Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Physical Practices

RE: Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices

Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices
vipassana commitment mediation tai chi
Answer
3/19/14 6:33 PM
Hi there,

Back in February I finished my first 10-Day Vipassana retreat in Kaufman, TX under the guidance of Goenka (videos/recordings). Several times throughout the course, Goenkaji warns (somewhat strongly I think) against combining Vipassana with other certain practices.

Does anyone have anything to say about their experiences of combining Vipassana with other practices - or just have any useful information/opinions to share about doing that? I ask because I am committed to Vipassana, and really want to continue doing it regularly, but I find that I also really want to explore martial arts -- specifically Tai Chi (at least for the internal side of martial arts).

So does anyone have anything to say about their experience with combining Vipassana with Tai Chi or some other more of a "physically active" spiritual practice?

(Note: My motivation for trying out Tai Chi is because I want to work on grounding myself and getting to know my body. I tend to really be stuck up in the "top chakras" and totally not grounded. Always have been that way and it has caused some no longer needed struggles, I think. The reason I prefer a martial art as a way to try being grounded (as opposed to say, working with chakra meditations), is that I used to practice Taekwondo and I loved it. Just found it to be really fun! And it's a great way to stay physically active.)

EDIT/ADD: My thoughts on this question:
One sort of "issue" I could see with combining Tai Chi and Vipassana, is that from what I understand, each employs a sort of "scanning" method of the body, but coming from different intentional points. With Vipassana, you scan part by part, objectively--not trying to relax anything or to manipulative anything. With Tai Chi, however, I *believe* that from the very beginning with standing, your intention is to stand and move with the greatest ease--with the greatest "efficiency." The idea is to release all tension by discovering all present tensions in the body, and to eventually let the Earth move sort of "for you". I think that these two motivations could be distracting when trying to practice one or the other. For example, if I am sitting I may find myself relaxing every muscle which could distract from observing the "impermanence", "unsatisfactoriness", etc.

Actually, I wonder if that if you were to practice Vipassana long enough, your body wouldn't eventually release itself of muscle tension anyway, however. So maybe they are ultimately working in through the same vein anyway. Please tell me what you think!



Thanks and I look forward to your replies! emoticon

Isabel

RE: Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices
Answer
3/19/14 7:06 PM as a reply to Isabel Smith.
Hello Isabel,

I have also attended Goenka (Saya Gyi U Ba Khin ) vipassana retreats in the past and have a personal opinion about the warning given to not combine techniques. My perception of this warning is that it is for simplification and maintaining purity of the teachings as they are handed down through the generations. The more techniques you add, similar to the more chemicals you add to a solution, the less predictable the end result will be. I think the warning is to help control for variables as much as possible to achieve the desired result, similar to a scientific experiment That being said, I have also experienced mixing different techniques and to say that the different vipassana techniques are really fundamentally that different is debatable, in my opinion. As you scan the body, you are noticing physical sensations. The noticing is similar to noting, in the Mahasi tradition, which is considered a different technique, but fundamentally I wonder if they are really that different. To follow this line of thinking and to address your question of combining other physical activities in your spiritual practice, I have also experienced benefit from combining yoga, running, hiking, and Tai Chi and using a vipassana perspective during these activities has been a useful practice at deepening my insight. Similar to the walking meditation during Goenka courses, any physical activity can be part of the practice. Attend to the impermanence, pervasive disatisfactoriness, and no-separate independent selfness (e.g. the three characteristics) of the sensations as you are doing the practice. These physical practices have both been useful for me to attend to impermanence of sensation as they tend to increase the energy flowing through the body. That being said, as the energy increases concentration tends to decrease and seeing clearly the three characteristics of phenomena becomes more difficult . For me, the goal is to bring the formal meditation practice into all areas of my life and all activity becomes the vipassana practice. It is all meditation from this perspective.

I have been wanting to ask about other's experiences with physical practices as well, particularly running. I have experimented with doing running meditation during solo retreats in the past and have found it useful but wondered about other's perspectives and/or experiences with this?

metta,

Drew

RE: Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices
Answer
3/19/14 8:31 PM as a reply to Isabel Smith.
Isabel Smith:
Does anyone have anything to say about their experiences of combining Vipassana with other practices - or just have any useful information/opinions to share about doing that?


Hi Isabel,

I have practiced Chi Gong along with Tai Chi and a bit of Taekwondo thrown in for 20 years or so. Several years into that sort of practice I ended up doing a 10 day goenka retreat. "Worrrk, Worrrk, Worrrrk" - yes, I can still here his words.

I only did one goenka retreat. The style didn't really fit well with the Taoist in me. Still, it did help me see much better into pain. As far as I could tell, the main focus was to get you to the point of feeling the energy in the body though maybe they think of it as impermanence - can't remember. But that seemed to be the initial goal which then allows you to keep your awareness there. Chi Gong also uses lots of sweeping practices - you can do them in any position. Great way to go to sleep at night.

You might try looking into what is often called "medical Chi Gong" these days - same old Chi Gong just with a name more appealing to westerners I think - Tai Chi is generally considered a form of Chi Gong. Find a teacher with formal training and they will help you open up the channels and get well grounded. This would help with goenka style body-scanning and your Tai Chi - plus it feels great.

Both Goenka body-scanning and Chi Gong are going to break-up blockages in the body (what may seem like dead or numb areas) if you do them right. The two methodologies might be compared to how you can break-up ice by repeatedly shaving away at it (Goenka) or by slowly dissolving with water (Chi Gong). Just to explain that a bit more: the goenka technique has you sit without moving (which usually creates tension) and scan methodically through the body part by part looking for any sensation and doing that over and over. Chi Gong techniqes usually have you relax the body and then sweep awareness through and wherever sensation is found you encourage that to flow and expand.

If you enjoy the goenka body scanning then do go for it. Enjoying a practice helps tremendously.

As for "just practice my method and don't do anything else" - I doubt that many students really comply with such requests. But it is understandable. As Drew points out - they want you to give the technique a chance to work without mixing in other methods. But I do think that any body-oriented awareness practice is going to not only be compatable but also supportive.

RE: Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices
Answer
7/4/14 9:22 PM as a reply to Isabel Smith.
Hi Isabel,

I agree. I'm no master of either but I find that Tai Chi and Vipassana go hand in hand. I came to Vipassana after my Tai Chi studies but I found that through the martial arts (and the internal styles especially) I had a pretty good head start with mind/body awareness. Adding Vipassana to my studies has improved my ability to focus at the Tai Chi school, and Tai Chi has improved my awareness on the cushion. All in all a beneficial relationship. 

Would be interesting to see what more advanced people have to say.

If you're interested, I'd recommend checking out wustyle.com for your Tai Chi needs.

RE: Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices
Answer
9/14/14 12:19 AM as a reply to Isabel Smith.
Isabel Smith:
Does anyone have anything to say about their experiences of combining Vipassana with other practices - or just have any useful information/opinions to share about doing that? I ask because I am committed to Vipassana, and really want to continue doing it regularly, but I find that I also really want to explore martial arts -- specifically Tai Chi (at least for the internal side of martial arts).
Goenka seems to co-opt the meaning of 'vipasanna'.  He says Vipasanna practice means equanimous awareness of present moment events *at the 6 sense doors in the context of socially isolated body scanning*.  I did one 10-day, found the practice very interesting and impactful.

That said, after reading MTCB and steeping here in Dho, I believe that the real helpful part of the Goenka technique is the fact that it gives you experience in non-permanence, non-satisfaction, non-duality, AKA the 'Three Characteristics' in MTCB lingo.

So, when we talk about combining Vipasanna with other practices, we have to define what Vipassana is: is it the body scanning with attendant 'sankara release', or is it simply experiencing the 3 C?

I do believe that experience of the 3C in any context is helpful, which brings me to my own answer to your question.  Over the last 10 years I've been working on a physical/emotional/cognitive/social practice.  Long story short, a small group stands in a circle, we hit a ball around to each other, like beach ball, we just try to keep the ball aloft, this is the physical part.

Cognitive part: we use *very* simple rules to regulate speech while the ball is flying around.  The point of the rule is to require awareness of what is said when the ball gets hit to you, and to require you to verbalize in response, cognizant of the rule.  If you are not listening, you 'drop the (cognitive) ball'; feedback of non-awareness is immediate.  For example if someone hits the ball and says 'Monday', the receiver should reply with 'Tuesday', the next person should reply with 'Wednesday'.

Emotional part: we watch for ever-more detailed awareness of the physical/emotive content of the person that is hitting the ball and respond to that content by mirroring it when we field the ball.  As skill advances, we expand our awareness (mindfulness) to our own reaction to the transmission, and express that when we send the ball to another person.  In a sense, this is *kind* of like Mahasi-style noting.

I developed the practice to help me become a better improvisational actor.  Improvisers will recognize the games from the classes that actors and improvisers do, however, I take the 'games' to a kind of gymnastic/marathon level. emoticon  I just wanted to become more perceptive/expressive/responsive on the improv stage, and on the stage of real life.  After teaching this practice for hundreds of hours, in any context I could, I was pleasantly surprise to notice a dramatic reduction of situations, in real life, where I partook in unhelpful reactive behavior.  I mean, life had become much better for me! emoticon

This unexpected upgrade of my life experience led me to try to figure out why spending time hitting a ball around in the county jail,would help so much out in real life: while dodging careless auto drivers; while getting penned in by inconsiderate shoppers in the super market; while fielding questions while hosting a party; while having my view blocked by dancers at a concert; when getting hit in the face by careless or malicious beach-ball players; when being surprised by dishes clattering onto the kitchen floor behined me; when an aggressive drunk on the street lunges towards me, etc etc.

My research led me to a bunch of reading, to a Goenka retreat, then here to Dho and MCTB, and a whole lot more sitting. I think that the ball game did help, and it's because the ball game consisted of a hell of a lot of paying attention to present moment events, and a continuous stream of examples/experiences of impermanence and non-satisfaction, and having to let go of the idea that interactions are manageable/controllable/successful without being permeable/inclusive/non-controlling of what is happening inside/outside of me.

Over the years, I've done a lot of other things that required present-moment-awareness and equanimous attendance: Aikido, swing dance, chorus singing, improv acting classes.  I think they all help in the same 3-C way, but the question is, where do we put the bar?  How hard to we have to listen, see, feel?  How quickly do we get feedback/notice when we are wandering?  How do we train ourselves to respond to wandering?  Some activities require lots of awareness, lots of focused re-engagement when we wander into la-la land.  Others don't really require as much attention or correction to wandering.

I also wonder about how easily the training transfers to 'off-the-cushion' (out-of-the-classroom) environments?

I hope that my experience is responsive to your question, and I'd love to hear more conversation about the subject.

RE: Vipassana mixed with Tai Chi or other practices
Answer
9/15/14 10:19 AM as a reply to Isabel Smith.
Hello Isabel,

I didn't have time to go through the previous replies but I'll punch in a few lines, anyway, in case no one mentioned these aspects to your question.

With a history of 12 years of full time spiritual/meditation practice together with quite intense physical/yoga/martial arts practice, I'd say that there is no problem with combining any sitting practices with physical practices. However, I've seen some people be confused about this because sometimes people read or are told that by doing this series of physical yoga or that tech of qi gong they will get to some lofty spiritual state. But this is confusing the meaning of the practices in different forms. Sitting practices are to work primarily with mental and emotional phenomena (shamatha-vipashyana). Physical practices are to work primarily with the phys body but not excluding the psychology and concentration. The physical practice, in my exp and understanding, does have the same principles of shamatha and vipashyana as sitting does in various forms (classic or tantric application). So, you should understand that tai chi, running or something like that does not interfere or create confusion to your sitting practice, when you know what it is and what it does. I do not know Goenka nor his method but it seems to me that his advice is a bit harsh and misleading.

Here's a short text I've written on the topic some time ago. I did edit it a bit as my view has developed since (but I don't have time now to go through it in detail to tweak some further points). Perhaps it helps: http://guruslight.blogspot.fi/2013/07/shamatha-and-vipashyana.html

Cheers,
Baba