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Claims to Attainments

Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?

Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum


In the page http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/Actual+Freedom+as+4th+Path+Experience, Chelek said that presence and so on is there at third path and is transcended at fourth path. I am curious as to your opinion on this topic, and whether you are implying people like tolle and krishnamurti were not arahats as they speak a lot about presence, being, the timeless, space, beauty, truth, etc. which you label as third path stuff. It seems hard to believe that these kind of teachers just stagnated at third path, but can that happen?


Thank you
- Martin

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
9/8/09 9:44 AM as a reply to Martin Potter.
These two helped me get to where I am. Love to hear others opinions on this.

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
9/11/09 6:17 PM as a reply to Martin Potter.
Let me say this (as the former CheleK),
Teachers can absolutely get stagnated at a certain level. More correctly, that is just where they are at and this process of awakening takes place at its own pace for each of us. The problem arises when teachers don't know where they are at in this process. Daniel speaks of this in his book very clearly. Don't know where tolle and krishnamurti are at but I find their teachings valuable and relate to what they have to say.

The point I wanted to make with third path is that there is a much more subtle sense of self (then before). This subtle self can get very absorbed in the experience of emptiness and it also has a subtle 'other' where it can in a sense hide everything it doesn't want to deal with (like feelings, thoughts, etc). So someone teaching from that point may come off as everything is love, peace, perfect, there is no thought, no anger, etc. (I plead guilty as having been one of these - luckily I don't think anyone listened to me).

The sense of emptiness is not lost at 4th but the subtle sense of self that clings to it is. And at that point one is left with simply what is – in every moment. And that includes all your habitual patterns of behaviour, every thought you ever tried to suppress and say “That's not me”, etc. and also emptiness. From that point on everything changes.

So with Richard, in his 'enlightenment phase' he speaks of “driven by a divine mission”. Only in third would there be any sense of anyone that could be 'driven by a mission'. There remains activity, there remains interest. But no one that 'has' them. In his post 'actual freedom phase' there is a sense of 'right now' a sense of this is it – there is this present moment. Everything is found here in this moment. And that is this shift that I am talking about. This is really the beginning of a whole new phase and Adam West presented a very good overview of this process over in The Anagamis Dilema thread so check that out.

I would also like to add that just because a person is at third path, or even not yet a stream winner - has nothing to do with how well they can help others on this path – provided they stay cognisant of where they are at and work from that level. I don't recommend self-assessment. How I can ever expect to assess something that by definition I have never experienced before is beyond me. There are so many good teachers and centers around these days that there is no excuse for someone not taking advantage of them.

-Chuck

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
9/11/09 7:54 PM as a reply to Chuck Kasmire.
Hi Chuck.

Great post.

Very true about stagnation, I think everyone has the experience of stagnating at various stages of their practice, why should someone teaching be any different.

That's an interesting comment you made about Richard from AF. I'll keep it in mind as I continue to practice.

On the topic of ability to help, I have read that the late Richard Rose spoke of a Law of the Ladder, where you can only help the person on the rung below you, and you can only be helped by the person on the rung above you. I have found this to be very true for me.

Here is a talk where he describes it and other laws from his book the Albigen Papers, if anyone is interested.

http://www.searchwithin.org/download/peace_of_mind_irwin.pdf

Craig