mico mico:
tarin greco:
the practice of noting is the practice of noticing a particular process, namely, that of the arising of an object and the knowing of it, and the passing of the object and the knowing of it.
there isn't anything else; there isn't 'that which is aware'; there isn't a mind that is either 'embedded' or 'disembedded' in this process. there is this process, full stop
Whereas in the hurricane ranch discussion you say 'the sensations of self, through mystical disembedding, dissociation, whichever whatever, can be seen to be.."
the entire quote, which regards the actualism method, is as follows (with additional clarification in brackets):
''all right, well, first off, you can't really go about this by thinking of it as a means to eliminate emotion, this isn't that. the elimination of emotions happens as a necessary result, a necessary consequence, to
the elimination of being/of this feeling of presence/of this sense of 'i'/of subject, which, through insight practice, through mystical dis-embedding, dissociating, whichever whatever, becomes just part of the sensate field and is no more and no less [a part of that field] than any sensation of anything else. this [, the actualism method,] actually causes the binding which causes that very sense of there even being a self in any way, shape, or form ... that [very sense that] is felt to be one - it causes that to simply vanish.'
in that discussion with daniel ingram, recorded in august of last year, i was contrasting the practice of actualism with the conflated category of vipassana practices for the sole purpose of drawing a difference in the overall results that i (and by their descriptions and accounts, that any others with whom i was acquainted) had found from those practices. for that purpose, it was not necessary to distinguish between the orthodoxy of the mahasi method, the re-presentation offered by daniel ingram, or the interpolation offered by kenneth folk (which is where the notion of 'dis-embedding' gets introduced).
going strictly by the mahasi method, whatever feeling of presence or sense of 'i' or subject is noticed is to be taken as an object and noticed to pass (along with the mind-consciousness noticing it) ... as is done with anything else which is noticed. now, whether this method can or does lead to the permanent cessation of such feeling or sense of presence given the appropriate intent is an open question, and one which i am willing to entertain in discussion so long as there is an actual practitioner practically attempting to answer that question/do the entertaining; however, that question is another matter entirely (from what has been so far discussed in this thread) and does not pertain to the fact that nowhere, in either mahasi's literature or the practice of the method, is anything taken to exist other than objects and the consciousnessnes of them (and this goes for supramundane objects as well[1]) ... which is what the quote from earlier in this thread[2] that you were contrasting the hurricane ranch discussion quote against[3] was about.
mico mico:
But anyway, can't you see what you are doing here?
if by 'here' you mean in the above quotation from my writing in this thread, yes; i am describing the practice of noting and noticing and the perspective which arises on the basis of such practice.
what are you doing here?
mico mico:
You are describing a process based on the atomic units of 'arising', 'passing', 'object' and 'knowing of it', then claiming other constructions of a different level of abstraction aren't a part of that picture; as you rightly can, it's your picture after all.
those 'other constructions of a different level of abstraction' which i have claimed are not a part of the experience afforded by the correct and exhaustive application of noting and noticing practice[4] are not a part of that experience not because i have claimed so but because they are simply not part of the experience afforded by the correct and exhaustive application of noting and noticing practice.
simply put: it doesn't matter 'whose' experience (or description) it is. i put forth that if one - anyone - does the practice as instructed thoroughly enough, their experience will be as has been described[5].
mico mico:
But you write as if you are describing reality when you are simply outlining the boundaries of your own thinking, and your refusal to conflate a structural paradigm with a procedural one (whilst ignoring the necessary atomicity of the basis of your process analysis).
and so have you written off the experiential results of the practice of noting and noticing ... as you rightly can, it's your picture after all (and so you can choose to have whatever picture you like).
myself, i'll stick with the view of it which has arisen on the basis of its practice.
mico mico:
Incidentally, in how many ways do the practice of Noting and asking HAIETMOBA intersect?
in no number of ways that can be understood by anyone who has not comprehended at least one of those two practices or that can be fruitfully explained to anyone who has not indicated a comprehension of at least one of the two exercises' consequences as well as expressed an interest in comprehending the other's.
paradigmatic analysis is the spiralling road to nowhere as far as understanding either of those practices - or their results - is concerned.
*
what i am mostly interested in is that people on the dho with whom i interact do the practice-oriented things which i value with whatever theoretical lines they have drawn in order to achieve the practical things which i value, and so i am interested in those theoretical lines only to the extent that my expressed interest may help them do those things. if there is anything you think i can do to be of assistance to you in this regard please let me know. if you are seeking something else in further correspondence, please excuse me for not participating further; i am not currently active on these forums to either socialise or engage in conceptual-only discussions.
tarin
[1] 'While fruition knowledge lasts, consciousness is absolutely set upon the cessation of formations known by the designation "Nibbana."' (practical insight meditation, bps edition p. 39)
[2]
tarin greco:
the practice of noting is the practice of noticing a particular process, namely, that of the arising of an object and the knowing of it, and the passing of the object and the knowing of it.
there isn't anything else; there isn't 'that which is aware'; there isn't a mind that is either 'embedded' or 'disembedded' in this process. there is this process, full stop.
[3]
mico mico:
Whereas in the hurricane ranch discussion you say (...)
[4] 'anything else'; ''that which is aware''; 'a mind that is either 'embedded' or 'disembedded' in this process'.
[5] to re-iterate (with slight edits): the practice of noting is the practice of noticing a particular process, namely, that of the arising of an object and the knowing of it, and the passing of the object and the knowing of it .... in the cessation of the objects noticed and the consciousness noticing them, there is no binding; in no binding, there is cessation [there and then].