Hello,
Seems the OP was deleted...or something. Let me know if you want me to remove this reply (which contains the previous, now missing, post)
Matthew Moore:
the overall message is i appear to have attained what daniel describes in page 302 of his book about the sudden schools of awakening, firmly within the tradition though not neccessarily exclusive to the Mahayana side of buddism. ill make a discaimer that if i fall out of this state, if it turns out to be and insight stage or whatever, and i am just another classic case of jumping the gun and being deluded about something then this can all be disregarded. all i can say it doesnt feel like i have achieved some kind of a path or A and P which would need investigating in any way
What exactly is it you're claiming to have accomplished? Arhatship?
Matthew Moore:
my speculation is that the actual freedom movement is attaining what mahayana is working toward perhaps or somewhere in that area. i dont know the current status of the discussions between AF and buddihsm, heres what it looks like to me.. the concept that this is somehow new is pretty ridiculous, just odd or plain outrageous, if thats the case, maybe ill claim it instead, so, im the first, (obviously im not).. it appears to fit into of traditional methods. bruno,you suggest channeling spock which amuses me.. , due to it having its own voice type thing. it does kind of have its own logic, but not anything wild, not anything really beyond. hard to describe, but following everyday reasoning for many on the spiritual path.
I have found nothing hard to describe about what it is I experience these days (freedom from the human condition). And personally, it has proven to be far "beyond" anything else I've experienced (including arhatship of the MCTB-described variety).
Matthew Moore:
it happened pretty much spontaneously but was the result of years of endless rather neurotic ponderings and kind of cross referencing of concepts and came down to a matter of logic and sort of looking between the lines. at some point a feeling arose and i kind alllowed it to happen rather than fighting it with fear. it wasnt really like i meant it to happen, it just seems that way after as the logic of it comes apparent that i found what i was trying to work out.. mysterious sounding, but not really though, relatively profound and at the same time natural and normal, . my initial fumblings in meditation where within insight, which i think might have helped in terms of complementary concepts and theories and part of me getting a grip on things... so seems as valid as anything, i cant imagine it somehow impedes as all seems like a case of when or if things are ripe naturally then this area which appears familiar to areas of buddism might become apparent,,
Okay...
Matthew Moore:
it seems pretty well summed up by kenneth folk here.. http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+Controversy in talking about the lack of consensus on the end point, ultimate reality or whatever..
Buddhists have been arguing about this question of "dependently arisen" vs. "inherently existing" awareness for over two thousand years, and there is no resolution in sight. We are not going to resolve it here. One thing we can do, though, is acknowledge that there is this disagreement and see for ourselves how it comes about--because it is not some obscure point of doctrine; rather, these views are based on the actual experience of real flesh and blood humans who do these practices and come to radically different conclusions.
So let's look at how this happens. It is simultaneously easy to understand and impossible to resolve. It has to do with the assumptions you take into your practice. If you believe, as do the conservative Theravada Buddhists, that everything must be investigated for the three characteristics of suffering, impermanence, and no-self, you will not find primordial awareness. You will find only suffering, impermanence, and no-self.
If, on the other hand, you believe that nothing you can do will reveal the truth and that the best thing to do is to surrender completely to this moment, you will discover Primordial Awareness.
This is actually quite a good joke on all of us, so let's take a moment to enjoy it. It isn't even complicated. Because the recognition of Primordial Awareness is "uncompounded," anything you can do will distract you from recognizing it. "Anything you can do" includes investigating your experience through an act of will. The very act of investigation is compounding the situation and preventing the recognition of Primordial Awareness. This awkward situation of using the fabricated mind to seek out the truth of the un-fabricated has been likened to sending the chief of police to investigate an arson, when the chief of police is himself the arsonist. The culprit will never be found.
Unfortunately for those deluded enough to buy into it, this is half baked at best...easy to understand and impossible to resolve, eh? One can disguise one's own confusion in vague (thus profound sounding to the gullible) messages such as this, but I do not suffer that sort of foolishness one little bit. 'Primordial Awareness' is a delusion, and I would be doing no one a favor by saying otherwise.
Matthew Moore:
all i can say is that it feels like i have acheived the recogniction of primordial awareness as stated by kenneth. the AF stuff in relation to buddhsit tradition seems confused because its hard to categorise the simply uncompounded.. seems like an old arguement. so i would like to repeat, nothing too weird going on here just a strange mix up of buddhist traditions. it feels from here that it does kind of pull the rug on the Theravada side, but that could somehow be vice verca. all in all it makes no difference. its nothing new that people have claimed these states, and nothing new that it a sticky point. the only thing that really needs to be eradicated is all the confusion and strange ideas of and about AF
There is no mix up or confusion over here...perhaps this common-theme of (misplaced) confusion can be recognized for what it is, then reeled back home and leveraged toward realizing one's own autonomy.
Matthew Moore:
also check ken wilburs great chain. it simply appears, and this is speculation, that insight type training, goes up and down the chains.. Mahayana type stuff sits under all the chains and cant be accesed through insight alone, just some kind of logical putting 2 and 2 together and it making sense. seems pretty simple. all worthy goals. seems that the AF thing sort of claims just simply back to number 1 in the chain, physical, and that is supposed to be a brand new thing. who knows, maybe those guys are on a different trip, somekind of different uncompounded state.. 2 cognizing non dual states?.. i guess you could say the same well maybe the buddhist experience is actually experiencing this simple reduction.. but whatever, its not new. if it was some completely other state than i am in, then well, im clueless
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://wilber.shambhala.com/images/misc/great-chain.gif&imgrefurl=http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptG/part1.cfm/&usg=__JHWMEL8AXMwnsTqKs9tF8Kh6uA4=&h=373&w=398&sz=16&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=MsoYjFtqBHt0VM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=153&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwilber%2Bgreat%2Bchain%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D1007%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=137&vpy=78&dur=452&hovh=143&hovw=153&tx=126&ty=104&ei=hIaATJvIK83gONTg0eMN&oei=hIaATJvIK83gONTg0eMN&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=33&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
Interesting, is it not, that you confidently state "its not new," and yet proceed to immediately defy your own certitude by acknowledging that you may well be clueless...
Matthew Moore:
bruno- really, dont worry about all of this actual freedom movement stuff. i know its concerning, and confusing, just take no notice, you seem pretty damn wise in sensing the crazyness of this being new.. all it really comes down to is a weird website that seems a bit synister and cultish somehow, or that somehow it is a trap. .. seems like there are many old heads around who have charted this before the richard and a small section of a relatively obscure website came along. this site seems to have a category for the range of traditions, actual freedom is just a weird anomly, like a girl hanging out in the guys locker room.. i would suppose the arguement comes in where the Mahayana people say, hey this is it, i found a perfect state, i feel happy and free and the theravada people assume it is some kind of deluded state. As if you enter the state you see the logic, then the arguement can never really be resolved. thats all really. confusion arises. you will logically see it or not.. but insight practise seems valid, its all part of the spectrum.
As I stated in another thread, there is no "movement," it is all quite still here. There are, however, people are reading, exploring, investigating, sharing...and this is wonderful.
Have you considered that these foreboding feelings you find yourself experiencing may be happening because you've actually comprehended just what is being said, and as such, are scared shitless at the prospect(s)?
Matthew Moore:
its all quite funny really...
In a sense, yes...funny writ large; however, as 7 billion of our fellow humans are suffering like mad, it behooves one to reel it in and consider just what is at stake.
Matthew Moore:
just to comment on the state itself, its nothing too wacky.. though it all hasnt really sunk in yet..feels like will need to integrate it more, i felt strong feelings of compassionate joy when i went for a walk, doesnt feel too unusual, seems to fit nirvana descriptions, but not in a way that feel like is a big deal.. yes is a bit unusual, but not unexpected. just it needs to sink in a bit more, its all a bit tainted by tiredness at the mo,
If there were any affective feelings at all, of any kind (let alone strong ones of the variety indicated), it has nothing to do with the PCE or an actual freedom. If you would like, I encourage you to post what your current methods entail and I will attempt to redirect you when I have the time to reply; that is, if your aim is genuinely to sample the PCE.
Matthew Moore:
feel like all i really did was work out a simple puzzle of logic, .. i am also very wary of promoting this neccessairly, feels like if it should happen, it should happen, thats all, thats how i awoke, thats all i have to go by. you can be happy without all this
I don't really follow what you're saying here...care to clarify?
Matthew Moore:
i feel like when i get up tomorrow and see my family it will be a joy, and that when i call my girlfriend i will love all of her idiosyncrasies. .. just without an underlying sense i am trying to work some weird thing out. in a way, i already could appreciate these concepts simply in mindful terms of trying to not get lost in reactions, again nothing new, it is just revealed more clear without the maddening 'i know i shouldnt feel like this but i do' cycle.
Alright...
Matthew Moore:
if for some reason i awoke tomorrow or whenever i drop out of this, ill let you know. also if somehow, i suddenly felt like i was in going a bit mad, i would tell you that too. i really dont want to appear as a mystery cultist of anykind. or even be associated as an AF movement type guy. buddism seems to cover it.
Okay then.
Matthew Moore:
funny if i look at the title of the thread, help me get my head around this.. i did get my head around this..but i dont attribute it to something to do with anything special in the actual freedom movement, it was just part of a chain of investigations that included many things and my own logic.
You may want to continue your investigation, as you seem quite confused...but, of course, you may do whatever you like.
Matthew Moore:
i guess in terms of daniel, and speculating about his experiences and the apparent u turn on his book which in turn has pulled the carpet from under peoples feet and left them slightly bewildered.. just consider this (from wikipedia)
Mahayana traditions consider that Nirvana Without Remainder is always followed by Nirvana With Remainder[citation needed] — the state of attainment of arhat is not considered final, and should be succeeded by Bodhisattvahood[citation needed].
so daniel can maybe be just seen as completing some kind of a complete journey, full circle. and no need to cycle.
and as daneil says, he is happy he followed the inight path, and he wrote a great and totally valid book on it. so if he finishes the whole thing of then maybe he can just write another book, MTCTOTB REDUX , or a criptic footnote. or maybe it will somehow fall back into something in the insight path
daniel is a excellent teacher, but dont fret about what he is or isnt doing or if he is doing something crazy. i can only assume that becuase he was so locked into insight he keeps going through these modes. 'PCE' as they call it, though feels nicer just to call it plain old nirvana or awareness or something if it is that... i feel somehow what i am writing is somehow cocky with my new found confidence.., so apoligies if that is the case, but that sense of clarity is what i have gained, so seems natural to write like i am
I'll leave all of that for Daniel to comment on if he wishes to do so.
Matthew Moore:
it would be reasonalbe to think any pathways would make you more conducive, be this the point or not. maybe even the relative discomfort of inight is enough to signal a change, maybe you have to feel it..(seems common that arahatship turns to Bodhisattvahood) then all angles are worth going for, as on the other side of the coin of 'just stop meditating and question your experience' could be 'spend a few years going round in circles in your head and not doing worthwile practise' (though could also lead to something more spontanious, i have no official figures on these things..)
I can't really figure out what you're saying here...care to elaborate?
Matthew Moore:
thats all really, thanks trent for the a couple of nudges, bruno, keep the faith whatever you do.. people seem to jump on you for trying to reign daniel a bit, but as he appears a little involved theoretically with the AF movement and adopting AF terms, well i guess that is just what he is doing, but it does seem odd in places and maybe he needs to be reigned in someway if this just just fall into buddism, just not the exact model he was master of, though im not aware of of his latest positiuon on it. .. its bog standard buddha awakening i proppose.. (also it even feels a little like we have to say 'i' instead of i or 'you' instead of you. it feels a little pedantic to me, that is spock speak as you put it bruno, haha)
Well...no problem. Though I wonder where exactly you were nudged to and by what specifically.
Matthew Moore:
i dont know, personally i didnt ever feel like insight was a that much of a race or become a bit envious when my friend told me she had attained a path. this doesnt relaly seem too unusual though my insight dabbles were quite lame and i cant say if i got deeper in it wouldnt have come about somehow, i have no clue, all i really did was mind muddle with a few decent sessions of observing the chaning of my breath. within the 'hardcore' dharma movement ive heard people say, yeah i felt envious when this guy or that guy got a certain path, this could be reletively common throughout the tradition and just isnt verbalised, i dont want to assume anybodys underlying things. but its just there seems to be a slight link between AF and the going for it all guns blazing and beating your friends to it type thing. i just percive a loose connection. there could be a tendancy for some people to more likely find this a new phenominon, be on that leading wave, and take the advice from an angle that claims to undermine a lot of traditional buddhism,
What exactly is this "slight link?" Could you elaborate? Is this related to the ebullient gusto AF aspirants often seem to suddenly stumble into?
Matthew Moore:
the information appears to be all over the place in the buddhist tradition, i only worked all this out from really looking at it properly.. i cant really understand how it could all be overlooked at the expense of the richards website.
Alright...and what if it only appears to be that way? What then?
Matthew Moore:
all in all feels like no tradition should be discounted, the discounting attitude could be the block. actual freedom shouldnt be discounted, just put into context, it doesnt have to be religious and dogmatic to fit into some buddhist traditions, which is what i had a hunch about in my first post, if you prefer nothing to do with any kind of organised religion type thing , check out jeff fosters site about non dual awareness. you can see he's a chirpy guy has some decent web design going on.
And what if not discounting those traditions is actually the block? What then?
Matthew Moore:
ok, this might be nonsese, if it makes sense to you cool, if it is the ramblings of a madman, then at least it documents that. if this actual freedom thing is some kind of, oh yes that is what you were supposed to realise thing, they you got me, but again i feel it was just an incedental part. it doesnt follow much logic to me that the actual freedom movement is presenting anything new, the downgrading of the tranditional buddhist thing just seems a bit daft. especially as it throws a bizarre curveball and unsettles everyone in its claims to newness...
I am not pointing these things out to offend you in any way, by the way...but do you see how you have done the following?
In this paragraph you have alluded to or outright admitted to: possibly being insensible (might be nonsense), mad (the ramblings of a madman), out of control (feel it was just ... incidental), defensive of buddhism in general as you perceive it to be threatened, suspecting that it is unsettling to those you identify with, and unsettling to you due to its newness to you.
Perhaps, and I can only suggest, you should take a step back from this, take a nice big deep breath, then perhaps dive in again when you're ready to read with refreshed, unclouded eyes.
Best,
Trent