craving tendencies are relinquished. 'You' step out of the way of progress.

Glad it works for you. Will be interested to know how it pans out.

Nick

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/27/12 9:43 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Yep. Afternoon sit followed much the same pattern. This time the "experiencing the whole body" part of the anapanasati instructions came without any conscious decision. When one pointedness was strong it just kind of "spread out" like a gentle slow wave of sensation quickly going into jhana.

Sweeping was less pleasant (though it started great, jhana factors wore off toward the end and I seemed to be in more DN like territory) but still very detailed and effortless.

Of course i've been doing this lying down, we'll see how I cope with it when Ive got mental upper back pain after days and days of sitting emoticon

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/17/14 9:36 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Try applying the unfabricated approach to all the sense doors at all times possible. It gets interesting to really start juxatposing that tendency to 'try' and 'grasp' at a result, or manipulate perception in some way and the fact that the sense doors are being bombarded without anyone 'trying' to perceive them. Perception occurs anyway, even without 'you' involved.

It can be done with any technique of meditation as well in my opinion, just sans 'trying' to do the technique. The technique due to 'intention', just happens. Very relaxed, very gentle and craving tendencies are relinquished. 'You' step out of the way of progress.

Glad it works for you. Will be interested to know how it pans out.

Nick


Hello Nikolai,

I'm very interested in this! Could you tell me more about this? How do I practice this? How do I know I'm doing it right?

Greets

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/18/14 2:02 AM as a reply to Jorrit Zelis.
Jorrit Zelis:
Nikolai .:
Try applying the unfabricated approach to all the sense doors at all times possible. It gets interesting to really start juxatposing that tendency to 'try' and 'grasp' at a result, or manipulate perception in some way and the fact that the sense doors are being bombarded without anyone 'trying' to perceive them. Perception occurs anyway, even without 'you' involved.

It can be done with any technique of meditation as well in my opinion, just sans 'trying' to do the technique. The technique due to 'intention', just happens. Very relaxed, very gentle and craving tendencies are relinquished. 'You' step out of the way of progress.

Glad it works for you. Will be interested to know how it pans out.

Nick


Hello Nikolai,

I'm very interested in this! Could you tell me more about this? How do I practice this? How do I know I'm doing it right?

Greets

Hi Jorrit,

What technique/approach are you generally applying at the moment? Let's start from there. 

Nick

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/18/14 10:30 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hello Nikolai,

I'm practicing Anapanasati from the method of Ajahn Brahm (this is not locating the breath at the nose or the abdomen, but focus on the experience of the breath). I've tried to change my attention, reading the piece about unfabricated awareness.

I an now aware of the breath differently than before. Before I used to grab the breath with my attention, now I try to be aware without grabbing. Leading to watching the breath without reacting/interacting to/with it. I watch the breath without expectations, and before I grabbed the breath, so wanting something/clinging to the breath. I watch without attachment now. What happened is that I am now far more equanimus than before, but there is less joy now. I'm not grabbing the breath with my attention, but I'm watching the breath through letting go of more and more of everything else, making the breath more and more prominent.

Am I on the right track?

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 3:29 AM as a reply to Jorrit Zelis.
Jorrit Zelis:
Hello Nikolai,

I'm practicing Anapanasati from the method of Ajahn Brahm (this is not locating the breath at the nose or the abdomen, but focus on the experience of the breath). I've tried to change my attention, reading the piece about unfabricated awareness.

I an now aware of the breath differently than before. Before I used to grab the breath with my attention, now I try to be aware without grabbing. Leading to watching the breath without reacting/interacting to/with it. I watch the breath without expectations, and before I grabbed the breath, so wanting something/clinging to the breath. I watch without attachment now. What happened is that I am now far more equanimus than before, but there is less joy now. I'm not grabbing the breath with my attention, but I'm watching the breath through letting go of more and more of everything else, making the breath more and more prominent.

Am I on the right track?

Is calm getting established? If so, then yes, keep doing what you descirbed. The more calm, the more the conditions set up for jhanas to take shape. If no, then play around with another sense until it clicks

For example, play around with the fact that no focus is really needed to 'know' that hearing is taking place, or seeing is taking place. Simply contemplate this and then compare it or juxtapose it to 'trying' to hear and 'trying' to see something in the visual field. notice which option sucks, and simpluy recognise the option that doesnt suck. Rinse and repeat for any sense door till it becomes second nature to drop 'trying'.

Nick

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 11:04 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Jorrit Zelis:
Hello Nikolai,

I'm practicing Anapanasati from the method of Ajahn Brahm (this is not locating the breath at the nose or the abdomen, but focus on the experience of the breath). I've tried to change my attention, reading the piece about unfabricated awareness.

I an now aware of the breath differently than before. Before I used to grab the breath with my attention, now I try to be aware without grabbing. Leading to watching the breath without reacting/interacting to/with it. I watch the breath without expectations, and before I grabbed the breath, so wanting something/clinging to the breath. I watch without attachment now. What happened is that I am now far more equanimus than before, but there is less joy now. I'm not grabbing the breath with my attention, but I'm watching the breath through letting go of more and more of everything else, making the breath more and more prominent.

Am I on the right track?

Is calm getting established? If so, then yes, keep doing what you descirbed. The more calm, the more the conditions set up for jhanas to take shape. If no, then play around with another sense until it clicks

For example, play around with the fact that no focus is really needed to 'know' that hearing is taking place, or seeing is taking place. Simply contemplate this and then compare it or juxtapose it to 'trying' to hear and 'trying' to see something in the visual field. notice which option sucks, and simpluy recognise the option that doesnt suck. Rinse and repeat for any sense door till it becomes second nature to drop 'trying'.

Nick

What do you mean by: 'If no, play around with another sense until it clicks' ?

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 10:47 AM as a reply to Jorrit Zelis.
Jorrit Zelis:
Hello Nikolai,

I'm practicing Anapanasati from the method of Ajahn Brahm (this is not locating the breath at the nose or the abdomen, but focus on the experience of the breath). I've tried to change my attention, reading the piece about unfabricated awareness.

I an now aware of the breath differently than before. Before I used to grab the breath with my attention, now I try to be aware without grabbing. Leading to watching the breath without reacting/interacting to/with it. I watch the breath without expectations, and before I grabbed the breath, so wanting something/clinging to the breath. I watch without attachment now. What happened is that I am now far more equanimus than before, but there is less joy now. I'm not grabbing the breath with my attention, but I'm watching the breath through letting go of more and more of everything else, making the breath more and more prominent.

Am I on the right track?

You can do concentration on the breath or do insite with the breath. If you are being aware of each and every sensation that makes up the breath with investigation of every breath as it's own unique thing it tends to bring you to the insite Nanas. If you experience breath as in/out without any investigation it turns it a bit like a mantra and this leads you to concentration Jhanas.
Just wanted you to be aware of the distinction as the results tend to be different.
Good luck,
~D

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 10:59 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Could you give me instructions of how to practice them both?
I'm practicing focussing on the experience of the breath, and it's gonna lead me to Jhanas. Ajahn Brahm is a Jhana-kind of teacher and he claims the Jhanas can be used for insight really well. In fact, he says without the Jhanas it impossible to attain enlightenment in this lifetime, because mindfulness is far not strong enough. So I'm aiming for the Jhana-route, via the Jhanas going to insight...

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 1:15 PM as a reply to Jorrit Zelis.
Jorrit Zelis:
Could you give me instructions of how to practice them both?
I'm practicing focussing on the experience of the breath, and it's gonna lead me to Jhanas. Ajahn Brahm is a Jhana-kind of teacher and he claims the Jhanas can be used for insight really well. In fact, he says without the Jhanas it impossible to attain enlightenment in this lifetime, because mindfulness is far not strong enough. So I'm aiming for the Jhana-route, via the Jhanas going to insight...

May I recommend the book MCTB written by the author of this web site? --> Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, an Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book, by Daniel Ingram
The book covers the all the basics of practice and may expand your understanding of practice and the goal of practice. Many people have different opinions of what will lead to awakening and what awakening entails. Jhana teachers tend to believe that is the path to their awakening experiences while Vipasanna teachers believe insite will lead you to their awakening experiences. Learning about both can be useful as well as learning about the goals and what path resonates with you at what time. MCTB has a lot of vocabulary that is useful to understand what people here are talking about.
You say -
Jorrit Zelis:
I'm practicing focusing on the experience of the breath
What does this mean on a moment to moment basis? What are you doing and experiencing? where? What makes this up?
Jorrit Zelis:
Could you give me instructions of how to practice them both?

Insite/vipasanna - being aware of each and every sensation that makes up the breath with investigation of every breath as it's own unique thing tends to bring you to the insite Nanas.
Concentration - If you experience breath as in/out without any investigation it turns it a bit like a mantra and this leads you to concentration Jhanas.
Please be more detailed on what you are unclear of.
Good luck,
~D

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 4:15 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Jorrit Zelis:
Could you give me instructions of how to practice them both?
I'm practicing focussing on the experience of the breath, and it's gonna lead me to Jhanas. Ajahn Brahm is a Jhana-kind of teacher and he claims the Jhanas can be used for insight really well. In fact, he says without the Jhanas it impossible to attain enlightenment in this lifetime, because mindfulness is far not strong enough. So I'm aiming for the Jhana-route, via the Jhanas going to insight...

May I recommend the book MCTB written by the author of this web site? --> Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, an Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book, by Daniel Ingram
The book covers the all the basics of practice and may expand your understanding of practice and the goal of practice. Many people have different opinions of what will lead to awakening and what awakening entails. Jhana teachers tend to believe that is the path to their awakening experiences while Vipasanna teachers believe insite will lead you to their awakening experiences. Learning about both can be useful as well as learning about the goals and what path resonates with you at what time. MCTB has a lot of vocabulary that is useful to understand what people here are talking about.
You say -
Jorrit Zelis:
I'm practicing focusing on the experience of the breath
What does this mean on a moment to moment basis? What are you doing and experiencing? where? What makes this up?
Jorrit Zelis:
Could you give me instructions of how to practice them both?

Insite/vipasanna - being aware of each and every sensation that makes up the breath with investigation of every breath as it's own unique thing tends to bring you to the insite Nanas.
Concentration - If you experience breath as in/out without any investigation it turns it a bit like a mantra and this leads you to concentration Jhanas.
Please be more detailed on what you are unclear of.
Good luck,
~D
'What does this mean on a moment to moment basis? What are you doing and experiencing? where? What makes this up?'

I focus on how I know that I'm breathing. Ask yourself this: How do I know that I'm breathing? Focus on that ! The experience that tells you that you're breathing, there you focus on (Ajahn Brahm). This is a combination between abdomen, chest, nose (in my experience). Maybe you can try this and tell me if this is samadhi or vipassana? I'm not sure, I think a combination of both. Ajahn Brahm says it doesn't really matter, samadhi leads to vipassana and vice versa. 

@ Nikolai: I'm trying the unfabricated approach, but I think I might be overdoing it. Namely, I get a feeling behind my eyes, the opposite of when I concentrate really hard on the breath (grab it really hard), but now it's the opposite feeling. Gives me the feeling I'm trying to hard not to grab the breath! Is it normal that it feels like an effort not grabbing the breath at the beginning (because I'm training my mind in paying attention to sense objects in a big different way than I used to all of my life?), or is it because I'm overdoing it. Maybe my attention needs to be in the middle; so not grabbing my breath intently but also make no effort to make sure my attention doesn't grab the breath by all means; like just watching it without grabbing it, but if my attentions grabs it, than this is fine. Or do I have to prevent that my attention grabs the breath (so there is never any clinging/attachment to the breath)?

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
8/19/14 5:23 PM as a reply to Jorrit Zelis.
Jorrit Zelis:
I focus on how I know that I'm breathing. Ask yourself this: How do I know that I'm breathing? Focus on that ! The experience that tells you that you're breathing, there you focus on (Ajahn Brahm). This is a combination between abdomen, chest, nose (in my experience). Maybe you can try this and tell me if this is samadhi or vipassana? I'm not sure, I think a combination of both. Ajahn Brahm says it doesn't really matter, samadhi leads to vipassana and vice versa. 

I'm asking for a phenomenological break down describing what you experience moment to moment with no vagueness.
Vipassana style exploring-
Do you experience the air moving past your nostril? Is the inbreath any different from the outbreath? How?
Do you experience air moving past your throat? Where does the air sensation end?
Do you experience your chest moving? How does it feel? any differences between inbreath and outbreath? Does your chest area have any additional sensations?
Do you experience your abdomen moving? How does it feel? any differences between inbreath and outbreath? Does your abdomen area have any additional sensations?
How does the beginning of the breath feel? The middle part of the breath? The end of the breath? The transition from in to out and out to in?
Are some breaths longer than others? Is the inbreath the same length as the outbreath each time?
How does the rest of the body feel as you focus on breath sensations...any other sensations synched up to the breath? can you feel the breath moving the rest of your body?
Does any pleasant sensations arise while you focus on the sensations of breath?

Concentration style breath awareness
In....out......in.....out.....in.....out (repeat until pleasant feeling arises)

You can move back and forth from concentration to active exploring the sensation that make up the breath and get both concentration and insite going.

"samadhi leads to vipassana and vice versa" - true, this can be the case, but I tend to get a bit over geeky with things here...If you don't wanna geek out please feel free to tell me (ever so nicely) to shut my yap. (grin)
Good luck,
~D

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/27/12 3:32 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Hi BtG:

By not controlling the breath at all, within a minute the breath becomes very fine and one pointed. Access concentration is very strong, but... it feels kind of intense / tense - like the body needs more air but isn't getting it and like the concentration is too strong.

Anyone know what I mean? Have any advice?

I tend to go with it and let it get stronger and stronger and stronger before allowing the attention to take in the whole body and then purposefully lengthening the breaths a bit and trying to ease up a little bit when access is really strong. This seems to work. Sometimes it results in jhana, sometimes not -- either way my body scanning afterward is pretty damn good.

Can anyone familiar with this style of anapanasati please tell me your experience?


Here are Leigh Brasington's comments on Access to 1st absorption (simple quick instructions):

If your practice is anapana-sati, there are additional signs to indicate you have arrived at access concentration. You may discover that the breath becomes very subtle; instead of a normal breath, you notice you are breathing very shallow. It may even seem that you've stopped breathing altogether. These are signs that you've arrived at access concentration. If the breath gets very shallow, and particularly if it feels like you've stopped breathing, the natural thing to do is to take a nice, deep breath and get it going again. Wrong! This will tend to weaken your concentration. By taking that nice deep breath, you drop down the level of concentration. Just stay with that shallow breathing. It's okay. You don't need a lot of oxygen, because you are very quiet.

If the breath gets very, very subtle, or if it disappears entirely, instead of taking a deep breath, shift your attention away from the breath to a pleasant sensation. This is the key thing. You watch the breath until you arrive at access concentration, and then you let go of the breath and shift your attention to a pleasant sensation. There is not much point in watching the breath that has gotten extremely subtle or has disappeared completely. There's nothing left to watch. Shift your attention to a pleasant sensation, preferably a pleasant physical sensation. You will need a good bit of concentration to watch a pleasant physical sensation, because a mildly pleasant feeling somewhere in your body is not nearly as exciting as the breath coming in and the breath going out. You've got this mildly pleasant sensation that's just sitting there; you need to be well-concentrated to stay with it.

The first question that may arise when I say "Shift your attention to a pleasant sensation" is "What pleasant sensation?" Well, it turns out that when you get to access concentration, the odds are quite strong that some place in your physical being, there will be a pleasant sensation.
For myself, it was very common to start taking a longer breath when access concentration became apparent to me (such that I was staying a few seconds with noticing reduced breathe). I realized that I was lingering on that noticing and this action changed my attention to the chest and the reserve air, versus anapanasati, that if I returned to anapanasati, that the change from access to 1st absorption was swift. Like Nikolai and you've noted, it's not a forced or desired change. It's just a change as per instructions to stay with the anapansati object, detect pleasantness and let attention mind the pleasantness, like a free leaf stays passively with a breeze.

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/30/12 6:21 AM as a reply to katy steger.
Katy I think I understand what you mean. Today I am back in jhanas and for the first time I think I am able to "shift to the pleasant sensation". Previously I have been unable/unwilling to let go of the breath and have split my concentration between the two with varying degrees of success.

By dropping the breath and "tuning in" to the pleasantness of the sensations in the body I seem able to enter jhana more easily. The breath is still there, but on the peripheral. If I go back to it once pleasure is well established (as I think you suggest) it does indeed increase the pleasure.

I seem to go through a couple of degrees of physical pleasure and happy/content then there is a shift and the happiness drops and a kind of intensely pleasurable tingling prevails. Prior to today I've been calling that third jhana, but I think I'm wrong. Leigh's instructions would say to enter third you have to drop the physical, not drop the mental.

Not that it particularly matters right now, but... do you or anyone have an idea of what it is I might be experiencing here?

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/30/12 6:49 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
then there is a shift and the happiness drops and a kind of intensely pleasurable tingling prevails.
Does this intensely pleasurable tingling include a sense of body boundaries (e.g., one hand knows where it stops and the other begins) or has the tingling become such that there are (at present) just boundaryless areas comprised of energetic tingling (no ability to recognize limb-distinctions within the tingling); remaining, untingling areas are clearly "body", areas that are still distinct from other parts (e.g., lower legs recognize mutual separateness)?

edits for clarity

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/30/12 6:50 AM as a reply to katy steger.
I know where all the parts are. I will double check this, but Im pretty certain I can distinguish the boundaries of fingers, arms legs etc.

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/30/12 2:59 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
There's a "lifting up" feeling and forehead tension where the forehead has been furrowed lifts as well. Fine-fizz/tingling takes over from pleasure. The tingling is fine, and I can't sense individual fingers unless I focus on them. It feels rather like a nana (a/p or eq like) from scanning but there is a real sense of the mind having transitioned out of the more intense (and much less calm) pleasure of before.

I was wrong about the tingling being pleasurable. It's not. It's just tingling. What is pleasurable is the calm quality of the state after the intense and agitated pleasure of before. (though this time after reading Leighs notes i worked on the happiness/contentedness just before this and that seemed to work pretty good.

I know it's a mish-mash of notes / stages / descriptions and whatnot. I don't really expect anyone to be able to pinpoint what's going on but for the sake of completeness, there it is! Best I can do emoticon

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/27/12 3:58 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Hi Bagpuss (never thought I'd type that !)

I have had the same experience ! I was often getting to access quite quickly then getting almost too focused - resulting in headache / eye ache / general tension.

My teacher recommended getting to access concentration, then shifting to metta practice - this really helped me to get to jhana states and I often use this approach. I do a very simple metta, where I internally say to myself 'may x person be happy and well' (or something similar) - often starting with close family, then friends / colleagues. I used to shy away from metta practice, but it has helped me immensely, seemingly due to metta taking the 'I' out of things and preventing 'over focus' (if that makes sense). If you do try some metta, it might help to focus on your heart centre (or chakra, or middle dantien, or whatever other label suits!)

Good luck in your practice!

Jim

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/28/12 4:24 AM as a reply to Jim W.
Thanks Katy, Jim

Katy I've read those instructions before but have never had much luck with it. I imagine i'd do well to spend like a week or so at it rather than the occasional 1 sit effort from time to time! The best i've managed is to notice how the sensations of the whole body are pleasant - above I have mentioned how this led to jhana. I've tried a smile but that doesn't seem to do it. Im inclined to continue to refine the whole body bit but put the emphasis on that rather than the breath as thats what seems more natural right now.

Jim, I guess you're in the UK then! Bagpuss was what I watched with my grandparents at pre-school age emoticon

I have done some metta, but not from the point of trying it after establishing access. That seems very interesting, but Im going to wait till after my retreat (starts next week) before trying it. I don't want to get too sidetracked from what they teach on the course.

---------

This morning was a mixed bag. Didn't really manage to not interfere as well as yesterday but also had this odd experience that when the breath almost vanished it suddenly started again and become very "choppy". Fits and starts. I seem to recall this being an indicator for one of the early nanas but can't recall which. I have not been aware of dipping below the A&P for some months now but I did have some distinctly A&P like shudders after this choppiness suddenly smoothed out all by itself.

I imagine progress though the nanas kept me from reaching jhana today (though it did come on weakly sometime after / during A&P like stuff.

Make any sense?

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/28/12 5:50 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Hi Bagpuss - I am indeed in the UK emoticon and watched Bagpuss when I was little !

Jhana states can take a little while to get going and can come and go when you sit. With practice you can enter and leave more easily (so I have been told - I can't always get into them if I am sick/very tired/stressed!)

I wouldn't worry too much about it, maybe try a little metta after the retreat. I have never done nanas - but disappearance of the breath can happen in jhana states (but not always). The other thing to remember is that Jhana means the dropping away of the 5 hindrances and having a very concentrated mind, some of the jhana states can be quite subtle. I have experienced joy/happiness/contentment, but it wasn't quite as I expected (which is the problem when describing meditation experiences, they can be quite variable and are hard to describe !)

Hope all goes well on your retreat !

Jim

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/28/12 6:56 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:


By not controlling the breath at all, within a minute the breath becomes very fine and one pointed. Access concentration is very strong, but... it feels kind of intense / tense - like the body needs more air but isn't getting it and like the concentration is too strong.

Anyone know what I mean? Have any advice?




Hi Bagpus,

I was taught from a different perspective, Taoist, that the breath is based on ziran or the natural state just like the palm of a hand as it goes from clenched to open it is open and relaxed. The grip on the breath the contraction that holds the breath (the last of it) needs to be released.

One of the greatest contraction that holds the mind and qi is breath learn to let go and trust this. Trust that the breath will breath itself, it is not you breathing the breath breaths, it comes and goes, The Taoist put it as the great clockwork of heaven, breath moves in and out (ziran) as the breath goes out the universe breaths in when the universe breaths out you breath in

When the mind is open and relaxed same with the breath it becomes natural. Let go of holding on to it and recognize the perfection and the innate ability of life to exist without grasping it.

After birth breath starts to flow (the bellows of heaven) yet we cling to it , the mind gets pulled into the breath

Fully expire and wait for the breath to start, this is very hard at first and an easy way to recognize the tension, the clinging/grasping to breath. Learning to breath natural can have a big impact the nervous system, from muscle tension, anxiety, mental chatter and discomfort these feelings can be changed to one of ease , peace of mind, stillness, comfort and an overall sense of harmony and well being thru natural breathing

Your breathing continues constantly no matter what
your breath permeates your entire body

Check out the Russian Systema Breathing

cheers
Jeff

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
3/28/12 12:01 PM as a reply to Jeff Grove.
Yeh I can really feel the tension and stress in the breath Jeff. You're right, it's really hard to just let it be... I'll be working on it!

I do like it when you post on this kind of stuff, the perspective is really useful. Thanks.

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/2/12 3:41 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
hi BTG, it seems to me you're figuring things out for yourself just fine (finding balance--too much, too little, how to optimize practice in real time, moment to moment, seeing how different adjustments work well for you at different moments, etc.) I totally agree with nick's advice, but not so much with leigh brasington's, for personal preference reasons (what worked well and still works for me). so my response here is written as i would write to myself, catered to my practice preferences, it is what i needed to hear when i was going through similar breathing issues and questions at one point in my practice history. so don't take it as what you should do, but just one option or one way of looking at things which might be applicable to you in some sits but not others.

Bagpuss The Gnome:

...like the body needs more air but isn't getting it and like the concentration is too strong.

...purposefully lengthening the breaths a bit and trying to ease up a little bit when access is really strong. This seems to work. Sometimes it results in jhana, sometimes not -- either way my body scanning afterward is pretty damn good.

no way, don't do that. unless your mouth and nose are duck-taped shut, the involuntary breathing muscles will draw in more air if it's really needed, no need to "know" better and send panic through the body. this is one example of "knowing" that should be unknowified... mind: "this sensation seems to mean i need more air" which is a version of "i 'know' i need more air"--don't we have involuntary breathing muscles to make this judgement call? for the purpose of an adittana or concentration sit from a minute up to an hour (which at this level you already know is a safe amount of time to sit), you shouldn't be "knowing" or "knowifying" what different sensations mean. and if knowing stuff as good or bad or blissful or painful is happening a lot, it is good to figure out how to undo those habits of jumping to conclusions/solidifying conclusions, etc. because this "knowing" precedes, creates, and multiplies a lot of tension.

but say the mind failed to keep up an "unknowing" attitude and already reacted to something minor, created and multiplied tension, or say the mind (like in your case) correctly identified a buildup of unskillful fabricated attention as tension (the subtle tensions had to build up to reach a certain critical point before it could be seen as tension), my personal preference would not be to follow leigh brasington's advice to switch the attention to a pleasant sensation, but to instead switch from the 100% one-pointed anapana to half anapana and half attention gently aware of the tension of "not enough air", even if that means allowing the tension get more and more intense until i see through the cause of it--until i sit through the hump of it and ride over the hump--so that that type of tension never arises again. with one type of tension never arising again, a new level of right concentration is attained, benefiting every sit after that point onwards. this is using insight tools to attain concentration more than the other way around, which is my personal preference. sometimes it takes a sharpening or build up of tension to a certain critical point before the mind-body learns how to not tense up. diverting the attention to something more pleasant is one way of choosing "i'll deal with that tension later." and this can become a habit. the mind becomes so skillful at reverting to more pleasant sensations whenever it doesn't want to investigate tension, not knowing that those pleasant blissful sensations are also a subtler form of tension(maybe even the same type of tension!). so the choice is between switching to a pleasant sensation (which is nothing but a subtler tension if it's conceived as "pleasant" or "preferable" at all) vs staying where you can easily see tension as tension, observe and investigate it for as long as is possible (meaning for as long as mind can remain perfectly calm), to the point that the tension gets extinguished. sometimes this is not possible because the cause of the tension is too far removed from the current observable manifestation of the tension. but if this is possible, you may even end up eliminating the subtle tensions that make up bliss, and when finally switching to a pleasant sensation, you find that it's not pleasant or blissful at all, it's just sensation as-is. but if you were to try to find why blissful sensations are full of very fine tension, that's very hard to see. seeing tension as tension is really seeing things as they are, but seeing blissful sensations as bliss is not. blissful sensations are very fine, subtle tension. real equanimity and freedom is having neither tense nor blissful sensations arise as a result of seeing through and cutting all the tension involved in both tension(push/aversion) and pleasantness/bliss(pull/craving). or at the working, practical purpose level, one sign of fruitful equanimity is the capacity to spend the same amount of time peacefully observing tension as observing pleasantness.

note: the above assumes a post-A&P level of concentration.

Bagpuss The Gnome:
I was wrong about the tingling being pleasurable. It's not. It's just tingling. What is pleasurable is the calm quality of the state after the intense and agitated pleasure of before.

that sounds very healthy. sounds like your "pleasurable" is a kind of relief/freedom rather than feel-good blissful sensations.

sorry for not revising and editing the dense jumble above, i have to get some sleep.
jill

p.s. also, leigh brasington's advice seems to be for whole-breath anapana, not for one-tiny-spot anapana, because when the breath disappears in goenka-style anapana, you don't lose the focus anchor at all as you would in whole-breath anapana, but instead your focus point becomes more clear.

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/3/12 11:59 AM as a reply to TJ Broccoli.
Thanks a lot Jill.

Oddly I have trouble with this to start with, but then if I return to it a bit later in the sit it seems easier. I thin I am still controlling the breath in the beginning and that is very stressful/tense. It's a really, really unpleasant feeling when the breath disappears at the start. Later on though I think I'm more relaxed and have managed to "let go" some. I'll have a good chacne to play with this on retreat (leave tomorrow, so unlikely to post again after this).

Also it's far worse sitting than lying. I must be bouncing around in the DN most of the day because Im all pain right now and huge tiredness. Balance, in all aspects of retreat, is going to be the key I think for me

I'll keep working on this.

Cheers,

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/6/12 3:56 PM as a reply to TJ Broccoli.
TJ Broccoli:


my personal preference would [...] [be to] switch from the 100%
one-pointed anapana to half anapana and half attention gently aware of
the tension of "not enough air", even if that means allowing the
tension get more and more intense until i see through the cause
of it--until i sit through the hump of it and ride over the hump--so
that that type of tension never arises again.



* are you talking about all kinds of "tensions" here, including
emotions?

* the "seeing through the cause of [a tension]" is a new practice
advice from you. how do you see the cause of it? how does it go with
the usual advice of "stay aware and equanimous to sensations; treat
all sensations as same [having same nature]"? specifically, how do
you see the cause of a particular emotion or belief-pattern?

* further, how do you see the cause of a tension/emotion so that it
"never arises" again? certain emotions/beliefs continue to arise -
if only in a much lesser intensity (and so it doesn't bother me
much) - and i remain aware and equanimous of the body sensations. if
i can abondon it then and there, so that it "never arises" again, i
would be much exicited to try it out if it is different from
AF-style social identity analysis.

maybe you were only responding to a specific context (the tension of
breath) and i erroneously applied it to all emotions?

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/11/12 2:00 AM as a reply to srid ᠎.
hi srid,

srid ᠎:

* are you talking about all kinds of "tensions" here, including
emotions?

yes what i call "tensions" includes emotions.
srid ᠎:

* the "seeing through the cause of [a tension]" is a new practice
advice from you. how do you see the cause of it? how does it go with
the usual advice of "stay aware and equanimous to sensations; treat
all sensations as same [having same nature]"? specifically, how do
you see the cause of a particular emotion or belief-pattern?


perhaps it sounds new because here i'm describing what happens in practice a little more than in other posts where i usually describe mostly practice techniques?
"how do you see the cause of a particular emotion/belief pattern?"-- my practice did not result in directly seeing the causes of emotions/belief patterns, but resulted in seeing the causes of different tensions that make up or fuel those emotions/belief patterns, a clarity which can arise after "staying aware and equanimous to sensations; treating all sensations as having the same nature". and when that is done right, what happens is that cause-effect gets seen more clearly (which sensation arising-passing seems to be causing which arising-passing). seeing through causes is more of a fruit, not a practice intention, nothing like "ok i'm going to try to see through the cause of this now." the task is just to observe everything.

more regarding emotions/belief patterns: in my practice things were often taken as more abstract, as i tried to ignore content as much as possible, but then would often realize that by observing certain abstract tensions, energetic knots, or unpleasant/pleasant reactions, i find that certain corresponding emotional tensions have just been dealt with. it's often not clear which tensions link to which content and which emotions, as our psychological crap is a huge jumble, different emotions overlap with and bleed into each other in the forms of craving/aversion they carry, but observing tensions skillfully at the body sensation level does lead to seeing through the way they arise, and this awareness is enough for patterns of tension to either start their process of weakening (with continued repeated clear observation) or at times fall away instantly at the first discovery. when you become aware of sensations that happen to be some sort of weird exertion/habit/blind reaction that you've been doing unconsciously but has now become totally conscious and obvious to you after some practice, it can get let go of as soon as it is seen.

imagine you've been clenching your fists since forever but never knew it--all you were conscious of was just that you have some sort of stress and excessive tiredness inside. then one day you get to the point where your concentration, awareness, and equanimity are fine-tuned enough that you start to see how you've been habitually clenching your fists from time to time due to some unnecessary blind reaction, causing your hands to be sore, causing other tense reactions in the body, and leaking energy. the awareness of this clenching alone is enough to make you stop doing it (either immediately for good, or gradually over some time), because it no longer makes sense to keep creating tension and stress when you come to see how and where the harm can easily be dropped.

put another way, "seeing the cause of tension" is a form of seeing how and in what way the mind is not practicing purely objective, equanimous, and tranquil observation, and "dropping the tension" also means "getting back to paying (more) skillful attention". in other words--when paying attention, notice in what ways you're not paying skillful attention, as opposed to just switching to a more pleasant way of practicing whenever things get unpleasant.

srid ᠎:

* further, how do you see the cause of a tension/emotion so that it
"never arises" again? certain emotions/beliefs continue to arise -
if only in a much lesser intensity (and so it doesn't bother me
much) - and i remain aware and equanimous of the body sensations.

the way i see it, that "much lesser intensity" often happens as a result of certain patterns of reactions and degrees of blindness being extinguished for good. your observation above seems to assume a kind of compartmentalizing or putting various emotions/beliefs into separate boxes. the answer to the question "have things just weakened or has something just been extinguished there?" could depend on how you categorize things. for instance, do you prefer to think of "jealousy" as one thing, or a composition of different patterns of tension? you could practice and manage to extinguish certain aspects of jealousy and weaken it, and then eventually get to the point where there are only a few aspects of it left to extinguish, such that dealing with those last bits finally gets rid of everything related to jealousy.

srid ᠎:

if i can abondon it then and there, so that it "never arises" again, i
would be much excited to try it out if it is different from
AF-style social identity analysis.

your call!

srid ᠎:

maybe you were only responding to a specific context (the tension of
breath) and i erroneously applied it to all emotions?

in my practice this "clearly seeing through causes" happened to all sorts of different tensions, not just the breath in isolation. but this is only one of the ways things can unfold in practice. at other times, the causal links are not seen in as much detail, but progress is still made simply through increased concentration, tranquility, and overall attentiveness.

jill

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/13/12 4:22 PM as a reply to TJ Broccoli.
hi jill, i am deep in the tension jungle. i am currently framing the way I think about practice very much in terms of tensions, i judge success by how well i am able to relax tension. i equanimously observe tensions, trying to treat them like purely physical sensations, neither pushing or pulling and eventually they 'relax themselves.' I switch between zooming in on them, seeing everything at once, 'juxtaposing' them with actually physical sensations[1], looking beneath them[2], and doing various stuff with attention to melt them, mostly inspired by your practice advice from the past year or so.

there is one tension issue which i can't quite seem to melt however, which is that all this focusing and unfocusing creates all this eyebrow tension. my eyes, eyebrows, and cheeks sort of scrunch up (not sure if actually happening) and there is forehead pain, scalp pain etc. i've come to associate this type of tension with 'looking' at stuff, whenever i focus in on a small area of tension in the throat or chest or whatever the tension increases. the normal approach of equanimous observing didn't seem to work even with 10-20 minutes of continuous and equanimous observation so i started trying some other things. one approach was to watch the tension 'from' the back of the head, this just shifts the location of the 'watching' tension from the front to the back of the head so i gave up with that. the other approach was to 'allow consciousness to arise without 'me' looking' which was inspired by Nikolai's HP article riding the wave - unfabricated paying attention.

this did some stuff to alleviate the tension but left me confused about the nature of attention. i seemed to not be looking anywhere in particular when i inclined as far as possible towards that unfabricated paying attention thing, and it was as if 'i' couldn't know what was really going on in consciousness. i couldn't seem to focus in anywhere without creating the eyebrow tension and i couldn't seem to melt down tensions which were occurring elsewhere in the body in quite the same way without focusing in like that. I speculate that with the unfabricated attention of 'letting consciousness arise by itself' there was a sort of not-knowing tension or not-watching tension, because as the forehead tension melted there were a few little 'spurts' of fear which i associate with increases in a sense of 'centerlessness'. for this reason i am thinking that the unfabricated attention which wasn't located in any place on the body was actually doing the melting job fine but "i" was just nervous about not being involved.

so i am looking at a couple options given all that stuff.
1. simply use the forehead tension and melt down all the other tensions from this 'base' and forget about the existence of this untouchable base for now
2. do the unfabricated attention thing, so that i am not really focused on or 'from' anything/anywhere in particular and figure out the phenomenological manifestation of this idea that i don't know whats going on inside of consciousness... somehow
3. watch the forehead tension in the normal way (which seems to be what causes it)

I am currently experimenting with #2 but I'd like to hear your thoughts

thanks

[1] i picked up that tip somewhere from something you wrote, i didn't really know what you meant at the time but what I am doing now is 'feeling' the tension which exists in the throat for example inside of an actual painful sensation in the hip or knee, this seems to melt it down

[2] i just kind of noticed this worked some time - focusing exclusively on the physical sensations which are taking up the same space in the field of experience as the emotional tension to melt down the tension


melting down ftw

edit-one other random question, is there value in watching purely physical sensations other than directly using them to melt down tensions in an intentional way

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/15/12 6:46 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
hi Adam,

#2 sounds good. i'm not sure if i understand your #1 correctly, but if you're saying that some tensions are easier to chip away than others, so you'll keep chipping away the more doable ones first, then i think that's reasonable. as you keep clearing away what you can, more possibilities open up.

some more options...
causes and possible remedies for "tensions":

CAUSE: you are able to see all kinds of tension/suffering as tension, which is a form of insight. (whereas many normal, healthily progressing meditators only see gross tension as tension while interpreting the finer, subtler tensions as alluring bliss/pleasure/pleasantness/ooh-ah-satisfaction. then as their practice advances more, what they can perceive/ diagnose correctly as "tension" moves to finer and finer levels as they eliminate the grosser tensions. this post suggests that you are more likely to be of the first type.) when suffering is seen as suffering--tension here, there, and tension everywhere, small tensions add up and accentuate the sharper tensions.
REMEDY: hurry up devote as much time and attention to practice as possible and you'll make fast progress, because your insight is farther along than your energetic make-up/level of suffering.

CAUSE: (a shadow side of insight mentioned above) being fixated on knowing that certain sensations are tensions, thus creating a mental processing of "i'm tense/i'm too tense/i'm still tense", an unsatisfactory evaluation/negative judgement which can keep subtly feeding and compounding the tensions more.
REMEDY: impose some more innocence, or what i like to call "unknowing" or "unknowifying" to every step of paying attention. also called "naivete", "curiosity", or "observing objectively" in my understanding. observe things as if you're an alien consciousness visiting this earth realm to observe what it's like to operate through the human body and its senses. the alien knows nothing about what anything is, but it has been sent to perceive everything possible in the most detail (otherwise it will get banished by the mothership). there is nothing wrong with knowing too little, but "knowing" too much can be a hindrance to effective investigation.

CAUSE: trying too hard to "look at" the sensations and to "see" their exact location on the body, the mind having the habit of processing "observation" and "paying attention" as exercising eye and forehead muscles. paying precise attention to body sensations is to the mind like trying to plot xyz coordinates on the body.
REMEDY:
1. do some non-location-specific breathing meditation: instead of trying to "see" where the breath is, where it's moving or the areas it's in contact with, instead of trying to "see" where body sensations are, follow the involuntary breath very precisely by setting your primary focus on feeling how full or empty the lungs are at each split second. of course this doesn't mean to know the exact air volume, but rather to know which part of the inhalation/exhalation the breath is at. like "just starting inhale...increase...more...1/2 full...increase...almost full...full...about to release...starting release...more exhale...1/2 empty...etc. but without the verbalization. with this being the primary object, this is where you're directing effort, but it doesn't mean you have to only perceive this and nothing else(or you could if you want to make it pure concentration practice). along with this, there can be random sensations that arise that catch your attention, but you won't be straining to see them because you're not trying to "look" at anything.
2. do body sensation awareness/observation with open eyes, sitting with a relaxed gaze at a park or some place without chaotic or distracting sights. once in a while, you might take note of how the eye/head movements and tensions might be connected to excess effort in paying attention, and how some of that unnecessary effort might be dropped.
3. rather than focusing mostly on 'seeing" what the sensation is, where it is, pay more attention to the entire process of perception and what it seems to involve (intention to pay attention? object? sensation? location? duration? reaction? distraction? any judging/evaluation? etc), with the sensation part being just a component of this process.

CAUSE: (the usual, normal obstacle) being ingrained in habitual patterns (of thinking, mental processing, reasoning, physical exertion, etc.)
REMEDY: do things that will shake up your usual patterns, such as:
1. going on a retreat of 10+ days: retreat time makes you do things with your attention that you're not used to, such as extended continuous attention, having to stay awake and practice when you're super sleepy/tired, etc.
2. exhaust your physical body with an hour (or two or more if you're quite fit) of intense exercise, and then meditate after that and see if the tiredness from muscle work makes you drop some excessive exertion. even just 15 minutes of exercising fast-twitch muscle (doing "as fast as possible" exercises in intervals) will put the system into a high-alert but high-relaxation mode.
3. some meditators experiment with fasting or sleep deprivation but personally i'm not a fan of those methods, especially in excess. it's probably useful to experiment a little, like not eating past noon on retreat and getting out of bed to meditate at weird times, but i wouldn't do anything too extreme.

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/15/12 3:12 PM as a reply to TJ Broccoli.
hurry up devote as much time and attention to practice as possible and you'll make fast progress, because your insight is farther along than your energetic make-up/level of suffering.


i have been and am taking this advice, i hadn't previously done practice quite like this and now it is really going fast it seems, i seem to have cleared away what seemed to be a distinct 'layer' of tension in (perhaps) a permanent way and thought i was approaching PCE but then i realized what i took to be an actual, non-tension 'background' was actually just a subtler level of tension. your point about insight and energetic make-up being two different things really makes sense here because when i got to that 'next level' of tension i didn't even know it was tension, and now it seems i have slowed back down and am beginning to understand this subtler layer.

ty for advice

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/15/12 6:40 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
there is one tension issue which i can't quite seem to melt however, which is that all this focusing and unfocusing creates all this eyebrow tension. my eyes, eyebrows, and cheeks sort of scrunch up (not sure if actually happening) and there is forehead pain, scalp pain etc.


Check if the following helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClYhoWsKHko

RE: Anapanasati and Intensity of One Pointedness
Answer
4/17/12 9:38 AM as a reply to Change A..
Im prone to the forehead tension thing as well Adam. Sometimes it can be dealt with by just not letting it take hold. Raise your eyebrows, then frown - do this when you feel it creeping in.

Sometimes that doesn't help though. On retreat toward the 9th day I was getting a massive headache as the days wore on inside the head. It didn't seem related, but may have been. The teacher recommended not scanning the head, and only scanning downward and not sitting without moving. It kind of worked, but it was a nasty tension...

Jill your advice above re tension is excellent. You really should gather all this stuff in one place! Thanks so much.

I'll post a bit about anapana, retreat progress etc later. Im taking it easy for a few days emoticon