With this conversation aren't we missing a deeper and more meaningful divide in these types of practices? It seems that one set of practices aims for the ending of the fetters, dispassion, the end of craving, the end of 'tension,' while the other aims at the insight knowledges, penetrating the feeling of observer, and the completing of the 'energy circuit' etc.
Bhante Vimalaramsi, the creator of 'TWIM' certainly recognizes this as a major divide, he says that people reach fundamentally different 'end points' in their practice if they are aiming for penetrating the 3Cs vs. aiming for understanding the interactions of the 5 khandas, understanding the 4NTs etc. He claims that "emotional habitual tendencies" must be ended for true completion (with the brahmaviharas becoming immeasurable only when they transcend their emotional/feeling form)
There are some other than Vimalaramsi who have similar opinions, i am most aware of those from the thai forest tradition - Lee, Mun, Chah, Fuang, Geoff, Amaro, Sumedho, Passano... They are talking about something fundamentally different from someone like shinzen young, jack kornfield, mahasi sayadaw or dan ingram.
So there might be some slight teaching divides in comparing wet and dry approaches to penetrating the 3C's but there is a much clearer and more significant divide between these two ideas of what suffering is. Here is some supporting stuff:
ingram (not sure about his current opinion, but this demonstrates what alot of people think about enlightenment):
Realization comes from seeing things as they actually are now, not trying to imitate some bizarre behavioral or emotional ideal.
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtmlyoung - demonstrates that he thinks that the only issue regarding emotion is how to express it here:
http://www.shinzen.org/Articles/artExpressEmo.pdfcompared to:
vimalaramsi from his essential TWIM instruction on the 6R's:
Meditation (Bhavana) helps one let go of such difficult delusional states in life as fear, anger, tension, stress, anxiety, depression, sadness, sorrow, fatigue, condemnation, feelings of helplessness or whatever the catch (attachment) of the day happens to be.
http://dhammasukha.org/Study/Articles/simple-easy-mind.htmAjaan geoff/thanissaro bhikku:
The brahmaviharas, or “sublime attitudes,” are the Buddha’s primary heart teachings—the ones that connect most directly with our desire for true happiness. The term brahmavihara literally means “dwelling place of brahmas.” Brahmas are gods who live in the higher heavens, dwelling in an attitude of unlimited goodwill, unlimited compassion, unlimited empathetic joy, and unlimited equanimity. These unlimited attitudes can be developed from the more limited versions of these emotions that we experience in the human heart.
The trick here is learning how to develop these emotions when you need them. All too often our attitude towards our emotions is that they’re a given. You hear the Buddha saying you can actually change your emotions. This is an important skill, that you can feel goodwill for anyone at any time when it’s called for. You can feel compassion, empathetic joy, any time for anyone when it’s called for. You can develop equanimity even in cases where people are close to you, you want very much to help them, but you can’t. You’ve got to develop equanimity. And this requires skill. This is another thing we learn through the meditation. As the Buddha once said, our emotions are a fabrication. They are things that are created in the mind, they are not necessarily a given.
What are they made out of? Physically they are affected by the breath. Inside the mind they are affected by the kind of conversations the mind has with itself, and also by feelings of pleasure and pain, neither pleasure nor pain, and the perceptions—the labels we put on things. And as we meditate, we are trying to learn how to be more conscious of these factors so that we can turn them in the right direction. If you breathe with more knowledge and alertness, it helps to develop more skillful emotions. Because what is an emotion? It’s a thought that gets into your body. It has an impact on your heart rate and other physical processes. Well the impact comes through the breath. So if you can learn how to get in touch with your breath and can smooth out the breath, soothe out the breath when it gets erratic or disturbed, then you have a grounding for developing skillful emotions, embodying skillful emotions so they are not just thoughts. [..]
note: thanissaro bikkhu often talks about tension as a way of breathing
Ajaan Lee:
We feel nothing but disenchantment, disinclination, and dismay over the way living beings in the world are born and die. We see it as something meaningless, without any substance. We’re through with feelings of liking and disliking. We’ve run out of attachment for ourself and everything else. The mind has moderation. It’s neutral. Even. This is called six-factored equanimity (chalaºg’Òpekkh›). We let go of the things that happen, that we know or see, letting them follow their own regular course without our feeling caught up in them. The mind will then move up to liberating insight.
At this point, make your strength of mind even more powerful, to the point where it is freed from attachment even to the realizations it has come to. Knowing is simply knowing; seeing is simply seeing. Keep the mind as something separate. Don’t let it flow out after its knowing. We know, and then leave it at that. We see, and then leave it at that. We don’t latch onto these things as being ours. The mind will then gain full power and grow still of its own accord—not involved, not dependent on anything at all. Fabrications disappear completely, leaving just a pure condition of dhamma: emptiness. This is the phenomenon of non-fabrication. Release. The mind is free from the world— exclusively within the current of the Dhamma, without going up or down, forward or back, progressing or regressing. The mind is a stake driven firmly in place. Just as when a tree is attached to a stake by a rope: When the tree is cut down, the rope snaps in two, but the stake stays put. The mind stays put, unaffected by any objects or preoccupations.
This is the mind of a noble disciple, a person free from the fermentations of defilement. Whoever trains his or her heart in line with what has been mentioned here will meet with security, contentment, and peace, free from every sort of trouble or stress. What we have discussed briefly here is enough to be used as a guide in the practice of training the mind to gain release from suffering and stress in this lifetime. To take an interest in these things will be to our advantage in the times to come.
I think you get the point, is there any question that these two groups are talking about radically different ideals of enlightenment? One group is constantly focusing on defilements, unskillful thoughts aren't to be tolerated, they are talking about the literal fetter model of the suttas, they do practices of staring at dead bodies to diminish lust... they aren't doing the 3C penetration thing.
I only mention this bigger divide because if you are going to use Vimalaramsi's method as something with a similar goal as MCTB, you should know that he really disagrees with this take on things, he specifically says in his dhammatalks that noting the 3 characteristics doesn't get you the real deal attainments.
from his book 'the breath of love':
Mind opens when it sees and realizes these twelve impersonal links of Dependent Origination directly. As a result, mind becomes dispassionate and free. This is as true now in present times, as it was 2600 years ago. Any teaching that doesn’t highlight the necessity of Dependent Origination as its realization and final goal or destination isn’t teaching the true path. Currently, many people say that seeing impermanence, suffering, and notself is realizing Nibbàna. However, you must note that although these characteristics do lead the way to realizing Nibbàna and are very important to
develop, they don’t directly allow you to see the supramundane state of Nibbàna.
You might have guessed by my lopsided knowledge and presentation that i strongly agree with the second group, i don't really know why so many people seem to be going against what is clearly stated in the suttas. The suttas define suffering as:
sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair
eh ill cut myself off here, this has gone on for a while =o i
think you get my point by now... there may be a wet/dry teaching philosophy divide, but there is a deeper fundamental divide about what suffering is, what its cause is, what its cessation is, and what the path leading to the cessation is.