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Science and Meditation

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality

This is an interesting article by Sam Harris on his own path and perspective on enlightenment:

An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality

I once spent an afternoon on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Galilee, atop the mount where Jesus is believed to have preached his most famous sermon. It was an infernally hot day, and the sanctuary where I sat was crowded with Christian pilgrims from many continents. Some gathered silently in the shade, while others staggered about in the sun, taking photographs.

As I gazed at the surrounding hills, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. Everything was as it had been—the cloudless sky, the brown hills sloping to an inland sea, the pilgrims clutching their bottles of water—but I no longer felt separate from the scene, peering out at the world from behind my eyes. Only the world remained.

Continue reading...

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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8/14/14 1:24 PM as a reply to Andreas Thef.
Thanks for sharing, I think this article was great, it very well addresses questions that I have been having, related to the relationship between 1st person experience and 3rd person scientific truth, the relationship between Vipassana gradual path (he even studied in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition and attempted to get stream entry) and direct inquiry, etc. It kind of reinforces Kenneth Folks model and my own feeling that they should be integrated more seamlessly. I was also interested to read that, being an athiest, he believes that consciousness is not completely tied to the 5 senses. 

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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8/14/14 2:15 PM as a reply to Jason Snyder.
Cool article!

Jason, I think the 'consciousness not being tied to the five senses' bit was just in the context of his describing formless experiences. He was pointing out that lots of scientists (and ordinary folk) who have never had such an experience believe that people only lie about having such experiences, or fantasize about them. I would bet that Sam believes there are cuases of formless experiences in the brain and that thus they require a brain in order to happen.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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8/14/14 3:20 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Cool article!

Jason, I think the 'consciousness not being tied to the five senses' bit was just in the context of his describing formless experiences. He was pointing out that lots of scientists (and ordinary folk) who have never had such an experience believe that people only lie about having such experiences, or fantasize about them. I would bet that Sam believes there are cuases of formless experiences in the brain and that thus they require a brain in order to happen.

Hi Jake, I agree that he isn't trying to say that consciousness independent of the brain is happening, but it seems pretty clear to me that he is alluding to an aspect of consciousness not tied to the direct cognizing of objects via the senses. I have also heard him talk elsewhere that he acknowledges the Mind-Body problem. Here is the full quote with the relevant part in bold. 

"I spent several years deeply preoccupied with reaching the goal of cessation, and at least one year of that time was spent on silent retreat. Although I had many interesting experiences, none seemed to fit the specific requirements of this path. There were periods during which all thought subsided, and any sense of having a body disappeared. What remained was a blissful expanse of conscious peace that had no reference point in any of the usual sensory channels. Many scientists and philosophers believe that consciousness is always tied to one of the five senses—and that the idea of a “pure consciousness” apart from seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching is a category error and a spiritual fantasy. I am confident that they are mistaken."





RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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8/14/14 5:45 PM as a reply to Jason Snyder.
Sounds like the formless realms to me

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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8/14/14 6:01 PM as a reply to Jason Snyder.
Fantastic article. I hadn't known that Sam Harris started meditating in the Burmese vipassana tradition. It's also interesting that noting never worked for him, but he was able to get mileage out of the nondual perspective.

I've wondered how Ajahn Brahm and Ven. Sujato can claim that cessation is impossible without ultrahard jhana (no sense of the body even in the form jhanas). Maybe that's just how it works for some people: noting gets you nowhere unless you're very, very concentrated. Whereas for many of us, the mind becomes concentrated as a result of noting (khanika samadhi / momentary concentration), so noting can be an effective technique after minimal samatha practice.

Another point: If Sam never experiences fruition-type cessation (like Chuck Kasmire), does that mean he has never experienced nirvana? Or is the phenomenology of experiencing the unfabricated simply different for him? In the Pali Canon it seems clear that there's no eradication of identity view, much less the deeper grades of self-delusion, without experience of the unfabricated.

I saw a debate on Dhammawheel where some Theravadin meditators argued that 1) the unfabricated can be touched by the mind while the other 5 senses operate as normal, while others argued 2) nirvana is the temporary cessation of all experience and can't be touched in any other mode. Thanissaro's description is that with the total absence of volitional intent, the process of karmic ripening temporarily ceases (and all experience ceases along with it) in nirvana, then experience resumes.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/4/14 6:49 AM as a reply to Matthew Horn.
Just as an update on this, Sam Harris has a new book out on the 9th called Waking Up which will detail his own meditation path and reccommendations.

Here he is just 2 days ago on the Joe Rogan podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Q6CWv7IXo

I'm not sure how I feel about Sam just yet.  I think he has a great mind and certainly makes me think about things from a different perspective sometimes, but I do find him quite humourless and joyless for someone who has been meditating for so long.  I also don't think he's doing anything new here, with separating meditation from Buddhism, where other people have done better (Danial, Kenneth Folks and Shinzen Young imo - who all have more heart).

I will probably read the book regardless but wondered what everyone else thinks..?

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/4/14 9:26 AM as a reply to Andreas Thef.
The true litmus test here isn't if it worked for Harris, it's if it worked for his students. This is the case since he is claiming that the flaw in Dzogchen was the way it was taught. Can Dzogchen be put in such system that anyone can teach it or it requires a set of rare skills that only a few people have, in the spirit of direct transmission? I hope that he did some field testing of his teachings before releasing a book that might end up one of the most popular meditation book ever. 

I hope also that he will deal with the stages of insight in his book. If we are to set hundred of thousand of people on this path without providing them the elbow room to deal with the side effects as participant of a society,  it will get busy in the psychiatric wards. 

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/4/14 9:49 AM as a reply to Simon T..
That was one of my concerns also, that he would not address the difficult areas a person can come to.

Any review and modernising of Dzogchen is welcome, as trying to decipher some of the practices is a painful process.  With Sam though I am afraid that he probably hasn't tested any of his reccommended practices with students and this is all from his own experience.  That he talks with such certainty without any wider validation is worrying, especially as, like you say, this book will no doubt be another best seller for him.

I guess if it gets more people to think seriously about meditation practices then that can only be a bonus in the long run, even if there is some dark night collateral damage.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/13/14 1:24 PM as a reply to Andreas Thef.
Someone posted on reddit the meditation instructions found in Waking up:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/comments/2fxen2/waking_up_by_sam_harris_all_meditation/

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/13/14 1:41 PM as a reply to Andreas Thef.
I just finished the audiobook which is about 5 hours long. The audiobook doesn't have the footnotes which are also interesting (got the book on piratebay to read those). Harris aims with this book is to convince scientifically-minded people that the sense of self is worth to be investigated and will vanish under close inspection. The book doesn't go deaper in instructions and Buddhist theory than what posted on reddit above. The book is really more about making a point than providing guidance. It might comes out as stating the obvious sometimes for those already into this stuff. The chapter on consciousness is the one that I found the most interesting as are the insights coming from neuroscience. Harris is quite explicit that he isn't done on this path, saying that he still get lost in his thoughts quite a bit. There is a section dealing with gradual vs suddent enlightenment and he said that the therevada path wasn't working for him and he never got a cessation. On the other hand, he is very into dzochen. He deal with the moral limitations of enlightenment, citing examples of Trungpa Rinpoche among others. He also deal with the good and bad sides of psychedelics. 

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/23/14 2:42 PM as a reply to G Mojo.
I watched him on both his Joe Rogan appearances, and I conclude that he should always be led away from the subject of Islam because he looks really stressed and pale when gets into it. Other than that he's the only famous atheist who's also a contemplative which is probably a good bridge between science and religion.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/23/14 2:45 PM as a reply to G Mojo.
I believe he ran a meditation for scientists project a few years ago, never did catch up with that but I'm sure the results are out there somewhere to see if he drove anyone crazy.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/24/14 1:40 PM as a reply to John.
John:

... Other than that he's the only famous atheist who's also a contemplative which is probably a good bridge between science and religion.


I found his book disappointing.  He breezed through, in fifteen or twenty pages, the part that I was looking forward to.  As a neuroscientist (I think he has his Masters) and an experienced meditator having done a few years in retreat practice, I thought he'd detail his practice in practical language, what insights he had, and try to put them into scientific terms.  Instead there was a lot of general fluff aimed at non-meditators.  Though, I understand he was writing to a non-meditator audience.

Harris explains, very quickly, that he gave up on vipassana after not getting stream entry first path, and turned towards Dzogchen.  That he had a positive experience with his new teacher.  But he doesn't go into any detail, like how far did he get in vipassana, why did he 'fail', did he have to start over with Dzogchen, how long did his progress take, did his success with Dzogchen line up with what he was looking for with vipassana.  etc....   

There wasn't much in his book that I haven't already read in other books. 


* edit, I meant 1st path above, not stream entry.  sorry.. 

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/24/14 7:12 PM as a reply to chris ..
I don't know about the paths and streams etc., I'll have to read up. Except I can see it's a silly use of the word "path" if it really means goal or landmark. Maybe it's a translation thing.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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9/26/14 10:34 AM as a reply to chris ..
chris .:
I thought he'd detail his practice in practical language, what insights he had, and try to put them into scientific terms.  Instead there was a lot of general fluff aimed at non-meditators.  Though, I understand he was writing to a non-meditator audience.

There wasn't much in his book that I haven't already read in other books.  


I'm reading it now...so far pretty good but I agree with your take on it. I wish h would get into personal experience a bit more...
It has many good quoteable parts to it...
Sam Harris:
"In fact, when I pay attention, it is impossible for me to feel like a self at all: The implied center of cognition and emotion simply falls away, and it is obvious that consciousness is never truly confined by what it knows. That which is aware of sadness is not sad. That which is aware of fear is not fearful. The moment I am lost in thought, however, I’m as confused as anyone else."

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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10/5/14 4:43 PM as a reply to chris ..
chris .:
\As a neuroscientist (I think he has his Masters)...
Just a point of info, but according to Wikipedia, he has a Doctorate.

RE: Sam Harris: An Atheist’s Guide to Spirituality
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10/5/14 4:45 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Simon T.:
I hope also that he will deal with the stages of insight in his book. If we are to set hundred of thousand of people on this path without providing them the elbow room to deal with the side effects as participant of a society,  it will get busy in the psychiatric wards. 
He doesn't, but he, unlike many outside the pragmatic "hard core" scene, at least acknowledges the dark side. For example, he specifically makes reference to Willoughby Britton.