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The Middle Paths (2nd and 3rd)

RE: Making it clearer

Making it clearer
Answer
7/15/13 6:36 AM
hi!, i wanted to say something about how to do it.

Preliminary work: read everything about mindfulness and noting and letting go and start practicing noting for strengthening the mindfulness and concentration simultaneously. I gave noting up after some time.

1. To attain first path, use surrender/letting go. That means don't try to do anything, just be awake and still.

Doing this have had some fruitions, at first i didn't know what they are, because expected something big but instead they were just moments what induced a satisfactory done feeling thus ended the meditation session every time when it happened.
After some time it started to feel stagnant because i didn't know how to progress fast.
I read about self and kundalini learned the chakras, i also have read taoist alchemy. Meanwhile trying to figure out what is the "Now" what everybody speaking, something like being here and now or dwelling in present moment.

Then one day while meditating i got insight of trying myself force away from the stuff what were hitting me and was annoying(like heartbeating, breathing, pulse, bugs etc). I started really a struggle inside of myself, lots of ideas started to circle like i can't run away. Started questioning who i am, seriously what makes me being here.
Then I found the feeling "what makes me here feeling/feeling what let me know to myself that i exist" I figured that i can make that feeling stronger by will and force and i can choose the intensity of it. Also noticed it made the vibrations faster.
(later i searched in google what it is and its correct name is "applying the sushumna")

2. path- i used the same applying the sushumna method and started to notice that the capacity to force it grows very fast, i liked it because it meant tangible progress. Then one day i got 2nd path, put i didn't recognized it as path, but it was something more stronger event, it has tangible afterglow..but i didn't manage to repeat it because i moved forward to next path.

3th- i continued the method of making myself more real(applying sushumna) and got 3th path, and things got more clear and happy.

Sometime between or after 2,3 path i read book, Daniel Ingram's MCTB... Then i started to think back and recognized three different very similar events and also the dark nights etc, very good book. Also thx to that book got clear what are the doors.
And got to know that there is the Nirodha samapatti. I wanted to experience it...

4th path-
i read that from that book that its removing the last knot, and its very hard to reach that far,gave me the impression that its near impossible. For me it took more time than 2nd and 3rd but i didn't had dark night that made it for me easier. Dark night disappeared after 3rd.
But the point is that using the method applying sushumna..i manage to have rock solid nirvikalpa samaphatti(8th jhana), i knew what to look for. I entered nirvana, started catching the self feeling, applying myself(sushumna) then i saw the neutral feeling(it has many names like gate, nothingness etc) and took it as object and i was on the other side of the coin, the stuff was hitting the nothingness what i was holding and it doesn't affected me the "watcher".
The other day i got to the Nirodha samapatti. And before started practice i got the inner feeling of reaching it. Its a place of solid awareness and darkness. Then after sometime thought rise by itself and i got back from there.

After having these experiences i started to contemplate what have happened. I knew before that what we are doing is that we are rediscovering ourselves what we already are and always have been, so it must be doable here and now without going in some kind of jhana or state of mind. Searched from the internet the meanings of these experiences. Nirvikalpa is basically Jiva(individual soul,atma) have a taste what it looks like to be Paramatma. And there is the total extinction but awareness remains state. I then made myself so clear as i can be, then my awareness met with the "knot" and it resolved. And it was second time(felt like it) i do it but first time wasn't enough, i suppose, to really get it.

Conclusion is: there is 3 paths because there is three groups of chakras, according to Taoism, there is lower, middle and higher dan'tians. What you are doing is leading prenatal energies to the head/higher dantians. And there comes the three unknown events. First level is you don't identify yourself with sensual things, 2nd level is you don't identify yourself with the things you need to do, actions.3rd is you don't identify yourself with the thoughts.

4th just is making the conclusion what it is to be satcitananda/god consciousness+bliss and let it happen. I have no idea what else than this could be the 4th path arahant.

you will get it fast by figuring out how to apply sushumna and force kundalini to 7th chakra- to head. When you can do apply the sushumna then possible at least within a year, disciplined meditation and contemplation and reading as much as you can(about self/who you are). from waking up to falling asleep.
Every time you stuck then ask help from inside. There is Lord who is watching you and already knowing every your move in advance and protecting you. Trust him.

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
7/16/13 2:16 PM as a reply to Rist Ei.
wanted to add effects: mental side of it.

when concentrating on the middle of the brain, it will activate pineal gland. Cracking sound is heard and blue light flashes.
first path
AP event was a some kind of altered state in dark space and i saw stuff moving towards me. When it ended i assumed that it was related to cause and effect or something like that.

second path AP event was, i was listening to the music and suddenly got into altered sate and was seeing myself as third person.
thought that it is some kind of profound stuff.

third path AP event was, i was sitting on a sauna and telephone rang and i got into altered sate of mind where ringing and me was one. Even better, i am a master.

fourth path there wasn't anything noteworthy as AP event.

Now those stuff i consider something different than AP event.
Have experienced some stuff in middle of the dream what turned out to be real happening when waking up and it still going on. First time was a intense electrical buzzing in upper chest almost painful.
Just lately on my lower back, same thing happened intense electrical buzzing.

Pastlife like experiences: stuff what you know after you have coming out of it. Like you wearing old clothes old hat and once i saw the idea of a person it had lots of information(what of course i don't remember) but it was the same feeling what felt when i saw my own idea what my mind is holding.
Visions, lucid dreams, sometimes things you see feels like real.

Then amusing is that i asked help when i really was stuck and i asked next level. Always got it.

About dark nights- third one is the worst, felt all the chakras hurting burning. Some kind of purgatory. At the same time i knew that i myself is causing this hell but i didn't know how to stop it. Of course i knew that if i would go to sleep or play games or watch movie but it isn't a solution.

What feels being done. Its like you finish university and you will get the paper and think that is it!? or when you finish all missions on gta you got that empty "is that it" feeling.

There isn't an angel or master appear before you and tell you have done it and take your hand to heaven. That sucks.

Everything is exactly the same, and rather it feels like someone else has done it not me. Also the feeling that someone has said it already.
Maybe i am deluded. Maybe mind can replicate everything.

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
7/16/13 9:56 PM as a reply to Rist Ei.
Rist Ei:


Everything is exactly the same, and rather it feels like someone else has done it not me. Also the feeling that someone has said it already.
Maybe i am deluded. Maybe mind can replicate everything.


Yes, maybe. Although Kenneth Folk assigns a lot of meaning to the "feeling of being done", others may not. I don't think Daniel's criteria for 4th path gives such meaning to that 'feeling'. There are other criteria that he talks of. Please answer the questions above.

Nick

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
7/16/13 10:39 PM as a reply to Rist Ei.
Hi Rist,

Rist Ei:
hi!, i wanted to say something about how to do it.


Since the title of this thread says "making it clearer", I hope you don't mind expanding on what you wrote.

Preliminary work: read everything about mindfulness and noting and letting go and start practicing noting for strengthening the mindfulness and concentration simultaneously. I gave noting up after some time.

1. To attain first path, use surrender/letting go. That means don't try to do anything, just be awake and still.

Doing this have had some fruitions,


What is a 'fruition' in your own words. Describe it phenomenologically please.

at first i didn't know what they are, because expected something big but instead they were just moments what induced a satisfactory done feeling thus ended the meditation session every time when it happened.

Please explain the before and after affects phenomenologically of what you are calling a 'fruition'.

After some time it started to feel stagnant because i didn't know how to progress fast.
I read about self and kundalini learned the chakras, i also have read taoist alchemy. Meanwhile trying to figure out what is the "Now" what everybody speaking, something like being here and now or dwelling in present moment.

Then one day while meditating i got insight of trying myself force away from the stuff what were hitting me and was annoying(like heartbeating, breathing, pulse, bugs etc). I started really a struggle inside of myself, lots of ideas started to circle like i can't run away. Started questioning who i am, seriously what makes me being here.
Then I found the feeling "what makes me here feeling/feeling what let me know to myself that i exist" I figured that i can make that feeling stronger by will and force and i can choose the intensity of it. Also noticed it made the vibrations faster.
(later i searched in google what it is and its correct name is "applying the sushumna").


Can you provide a link to this practice please.

2. path- i used the same applying the sushumna method and started to notice that the capacity to force it grows very fast, i liked it because it meant tangible progress. Then one day i got 2nd path, put i didn't recognized it as path, but it was something more stronger event, it has tangible afterglow..but i didn't manage to repeat it because i moved forward to next path.

What changed after what you are calling '2nd path'? What was the perceptual baseline like? What is absent? What has arisen? What seems different?


3th- i continued the method of making myself more real(applying sushumna) and got 3th path, and things got more clear and happy.


Please answer the same questions as above for what you are calling '3rd path'.

Sometime between or after 2,3 path i read book, Daniel Ingram's MCTB... Then i started to think back and recognized three different very similar events and also the dark nights etc, very good book. Also thx to that book got clear what are the doors.
And got to know that there is the Nirodha samapatti. I wanted to experience it...


What is the experience of 'nirodha samapatti' in your own words?


4th path-
i read that from that book that its removing the last knot, and its very hard to reach that far,gave me the impression that its near impossible. For me it took more time than 2nd and 3rd but i didn't had dark night that made it for me easier. Dark night disappeared after 3rd.
But the point is that using the method applying sushumna..i manage to have rock solid nirvikalpa samaphatti(8th jhana),



Any links where it says this nirvikalpa samaphatti is the same as 8th jhana? Also please provide a phenomenological desctiption of what you are calling the '8th jhana'.


i knew what to look for. I entered nirvana,



What is 'nirvana' in your own experience phenomenoligically? Please give a detailed description of what you are calling 'nirvana'.


started catching the self feeling,


where you 'catching the self feeling' while in what you are calling 'nirvana'?

applying myself(sushumna) then i saw the neutral feeling(it has many names like gate, nothingness etc)


What do you mean by 'nothingness'? As in the 7th jhana experience?

and took it as object and i was on the other side of the coin, the stuff was hitting the nothingness what i was holding and it doesn't affected me the "watcher".



This is all still happening while in what you are calling 'nirvana'?


The other day i got to the Nirodha samapatti. And before started practice i got the inner feeling of reaching it. Its a place of solid awareness and darkness. Then after sometime thought rise by itself and i got back from there.

Again, what is 'nirodha samapatti' in your own experience? Please provide phenomenological descriptions.

After having these experiences i started to contemplate what have happened. I knew before that what we are doing is that we are rediscovering ourselves what we already are and always have been, so it must be doable here and now without going in some kind of jhana or state of mind. Searched from the internet the meanings of these experiences. Nirvikalpa is basically Jiva(individual soul,atma) have a taste what it looks like to be Paramatma. And there is the total extinction but awareness remains state. I then made myself so clear as i can be, then my awareness met with the "knot" and it resolved. And it was second time(felt like it) i do it but first time wasn't enough, i suppose, to really get it.


Please give a description of what you mean by 'knot'. How did it resolve phenomenologically?

Conclusion is: there is 3 paths because there is three groups of chakras, according to Taoism, there is lower, middle and higher dan'tians. What you are doing is leading prenatal energies to the head/higher dantians. And there comes the three unknown events. First level is you don't identify yourself with sensual things, 2nd level is you don't identify yourself with the things you need to do, actions.3rd is you don't identify yourself with the thoughts.


The conclusion is all yours, but there is little to go on for readers at the DhO. It's all experiences you called this and that term without giving phenomenological descriptions which is the norm here at the DhO. Could you give some more details into what you are calling '3 paths'. How does one practice each of what you are calling 'path'?

4th just is making the conclusion what it is to be satcitananda/god consciousness+bliss and let it happen. I have no idea what else than this could be the 4th path arahant.


Can you provide links to where 'satcitananda/god consciousness etc' is the same as what you are calling '4th poath arahant'.

you will get it fast by figuring out how to apply sushumna and force kundalini to 7th chakra- to head. When you can do apply the sushumna then possible at least within a year, disciplined meditation and contemplation and reading as much as you can(about self/who you are). from waking up to falling asleep.
Every time you stuck then ask help from inside. There is Lord who is watching you and already knowing every your move in advance and protecting you. Trust him.


Can you provide an in depth description of 'applying sushumna' and 'forcing kundlini to the 7th chakra'? Who is this 'lord' watching over 'you'?

I generally call bullshit on people's claims when there is an absence or avoidance of detailed phenomenological descriptions and just high terms attached to supposed experiences. I hope you can provide such things. I think it best to avoid allowing yogis at the DhO blindly accepting someone's unproven authority based on very little. You have assigned high terms for this and that experience. How do we know you are talking about the same thing as other yogis here? We don't yet.

Sincerely

Nick

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
7/17/13 7:33 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
"What is a 'fruition' in your own words. Describe it phenomenologically please."

lying on my back on my bed, i am aware, i hold my self aware, it rather is a bringing myself aware,
then there is an event of mind starting to enter somewhere feeling, feels like losing the mind. Long time i tried to deepen it go with it, investigate it. It gave satisfactory feeling what faded pretty quick, i guessed then that it is entrance to myself, so i wanted to induce it more and go with it but the event was always the same no matter what i did.

i didn't know what it is. I read from book about fruitition and path moment. Letting go of the rope, fire goes out, going to the other side of the shore.
To me it is like bursting the bubble. Like some kind of release.

I tell that i don't have my words, all words are learned. We experience something and there is words invented for it and the words are learnt from others.

After effects faded in minutes or even faster if i remember correctly. The side effect from meditation itself was shadowing it all and also my desire to experience it all at one sit clouded all.

i have a guess what fruition is. It is a Nirodha(cessation of everything(mind)) between two thoughts of mind. The meditation method Vippassana is for keeping us awake. If you can keep yourself awake by yourself without any method then you don't have to use method. If we are aware normally then actually we rest on something but we need to bring ourselves constantly(renew ourselves to stay awake).
By luck then if we manage to stay aware enough, it happens.

That means fruition is an event what I witness how my mind is destroyed. It feels good.

"Can you provide a link to this practice please."

I got the method by insight, by asking help inside. I learned to do it correctly, with best efficacy. I felt that the energies started to grow, the ability to induce more power grows literally everyday.

i didn't have the words to explain it what it is, so i gave my best to describe it and put the describtion to google searched and i ended at the end to a page "https://sites.google.com/site/swamiramateachings/swami-rama-sushumna"

i read it, there talked about opening the central channel, balancing ida and pingala. I discovered already before that i could make my breath from one nose and then change it and also balance.

for additional material according to taoism this is a union of dragon and tiger. Applying sushumna is imho same to taoism alchemy inner breathing(when you google "inner breathing" you end up with bs knowledge, its not it), what started from heels. And exactly that it felt when you do it. Its very powerful and they don't lie about this. Its about bringing prenatal energies to the channels and will purify them, if there is a block then it cause some kind of effect, like involuntary muscle movements and more.

"What changed after what you are calling '2nd path'? What was the perceptual baseline like? What is absent? What has arisen? What seems different?"

I noticed immediately after the release(fruition), power. First time encountered the hissssing sound what seemed to go deeper when holding it but i scared of, i remember that even next day i started to fall somewhere feeling with the hissing sound.
The perceptual field was "pumping back and forth(if i remember correctly)" i got up and everything normal again- was high on meditation energies all the time, can't tell the difference.

I didn't notice nothing absent or any change fundamentally, only thinking more about the event what it was. Mood rise coming from the progress i make.

Please answer the same questions as above for what you are calling '3rd path'.

exactly the same but more powerful, the field what was "pumping". Don't remember exactly. Redish brownish sky where i was in. I remember i could hold the wave and go with it but i didn't hold. I was on that sky for some time then i ended it.

Ok i now remember the going in too. Awareness meets with the thing what he is holding and lets go of it. And exactly same thing with the 2nd path but with 3rd path its obvious and clear.

it also written in the book MCTB too. Was really happy when reading this.

The same thing(but opposite) is with the Nirvikalpa samadhi but instead of letting go, there will arise the "neutral thing" i will grab it.

What is the experience of 'nirodha samapatti' in your own words?

darkness with awareness. Was first impression. Now i have also some knowledge/ideas what it was. External energies: there is ovum and there is sperm. Ovum is waiting in a pure matter, then comes a sperm with the codes and impregnates the ovum.

Nirodha samaphatti is awareness of prenatal energies, there is nothing else. Then rises thought and your mind will born. Conscious death and birth in inner level.

What literally ends the story. It should answer every question about the paths. Nirodha sapaphatti is a end to it.

Any links where it says this nirvikalpa samaphatti is the same as 8th jhana? Also please provide a phenomenological desctiption of what you are calling the '8th jhana'.

i need to back off with this one, i don't make any difference. i clear my mind 5th jhana, i start forcing myself(applying sushumna) 6th jhana, then there is some kind of change to more clear i take it as 7th and then nothingness rises i grab it, its 8th. I am watching while it happens i wait till the nothingness appears.

i have read things about jhanas and samadhis, i haven't mastered them. Nor i haven't tried four first jhanas at all.

8th jhana is you hold the nothingness, i still see the "vibrations"(things what is hitting it), but if i hold my awareness more on that thing perception started to go dark and disappear so i quit again.

i have sometimes doubts that i have experienced 8th jhana..

What is 'nirvana' in your own experience phenomenoligically? Please give a detailed description of what you are calling 'nirvana'.

nirvana for me is a state where i am being aware. It is being in the present moment not dependent on mind. Imho mind ends.
What i then experience is pure energies, they are rising from down and flowing to brain massasing it what feels good.

where you 'catching the self feeling' while in what you are calling 'nirvana'?

self feeling what makes you. Nirvana is not a state where you are freezed or solid, i will give up the thought in mind and immediately energies start to flow and these energies are self energies you can make it stronger by your own will.
I can live inside me. I can think. You can do anything without taking it as object then technically it is possible to be in nirvana all the time when awake.

What do you mean by 'nothingness'? As in the 7th jhana experience?

nothingness is a thing what appears while i do my practice.

This is all still happening while in what you are calling 'nirvana'?

in my own terms yes, because i am not grabbing(clinging) to anything till nothingness arises then i grab or cling to nothingness. It(nothingness) is the fruit and i saw it and reaped it.

Please give a description of what you mean by 'knot'. How did it resolve phenomenologically?

knot is a word what i adopted from Daniels book. Also have seen it elsewhere basically in the same subject but there is described it knot as all the path moments. "http://swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-5.htm"

resolving the knot means that i see that i hold idea in mind and i give it up, by myself. It just disappears.
This act represents probably my free will that i now started to serve Lord again.

The conclusion is all yours, but there is little to go on for readers at the DhO. It's all experiences you called this and that term without giving phenomenological descriptions which is the norm here at the DhO. Could you give some more details into what you are calling '3 paths'. How does one practice each of what you are calling 'path'?

no i can't. Do you want to know the circles and vibrations context?
I know there is different feelings while sitting everything changes. I don't know.
I have followed the circles step by step and trying to identify where i am. What i concluded is it is watching your progress in slow motion. I meditated 6 hours and i ended up in a field where there where only same lights vibrating in same speed, everything was the same, i didn't noticed anything else, even not a body.

Can you provide an in depth description of 'applying sushumna' and 'forcing kundlini to the 7th chakra'? Who is this 'lord' watching over 'you'?


if you google about applying sushumna you will get little to no information. It's self energies and that's all. You will figure out what makes you feel real. What makes you feel that you exist.
Applying sushumna is balancing left and right channel to become aware of middle channel and then you can force your self energies through it.

Lord is the one who created us. We are the ones who decided to abandon him and experience life our own, so he created material(mind) worlds. I wrote about this on the other post in this web.

I generally call bullshit on people's claims when there is an absence or avoidance of detailed phenomenological descriptions and just high terms attached to supposed experiences. I hope you can provide such things. I think it best to avoid allowing yogis at the DhO blindly accepting someone's unproven authority based on very little. You have assigned high terms for this and that experience. How do we know you are talking about the same thing as other yogis here? We don't yet.

I gave up watching phenomena, i can't do it, i need to build attitude to watch and concentrate on things and that is slow level way of doing things. What i try to do is to be myself.

i understand suffering, impermanence and no self. But i understand why i need to keep track of the phenomena.

i gave a description.

in two words nirvana and making myself more real, bringing myself nearer to the phenomenal world.

what effects it will produce: lots of pressure in the head, involuntary muscle movements. These things happen because of new energy entering the system.

i know that vippassana is about watching phenomena how they are interacting with mind. I have read around 30 books about mindfulness and vippassana. Honestly i don't remember anything much. All i wanted to know how to be mindful and where i am with my progress. Real usage of the knowledge from books are that you know you are on a path, and know to avoid every effect.

I contemplated on self constantly, trying to figure it out. I discovered that understanding is one thing and it applies to everything, every time i did progress my understanding switched to new and that new switched to new and the progress is still going on.
Understanding is prana wisdom, that what i am cultivating. That it caused to burst three bubbles is only a start for something else.

i leave myself an ability to correct the mistakes. I claim that it is possible to do it in a year to a level of no identification with three modes of nature(mind). If preliminary work isn't included. With a "method" of finding yourself and leading yourself higher.

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
7/18/13 1:30 PM as a reply to Rist Ei.
I apology of my bad arrogant wording and boasting.

It is one of the many ways to do it. It serves me the best with my inner desire, personality and understanding. Everyone finds their own at the end.

Thank you for reading!

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
7/20/13 7:24 AM as a reply to Rist Ei.
samadhi and jhana

http://www.kktanhp.com/spiritual_practices.htm

1) The Hindu equivalent here is Salvikalpa Samadhi where one’s Self-awareness must be maintained by dint of effort. As long as Self-awareness is held on with effort, one is with realty. When Self-attention wavers, Self-awareness is obscured. The possible equivalent of concentration meditation to Salvikalpa Samadhi is up to the 2nd Jhana (absorption)
.
2) Kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. In this state there is no body-consciousness, and there is a temporary awareness of Self or Presence without effort. As the individual is like a block of wood, the senses and the body are not functioning. This is a temporary erasure of the ego, and is the penultimate stage before enlightenment. Once out of meditation, the ego returns. That means he cannot hold on to realty or Presence permanently. This stage is equivalent to the 3rd to the 8th. Jhana.

3) Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. Sahaja means ‘natural’ and nirvikalpa means ‘no differences’. He is now an enlightened psychosomatic organism (jnani). Having destroyed the ego permanently, he sees no difference between himself and others and the rest of the world. He can function normally in the world with only the working mind, as the thinking mind is eliminated. He is now in the world but not of it. He also realises that every manifested thing arises from the Unmanifested. This state cannot be achieved with concentration alone. One must practise a method that will return one to its pure personal consciousness. This Being or Presence can then return to impersonal Consciousness, which is part of the Unmanifested Cosmic Consciousness. This stage can only be reached when there is silence, stillness and emptiness of thoughts. That means another technique must be used, e.g. Insight meditation.


If attain 8th full solid jhana, then investigate that state and then compare it with your regular/ordinary state then see what is the difference between these two states and remove the difference (Its the thing what you are holding all the time).

Imho anagami level is required before, to attain Nirvikalpa samadhi(8th jhana). Self energies led to head.

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
8/21/13 1:52 AM as a reply to Rist Ei.
Wanted to say that it didn't sticked, i fell back. I know it because i once again removed the block and reached the head area(around 6th chakra i believe) and saw exactly what is to be stuck lower and advance higher. I have done it at least 3-4 times and it haven't been permanent.

Now i know it is possible to go higher by force or by practice but it isn't the end. When reaching higher the mind may not yet sufficently purified to keep new level as base.

Everytime i do this its getting more clear and obvious.

I think the urge to teach comes from the blocks in between throat area and head area. Because when you move to head area then you see that there is no point to teach more than saying to just "stay aware". Lower stages never understands the higher stages. Also it is easy to think oneself to be higher stage when actually being in lower stage because of one can relate to everything, he never understands what is to actually be higher level.

Probably every method works as long when you are aware. By doing it the awarness is getting more refined and it will notice the block.

It gets easier and easier to reach head area. The perception changes instantly. Its not objective change its more like subjective change just like getting wiser and more mature or something like that.

RE: Making it clearer
Answer
4/25/14 9:15 AM as a reply to Rist Ei.
update or correction.

what i now gather is that this was 3rd chakra opening. This is 2nd path not even 3rd.