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Substance Warnings and Guidelines

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Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 1:47 PM
Dear DhO Posters,

This is the stickied thread that sits at the top of a new category. It is a place to discuss the effects of substances on your practice that are not supplements and not prescribed pharmaceuticals, such as things like enthogens. It is offered in the spirit of sites like Erowid, which believe that rational discussion and a supportive community of wise practitioners helping those who choose to explore those territories will have better outcomes.

That said: be warned that this is not any advocacy for the use of any substances, and individual posters and readers take responsibility for their own choices and their legal consequences.

Further, unlicensed and ilicit substances are well known to cause dangerous consequences, including severe mental illness, dangerous behaviour and death. Any use of any substance actually entails risks, as does meditation and spiritual training.

As people are going to use substances anyway, and as some members have had experiences both good and bad that were of significant consequence to their practice, it is worth having a place to include wise and thoughtful discussion of these things. Further, as this site benefits from map and meditative theory that is generally far beyond that found elsewhere, the application of that to experiences that may have occurred while using substances has been found to have been pragmatically helpful to many posters here, as noted in those threads. Thus, despite the risks, the benefits of these discussions hopefully will help people stay sane, healthy, functional and alive.

Threads on these topics will be moderated heavily owing to the nature of this topic. Be wise, caring, and thoughtful when posting here.

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 10:38 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Howdy Daniel,
I like the idea of this sticky.  I also think that the attitude of Erowid is adult and similar to the flavour here.  ie:Be fully informed before you make decisions that affect only yourself and accept the consequences.

One point I would like to make is that Pharmaceuticals are far more dangerous than non-pharmaceutical abuse substances.  I know that's a big statement and will imediately raise hackles.  Note that I'm not implying that there are no benefits from some pharmaceuticals. 

I am assuming that they are being left our of this discussion because they are not generally though of as "mind expanding" in the sense of enthogens or that the discussion would be less focused were they to be included?  Is that correct?

Cheers

tom

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 1:30 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
There are actually three sub-categories on the category, and one of them is Pharmaceuticals, another Supplements, another is the one that has that stickied on it: Other.

I totally agree that prescribed pharmaceuticals can cause all sorts of complex side effects, but the legal issues are different.

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 3:46 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel:
I totally agree that prescribed pharmaceuticals can cause all sorts of complex side effects, but the legal issues are different.

The legal issues are different so long as the pharmaceuticals are prescribed by a licensed medical provider specifically for the person taking them; therefore, could you slightly edit the sticky to make clear that when you say "pharmaceuticals" you are talking about those lawfully prescribed for the person taking them? My neurologist has been through all kinds of crazy situations--for example, a patient stole his prescription pad and went on a controlled substance spree across three counties. My son's friends have stolen prescribed controlled substances from me. And so forth. There is a huge, huge black market of prescription drugs used recreationally, and my son and his friends tell me that these substances are the main "party" substances used and abused these days. As a licensed physician, I'm sure you get what I'm saying. 

And, yes, prescribed drugs can and do cause a myriad of harms even when prescribed conscientiously and legally, whereas certain illegal substances are only minimally risky, if at all. This is something we can discuss here.

I have a lot of personal information/learning to share about supplements, as well as SNRIs and anticonvulsants, and how they can affect bodymind states and practice, so I agree that these discussions are constructive to have.

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 4:23 PM as a reply to _.
The legal issues are still different, but I agree, there is tons of prescription drug abuse. I have days when it may be a significant portion of the reason for up to half of my patients coming to the ED one way or the other.

If you will note, in the descriptor, it states prescribed pharmaceuticals.

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 5:51 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel:
If you will note, in the descriptor, it states prescribed pharmaceuticals.

Yes, I know it does. But it doesn't say for whom. So this is the same as just saying "prescription drugs," with no implication that we are talking about use of legit medication for legit conditions in that subsection. 

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 2:03 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I think it's important to point out that entheogens, though they are used in certain spiritual traditions, are unnecessary for progress along the path of insight (and all other axes of development that I know of). Most Westerners have easy access to a wide variety of teachings and techniques from a wide variety of wisdom traditions where entheogens play no roles.

The progress of insight, the concentration states, and experiences of the powers are crazy enough without entheogens. 

Disclaimer: my only experiences involve opiates. Not recommended

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 2:40 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Well, true in ways and not true in others.

I agree: I know of no wisdom that has come to anyone from opiates beyond those things related to opiates themselves, namely that they control pain, are constipating, sedating and very addictive, can make people vomit, cause rashes, rapidly induce tolerance, may amplify the perception of pain once tolerance has set in, have a nasty withdrawal period, and have other downsides.

As to entheogens, the purist in me would like a world where people simply did clean meditative practices, attained to wisdom and a range of attention-control competencies on thier own power, and that was that. Then we have the real world...

In the real world, loads of people do entheogens, and some get wisdom from them. Others freak out on them. Some just have strange or interesting experiences. Some have serious side effects. Most don't. A few end up in jail, psychotic or dead. I know a guy who spent 25 years in prison after he killed his girlfriend while high on acid in the 1970's when he found her in bed with his best friend. I had a friend in junior high school who dropped his first hit of acid and came down 3 months later and was never really the same after that. I see patients who are violently psychotic in the ED from various drugs, most recently something called "i25". He required about 10 police and security people to hold him down: so don't do i25, that is my best advice.

That said, in my own life, it is entirely possible and actually very likely that, had a good friend not dropped 4 hits of acid one day and crossed the A&P, which later lead to all sorts of other relatively beneficial effects, I would have never found the meditative things that I found.

As many have noted here, there are insights that come from them, and plenty of people get into meditative territory on them that they couldn't have dreamed of until that point. Unfortunately, it is a total crap-shoot, and there is no telling if someone will get insights or have something bad happen. The risks, in my view, are definitely higher with entheogens. That said, intensive meditation practice is not necessarily safe either, as plenty here will attest. Were there not the legal stigma around these things, perhaps real science could be done to help sort this out. Until then, we have case reports of variable quality and communities to help make sense of what happens in the real world.

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 3:16 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
FWIW I think you're thinking of 25i-NBOMe. It's a research chemical that mimics LSD to an extent, and costs a fraction of the price. Most people selling 'acid' today are selling 25i or something similar. Definitely avoid and/or get a testing kit

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 3:26 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Ah, yes, that's it: 25i: bad stuff. See how a community brings clarity to these issues? ;)

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 5:57 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Yes, true LSD is these days generally not available. It is not profitable to make and sell, so it isn't.

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/8/14 12:19 PM as a reply to _.
The 25i-nBome being mistakenly taken/sold as acid is an issue in the drug community, but it is very easy to tell the difference with minimal drug knowledge. Both 25i/25c and LSD are potent enough to be put on blotters and not much else is nearly strong enough to have effects at sub-1mg doses. LSD takes like nothing or has a slight metallic taste depending on how it is produced. 25i numbs the tongue and tastes horrible. One could try a tab and simply spit it out if it tastes like 25i. But in reality, everyone should be getting thier drugs from reputable venders on the internet. Also LSD is still mass produced and very profitable. Tryptamines are wonderful substances. There is something very special and definately useful in meditation and emotional introspection about them. They have had nothing but positive influence on my life, but it is important to note that everyone reacts to drugs differently and they are not for everyone.. 

RE: Substance Warnings and Guidelines
Answer
10/6/14 4:36 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I agree: I know of no wisdom that has come to anyone from opiates beyond those things related to opiates themselves, namely that they control pain, are constipating, sedating and very addictive, can make people vomit, cause rashes, rapidly induce tolerance, may amplify the perception of pain once tolerance has set in, have a nasty withdrawal period, and have other downsides.
Oh, there's another kind of (conventional) wisdom that come with opiates. I now understand why some unfortunate people spend their entire lives chasing their next high at the expense of everything else. Which is a sad insight.

As to entheogens, the purist in me would like a world where people simply did clean meditative practices, attained to wisdom and a range of attention-control competencies on thier own power, and that was that. Then we have the real world...
Hey, me too! 
In the real world, loads of people do entheogens, and some get wisdom from them. Others freak out on them. Some just have strange or interesting experiences. Some have serious side effects. Most don't. A few end up in jail, psychotic or dead. 

I agree that we live in a world where almost everyone has taken some kind of entheogen, and one could argue that psychoactives in general have played an important part in human history and evolution for tens of thousands of years. That being said, one could make the case that entheogens cover A&P territory. I personally have never heard of anyone getting stream-entry on LSD, though I could very well be wrong, and I would like to hear about it if it has happened.

Another thing worth considering: if someone drops acid and crosses the A&P without knowing what was happening, they've got a big problem. It is true that the A&P can zap people simply going about their lives, but entheogens make it more likely to happen without meditative training.
That said, in my own life, it is entirely possible and actually very likely that, had a good friend not dropped 4 hits of acid one day and crossed the A&P, which later lead to all sorts of other relatively beneficial effects, I would have never found the meditative things that I found.
Well, true, I suppose none of us would be here if he hadn't done that. 
As many have noted here, there are insights that come from them, and plenty of people get into meditative territory on them that they couldn't have dreamed of until that point. Unfortunately, it is a total crap-shoot, and there is no telling if someone will get insights or have something bad happen. The risks, in my view, are definitely higher with entheogens. That said, intensive meditation practice is not necessarily safe either, as plenty here will attest. Were there not the legal stigma around these things, perhaps real science could be done to help sort this out. Until then, we have case reports of variable quality and communities to help make sense of what happens in the real world.

Speaking of legal stigma, I feel inclined to say that anyone posting about the use of entheogens should take the necessary steps to anonymize themselves, such as talking about "a friend of a friend" instead of themselves.

Hopefully the drug war will come to an end in the next couple of decades, but Americans have a bad habit of electing the same morons over and over...