| | re Derek Cameron (10/4/14 12:29PM as a reply to masa)
masa: "Would it ever occur to them [SE or anagami] on their own some aspect of their insight was incomplete?" Cameron: "Maybe, maybe not."
To interpret Cameron's cryptic comment (not assuming this interpretation is his):
1) "Maybe" -- In a traditional Therevadan sangha, the attainer would most likely clearly discern the characteristics of some contact with Nibbana (that defines path moments), but would also notice that lobha (proliferated attraction*) and dosa (proliferated aversion*) were still present (even when more attenuated in the case of ananagami). And presence of any defilement would be recognized as remaining presence of moha (ignorance, delusion). This, by the 10-fetter model, plus, no doubt, feedback from his/her mentor(s) would seem to assure awareness of incompletion.
* I use this rather strange characterization "proliferated attraction/aversion" rather than more traditional, s/w extreme translations, e.g. "lust","hatred", to indicate a more general meaning; i.e. "proliferated" indicating some degree of reaction, and attraction/aversion meaning the basic vedana ('feeling-tone') quality, which is given, persists in experience no matter what degree of attainment.
2) "Maybe not" -- In some modern interpretations, which, ostensibly pragmatically, question the ideal perfection implied by the traditional interpretation of complete 'uprooting' of the 10-fetters, various challenges of life still arise in problematic ways. Hence possible uncertainty. Possibly lack of a close mentor relationship could aggravate this uncertainty, where readily accessible, reliable feedback from a skilled mentor (one proficient to a level above one's own) would help clarify things.
a) Than-Geof wrote a piece ("The Power of Judgment" 2011-2013, available at accesstoinsight) that goes into the complexities of recognizing and working out of one's own delusion (for anyone not yet 'established' in avijja / non-ignorance-wisdom), and the traditional advice that one should seek the help of a trusted mentor ('friend' –mitta). Namely, the ins and outs of how the person in need, as well as the potential mentor, can go about discerning whether the relationship works well. Than-Geof, as usual, citing various Sutta passages providing possible clues.
b) In another writing ("Lost in Quotation", also available at accesstoinsight) Than-Geof analyzes the famous Kalama Sutta, which is quoted by some in the form: "…Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, … or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.'
And some quote this interpreting it to mean that one should decide what to believe not on the basis of some external authority, but rather on the basis of 'what works', one's own 'common sense.'
Than-Geof notes that the complete quotation runs:"…Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical deduction, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.'
And he argues, referring to the phrases that he highlights in bold face, "you can't simply take your own ideas of "what works" as a trustworthy standard. After all, you [being deluded] can easily side with your greed, aversion, or delusion, setting your standards too low. So to check against this tendency, the Buddha recommends that you also take into consideration the views of the wise, for you'll never grow until you allow your standards to be challenged by theirs." (emphasis and […] added)
TG then goes on to discuss the challenge of how to judge how one can determine who "the wise" might be, using much the same logic as in "The Power of Judgment" (above). |