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RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings

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Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/8/14 2:53 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Droll Dedekind 10/8/14 3:28 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/8/14 3:52 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Droll Dedekind 10/8/14 5:31 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings J J 10/8/14 6:31 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/9/14 12:21 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Rod 10/9/14 2:43 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 9:36 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings . Jake . 10/14/14 9:47 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 10:50 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings . Jake . 10/14/14 11:16 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Psi Phi 10/14/14 1:15 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Teague 10/8/14 6:10 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/9/14 12:03 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Simon T. 10/8/14 5:16 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Florian Weps 10/14/14 11:17 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 1:18 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Florian Weps 10/14/14 3:11 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 4:07 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 4:16 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Florian Weps 10/15/14 5:20 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 7:29 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 10:49 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Psi Phi 10/15/14 12:28 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 1:47 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Droll Dedekind 10/15/14 12:30 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 1:53 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Droll Dedekind 10/15/14 2:50 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/15/14 10:48 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 1:01 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/16/14 1:12 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 5:06 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Colleen Karalee Peltomaa 10/16/14 9:06 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 9:51 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/16/14 3:57 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 11:57 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Droll Dedekind 10/16/14 7:35 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/17/14 12:01 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/18/14 1:41 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/18/14 4:00 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Rod 10/15/14 4:47 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Colleen Karalee Peltomaa 10/16/14 9:26 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Chris J Macie 10/14/14 10:56 PM
Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 2:53 PM
I began a thread under Shinzen Young with these quotes:

HPK: During the last retreat here you mentioned that many of your students are more enlightened than they think they are.
After 30 years of working in the field, what have you observed that’s common, and what’s different about your student’s experiences of
enlightenment? How do their experiences compare to, for instance, those found in Kapleau’s “Three Pillars of Zen”, or Buddhagosa’s
“Vissuddhimagga”? How common is that dramatic, sudden experience of enlightenment as compared to the more gradual and even integration.

SZY:
The sudden epiphany that’s described in many books about enlightenment, that has definitely happened to some of my students. And when it happens, it’s similar to what is described in those books. How frequently does it happen? I don’t know. I don’t keep statistics, but maybe a couple times a year.

Here is Shinzen's interview at Buddhist Geeks: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

I was surprised to see that this number is quite small, "a couple of times a year" despite of Shinzen's strong kensho-background via Rinzai Zen. Anyway, this thread is not about him (nor was the one I posted before).

I would like to know statistics (numbers) of how many stream-entries various guides/teachers verify during some period of time (perhaps on a retreat, during a month or year) and how many who apply the practice that is meant for a breakthrough actually pass the gate. Through numbers I wish to outline how methods actually work.

The reason I am asking this is because I have many times heard being said words like "humanity still hasn't found a way to mass awakenings" or words to that nature. In fact, I recall also Shinzen saying that somewhere.

I guess many here know LU, Liberation Unleashed. I am not up-to-date with their work but requested this info from Elena Nezhinsky who is one of the LU-founders. She said she will gladly find the information I am asking. I think they have found a wonderful way to awaken people.

I myself have been doing direct pointing since April this year. With a 6 week Summer break in between, awakenings/stream-entries number up to 17 now (out of 21 people who joined the process which is done via email) in about 6 months that I've been doing them upon requests. The percentage of awakening is 81% which is quite good. Still it remains to be seen what is the situation when the total number of participants rises up to a 100, 200 or so. I am actually a tantric yoga teacher but figured out that a direct pointing method is much more effective for this purpose than mantra/tantra-practice.

I'd appreciate any data on this.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 3:28 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
How do you determine that someone has achieved 'stream-entry'? How many had prior meditation and seeking?

A text conversation in which awakening is expected seems like an unreliable way to collect data.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 3:52 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
DD,

There are three ways for either verification or falsification that I use (not in specific order).

1. Written word/answers given by the person
2. A newly taken profile photo where eyes are clearly seen (because the I-sense falls off from the level of the eyes)
3. The energetic feeling/sensation that is transmitted from the particular person (where you need to be able to compare to your own awakened state whether an awakening has occurred or not)

Refer to the book for further info: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5594955

I've had people ranging from 2 months of meditation background to 30 years of "professional" practice (10 years out of those 30 as a monk). Prior practices vary from simple stress reduction exercises to Transcendental Meditation, from kriya yoga to tai chi. Ages between 23-70. Men and women. All European so far.

Based on my exp emailing is not unreliable at all. emoticon

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 5:16 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Is the process effective beyond stream entry?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 5:31 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Can you estimate an average amount of experience for the people you work with? And, your criteria remain unconvincing to me. I'd like to believe awakening is that easy, but I doubt it. It's remarkable what people will script themselves into if they've paid money.

Also, to partially answer Simon's question, I think your definition of 'stream-entry' isn't congruent with the typical definition of stream-entry around here. Your 'stream-entry' is 'MCTB arhatship', I think.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 6:10 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
If you have someones permission, can you post before and after photos of their eyes?  That's something I'd be keen to see.

-T

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 6:31 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Alan Chapman states in this video: http://vimeo.com/14928107 at around 6:18

"And I think the fact of the matter is that enlightenment is far more common than people are willing to admit." Previously he had said that he had no reason to doubt any of many of the claims to enlightenment that teachers in the public domain had made (listing Ken Wilber, Adi Da, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen). Duncan Barford on his OEITH blog states (in his "An Apology for Meditation" article) that he agrees with Bill Joslin that "awakening experiences are not a big deal."

What I'm trying to say is that, awakening is actually extremely common, despite what may seem like a New-Age-y thing, it does seem that awakening is becoming more and more common. From my perspective (which I consider awakened), everyone is awakened.

And I don't mean that in an only absolute sense, I mean that literally, despite whatever training I have done, whatever "distinctions I have attained". I literally see everyone as awakened and having no distinction between myself and them. This is somewhat like the Hongaku doctrine, but that doctrine seems to imply that awakening is actually something special, which it isn't.

There is no expression, no progress, no path, no fruition, the vidya (rigpa) is ever present. But no clouded or shrouded either. It's a koan.

Even Hakuin opined that the tales of seekers and masters taking 10 or 20 years for their quest to end must have surely been made up by them! Stating: "The Way is not far from man."

Peace.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 12:03 AM as a reply to Teague.
Teague:
If you have someones permission, can you post before and after photos of their eyes?  That's something I'd be keen to see.

-T
T. I can ask. I've formed a closed FB-group for people who have passed the gate through this process. That has been a handy platform for open discussion.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 12:21 AM as a reply to J J.
J J:
Alan Chapman states in this video: http://vimeo.com/14928107 at around 6:18

"And I think the fact of the matter is that enlightenment is far more common than people are willing to admit." Previously he had said that he had no reason to doubt any of many of the claims to enlightenment that teachers in the public domain had made (listing Ken Wilber, Adi Da, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen). Duncan Barford on his OEITH blog states (in his "An Apology for Meditation" article) that he agrees with Bill Joslin that "awakening experiences are not a big deal."

What I'm trying to say is that, awakening is actually extremely common, despite what may seem like a New-Age-y thing, it does seem that awakening is becoming more and more common. From my perspective (which I consider awakened), everyone is awakened.

And I don't mean that in an only absolute sense, I mean that literally, despite whatever training I have done, whatever "distinctions I have attained". I literally see everyone as awakened and having no distinction between myself and them. This is somewhat like the Hongaku doctrine, but that doctrine seems to imply that awakening is actually something special, which it isn't.

There is no expression, no progress, no path, no fruition, the vidya (rigpa) is ever present. But no clouded or shrouded either. It's a koan.

Even Hakuin opined that the tales of seekers and masters taking 10 or 20 years for their quest to end must have surely been made up by them! Stating: "The Way is not far from man."

Peace.

JJ,

Um, I don't know about this sort of stuff. Maybe it is a poor choice of words but awakening is not an experience as Bill Joslin said. Maybe they confuse awakening/enlightenment with something else. Certainly for me, my late teacher as well as to each one who has awakened in my guidance awakening is a "big deal", a turning point. By big deal, I mean a definite shift that is permanent, dropping of I from the place of subject. That is how the gang of robbers looses it's boss, in a psychological sense, and that is never an insignificant thing. If it was an insignificant thing I doubt people of the past or present would be interested in it.

If awakening is something that makes the person better, higher or more precious than others, then we are not talking about awakening as how I understand it. For me awakening hasn't brought an "aura of mystery", a higher position in relation to others or something like that but the contrary, naturalness and simplicity.

I certainly don't think that awakenings are "extremely common". If they were, the world society and the planet would be in a very different place. Sure, awakenings do occur these days much more often than for example 10, 50 or 100 years ago but still, I think, it will be perhaps hundreds of years before we can talk about "mass awakenings" that will have a direct effect on the society. That is simple not the situation at the moment. 

Hakuin's quote "The Way is not far from man" is spot on. He does say that there is some distance between man and the Way which in practical terms means that everyone is not already awakened. Surely Hakuin wasn't before he had first breakthrough. I think he wrote in his diary that he had 18 breakthroughs which made him the most respected zen-master of the modern times.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 2:43 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I agree.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 9:36 AM as a reply to Rod.
Hmm... I expected to get more information on the matter on this particular forum. No one knows? Really?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 9:47 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
The only study I'm aware of regarding the rate of awakenings (in this case: stream entry, according to Therevada criteria) was a study in which meditators on a three month retreat were studied before during and after the retreat. Teachers were asked to identify which students had hit which milestones and this teacher assessment was correlated with changes in thematic apperceptive testing and other qaultitative 'measurements' of the students.

The study was done twice: with (mostly) Burmese meditators in Burma and with (mostly) Western students at IMS in Barre Massachusetts(I think it was IMS, anyway). In the former case the Stream Entry rate was something like 50% I think. In the latter case it was much much lower, maybe even 1%. As I recall the analysis of this disparity was that the Burmese students followed instructions at a higher rate while the Western students at IMS didn't follow instructions at a high rate.

The study is discussed in "Transformations of Consciousness" which is a collaborative book by Ken Wilber, Dan Brown (now a mahamudra teacher) and Jack Engler. I think Brown and Engler conducted the study. The book is from the late seventies or early eighties I think (maybe, it's been a while since I've looked at it).

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 10:50 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
OK. Thanks Jake.

I have Brown's book on mahamudra but don't recall him referring to this study, have to check it.

50% vs. 1%. Gee... That's a huge difference. 3 months huh? That's pretty intensive, most Westerners couldn't even join one. I don't know if the Burmese method aims to stream entry or not.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 11:16 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Sorry for being unclear, yes, the Burmese method does directly aim at it; it's one of the traditions that uses that specific language and frames awakening in terms of Four Paths of which SE is the first. This is a tradition that has heavily influenced the culture here at DhO. Daniel's work and that of other pioneers in the pragmatic dharma scene could be seen as a response to the conditions which result in such low success rates for Westerners.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 11:17 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I myself have been doing direct pointing since April this year. With a 6 week Summer break in between, awakenings/stream-entries number up to 17 now (out of 21 people who joined the process which is done via email) in about 6 months that I've been doing them upon requests. The percentage of awakening is 81% which is quite good. Still it remains to be seen what is the situation when the total number of participants rises up to a 100, 200 or so. I am actually a tantric yoga teacher but figured out that a direct pointing method is much more effective for this purpose than mantra/tantra-practice.

I'd appreciate any data on this.


Sorry, I don't have any data on this. What do you want to do with such statistics? Can't you make some up? ;)

So, not having answered your question: I'm happy to hear news from Elena and Ilona.

What do you think of the awakening you point people at? Does it "stick"? What do your earliest ... pointees (any good name for them?) ... from April, say now? Is it a memory to them? Can they access it at will (rather than access a memory of it)? Do any say they "lost" it? Do you get the impression they want to believe it stuck even if they lost it?

I find pointing very interesting, and the associated "transmission effect". I'm totally unsure what to make of it, though. So I'm genuinely interested in your take, in another thread if you prefer to keep this one dedicated to statistics.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 1:15 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hmm... I expected to get more information on the matter on this particular forum. No one knows? Really?

Ooh, Ooh! Mr Kotter! I know!  The success rate for Stream Enterers is 100% of those who enter the Stream.  Just messin' with ya!  :-), but seriously, I know nothing....which is indeed a paradox in and of itself....

Psi Phi

Just brushing up on my "wrong speech"

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 1:18 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:

Sorry, I don't have any data on this. What do you want to do with such statistics? Can't you make some up? ;)

So, not having answered your question: I'm happy to hear news from Elena and Ilona.

What do you think of the awakening you point people at? Does it "stick"? What do your earliest ... pointees (any good name for them?) ... from April, say now? Is it a memory to them? Can they access it at will (rather than access a memory of it)? Do any say they "lost" it? Do you get the impression they want to believe it stuck even if they lost it?

I find pointing very interesting, and the associated "transmission effect". I'm totally unsure what to make of it, though. So I'm genuinely interested in your take, in another thread if you prefer to keep this one dedicated to statistics.

Cheers,
Florian

I wish to get somekind of a fact based overall picture of how we are actually doing. No other purpose.

Although I use the term "stream entry" I am not familiar with how the theravada-folks describe it in more detail. I posted some questions about the notions my students have made after the initial breakthrough. Not all of them are keen Facebook/internet-users but I hope I get answers at least from half of them.

I suppose that for those who have little or close to none meditataion/practice background there might have been moments/periods when they have felt they lost it. Personally in my case, I thought so several times in my head. However the "I" never came back, it never became a memory which would imply of an experience. Hence the awakening would have not been a real permanent breakthrough. Will get back with the information from the apes. Yeah, the group we have at Facebook for these folks is named "Apes on their way to liberation". We openly speak of apes emoticon

Florian, What do you mean with the transmission effect? What are you unsure of?

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 3:11 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I wish to get somekind of a fact based overall picture of how we are actually doing. No other purpose.


Ok.

Florian, What do you mean with the transmission effect? What are you unsure of?


Transmitting realization from one person to the next. A couple of older threads I remember:

Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...

Direct Transmission - A Greased Lightening Path?

I'm unsure what to make of it. It's fascinating but also has the potential to become a totally creepy thing. Examples: Adi Da. Andrew Cohen.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 4:07 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Right. I'll go through the Folk-recording and the threads tomorrow.

I have transmissions/tunings with my students both in person as well as through Skype, sometimes without Skype or any other online-media because I'm a tantric yoga teacher. Also, my late teacher used this method as her primary teaching tool (she lived at Hawaii while I live in Finland) so I'm well aware of it. I also teach this stuff to my students who will someday pass transmissions themselves to their students.

I'd say tuning in with anything is a basic skill for a tantric yogi. But just like you mention it is crucial to know some basics of who does it, how and to whom. Common morals and ethics go a long way here too.

I'll get back on this.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 10:56 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

Although I use the term "stream entry" I am not familiar with how the theravada-folks describe it in more detail.

Interesting thread -- how much do we really know (demographics and among the range of definitions)?

What is Theravadan SE? Two directions -- how it's attained (and recognized), and what it does for one.

Here's a relatively succint (ca 80 pages) intro by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html

Here's additional information on his take of it (not found in the book):
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/5585083#_19_message_5596761

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 4:16 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:


Transmitting realization from one person to the next. A couple of older threads I remember:

Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...

Direct Transmission - A Greased Lightening Path?

I'm unsure what to make of it. It's fascinating but also has the potential to become a totally creepy thing. Examples: Adi Da. Andrew Cohen.

Cheers,
Florian

I went through the threads (didn't listen to Folk's recording yet). Many good and valid points there. Do you have something specific in mind
that you are unsure of?

I regards to transmission in awakening guidances that I give, yes I do sometimes give them an energetic boost but in this case it is not the same as when passing initiations of deity practices or what is referred to as shaktipat. How I give the boost in the guidances is like this (the video of a zen master) but I do it through writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjyqGnWGftE

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 5:20 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I went through the threads (didn't listen to Folk's recording yet). Many good and valid points there. Do you have something specific in mind that you are unsure of?


Like I said: does it stick? How do people deveolp after transmission? How to deal with the possibility of abuse of the power gradient?

I regards to transmission in awakening guidances that I give, yes I do sometimes give them an energetic boost but in this case it is not the same as when passing initiations of deity practices or what is referred to as shaktipat. How I give the boost in the guidances is like this (the video of a zen master) but I do it through writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjyqGnWGftE


Yeah, the "death metal aesthetics" of awakening emoticon

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 7:29 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Oh, right! Now I understand the context of your question.

To make sure there is difference between 1. direct pointing (whether it is done by verbal pointing or the way how the zen master does it in the film, I think it is a fabolous clip btw) and 2. transmission of energy/shakti. This is a clear distinction though sometimes it is not so black and white, meaning that either one can and does effect the other.

From my own behalf as a teacher I can say that I use both approaches because I think the tantric method doesn't do very good in regards to stream entry (dropping of I, the primary cause of delusion) while it does great in reg to karmic cleansing while analytical meditation (subject vipashyana) used in direct pointing works well for the purpose. Analysis of I-ness/I-lessness could be continued (karmic purification, the secondary causes of delusion) after the subject I has dropped but I think such approach is just too slow and time consuming for the common dedicated practitioner. This is why I combine both approaches, at least for time being.

I am sure that when shakti transmissions are done 1. by a valid at least awakened person who is well trained in meditation and has 2. to a larger part or completely cleansed his/her karmic body, then surely there is long-term benefit for the person receiving it. However, these two requirements are very rarely fulfilled in all the shaktipats/transmissions that I've seen. Usually, it is more or less an "esoteric cocktail".

In the other thread there was the example how someone got the transmission of the elder chan monk and his fingers, urine and whatever turned to taste sweet. I didn't see him saying if this has actually been beneficial to him. He did say that he didn't feel or notice any difference with the exception of the taste. Anyway, licking your own or others fingers or tasting your urine after transmission to see how or if it has worked or not sounds way too *weird* for me. I do not know who we are talking about but this does not sound pregnant with wisdom to me. Sorry.

I've witnessed several cases of world known "masters or satgurus" giving their blessings or initiations when the outcome of it has solely been negative: people getting sick and nautious, some even for a long period of time before they have received help from more competent healers or teachers.

Oh boy, now that I came to think of this... I've seen so screwed up things happen you wouldn't believe. My late teacher used to laugh at me because I used to take up these "big boys". Now recalling all those things these world gurus do to their devotees and students makes me extremely sad for all of them. I can only sincerely pray that it will turn out better for them.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 10:49 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Here is the reply from Elena from Liberation Unleashed:

"On the LU forum we have 1049 documented works. A little portion of those
dublicates ( same client was guided by couple of guides). On a safe side
people said we can say 1000 for sure. Then add 42 face to face
realizations in live LU meetings I held in 2013, and they are not
documented, but all works were confirmed by 2-3 LU people present at
these meetings."

Now... THAT is some convincing data! Wouldn't you agree, folks? emoticon

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 12:28 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Here is the reply from Elena from Liberation Unleashed:

"On the LU forum we have 1049 documented works. A little portion of those
dublicates ( same client was guided by couple of guides). On a safe side
people said we can say 1000 for sure. Then add 42 face to face
realizations in live LU meetings I held in 2013, and they are not
documented, but all works were confirmed by 2-3 LU people present at
these meetings."

Now... THAT is some convincing data! Wouldn't you agree, folks? emoticon

Definitely agree!

 Now, is this sudden awakening that you are attempting to track and/or catalouge defined as definition 1  or 2 below

Sudden Awakening 1:  The person awakened has now directly experienced for themselves that there really is no "I" directing each thought that comes to the mind, but , now that this has been seen and realized this isn't the view of the mind all of the time, though the new viewpoint is accessible if one remembers the insight.  Basically one is partially released from self-delusion.  One might add , there is another form of "small-stream entry"  which is Chula-Sotapanna, which also seems to fit better to what is happening here. 

Sudden Awakening 2:  The person awakened has now been fully released from :

  1. Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
  2. Doubt(vicikiccha)
  3. Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
  4. Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
  5. Ill-Will (vyapada)
  6. Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
  7. Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
  8. Conceit (mana)
  9. Restlessness (uddhaccan)
  10. Ignorance (avijja).

So, from my view it seems, the sudden awakenings are cutting into the first fetter, Self-Illusion, which is very important, but much more is to be done.  So, again, just a view, Awakened , more Awakened, even more awakened, and fully awakened, are different, and there are probably many in between stages between the stages.

And,  the Sudden Awakening for a practioner would be of tremendous benefit, though I wouldn't call it the end of the journey.

Sorry for my earlier comedy post being embedded within your serious postings, Sometimes I don't know if I joke too much trying to keep things light-hearted, and inadvertantly bother people...

Psi Phi

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 12:30 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So, they're claiming 1000/1050? 95%? That makes me even more skeptical. Though, I honestly wish it's true.

Maybe you could start a thread here and run a direct pointing experiment. I'm willing to volunteer and cooperate sincerely, if you like the idea. I'm sure others around here wouldn't mind a sudden awakening either.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 1:47 PM as a reply to Psi Phi.
Psi Phi:

Definitely agree!

 Now, is this sudden awakening that you are attempting to track and/or catalouge defined as definition 1  or 2 below

Sudden Awakening 1:  The person awakened has now directly experienced for themselves that there really is no "I" directing each thought that comes to the mind, but , now that this has been seen and realized this isn't the view of the mind all of the time, though the new viewpoint is accessible if one remembers the insight.  Basically one is partially released from self-delusion.  One might add , there is another form of "small-stream entry"  which is Chula-Sotapanna, which also seems to fit better to what is happening here. 

Sudden Awakening 2:  The person awakened has now been fully released from :

  1. Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
  2. Doubt(vicikiccha)
  3. Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
  4. Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
  5. Ill-Will (vyapada)
  6. Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
  7. Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
  8. Conceit (mana)
  9. Restlessness (uddhaccan)
  10. Ignorance (avijja).

So, from my view it seems, the sudden awakenings are cutting into the first fetter, Self-Illusion, which is very important, but much more is to be done.  So, again, just a view, Awakened , more Awakened, even more awakened, and fully awakened, are different, and there are probably many in between stages between the stages.

And,  the Sudden Awakening for a practioner would be of tremendous benefit, though I wouldn't call it the end of the journey.

Sorry for my earlier comedy post being embedded within your serious postings, Sometimes I don't know if I joke too much trying to keep things light-hearted, and inadvertantly bother people...

Psi Phi
PP,

Yes, the first one. I mentioned in the prev post two terms that I use: primary cause of delusion (subject) and secondary causes of delusion (all objects/karmas) which seem to nicely fit with the model you post here. In my exp these two stages are the main ones. I call them awakening/enlightenment and liberation (jivanmukta/arhat). After this there is also the third main stage of full buddhahood/paramukta-hood. These three main stages can be chopped into several smaller ones (as is done with the bodhisattva bhumis) but I use this map because it is easy to understand.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 1:53 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Droll Dedekind:
So, they're claiming 1000/1050? 95%? That makes me even more skeptical. Though, I honestly wish it's true.

Maybe you could start a thread here and run a direct pointing experiment. I'm willing to volunteer and cooperate sincerely, if you like the idea. I'm sure others around here wouldn't mind a sudden awakening either.
Their claims can be verified by reading all those dialogues from their online forum. I have no reason to think that Elena would have made those numbers up. I do have one student who awoke through LU in just 2 days, that went very smoothly. One of my student knows better about LU than I do. In reg to stream entry it seems to me they do better than all the trads combined. But just as it has been said, it is not everything, just the beginning.

No, I am not eager to do the experiment here but if you wish you can download a free e-book and read how I do it:
http://en.samadhipath.com/114

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 2:50 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I don't think any deliberate deception is at work here. But...

When there are archives full of these conversations, that seekers have presumably read, is it any surprise that people can reproduce answers that sound like an awakening? To complicate matters, there are probably some people that have been seeking for years that have woken up through LU. But, their years of previous work were essential to that awakening. I think it's common for teachers to have an anticlimactic awakening after years of seeking, and then assume that they (and anyone) could have just had that awakening from the beginning. It's easy to underestimate the creeping effect of years of spiritual seeking.

Then, there are probably scores of people on LU who believe that awakening is merely an intellectual understanding. They see that the process has (ostensibly) worked for so many others; it's human nature to want to be in the club of people who 'got it'. Guide status, and a colored username too? Oooo

A Crowley poem comes to mind. Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 4:47 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So this guy - Fred Davis, uses a method of his own invention (I suppose) to wake people up. The link included is of him talking and some testimonials after waking up in a workshop he conducted. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of him going through his technique as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73nPqCncjs

I have alot of questions around this since there could be alot of categories under the banner of 'waking up' with a few already suggested. Some of what the testimonials are suggesting here is that the 'waking up' is not permanent. I am not sure if this kind of waking up is the same thing or where on the spectrum of waking up (if one could be developed) this would sit in relation to say the clearly mapped theravadin path model where each path change is a considered a permanent change.

The question of whether sudden waking up requires continued practice to support further unfoldment, if indeed any is required and if not, is the state stable? and if its stable is it the same state as one of say a monk who just keeps meditating and practicing daily regardless of if they have woken up or not?  As I said, lots of questions around this. 

Prof Jefferey Martin has also tried to look at the woken up state from an academic, non-spiritual perspective to try and characterise it and has interviewed over 1000 subjects over the past 8 years as far as I understand. On the site below there are a couple of youtube videos of Jefferey Martin presenting his findings and he also suggests that some of the subjects actually 'lost' the awake state either temporarily or permanently as well. This may be useful in this discussion as well.

http://nonsymbolic.org/about/

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 10:48 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
buddha!

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 1:01 AM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
DD,

What is the problem if someone wants to produce learned answers? That is no harm for the guide but for the person himself. We talked about this with my assistant teachers.

At LU they leave the confirmation of the awakening mostly for the person himself. The guide discusses about the awakening with 2-3 other guides before the awakening is confirmed. They as do I request the person to be honest and as clear as possible in the dialogue. As there are so many guides at LU I suppose some of them can and some of them can't vefiry or falsify the seeker's awakening also without the written answers. I combine three ways of verification which are: 1. written answers/explanations of what has taken place, 2. photo before and after and 3. testing ones awakening in everyday life. As I'm trained in this I'm pretty sure I can spot if someone tries to trick me. In these awakening guidances it hasn't happened but on other issues has. I feel it instantly if the person is talking the truth or not, or if it tastes like paper (merely intellectual). That is fine for me if people wish to speak falsely but in the case of awakening guidances I certainly wouldn't pass such a person. I'd say that being able to spot these things is the difference between an amateur and a professional teacher. It requires years of in-depth training with a competent teacher/s.

Also, what is the issue if and when people have long backgrounds of meditation/practices? I don't see what is the matter with that question.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 1:12 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 5:06 AM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:06 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com
Hello, Kim, would you mind if I contacted you for some clarification?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:26 AM as a reply to Rod.
Rod:
So this guy - Fred Davis, uses a method of his own invention (I suppose) to wake people up. The link included is of him talking and some testimonials after waking up in a workshop he conducted. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of him going through his technique as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73nPqCncjs

I have alot of questions around this since there could be alot of categories under the banner of 'waking up' with a few already suggested. Some of what the testimonials are suggesting here is that the 'waking up' is not permanent. I am not sure if this kind of waking up is the same thing or where on the spectrum of waking up (if one could be developed) this would sit in relation to say the clearly mapped theravadin path model where each path change is a considered a permanent change.

The question of whether sudden waking up requires continued practice to support further unfoldment, if indeed any is required and if not, is the state stable? and if its stable is it the same state as one of say a monk who just keeps meditating and practicing daily regardless of if they have woken up or not?  As I said, lots of questions around this. 

Prof Jefferey Martin has also tried to look at the woken up state from an academic, non-spiritual perspective to try and characterise it and has interviewed over 1000 subjects over the past 8 years as far as I understand. On the site below there are a couple of youtube videos of Jefferey Martin presenting his findings and he also suggests that some of the subjects actually 'lost' the awake state either temporarily or permanently as well. This may be useful in this discussion as well.

http://nonsymbolic.org/about/

Thank you for presenting this fella and his work.  I put myself through one of his guided sessions and at first I was critical for him always asking the question and then giving the answer and then I decided to treat it as a guided visualization and that is when it started to work for me.   It can cut through delusions -- he is simply using logic, a logic that is not of the mind.   Any process that can get the being to even temporarily bypass their mind is of value.  And even if the being cannot immediately disengage from their enforced games of life, they will never forget it as an experience of a !wow! moment and at some point want to re-create that experience, seeking it out.   I also saw this occur occasionally with people going through the Sedona Method Course. 

I'm committed to finishing another [slow awakening] practice for now, but once in awhile I like to give myself a "cat-treat" and do some back-to-basics self enquiry, namely, "what am I?".  You know -- that inner "purrrrr"   :-))

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:51 AM as a reply to Colleen Karalee Peltomaa.
Colleen Karalee Peltomaa:
Kim Katami:
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com
Hello, Kim, would you mind if I contacted you for some clarification?
Colleen,

No, I don't mind.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 3:57 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Did this message not get to you?  There was a server reset on the night I sent it...

"Do you want your sudden awakening?  Colleen has it in a little box under her bed.  She has been saving it for you, waiting to give it to you on your BirthDay"

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 7:35 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
My previous post seems needlessly critical, sorry.

To put it more positively: if LU gave short surveys that asked pointees about their previous meditation/spiritual experience, then success rates could be put into more descriptive brackets. Like, Average Joe Success Rate 15%-20%, ..., 10+ Years of Meditation Success Rate 90%. These stats would be more interesting.

I'm gonna give LU a sincere try soon. I'll post here if I have to eat my words emoticon

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 11:57 PM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
Did this message not get to you?  There was a server reset on the night I sent it...

"Do you want your sudden awakening?  Colleen has it in a little box under her bed.  She has been saving it for you, waiting to give it to you on your BirthDay"
What message? I don't get it.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/17/14 12:01 AM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Droll Dedekind:
My previous post seems needlessly critical, sorry.

To put it more positively: if LU gave short surveys that asked pointees about their previous meditation/spiritual experience, then success rates could be put into more descriptive brackets. Like, Average Joe Success Rate 15%-20%, ..., 10+ Years of Meditation Success Rate 90%. These stats would be more interesting.

I'm gonna give LU a sincere try soon. I'll post here if I have to eat my words emoticon
As their method has worked for over 1000 people in just a few years I think it is pretty safe to assume that among those people are pretty much all kinds of people with all kinds of backgrounds you could imagine. Personally I am more interested whether it works for not for anykind of people, background or no background. Like it was said before in this thread there are other stages on the spiritual path too. Stream entry is just one of them, the first one, realisation-wise.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/18/14 1:41 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
This discussion at Awake Network covers a bit this matter: http://awakenetwork.org/forum/100-dharma-refugees/7910-how-rare-is-enlightenment

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/18/14 4:00 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Thank you 'sharp sword'