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The Middle Paths (2nd and 3rd)

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 11:50 AM
I was inspired by Tom Tom's practise thread.
It seems to be getting hijacked a bit and I also want to jump in and chat about his practise....but I feel that since I am not fourth path that anything I say will just be more hijacking stuff....So here is a solution that lets me yammer on and not feel bad.

There are very few 3rd path to 4th path theads on the Dho. I would be very interested in what people are doing to get to 4th.

Tom Tom, what are you doing in what order and for how long...On cushion and off cushion? ( I realized I have been pretty lax with myself across the board compared to earlier paths esp. concentration exercises)
Tom Tom:
Most of my investigation during sits has been going toward investigation of the sensations in and around the neck and the subtle dualities between these and thoughts.  The main investigation has been the impermanence of these sensations, but a few sits have gone towards the unsatisfactory (dukkha) nature of them.  

Analysis off cushion has been toward a continuous dissection of agency.  A subtle sense of agency seems to be all that is left, and as I have stated, I experience no sense of time.

Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention. Investigation of neck sensations has been a priority, but this does not seem to exclude the other sensations much. There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

I've noticed that a lack of attention does not seem to mean I lack the ability to tune things out if I'm not listening.  For example, if I'm reading and people are talking I won't always know what they're saying since the focus is on what I'm reading and not what the people are saying.  I've been looking at this, and strangely, I tend to hear some jumble of sounds but it is not processed in a way that makes it understandable if the "focus" is on something else.  Whether this constitutes some form of attention or not I'm not sure.

A kick to the left-over sense of agency is my top priority and since sitting I have noticed some significant diminishment in agency when not on the cushion.  I'm still not where I want to be in terms of a 100% lack of agency, but I seem to be getting closer (quantitatively, it's currently at about 85%).   To what extent some remaining sense of attention may be creating some small sense of agency is also a consideration and is an additional thing I'll be analyzing in future sits.

The Attention thing is interesting, as is Focus, Choosing etc....they all seem to combine to create the illusion of agency. I have been playing with focus of the eyes trying to stay in panoramic mode without a focal point as my off the cushion practice. On the cushion I have been playing with noticing sensations and whether there is an internal quality or external quality to them. I think there is some spacial relational aspect that creates some of the agency...lets say that at 3rd path the sense of self in space goes away but what about all the external "objects" that are still in reference to where this hollowed out circle is? I am trying to vipassanaize this internal/external duality.I notice what my eyes are doing when I move back and forth...they try to change focus which I find strange especially when I move back and forth between the Nada sound and an external sound...I also move from thoughts to external objects....I have not tried to find permanent objects and dissolve them....interesting...
Gotta go meditate....hope you don't mind me starting this thread.
Good luck
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 12:49 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Isn't non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as "anatta" as panoramic mode?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 2:36 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Isn't non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as "anatta" as panoramic mode?

Is this a question?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 2:46 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice. 

One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.

The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed. 

Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana's everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 3:22 PM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice. 

One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.

The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed. 

Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana's everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..
Thanks T DC for your straight forward approach of just noting sensations...have continued to note things but changed from 6 senses to proprioception spacial relational sensations/thoughts since second path.
The Nanas cycles are doing thier own thing in the background mostly with DN kicking me for a couple minutes to hours where they seem very in my face misery but nothing like in the past.  I sometimes get up to 4 cessations in a sit....sometimes none...they are not blissful afterwards and very much like a little blip and some clarity.
I practice at the gym every day with a ton of noise...been doing that for years...lately Ive noticed that the disturbing noises have a outside and inside quality to them.
I have been decoupling my concentration practice from my loving kindness practice and trying to get much more concentrated....I also have been practising concentration every night to fall asleep and naps...been doing that for years....If I wake up from a nap I am usually vibrating very hard in third jhana.
Thanks for the input,
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 2:20 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold (as actively 'letting go' is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen's 'Do Nothing' practice?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 3:01 PM as a reply to Russell ..
Russell .:
Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold (as actively 'letting go' is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen's 'Do Nothing' practice?
I have gotten a lot of this advice. Can you go into detail of what I actually should do?
Should I sit?
If so why?
What should I do while sitting?
How long should the sits be?
How often?
What should I do off the cushion?
If something, why?

I am really curious on what others have done/not done and what those results were.
I am quite frustrated in the lack of good advice after second path. I can't even really get some good old honest "I have no idea what I did"
I have explained exactly what I did to get third path and the results here - Looking for help getting to 3rd path
Now I am putting out there the things I am doing in an attempt to land 4th. There are very few threads that discuss this stuff and NONE seem to have people revisiting threads to update what happened....this "got mine" see ya later attitude sucks...{venting and ranting mode off}
Please help by answering if you would be so kind.
Thanks a bunch....team sport dharma
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 3:45 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Russell .:
nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold

The Last Step - Practice Log
Daniel Ingram:
simply went brutally for the heart of the thing using a very simple assumption: if no sensation is allowed to ever arise and vanish again without clear comprehension of the Three Characteristics of it, including everything that seemed to be left in that maddening little space warp, then eventually the last illusion will fall. This proved to be the case.

So here are two extremes... the "letting go process unfolding" and the "Brute force" method.
I wonder if there is a middle path to these approaches....I am exploring this idea. Is there a precursor to agentlessness that can be seen clearly and vipassanaized/noted?
A while back I had a 5 minute preveiw of some state...possibly 4th. The predominate shift was that everything was just where is was, stresslessly. Was there an agent? I didn't even look...it didn't occur to me to even try...I was just enjoying everthing being so absolutely ordinarily.
So things are not "just where they are" anymore....so I am investigating this....what makes things locationally where they are? what spacial relationship do they have to each other and to the "center"....
Can I see it clear enought to "let go" again? We shall see (pun intended)
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 5:06 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
I've been thinking pretty much exactly what's written in this thread. I may be fooling myself in thinking I'm in anagami territory, though.

This part of the Hurricane Ranch talk might help
KF: Yes. It’s karma-sila. I feel like we’re gonna have to wrap this pretty soon, because I’m getting very tired, but there’s one thing I’d like to touch upon before we close. We’ve talked about license. And earlier, Tarin and I talked about permission. Giving yourself permission to be enlightened wouldn’t be possible to overestimate how important that is.
DI: Or even to concentrate. Or even to engage energy.
KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’regonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.

I have the same questions as you, so,
http://i.imgur.com/RvbgtzE.jpg

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 5:48 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
KF: Yes. It’s karma-sila. I feel like we’re gonna have to wrap this pretty soon, because I’m getting very tired, but there’s one thing I’d like to touch upon before we close. We’ve talked about license. And earlier, Tarin and I talked about permission. Giving yourself permission to be enlightened wouldn’t be possible to overestimate how important that is.
DI: Or even to concentrate. Or even to engage energy. 
KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’regonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.


I'm going to have to disagree with Kenneth on this one.  Why is 4th path so special that this applies to 4th, but not to any other path?  Would you say that stream-entry is reaching high equanimity and getting conformity, change of lineage, path, and then fruition or would you say stream-entry is when you "give yourself permission" to be a stream-enterer.  I'm going to go with the former.  However, this doesn't exclude the possibility that "giving yourself permission" might cause the former to happen.

Kenneth is coming from a different perspective where he sought enlightenment to the exclusion of everything else for over 20 years.  His model of what 4th path is is different than Daniel's.  In my thread that inspired this thread I specifically wrote that I was describing what 4th path is according to Daniel Ingram's criteria.  A 100% lack of all agency is not a defining criteria for 4th path according to Kenneth Folk   Kenneth Folk places the end of agency at a stage much farther along than what he calls "4th path." I feel that I more than meet Kenneth's 4th path criteria, and have for several years now.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 5:56 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I would think that giving yourself permission has to happen at every path. Of course, high EQ is the ideal time to give yourself permission. At the very least, if one doesn't believe they will get a path (unconsciously or consciously) I highly doubt they'll get it.

I don't think Kenneth was implying that giving yourself permission is a sufficient condition. I think he was implying that it's a necessary condition. I'm sure he would agree that one should have their developmental ducks in a row. And, clearly, after 20 years of developmental meditation Kenneth did.
A 100% lack of all agency is not a defining criteria for 4th path according to Kenneth Folk   Kenneth Folk places the end of agency at a stage much farther along than what he calls "4th path."
Source for this?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 6:21 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
I think he was implying that it's a necessary condition.


Probably not necessary, but helpful, yes.

Source for this?


This is directly quoted from Kenneth's Folk's previous website.  End of agency (or "crushing blow" to agency) occurs at stage 8 whereas 4th path occurs at stage 5.

Enlightenment is not binary (as in “you either have it or you don’t), but exists on a continuum from totally clueless on one end of the spectrum to full and complete enlightenment on the other. Every person on Earth can be plotted at some point on this continuum at some particular point in time. The hope is that one moves further and further along the scale throughout his or her life. Below is a 9 stage map of this developmental process. The model is a work in progress; I will add more detail and update it as I learn more, including adding additional levels if necessary. I am publishing it now in the hope that meditators will find it useful in their own practice and in helping others to awaken. There are some obvious flaws in this kind of map, not least of which is that in order to make sense of it, one must have a solid working knowledge of Theravada Buddhist concepts including the Progress of Insight, jhana, and nirodha samapatti. I apologize for these shortcomings and welcome feedback on how to make the map more accessible across traditions without losing the high level of resolution included here.

Stage 1 (sometimes called KF1 for convenience and to distinguish from similar stage maps): The 4th Insight Knowledge, Arising and Passing away of Phenomena, aka A&P. Read about the first five Insight Knowledges here. How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this. It usually takes just a few weeks of weekly Skype coaching or several days in intensive retreat. I’ve guided dozens of students to this stage and many of my students already have it by the time they contact me. This is the point at which someone is well and truly bitten by the meditation bug.

Stage 2: Stream Entry. Practitioner has completed all 16 Insight Knowledges. (Mahasi 1st Path) Read about the Insight Knowledges 5-10 here. (Follow the link at the bottom of the page for Insight Knowledges 11-16.) There are inaccuracies in this essay and places where my current understanding no longer matches what I wrote there, but in the interest of getting this all in one place, I’ll save the revisions for later. How common is stream entry? I expect all my students to attain this stage and they nearly always do. I’ve seen dozens of students get this far.

Stage 3: Practioner has developed through all 16 Insight Knowledges for a second time. (Mahasi 2nd Path). How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this stage and they almost always do if they stick with the program. Anyone who has attained KF2 has all the tools necessary to attain KF3. It’s just a matter of continuing on with regular, targeted practice.

Stage 4: Practioner has access to the Pure Land jhanas and Nirodha Samapatti. (One interpretation of Mahasi 3rd Path) Here is a fascinating insight map from the Theravada, based on the 31 Realms of Existence. Notice numbers 23-27, which are said to only be available to 3rd Path practitioners and beyond. These are the Pure Land jhanas. The “Pure Land jhanas” terminology is my own invention; I first accessed “PL1” by doing a Pure Land Buddhist practice of invoking the name of Amitabha Buddha, which is said to transport you instantly to the Pure Land. It worked, after a fashion, so I dubbed the experience a "Pure Land jhana." This was circa 1994, and the name has stuck. How common is this stage? Many of my students get this far, but it is not as common as the first 3 stages because it requires a greater level of concentration.

Stage 5: The tipping point. Practitioner has a profound sense of completion, as though “done is what needs to be done.” (One interpretation of the 4th Path of Enlightenment. And here is my 2010 commentary on interpretation of the 4-Path model.) The longing to be enlightened seems to have melted away. With further ripening at this stage, it will be seen that there is more to be done; the practitioner still experiences many of the old neurotic patterns, but has some distance from them. “It’s still happening, but it doesn’t seem to be happening to me,” is a common report. How common is this stage? As a rough estimate, I’ve guided 20-25 or so folks to this stage over the last 5 years. I occasionally meet someone who has come to this through some other system. At this stage, the practitioner is identified with emotional feelings rather than a conceptual self. So he or she will resist and argue with more advanced practitioners about what comes next...

Stage 6: Emotional transformation. Marked attenuation of feelings. (See Damasio’s Looking for Spinoza for the distinction between emotions and feelings. Feelings are the subjective component of emotions. Emotions can and do carry on without the corresponding feelings, as emotions and feelings happen in different parts of the brain.) Practitioner may still display full range of emotions as observed by others while reporting only contentment, well-being, acceptance, etc. This new emotional stability sets the stage for...

Stage 7: Proprioceptive selfing is seen clearly. From the platform of the emotionally stable mind, it becomes possible to see that certain sensations, especially around the face, eyes, and forehead, are sporadically signaling “this is I, me, mine.” See Metzinger’s comments about Ronald Melzac’s neuromatrix and “a kind of proprioception that is so subtle, it’s almost unconscious” (paraphrased from memory, but here is the video). When the moments of operation of this proprioceptive selfing are juxtaposed, moment by moment, with non-selfing moments, the selfing is seen as painful and the mind conditions itself to stop doing it. This proprioceptive selfing seems to operates at several layers, however, because it comes back at a subtler level, as do feelings of fear, irritation, and aversion. Here is a Youtube video in which I sketch out the first 7 stages. (At the time, I did not know there were more stages available.)

Stage 8: A deepening of the insights from stages 6 and 7, plus a crushing blow to the ownership and agency aspects of selfing. (See Metzinger, The Ego Tunnel, for more on ownership and agency as components of selfing.) Practitioner feels very “enlightened” at this point, even somewhat alien as compared to “normal” people. Lots of disorientation. At times some sense of “divine retardation,” in which practitioner feels him or herself losing interest in some things that mattered previously, while simultaneously feeling profoundly OK with these changes. Life gets simpler as unnecessary ideas and attachments slough off. Friends can drift apart if some neurotic need no longer needs to be fulfilled. Conventions and concepts soften in favor of “this is happening now.” Disorientation becomes the norm and one adapts to it. Some motivations, e.g., need for social status, need to be right, need to please others, which began to lose steam at KF5, fade further. How common is this stage? I personally know at least seven people, five of whom are my students or former students. As of this writing (April, 2012), I also consider myself to be at this stage.)

Stage 9: Edit, 26JUL2012: Hmmm... Don't know yet. Staying open to possibilities.

Kenneth Folk
May 2012



RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 6:39 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Hmm, this model looks like a mess to me. I see why Daniel keeps emotional and conventional stuff out of his models.

Has there been a public discussion about the difference between Daniel and Kenneth's 4th path criteria?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 7:43 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Droll Dedekind:
Has there been a public discussion about the difference between Daniel and Kenneth's 4th path criteria?
Yes,
If you go back to the early days of the Dho when Kenneth was on and read some of the threads there is some interesting stuff...add the levels from AEN Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment and things get really interesting in mapping systems.
Daniel attained some time pressure synchonization thingy which he has not explained whether this is 4th path or something more...I can't wait to see what updates Daniel has in MCTB 2.
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 7:58 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
If Alan Chapman writes a book with that new enlightenment model posted on Duncan's blog we'll have ourselves a real dharma showdown.

I just want offtheride-ship. KF-4th sounds fine to me

I can't find the old threads.. Anyone got a link?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 8:17 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
It might have been over on the old KFD forum...which is now here -> http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kunena-show-kfd
It would take a while to find all the relevent posts...good luck...it's been years.
try the google----> site:http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kunena-show-kfd termtosearchfor

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/30/14 12:05 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I think fourth path is a unique experience for each person as there is no special insight to be gained. For me cycles continued with an impetus to investigate and then there was a moment when I got the joke. It was like one of those lame one line jokes that you miss but after a period of time it finally clicked and the impact from the simplicity and even how corny the joke was made me laugh and laugh.

What Droll pointed out about permission as a condition may have played  into it, which is similar to how making a resolution to get a path can play an important role. After that intent seems to change as everything is how it is - perfect. The end of insight dis ease

Turning inward to investigate the sense of agency I found new clarity there is no inner place, its creation the very act of looking for it. Look inward to where, there is no location, no depth or width no boundary between inside and out, only the reflexive act. The mind (or awareness) knowing itself as an object of itself.

 Practicing AF techniques has lead to more insights after this as there are a great set of tools to discover the feeling self, that swirl of energies, passions or the movement we take as will, the reflexive mechanism we experience as life.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 6:52 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
There are very few threads that discuss this stuff and NONE seem to have people revisiting threads to update what happened....this "got mine" see ya later attitude sucks...{venting and ranting mode off}
Please help by answering if you would be so kind.
Thanks a bunch....team sport dharma
~D

Alright D, you better stick around after you get fourth.  I'll take it upon myself to pester you if you don't.  :-)

-T

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/30/14 2:26 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Tom Tom:
Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention...There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

So I took a look at attention during today's meditation. What I mean by attention is the gap when you are observing the sensations/thoughts and are not lost within then. Basic mindfulness stuff. I was not getting any sensations from awareness/attention/focus. It seemed to be very binary...either ON and I was stepped back looking at stuff or OFF and wrapped up in the stuff. I wonder if this is the super space that is holding everything else, or if this is the warp; the feeling of choosing or selecting the focus, attention.... I need to investigate this a bit, it kinda reminds me of the old shine the spotlight of attention back on itself....I guess that can't hurt to try.
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/30/14 9:18 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Tom Tom:
Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention...There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

So I took a look at attention during today's meditation. What I mean by attention is the gap when you are observing the sensations/thoughts and are not lost within then. Basic mindfulness stuff. I was not getting any sensations from awareness/attention/focus. It seemed to be very binary...either ON and I was stepped back looking at stuff or OFF and wrapped up in the stuff. I wonder if this is the super space that is holding everything else, or if this is the warp; the feeling of choosing or selecting the focus, attention.... I need to investigate this a bit, it kinda reminds me of the old shine the spotlight of attention back on itself....I guess that can't hurt to try.
~D


careful your not reifying a container that holds everything i.e. just another form of self

trying to understand whats refered to here sometimes as the attention bounce and what is happening, I think has been complicated in the discussions

On - selecting the focus or attention is just present moment awareness\knowing the present moment or bare attention
Off - when wrapped up in other stuff is reflection, reflective or reflexive knowing, mind taking itself as an object whether as feelings or thoughts giving a past or future projections
The change would be between knowing or reflective/reflexive knowing which is also tied up as the self getting in and out of the way

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
10/2/14 12:04 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
In my eyes it seems that MCTB is all about insights when there is no self. But by doing it, it denys the truth that there is self. Thats why MCTB does not penetrate into self nature what is devoid of all marks of existence and its still real and open to all the wonderful experiences and transformations.
Conceptual mind will be gone like fire when it is extinguished and whats left is selfnature or buddha nature and thats You.

Body is used to realize self nature, body is like 10 years lifespan delay copy of your mind. I used the knowledge of left and right channels and middle channel to finally realize my own essence.