Bro, that depends on whether your using a soft & hard jhana map to describe Access Concentration in terms, of a relatively easy attainment. Or a traditional Jhana Map that describes Access Concentration, in terms of being able to sit for at least 4hrs. In B. Alan Wallace's book 'The Attention Revolution' in the Tibetan Shamata tradition, one current unnamed Yogis is described as not being in Jhana and able to sit for 7hrs without discomfort, in the Siddhi of the pliancy of the body. In this Tibetan Map, this practitioner is still in Access Concentration.
There are traditional arguments with scriptural quotes for the paths being attained without Jhana. Not to mention living cultural traditions, i.e. the Mahasi Tradition. In the Mahasi Tradition, High Equanimity is seen as a 4 to 5 hr achievement, keep in mind when I am saying High Equanimity I am using Daniel Ingram's description of Mahasi's Model that elucidates the sub nana's which are very briefly described in, 'Practical Insight Meditation' or 'Progress of Insight', one of the two at least. ( This is the
nana's link but it was down that day, so I hope this is only temporary). In that Nana Map the stage of, Equanimity Regarding Formations is divided into 4 categories or sub-nana's. And it is the the 4th sub-nana of High Equanimity, that is concentrated with pliancy of body, to a level of being able to sit for at least 4 hrs.
Some people in discussion have tried to define Access Concentration as a very low level state comparative to a General Mindfulness, i.e. being able to maintain attention without forgetfulness of the object. When using the 10 stage model of Tibetan Shamata this General Mindfulness is the 4th stage in the Jhana Map, and it is the 9th stage that is considered to be Access Concentration.
Below, I have summarised the Thai Map, which is a 'Traditional Shamata Yanika Theravada Map' from Ajahn Brahm's book, 'Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond'. This Map has also been Validated to me personally by the only Monk able to ordain in the Thai Forest Tradition in Australia, since Ajahn Brahm was disqualified from the Thai Tradition for breaking with it. They see the level of General Mindfulness that is described as Access Concentration by some people as merely an earlier stage of mindfulness, also at stage 4.
Before we look at these Shamata Yanika Maps of concentration, I would like to add a link to a Face Book site were someone describes Access Concentration and also they suggested this is the Burmese and true definition of Access Concentration. This description of Access Concentration is indicative of of what some people use to Describe AC within the Mahasi Tradition, but in my readings of Mahasi and Sayadaw U Pandita (there may be something in, 'In this Very Life') this doesn't always seem quite so definitive, and I would gladly receive some quotes that define AC from the Mahasi tradition in this way to affirm to me that they distinctly have this view!
General Mindfulness is AC and this is indicative of the kind definitions of it, within this thread and these are quotes from the thread.
What U Pandita and Ingram mean by access concentration is completely different from what Brahm and Wallace do. In the dry-insight tradition, access concentration means only being able to consistently pay attention to an object. This means, the minimum mental stability required to observe the three characteristics.
As you rise through the insight stages, reaching equanimity concerning formations, you may (if on intense retreat) be able to sit for such a long time.
Wallace and Brahm, on the other hand, want you to work on really deep levels of concentration and stability before paying attention to the three characteristics and attaining the insight stages. And that means being able to sit for such a long time regardless of the insight stage you're at.
Neem, it is one thing saying that really high on the insight path you'll be able to sit for a long time, with many jhanic qualities; it is another saying that you have to sit for a really long time for attaining access concentration. They are not the same: 1) in the dry-insight tradition, access concentration is kept to a bare minimum and is used straight away to lead you through the insight stages. (Once you get to high equanimity you will have many jhanic qualities to your experience and teachers tend to push students for really high level of effort at this stage (as a lot of people get stuck here)). 2) That is compleatly different from what Wallace is saying. He wants you to work on really hard jhanic states, which he names access concentrarion, even before any insight stage. That means sitting for four hours before mind and body, cause and effect, and so on.
Your identification of their individual and separate claims is not accurate, as they are not referring to the same thing.
Here are my notes from Ajahn Brahm book:
The 7 stages of Jhana In the Thai Shamata Yanika TraditionStage1:
Present Moment Awareness: Be here now, listen, look, feel body awareness.
Stage2:
Silent Present Moment Awareness: Bring the mind to the now, free from the past, future & elsewhere. Sense the space & silence of mind.
Stage3:
Silent Present Moment Awareness of the Breath: Spacious silent Awareness, in the now relaxing the body, starting to follow the breath. Breathing in the now calmly…Breathing out the now calmly, allow the natural breathing.
Stage4:
Full Sustained Attention on the Breath: Attentive moment to moment awareness of the in & out breath.
This is reached by letting go, relaxing into the attentive moment, not through forceful attentiveness
You do not do reach this stage the mind does. this is where the doer, the major part of one's ego, starts to disappear & unity and peace start to become present.
Stage5:
Full Sustained Attention on the Beautiful Breath: The beautiful breath is when we maintain the unity of consciousness by not interfering the breath which will begin to become subtler, smooth and peaceful. Take time to saviour the sweetness of the beautiful breath (as Piti needs to be developed). You do not do anything, if you try to do something at this stage, you will disturb the whole process, from now on the doer has to disappear. In the later stages the breath will become very subtle and eventually disappears, all that's left is the beautiful, the mind is now taking the mind as its own object.
Stage6:
The Beautiful Nimitta: When one lets go of the body, thoughts and the five senses (including awareness of the breath) so completely that only a beautiful mental sign remains. Also the Breath and Space can be a Nimitta though this is not described much in this book. Some see a white light, some a gold star, some a blue pearl, for others perception chooses to describe this in terms of a physical sensation such as intense tranquillity or ecstasy; these are not physical perceptions associated with the body or the eyes.
Qualities of the Nimitta:
1) It appears only after the meditator has been with the beautiful breath for along time.
2) It appears when the breath disappears. (Some argue this is merely the perception of the breath which has become extremely subtle others that it has stopped all together)
3) The external 5 senses are completely absent.
4) It only manifests in a silent mind.
5) Strange but powerfully attractive.
6) It is a beautiful simple object.
If the nimitta is dull or unstable, flashing and disappearing in both cases one should go back to the previous stage.
The weak nimitta is caused by not enough depth of contentment and wanting, let go of the doer and enjoy, let the mind incline where it wants, which is usually the centre of the nimitta. If no nimitta arises after the breath disappear and instead peace, space, nothingness or emptiness is left, (this is not jhana) this could be because there isn't enough piti or sukha. Within the calm-space, cultivate the contentment into delight, delight is generated by letting the energy flow into the knower, strengthening present moment awareness, which will increase bliss and then the nimitta will appear. It is possible the nimitta is a feeling nimitta, of strong bliss, but this nimitta is more difficult to gain access to jhana with (in this situation space may be associate).
Stage7:
Jhana: Attention gets drawn into the centre of the nimitta or the the light expands to envelope you, let the mind merge into bliss, then let the jhana occur. The obstacles of exhilaration and fears need to be subdued in favour of complete passivity to attain.
The qualities of Jhana:
1) It usually persists for many hours. (Scriptures state proper Jhana or full accomplished Jhana is 24 hrs, I think 10-12 may be enough for the first time.)
2) Once inside there is no choice, emergence occurs naturally when the accumulated fuel of relinquishment is used up.
3) It is impossible to perceive the body, sound, think or perceive time.
4) It is not a trance but a heightened state of awareness of bliss that doesn't move.
Any way those are my notes about Jhana from Ajahn Brahms book and basically how the Theravada Samatha Yanika tradition views Jhana. And next are the notes from, 'The Attention Revolution' by B. Allan Wallace.
The 10 stages of Jhana in the Tibetan Shamata Yanika Tradition.(I skipped the first 3 which are aiming rubbing and no there yet i.e. initial application; vitakka, sustained application; vicara and getting it but not at sustained mindfulness)
4th Mindfulness you've finally learned to really meditate: coarse excitation has gone you can maintain you awareness of the object i.e. rising and falling or just attention in the moment with kanika samadhi. the object shifts beneath the thoughts and is held with mindfulness above the thoughts, but not lost.
5th Medium and subtle excitation occur, subtle excitation are thoughts going on in the background also we have coarse laxity meaning you can't stay awake sometimes.
6th There is some satisfaction here without resistance: excitation is subtle, but it you don't use introspection (of laxity & excitation) it may quickly become coarse dragging u back to 4th or 5th lvl. Laxity becomes moderate, meaning the object just isn't clear if it isn't clear you try to hard or you concentration fades for lack of an object and you fall back into with and there is resistance i.e. some difficulty maintaining this pleasant ease.
I should note here that concentration is considered to be built upon relaxation; the foundations, stability;the wall & vividness the roof.
7th Excitation has gone but may return at a subtle lvl. Laxity is now subtle things start to get really good around here you can sit for 2 and half hours or more.
This is where you are in comparative terminology in my opinion after the fast flowing vibration push upwards lifting the body in the insight janas.
8th There is no excitation and laxity, maybe a bit at the start of the sit. any effort but the slightest here may ruin the relaxation, lose the stability and evaporate the vividness.
9th is access concentration and one can sit for at least 4hrs with pliancy & ease.
10th is jhana:
I state these last 3 levels are hard to acquire and subtle and directly applicable to letting go into high equanimity.
Still working on the following Passaged that I gathered from other threads that I have written in, nearly finished! I will start a new thread with this entry once finished!
I have spent the last 2 ten week retreats exploring Jana along with Insight. I believe you can't attain stream-entry without access concentration. After all this time studying and practicing, I've only just put it into perspective in the last 6 months, that is, what the achievement of Access Concentration really is.
Mahasi teachers Sayadaw Dr. Sununda and Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. have both directly told me while on retreat with them, that when one is at the peak of Equanimity Regarding Formations one achieves a pliancy of body that allows one to sit for at least 4 hrs i.e. with great ease of body; they were specifically talking about the final stages or the sub-nana High Equanimity. This physical pliancy of being able to sit for 4hrs is the same equivalent standard of pliancy for Access Concentration within the Samatha Tradition.
Practitioners believing they are opening out into High Equanimity or the final stages of Equanimity Regarding Formations may having referenced Daniel Ingram's Nana Map and believe they have attained High Equanimity (Here are his descriptions of H.Eq.: panoramic, near perfect, airable, peaceful, ordinary, boredom, forgetfulness, balance, deep wisdom seems very natural and ordinary attachment to mastery vanishes, effort to attain or do vanishes, it all happens by itself.).
After the intensity of the fast flowing vibrations associated with the description of Late Mastery have pasted, and if one is experiencing enough of the qualities associated with H. Eq. as stated in the description above, but is still only sitting for two and a half hours, your not there yet.
This is what teachers Sayadaw Dr. Sununda and Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. have both directly told me. Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. is the fellow that helped Daniel Ingram attain Arhatship, he has stated in his book.
Even though the experiences stated above, may fit those descriptions of High Equanimity, I sate that what is occurring is the rising and falling or the micro-cycling of the nana stage of Late Mastery, as it refines within its self toward H. Eq.. At this point one is at the doorway or precipice like state, that sits between Late Mastery & High Equanimity or alternately, sits at Late Mastery's peak after the fast flowing vibration stage is finished.
It's here you experience an openness that mimics the factors of High Equanimity, but it's not there yet. It's this state that you cycle up and down from and refine before you attain the real High Equanimity, which requires more concentration! Or more Mindfulness and more Khanika Samadhi i.e. concentration.
You can't attain Stream-Entry without Access Concentration, a book by Bikku Bodhi that referenced the Sutta's as well the Visuddhimagga stated. Though Bikkhu Bodhi came from a Samatha Tradition he found references in the Sutta's and the Commentaries that support the notion of attaining Stream-Entry from Access Concentration and therefore from Dry-Insight.
The Visuddhimagga which retains the original description of The 16 Stages of the Path describes Access Concentration in a Shamata Yanika way! The Visuddhimagga references Jhana as being a 24 hr attainment when fully mastered. Jhana may be accessed in a shorter period of 8 to 12 hrs and one can chose to shorten Jhana to the time one desires as one gains control of it, also there is the possibility one may attain full Jhana for a shorter period. But it you've attained to Jhana you should be able to do at least an 8 hr sit on another or many occasion, to confirm your attainment of jhana and then begin to move up to 12 hr minimum sits or even 24 hr sits to confirm and fully consolidate the attainment.
Dry-Insight is an ambiguous thing in the Sutta's and Bikkhu Bodhi thinks there are only clear precedents for the the attainment of of the lower 3 Paths in the Sutta's and quotes different Sutta's to show that. I'm not putting all my eggs in the Sutta Basket either. But often after attainment it is easier to attain high levels of concentration Daniel Ingram, states, and else where he also made reference for the need for strong levels of concentration to attain stream-entry.
So in respect to those themes how many Arhats attained without any Jhana, Bikkhu Bodhi state that there are only a few ambiguous references in the Sutta's of anyone attaining full Arhatship as a Dry-Insighter, compared to thousands of references to Jhana based attainments? At minimum Dry-Insight requires Access Concentration as described by Bikkhu Bodhi in his Sutta References.
The Sutta's when referencing Attainment, often refer to period of concentrated where insight is present, sometime this concentration is clearly post Jhanic states of concentration, other times concentration is just stated as being present. So these people are in high states of concentration, very close to Jhana or in post Jhana states i.e. A.C. where they are able to contemplate clearly. Coming from the Suttric position of someone like Bikkhu Bodhi he talks about people attaining Path from Access Concentration, before and after jhana. All the Sutta's make reference and prioritise the need for concentration to attain but an interesting point is that they don't actually distinguish between Jhana and Access Concentration, B. Alan Wallace stated in his book. So therefore it is from A.C. that we are attaining, as described by the Samatha Yanika Tradition. As this is comparative to H. Eq. because good concentration is required for the pliancy of body associated with a 4 hr sit and for attainment within Equanimity Regarding Formations. Also because Jhana is traditionally describe as being devoid of thought and therefore investigation, as total fixation is in place, the ability to investigating changing phenomena must be post Jhana, i.e. A.C. is seen as the platform for investigation in the Samatha Yanika Tradition. Basically I am going back and forward in cross referencing argument.
For Access Concentration to be the bases of the attainment of path it needs to be investigative, it has to change from a fixed object when in jhana to a changing object or one cannot realize anything. This is the state of Samadhi that is described as the basis of attainment in the Sutta's. Access Concentration is not that different from Kanika Samadhi, and investigating in Access Concentration is likely at the same level as High Equanimity, if the investigation is good, actually I believe they are the same. During the development of Shamata over the Ten Tibetan Stages, it is really only in the last 3 stages that one really starts to develop some fixation on an object. And it would be more correct to say that its only in the last stage i.e. Jhana that full fixation is actually achieved. Before then there is a reliance on qualities of investigation to develop the practice. So Shamata cannot be developed without functions of wisdom being developed, this is another reason they are the same.
The level of concentration at High Equanimity using Kanika Samadhi to the level of Access Concentration is 4 or 5 hrs. But one can easily slip into spacious states of Samadhi that I have experienced that are like 5th Jhana: (some would call that a soft 5th Jhana) no body awareness, next to no thought, high lvls of peace, bliss and ease of body sitting for 1 & a half to 2 & a half hrs. This is still not enough concentration, and not at the lvl of concentration described as Access Concentration in the Vissudhimagga and by the Shamata Yanika Traditions. Which brings us again full circle back to me reminding you of the students of Mahasi Sayadaw telling me, of sitting 4 to 5 hrs for High Equanimity and Ajahn Brahm and the Tibetan tradition saying the same time period is required for Access Concentration. What a coincidence, I think not!
By the way, the later two teachers would be saying you need full Jhana with the ability to sit around 8 to 12 or even to 24 hours to attain. But not only are there Suttric references that state otherwise, but there are living traditions that give evidence to the minority of reports in the Sutta's, of people attaining with Dry-Insight. I believe attainment is definitely available to the Dry-Insight practitioner, but only to those who have attained Khanika Samadhi to the level of Access Concentration. This can be either with Khanika Samadhi / Momentary Concentration or Access Concentration Upacāra-Samādhi (which working towards Appaṇā-Samādhi) or both! Because the difference between Kanika Samadhi and Fixed Attention is not that distinct.
Now to clarify an additional point or two, I'm not saying that Ingram's definitions of soft & hard Jhana that can include thoughts are without validity, I don't know, but I definitely wouldn't water down Jhana or Access Concentration to the random experience of Jhanic factors that can arise in the earlier stages of Samadhi. The Jhana/Samata Yanika Traditions are defining Access Concentration in the ball park of 4 or 5 hours, so whatever your so called experiences of Jhana are, they're not really at the required level of the attainment of stream entry if you can't attain access concentration or equanimity to the level of around 4 to 5 hours as I have defined it earlier.
Yeah sure some dude may have attained in 1 hour, that doesn't mean they didn't have access concentration to the level I stated before though. Though for most us, we may have to do the hard work, and if we haven't done a 4hr sit, we probably wont get Stream Entry.
There is a larger predominance in Buddhism of viewing Buddhist Practice throughout the world in the context of the Samatha Tradition, basically the Burmese are the only Dry-Insighter's. It would seem to be broadly ignorant to disregard all other Buddhism's definitions of Access Concentration and Jhana, and the Visuddhimagga that describes Jhana as a very high lvl of attainment. So if you give some relevance to what Shamata Yanika describes as Access Concentration what we get is a clearer definition of H. Eq. that is supported by the scripture more clearly and is built from a base of A.C. or its equivalent level in Khanika Samadhi! What is occurring is a cross reference, where each supports by the other. Because H. Eq. need 4 hrs and the description of Shamata Yanika AC also need 4 hrs, this actually validates both Yanika Traditions.
With Metta & Rejoicing in Enthusiastic Practice,
Neem.