Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Miscellaneous

Bodily death at moment of enlightenment

I've read in a couple of sources that "99%" of enlightened people cannot retain hold of the body at the moment of enlightenment.

This obviously doesn't seem to hold up here or in any Buddhist circles.

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfxpfEYUv9g&feature=g-vrec

and

"Most of the people who have become enlightened have died either immediately or within a few minutes or a few hours. The experience is so great, and the shock to the system of the body is unabsorbable. Out of thousands, perhaps a few have survived. And there are reasons why they survived." - Osho

Is this due to practicing a different practice than the Buddhist methods? What are the reasons for this in these particular practices?

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/14/12 1:42 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
How do they know if these guys got enlightened before dying?

If this is true, it's probably a different meaning to the word enlightenment than what's commonly used here.

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 10:49 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
lol, not true buddy

questioning the fallibility of enlightened people seems to crop up occasionally on here....

Enlightened can make mistakes, even big ones

Even respected attained people will occasionally say things that are off.

Here's an enligthened person who commited adultery against the, enlightened beautiful women next to him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fNOJlroz4M

-d

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 11:57 AM as a reply to Bailey ..
Enlightened can make mistakes, even big ones


Even in matters concerning enlightment?

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 2:23 PM as a reply to Mario Nistri.
Mario Nistri:
Enlightened can make mistakes, even big ones


Even in matters concerning enlightment?


O.o

Enlightenment is not a matter of concern.

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 3:38 PM as a reply to Bailey ..
Even respected attained people will occasionally say things that are off.


I don't doubt that what they are saying is true in the specific practices they are familiar with. I asked the question because I was curious why these practices work the way they do. However, it's obvious that nobody on this forum knows what these practices are or how they work.

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 3:40 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom A Vitale:
Even respected attained people will occasionally say things that are off.


I don't doubt that what they are saying is true in the specific practices they are familiar with. I asked the question because I was curious why these practices work the way they do. However, it's obvious that nobody on this forum knows what these practices are or how they work.



I think it goes like this:


Enlightenment to these people IS death, and it is a rare few who get to experience that death while remaining alive in the organic sense.

So its not that 99% of people die on enlightenment, its that 99% of people dont get enlightenment until the moments of dying.

One man's thoughts.

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 5:26 PM as a reply to m m a.
So its not that 99% of people die on enlightenment, its that 99% of people dont get enlightenment until the moments of dying.


I don't think that's what Sadhguru is saying in the video.

He states "if your energies raise beyond a certain pitch than this physical body cannot hold them anymore.... Only people with mastery of the physical system can hold onto the body."

This might have significance on this forum if someone decides they're going to get "actually free" and then dies after a few years because they cannot retain hold of the body, but nobody warned them (not that they would care). Or if someone decides they're going to sit in nirodha for a couple days and then can't hold onto the body anymore as a result of sitting in too much cessation.

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/22/12 5:52 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Indeed, this might have significance if this is the case.

However I find this claim highly questionable.
His reasoning might sound right, but consider this:
It is not easy to verify if a person is "enlightened" or not normally, so how can it be verified after they are dead?
Of course I know he isn't claiming an exact percentage, when he says 99% he mean "very few", but even so...

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
9/23/12 4:03 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
We have to laugh, I suppose. These fake guru's pop up everywhere, if only they knew what the body was, they'd never talk such twaddle.

When folks are in darkness, any voice becomes a guiding voice, but what if that voice is leading to a deep endless hole? Not coming out of, leading to. Get thee behind me, sayth the guru.

What is this pitch, he talks of? The body has no pitch whatsoever. Sure there are many frequencies dancing around the music of other frequencies, but these all work in harmony and there certainly aren't “higher” or “lower”.

Does the mind have pitch? Incompatible with the body?
Does the self have pitch? Incompatible with the body?

Obviously not.

If what this guru guy is saying was true, would babies be able to hold it together? We’d have a hell of a lot of still births, that’s all I can say.

I’ve also spoke with advanced practitioners of Kriya yoga, and they know a lot less of the body than the average Western MD/GP. So again doubt is thrown upon Sadguru’s words.

"Most of the people who have become enlightened have died either immediately or within a few minutes or a few hours. The experience is so great, and the shock to the system of the body is unabsorbable. Out of thousands, perhaps a few have survived. And there are reasons why they survived." - Osho

Here Bhagwan Osho reveals yet more nonsense to his willing little lapdogs.

Electric shock of a certain voltage will kill the body, extreme emotional shock can kill the body.

Can you see the clue there?


















































It’s not “can”, it is “shock”.

Enlightenment is not a shock to the system. Neither to mind nor body. Actually is has a very beneficial effect upon the body… and yes it even boosts libido, so come on down get it on special offer by superguru near you.

Reaction results in shock.

The reaction of high voltage raw electric upon the watery fluidic nervous system. The deeply destructive emotional reaction of being told your only beloved child has just died. Yep, attachment has an atrophying effect, sometimes immediately terminal.

So why, oh why, would enlightenment result in a deeply destructive emotional reaction?

Enlightenment is when all lights are turned on, darkness no more. What is seen is seen. No problemo.

If the human body could not sustain an on-going enlightened status there would be no enlightened human beings. Although it has been recently anncounced that evolutionary theory suggests that our brains are about to get an expansive cortex to accommodate such godly goodness.

RE: Bodily death at moment of enlightenment
Answer
10/4/12 10:41 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom A Vitale:

"Most of the people who have become enlightened have died either immediately or within a few minutes or a few hours. The experience is so great, and the shock to the system of the body is unabsorbable. Out of thousands, perhaps a few have survived. And there are reasons why they survived." - Osho

Is this due to practicing a different practice than the Buddhist methods? What are the reasons for this in these particular practices?


He is not taking about those who become enlightened using meditation. He is talking about the vast majority that follow non-meditation path to moksha/salvation/liberation.

In Hinduism/Vedantic traditions, there are 4 ways to get moksha/final liberation from samsara.
1) Raja Yoga (meditation, yoga asanas),
2) Karma Yoga(Disipline of wholesome actions without attachment to the results),
3) Bhakti (Devotion) Yoga,
4) Jnana(Wisdom/knowledge) Yoga.

Those who follow Raja Yoga get enlightened via meditation and acheive mokhsa at the time of death, if they have reached the final path/stage.

The others, who follow Karma, Bhakti, Jnana yoga, based upon their efforts and accumulation of good deeds/parmis in buddhism, in this life term, may achieve enlightenment and moksha at the time of death. In such cases, full enlightenment happens a few seconds prior to death and moksha/liberation, immediately at the time/after death. Sadguru is talking about people from this category, which makes up a majority of enlightned people.

At least in India, most people follow what is easy, which is Bhakti Yoga - devotion to god, in a form of your choice. A few combine two or all three of these paths.

Metta,