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The meditation experiences of Jhanananda

The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
jhanananda jhana kundlini charism
Answer
2/21/11 2:28 PM
I began the study of dharma and a daily meditation practice in the tradition of Advaita Vedanta in 1973. A year and a half later I was introduced to the practice of Vipassana Meditation in a ten-day meditation retreat that was led by Robert Hover, who was a student of the Burmese teacher Sayagi U Ba Khin. I have attended about 15 ten-day meditation retreats, and about 40 three to five day retreats from a number of meditation teachers in various traditions. I have also spent 90 days in a Kundalini yoga ashram some years ago (1974), and completed two 3-year solo wilderness retreats (1974-1977 & 2003-2006). I have had a daily meditation practice for almost the whole of the intervening years. The contemplative traditions that I have practiced have been primarily Advaita Vedanta and Theravadan Buddhism. I have recently found an excellent complement to these traditions in Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

The symptoms that I am experiencing in meditation are: within a few minutes of engaging in the observation of the tactile field and breath, my mind begins to settle to stillness, which I understand is the tranquility of the second jhana. Shortly this stillness becomes stable and unmoved by sensory or mental state variations, which I believe is the equanimity of the third jhana. At this point awareness seems to expand, and my concentration becomes more focused, and a kind of energy builds gently along my spine, as my meditation deepens. This energy seems to be consistent with how the terms Kundalini, vîrya, viriya are described in Asian canonical literature.

Soon after the calm is established a series of sensations follow soon after. Typically the sensations I have, other than full body awareness of the surface of my body and the internal organ functions, muscles, circulatory system and connective tissue, is primarily a general full-body vibrator sensation, which is often concentrated in my hands, feet, chest, throat, forehead and top of the head. These phenomena are consistent with how the upper four chakras and stigmata are described by various mystics.

It is my understanding that the generalized full-body vibratory sensation is the aura. The localized concentrations of sensation appear to correspond to the chakras of the yoga tradition. These vibratory sensations are the most dominant tactile sensations, and they are often accompanied by a very loud ringing sound, which often has sufficient intensity as to be nearly deafening. The sound often goes through a series of frequency changes from a cicada like chirping, to ringing, to a roaring, like rain, or a water fall, or perhaps the ocean at a distance, to a high pitched whine, or ring. Many mystics have described such sounds.

There is typically a very gentle bobbing of my head and a gentle swaying of my torso to accompany the above sensations. The bobbing and swaying seems purely autonomic, and appears to be an elastic rebound response in the frame of the body caused by blood pulsing in my legs, torso and neck without the counter balancing effect of tension in the muscles, which have become relaxed, and therefore don't hold the neck and torso in check. I understand this spontaneous movement is called a ‘kriya’ in the yoga traditions.

Often shock waves like a deep shiver also run up my spine at intermittent intervals, at which time my fingers and lips may twitch and my torso becomes very erect, which causes the period of the oscillations of my torso and neck to become more rapid in the same way a guitar string oscillates more rapidly if drawn taut.

In company with the shock waves is usually a sensation of intense ecstasy, which culminates in a sense of luminosity. I believe this is what has been described as kundalini in the yoga literature.

Since I practiced Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagi U Ba Khin, I was introduced to contemplative practice in various forms of body scanning in the tactile field. Over the years I have modified my meditation practice as a consequence of experience, deepening contemplation and broadening awareness.

I have found that scanning is no longer necessary for me, because scanning, like any other concentration technique, seems to serve the primary purpose of occupying the mind until it comes to rest. Since I can settle my mind fairly quickly, I have found I can simply observe the tactile field as a totality without having to force the mind to observe it.

Once I'm observing the whole of the tactile field, then this whole-body vibratory sensation soon emerge. Once I am established in observing the tactile field, I begin to observe the other sense fields simultaneously. I usually add the sense field of sound next, which eventually becomes, as I have said a ringing.

The ringing is really much more a combination of sounds such as ringing, whirring, buzzing, chirping, and a rushing sound much like the wind or a waterfall all at the same time. I believe the ringing in the ears is to the auditory sense, as the vibrations are to the tactile sense. I have found the other senses have their own manifestations of unique expression during these deep absorption states as well. Therefore these charismatic phenomena appear to manifest in their own unique way in each sense field.

In the progression of my daily meditation sits I eventually observe all of the sense fields at once. Simultaneously observing the manifestations of charismatic phenomena in all of the sense fields becomes something like witnessing a symphony of pleasant sensations in all six of the sense fields.

From examining various chapters of the Pali canon, it seems that the trajectory toward enlightenment is to go through a series of altered states of consciousness, which the Buddha called “jhana,” which are a subset of “samadhi.” The descriptions of spiritual ecstasy and enlightenment that are provided by the various mystics seem to indicate that one enters altered states of consciousness, which are absorption states through which we must pass to arrive at nirvana, which is annihilation of the self in the infinite. With little else to go on, my solution has been to just go with the surges of energy and other charismatic manifestations, and to continue to experience the various expansion and unification of awareness and annihilation of identity, which occur for me at random intervals during meditation.

To go deeper into equanimity I have found relinquishing grasping is essential. I have found that grasping clearly hinders the progression of the absorption states, so relinquishing grasping has been central to my practice. In fact I have found that a grasping "event" immediately precedes a mind event, or ripple of disturbance on the otherwise quiet flow of my awareness. Consequently, my mindfulness practice for these decades has been primarily focused upon observing the rising and falling of grasping and aversion in response to the senses, consequently I have endeavored to relinquish my hold or obstruction on the senses.

During the progression of my meditation there is often a bit of a shift in my focus and my breathing at discrete moments, which I flow with spontaneously in the progression of my deepening absorption and corresponding expanding awareness. These shifts in focus and breathing seem to precede the surges of energy up my spine, which can be of sufficient force as to give me the sensation as though I'm going to be lifted off the meditation pillow.

It does seem at times, that if the energy rising up my spine got anymore intense, my brain would pop out of the top of my head. It can be a bit disconcerting at times, but that's when I have decided to practice non-grasping to even the body.

As this energy surges up my spine I undergo a series of shifts in focus, which eventually concludes in a wall of light, which impinges on my psyche to the point of overwhelming my identity. At that moment it seems even identity must be relinquished as well. It seems that the trajectory is to get to a place where one doesn't cling to anything, not even to identity. It is this experience that seems to be what the historic Buddha called unification of consciousness.

I have been meditating 4 to 6 hours a day since 2000. Every time I sit in meditation I enjoy some part or all of the above described sensations. I have found that when I begin and end each day with these pleasant sensations my days and nights are filled with the charismatic sensations, as well as pleasant thoughts, feelings and emotions.

I fill each moment with mindful observation of sensation, and I attentively avoid grasping and aversion. Consequently equanimity pervades or permeates my waking and sleep state. In fact from the moment I first become aware of this body until the moment that sleep overcomes this body I am filled with more happiness and contentment than I have ever felt before. And I am always filled with the sweetest sensation of love, as though I have a new romance, although there is no object for that love. And, I seem to be completely free of any anxiety, neuroses or addictive behavior.

This practice and these sensations have even pervaded my sleep state, because I no longer seem to go unconscious when I rest at night. As I rest the body at night I observe mindfully the progression of my repose, which is a succession of deepening relaxation, and deepening breath, in which I travel out-of-body to various domains of existence, and from which my awareness reemerges at about 4 to 5 AM each morning, at which time I sit to meditate for an hour or so before I begin my day.

The pervasion of my awareness into my sleep domain has also produced a kind of shattering of my sense of reality, as well as my dependence upon a linear time/space domain. My dreams are often so lucid as to be indistinguishable from what we call "waking reality." Consequently, even though I "awake" every morning to this "reality, I have also "awakened" to other seamlessly real and equally engaging realities which are not in this space/time domain, so I call them out-of-body experiences in other dimensions. The consequence is that I cannot with conviction state that this reality is any more real, than the other realities that I encounter. I believe this is of course the realization of much of the material within Advaita Vedanta and Mahamudra, in which the very nature of reality is called into question.

It is a bit disconcerting not knowing to which reality I can "rely" upon, or to which I will find myself in the next moment. This lack of reliance upon a fixed time/space domain has produced a lack of dependence on external references, which has produced a great ambivalence toward the objects of the senses. As a consequence I seem to have no ambition for anything in life. I have no interest in a career. I do not care for an ideal relationship, or acquiring progeny. I have no interest in acquiring anything, such as land, a home or wealth. I have no thought toward acquiring wealth, or a retirement. I do not even care if I get sick, or how long I live. Death could come in the next moment, and it would mean nothing to me. And, interestingly enough, I have no fear of the dark.

Another interesting property of my life, is I can not seem to gain my balance. I often feel ever so slightly off balance. I believe this vertigo is related to the heightened awareness I have developed for my senses. One of the most over-looked senses is our kinesthetic sense, which is where we acquire our sense of balance, and yet it is critical to our species method of bipedal locomotion. I believe the sense of euphoria one experiences during the ecstasies is a heightened awareness of the sense of balance. It is this, perhaps overly acute, awareness of the sense of balance that keeps me feeling slightly off balance almost as though I am drunk.

I am 58 years old and a single parent of two children, who are now grown. In the past my spiritual practice had been something that I had arranged in the quiet times after the children and spouse went off to sleep. The spouse left long ago. My children have all grown and left home. Since then, my energies have been fully directed toward my contemplative life, the guidance of contemplatives who have similar attainments as I do, and the teaching of others how to achieve what I have found in meditation.

May you begin and end each day with bliss, and may your days and nights be filled with joy.

Jeffrey S. Brooks (Jhanananda)
February, 2011, Prescott, AZ, USA

The following is excerpt from My Experience of Meditation (July 23, 2004, last updated February 2011)
Experience of Contemplation

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 7:24 AM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Hi Jeffrey,

Some years ago, I came across your site - around the same time as I also discovered MCTB and Nanavira's writings and so on. I was doing quite a bit of research.

I admit that, back then, I wrote you off as a "jhana junkie". That was before I had any taste of the jhanas myself, or had any solid notions, based on my own experience, about the developmental process, so that was quite a premature thing to do - but I had to start with something.

So thanks for the concise report. Let's see what I can recognize from your descriptions: here on the DhO, we have a fairly standardized vocabulary, and that may make us unaware of the fact that we often talk about different things when using the same words, so an "outside perspective" like yours should shake things up a bit. I hope others join in as well.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
I began the study of dharma and a daily meditation practice in the tradition of Advaita Vedanta in 1973. A year and a half later I was introduced to the practice of Vipassana Meditation in a ten-day meditation retreat that was led by Robert Hover, who was a student of the Burmese teacher Sayagi U Ba Khin. I have attended about 15 ten-day meditation retreats, and about 40 three to five day retreats from a number of meditation teachers in various traditions. I have also spent 90 days in a Kundalini yoga ashram some years ago (1974), and completed two 3-year solo wilderness retreats (1974-1977 & 2003-2006). I have had a daily meditation practice for almost the whole of the intervening years. The contemplative traditions that I have practiced have been primarily Advaita Vedanta and Theravadan Buddhism. I have recently found an excellent complement to these traditions in Mahamudra and Dzogchen.


I learned some meditation techniques as a child (relaxation stuff along the lines of PMR or autogenic training), liked to play mind games as a child. Had a few "mystical" experiences as a child and later as a teen-ager, while on the out-skirts of charismatic Christianity. Swung over to materialism (but not reductionism - still curious about consciousness, perception, and identity) around the age of twenty, eventually got back to meditation, this time using Buddhist techniques in my mid-thirties. Haven't done any retreats except a few very short (a few days) solo ones - I practise whenever I find the time. Oh, and I read most of the sutta pitaka (out of sheer stubbornness) during these last few years, along with assorted Buddhist and mystical/spiritual writers, remaining atheist all the time (in the sense of "not in possession of any gods").

The symptoms that I am experiencing in meditation are: within a few minutes of engaging in the observation of the tactile field and breath, my mind begins to settle to stillness, which I understand is the tranquility of the second jhana. Shortly this stillness becomes stable and unmoved by sensory or mental state variations, which I believe is the equanimity of the third jhana. At this point awareness seems to expand, and my concentration becomes more focused, and a kind of energy builds gently along my spine, as my meditation deepens. This energy seems to be consistent with how the terms Kundalini, vîrya, viriya are described in Asian canonical literature.


Interesting the way you locate the jhanas. I associate the stillness with first jhana, and the stability and expansion and rising kundalini sensations with second.

Soon after the calm is established a series of sensations follow soon after. Typically the sensations I have, other than full body awareness of the surface of my body and the internal organ functions, muscles, circulatory system and connective tissue, is primarily a general full-body vibrator sensation, which is often concentrated in my hands, feet, chest, throat, forehead and top of the head. These phenomena are consistent with how the upper four chakras and stigmata are described by various mystics.


Body surface stuff indicates third jhana in my way of associating these. Harsh vibrations and chakras acting up, too.

It is my understanding that the generalized full-body vibratory sensation is the aura. The localized concentrations of sensation appear to correspond to the chakras of the yoga tradition. These vibratory sensations are the most dominant tactile sensations, and they are often accompanied by a very loud ringing sound, which often has sufficient intensity as to be nearly deafening. The sound often goes through a series of frequency changes from a cicada like chirping, to ringing, to a roaring, like rain, or a water fall, or perhaps the ocean at a distance, to a high pitched whine, or ring. Many mystics have described such sounds.


I get the sound all the time I am conscious. It's usually in the background, but I can perceive it at will any time, except in very loud surroundings. When meditating, the sound comes into the foreground in what I call the fourth jhana.

There is typically a very gentle bobbing of my head and a gentle swaying of my torso to accompany the above sensations. The bobbing and swaying seems purely autonomic, and appears to be an elastic rebound response in the frame of the body caused by blood pulsing in my legs, torso and neck without the counter balancing effect of tension in the muscles, which have become relaxed, and therefore don't hold the neck and torso in check. I understand this spontaneous movement is called a ‘kriya’ in the yoga traditions.


Not sure if I get that. There certainly is something weird going on with the sense of orientation in what I term 4th jhana. The most common sensation I get is a hard to describe "turning clockwise and counter-clockwise simultaneously", like a narrow tume inserted into a wide one, and the two rotating in different directions.

Often shock waves like a deep shiver also run up my spine at intermittent intervals, at which time my fingers and lips may twitch and my torso becomes very erect, which causes the period of the oscillations of my torso and neck to become more rapid in the same way a guitar string oscillates more rapidly if drawn taut.


Sometimes I seem to enter jhana while dreaming - I've woken up to similar shock waves. Never in sitting meditation, yet.

In company with the shock waves is usually a sensation of intense ecstasy, which culminates in a sense of luminosity. I believe this is what has been described as kundalini in the yoga literature.

Since I practiced Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagi U Ba Khin, I was introduced to contemplative practice in various forms of body scanning in the tactile field. Over the years I have modified my meditation practice as a consequence of experience, deepening contemplation and broadening awareness.

I have found that scanning is no longer necessary for me, because scanning, like any other concentration technique, seems to serve the primary purpose of occupying the mind until it comes to rest. Since I can settle my mind fairly quickly, I have found I can simply observe the tactile field as a totality without having to force the mind to observe it.

Once I'm observing the whole of the tactile field, then this whole-body vibratory sensation soon emerge. Once I am established in observing the tactile field, I begin to observe the other sense fields simultaneously. I usually add the sense field of sound next, which eventually becomes, as I have said a ringing.


Yeah... what happens to the sense of observing itself when these fields integrate?

The ringing is really much more a combination of sounds such as ringing, whirring, buzzing, chirping, and a rushing sound much like the wind or a waterfall all at the same time. I believe the ringing in the ears is to the auditory sense, as the vibrations are to the tactile sense. I have found the other senses have their own manifestations of unique expression during these deep absorption states as well. Therefore these charismatic phenomena appear to manifest in their own unique way in each sense field.


The sound is interesting, I agree. Actually, what I call "vibrations" are just the small, rapid variations in the sound and in tactile sensations.

In the progression of my daily meditation sits I eventually observe all of the sense fields at once. Simultaneously observing the manifestations of charismatic phenomena in all of the sense fields becomes something like witnessing a symphony of pleasant sensations in all six of the sense fields.


... and then? I have found that fusing the observation with the field, so that the effort (for lack of a better word - intention maybe? Directed attention?) and the receptivity approach really closely, become like two sides of the same thing, has remarkable consequences.

How about the formless Jhanas?

Have you called up jhanas in random order?

From examining various chapters of the Pali canon, it seems that the trajectory toward enlightenment is to go through a series of altered states of consciousness, which the Buddha called “jhana,” which are a subset of “samadhi.” The descriptions of spiritual ecstasy and enlightenment that are provided by the various mystics seem to indicate that one enters altered states of consciousness, which are absorption states through which we must pass to arrive at nirvana, which is annihilation of the self in the infinite. With little else to go on, my solution has been to just go with the surges of energy and other charismatic manifestations, and to continue to experience the various expansion and unification of awareness and annihilation of identity, which occur for me at random intervals during meditation.


Have you tried using a kind of curious inquisitive attention to "sweep" the energetic phenomena in the same way body sweeping sweeps body phenomena? I have found that to be very revealing, as well.

To go deeper into equanimity I have found relinquishing grasping is essential. I have found that grasping clearly hinders the progression of the absorption states, so relinquishing grasping has been central to my practice. In fact I have found that a grasping "event" immediately precedes a mind event, or ripple of disturbance on the otherwise quiet flow of my awareness.


It's that way, isn't it? When letting the Jhanas progress on their own, I get that strongest just between what I term first and second jhana.

Consequently, my mindfulness practice for these decades has been primarily focused upon observing the rising and falling of grasping and aversion in response to the senses, consequently I have endeavored to relinquish my hold or obstruction on the senses.

During the progression of my meditation there is often a bit of a shift in my focus and my breathing at discrete moments, which I flow with spontaneously in the progression of my deepening absorption and corresponding expanding awareness. These shifts in focus and breathing seem to precede the surges of energy up my spine, which can be of sufficient force as to give me the sensation as though I'm going to be lifted off the meditation pillow.


I'm familiar with the breath doing stuff like that, usually around what I call second jhana.

It does seem at times, that if the energy rising up my spine got anymore intense, my brain would pop out of the top of my head. It can be a bit disconcerting at times, but that's when I have decided to practice non-grasping to even the body.

As this energy surges up my spine I undergo a series of shifts in focus, which eventually concludes in a wall of light, which impinges on my psyche to the point of overwhelming my identity. At that moment it seems even identity must be relinquished as well. It seems that the trajectory is to get to a place where one doesn't cling to anything, not even to identity. It is this experience that seems to be what the historic Buddha called unification of consciousness.


Are you referring to what is also known as "one-pointedness"?

In my way of talking about this stuff, there is, orthogonal to the progression of the jhanas, a second "axis" designating the quality of concentration, from momentary dips into one-pointed concentration, then a more prolonged "threshold" or "proximity" to this, then the enduring one-pointedness - this is how I use the traditional terms "khanika", "upacara", and "appana" samadhi.

How would you describe your mental state when emerging form what you call "unification consciousness"?

I have been meditating 4 to 6 hours a day since 2000. Every time I sit in meditation I enjoy some part or all of the above described sensations. I have found that when I begin and end each day with these pleasant sensations my days and nights are filled with the charismatic sensations, as well as pleasant thoughts, feelings and emotions.

I fill each moment with mindful observation of sensation, and I attentively avoid grasping and aversion. Consequently equanimity pervades or permeates my waking and sleep state. In fact from the moment I first become aware of this body until the moment that sleep overcomes this body I am filled with more happiness and contentment than I have ever felt before. And I am always filled with the sweetest sensation of love, as though I have a new romance, although there is no object for that love. And, I seem to be completely free of any anxiety, neuroses or addictive behavior.


How would you describe your mode of perception during the day? In what way has it changed during the unfolding of your practice over the past thirty years?

This practice and these sensations have even pervaded my sleep state, because I no longer seem to go unconscious when I rest at night. As I rest the body at night I observe mindfully the progression of my repose, which is a succession of deepening relaxation, and deepening breath, in which I travel out-of-body to various domains of existence, and from which my awareness reemerges at about 4 to 5 AM each morning, at which time I sit to meditate for an hour or so before I begin my day.

The pervasion of my awareness into my sleep domain has also produced a kind of shattering of my sense of reality, as well as my dependence upon a linear time/space domain. My dreams are often so lucid as to be indistinguishable from what we call "waking reality." Consequently, even though I "awake" every morning to this "reality, I have also "awakened" to other seamlessly real and equally engaging realities which are not in this space/time domain, so I call them out-of-body experiences in other dimensions. The consequence is that I cannot with conviction state that this reality is any more real, than the other realities that I encounter. I believe this is of course the realization of much of the material within Advaita Vedanta and Mahamudra, in which the very nature of reality is called into question.

It is a bit disconcerting not knowing to which reality I can "rely" upon, or to which I will find myself in the next moment. This lack of reliance upon a fixed time/space domain has produced a lack of dependence on external references, which has produced a great ambivalence toward the objects of the senses. As a consequence I seem to have no ambition for anything in life. I have no interest in a career. I do not care for an ideal relationship, or acquiring progeny. I have no interest in acquiring anything, such as land, a home or wealth. I have no thought toward acquiring wealth, or a retirement. I do not even care if I get sick, or how long I live. Death could come in the next moment, and it would mean nothing to me. And, interestingly enough, I have no fear of the dark.


Interesting. Maybe Nathan will chime in. Until he does, what do you make of his description in this thread (he posts as "triple think")?

A switch from a semblance of powers to real powers

Another interesting property of my life, is I can not seem to gain my balance. I often feel ever so slightly off balance. I believe this vertigo is related to the heightened awareness I have developed for my senses. One of the most over-looked senses is our kinesthetic sense, which is where we acquire our sense of balance, and yet it is critical to our species method of bipedal locomotion. I believe the sense of euphoria one experiences during the ecstasies is a heightened awareness of the sense of balance. It is this, perhaps overly acute, awareness of the sense of balance that keeps me feeling slightly off balance almost as though I am drunk.


Some meditation-related phenomena can be an awful lot like neurological issues - the inner sound sounds a lot like tinnitus; some nimittas could also be migraine auras, etc. A co-worker, who had a stroke recently, which affected his cerebellum and consequently his balance, was also describing it as "like being slightly drunk all the time". I'm not diagnosing anything, mind you - your description just rang a bell.

I am 58 years old and a single parent of two children, who are now grown. In the past my spiritual practice had been something that I had arranged in the quiet times after the children and spouse went off to sleep. The spouse left long ago. My children have all grown and left home. Since then, my energies have been fully directed toward my contemplative life, the guidance of contemplatives who have similar attainments as I do, and the teaching of others how to achieve what I have found in meditation.

May you begin and end each day with bliss, and may your days and nights be filled with joy.


Thanks!

I hope you like it here on the Dharma Overground.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 8:03 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:

Jeffrey S Brooks:
It does seem at times, that if the energy rising up my spine got anymore intense, my brain would pop out of the top of my head. It can be a bit disconcerting at times, but that's when I have decided to practice non-grasping to even the body.

As this energy surges up my spine I undergo a series of shifts in focus, which eventually concludes in a wall of light, which impinges on my psyche to the point of overwhelming my identity. At that moment it seems even identity must be relinquished as well. It seems that the trajectory is to get to a place where one doesn't cling to anything, not even to identity. It is this experience that seems to be what the historic Buddha called unification of consciousness.


Are you referring to what is also known as "one-pointedness"?


To me this sounded like 6th jhana, the sphere of boundless consciousness - I associate that state with a wall of light whose edges stretch to wherever space stretched in the 5th jhana, one where everywhere I turn I only see my own consciousness - and then going to 7th jhana where the consciousness is relinquished to go into sphere of nothingness. Does that sound accurate at all, Jeffrey? (Do you notice space before and nothingness after?)

I'm also curious if you've experienced cessation in any way, aka Fruition or Nirodha Samapatti. Also do any of the stages described in the Progress of Insight sound familiar to you?

From what I understand, simply attaining these jhanic states is not equivalent to enlightenment. The key is to investigate the phenomena that make up these states and the fruits of that investigation is enlightenment. See MN 111 where Sariputta goes up the jhanas, during each jhanic state he investigates what it's made up of:

Buddha:
Whatever qualities there are in the [fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;[3] singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention —] he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.


Finally after exiting the 8th jhana he enters cessation, and upon exiting mindfully from that attainment, seeing with discernment,
his fermentations were totally ended - and it was the seeing with discernment that allowed that to happen, not merely entering & exiting the cessation.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
clairaudience charismatic charism jhanananda jhana nimitta
Answer
2/22/11 11:08 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Hi Jeffrey,

Some years ago, I came across your site ...I admit that, back then, I wrote you off as a "jhana junkie". That was before I had any taste of the jhanas myself, or had any solid notions, based on my own experience, about the developmental process, so that was quite a premature thing to do - but I had to start with something.


Hello Flroian, it is a pleasure to reconnect with you and receive a respectful response after so many years. I have been called "jhana junkie," “Bliss Bunny” and many other disrespectful terms in the 10 years that I have taken my work to the web. It is remarkable to me that Buddhists are so disrespectful of those who choose to lead a rigorous self-aware contemplative life, but I just mark these kinds of responses up to jhana-envy. It is good to find that you have matured since we last exchanged messages.

So thanks for the concise report. Let's see what I can recognize from your descriptions: here on the DhO, we have a fairly standardized vocabulary, and that may make us unaware of the fact that we often talk about different things when using the same words, so an "outside perspective" like yours should shake things up a bit. I hope others join in as well.


One of the things to get about jhana, is there is no agreement about what it is. Mainstream Buddhists interpret jhana and samadhi as just “concentration.” This only proves to me that these people have never experienced jhana, because the experience of jhana is ecstatic, blissful and joyful, and the suttas support this in defining it with terms like ‘piti’ and ‘sukha.’

Interesting the way you locate the jhanas. I associate the stillness with first jhana, and the stability and expansion and rising kundalini sensations with second.


So, while you interpret the first jhana as the stilling of the mind, don’t you think the tranquility (passaddhi) that defines the second jhana in the suttas is the stilling of the mind? If not, then what is tranquility (passaddhi), if it is not the stilling of the mind?

Body surface stuff indicates third jhana in my way of associating these. Harsh vibrations and chakras acting up, too...I get the sound all the time I am conscious. It's usually in the background, but I can perceive it at will any time, except in very loud surroundings. When meditating, the sound comes into the foreground in what I call the fourth jhana.


I agree with you that the third jhana is characterized by “Body surface stuff,” chakras, aura, etc. However, I find it is really various sensory phenomena that are not the product of sensory stimulation, and occurs in all of the senses, so it could also include such phenomena of visual or auditory nature, etc., as the sound you mentioned.

I found that if I use these phenomena as my meditation object as they arise in meditation, then I am taken deeper into contemplation (samadhi). And, like you I find these sounds accompany me all day long, but even in loud situations, such as emergency vehicle sirens. But, I find all of the charismatic phenomena accompanies me all day long, and I find it very comforting.

You mentioned kundalini just arising in the first jhana. Now, I study charismatic phenomena cross-culturally, and I happen to know that almost everyone who uses the term ‘kundalini these days, since Gopi Krishna’s work, has no idea what kundalini is. So, I did some research on the subject and found that the Sanskrit term “kundalini” did not appear in early Hindu literature. It came much later.

The term that is commonly translated as ‘kundalini’ from the Yoga Sutras and Bhagavad Gita is ‘viriya.’ If you are familiar with Pali, then you will know that the term ‘vîrya’ appears in the suttas and is commonly translated as ‘energy.’ As a rigorous contemplative, who has spent a great deal of time in the 8 stages of samadhi I know that energy builds from the first jhana and becomes exponentially powerful as one moves from the fourth jhana and into the fifth samadhi. You may find reading my essay, and/or viewing my video on this subject at the following URLs:

Energy, Kundalini, vîrya, viriya Understanding the Charismatic Experience

Kundalini Video:

Not sure if I get that. There certainly is something weird going on with the sense of orientation in what I term 4th jhana. The most common sensation I get is a hard to describe "turning clockwise and counter-clockwise simultaneously", like a narrow tume inserted into a wide one, and the two rotating in different directions.


Yes, one of the kinesthetic charismatic phenomena that I experience is the "turning clockwise and counter-clockwise simultaneously" that you described. And, I agree with the kinesthetic charismatic phenomena seems to arise most notably in the fourth jhana; however, I experience it all day long now that I meditate several hours every day. I also found that the kinesthetic charismatic phenomena seems to be related to the OOBE.

Sometimes I seem to enter jhana while dreaming - I've woken up to similar shock waves. Never in sitting meditation, yet.


Yes, I too have often “dreamt” I was meditating, and doing so took me into deep ecstasies (samadhi). One who meditates a lot is likely to take it into the “dream-scape.” Just as one who does anything a lot will take it into the “dream-scape.” Thus, a dedicated rigorous contemplative is likely to take that contemplative life into the sleep domain. I believe this is precisely is what is meant by the “death-less (amatta) in the suttas.

Yeah... what happens to the sense of observing itself when these fields integrate?


I find that most contemplative traditions these days simply do not understand the 8 stages of contemplation (samadhi). So, they make it all much too cognitive.

I believe the important thing to get about meditation is that it is not an end in itself, but is a cognitive mental exercise that is intended to lead to an altered state of consciousness that is characterized by the cessation of the cognitive processes and the arising of ecstatic and charismatic phenomena, which was called ‘contemplation’ by the Christian mystics, like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, and ‘samadhi’ by Buddhist and Hindu yogis. Calling samadhi ‘concentration’ is a classic example of how this altered state of consciousness is commonly misinterpreted in Buddhism today.

Thus, while contemplation (samadhi) is an altered state of consciousness, it is not without awareness. In fact I find in this state I am hyper-self-aware, but I am not engaged at that time in some cognitive mental exercise of body scanning, or reflecting upon the three marks, etc.

How about the formless Jhanas?


The suttas do not use the term “formless” or “arupa-Jhanas.” This comes from the commentaries Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga. In the suttas they are referred with a common suffix ‘-ayatana’ so I call them the ‘ayatanas.’ Yes, I have experienced the immaterial domains or ayatanas many times. And, since I meditate when the body sleeps at night every night, then I spend all night in the ayatanas.

Have you called up jhanas in random order? ... Have you tried using a kind of curious inquisitive attention to "sweep" the energetic phenomena in the same way body sweeping sweeps body phenomena? I have found that to be very revealing, as well.”


When I meditate, no, I just drop into the fourth jhana; however, decades ago when I was beginning to experience these phenomena, then I found the 4 jhanas were linear, meaning the first led to the second and so on. Your question also suggests moving about the jhanas as if they were a mental jungle gym. Now, I find such an interpretation of jhana to be far to cognitive. I find instead my experience of the 8 samadhi states is they are progressively less cognitive. So, I have just meditated for depth for these nearly 40 years, and have always let the process just unfold on its own naturally.

How would you describe your mode of perception during the day? In what way has it changed during the unfolding of your practice over the past thirty years?


My “mode of perception during the day” has been directed toward keeping the mind still, while being self-aware, and especially self-aware of the charismatic phenomena that arises during my daily contemplations (samadhi). Thus, I keep the mind still, and the charisms with me all day long.

Some meditation-related phenomena can be an awful lot like neurological issues - the inner sound sounds a lot like tinnitus; some nimittas could also be migraine auras, etc. A co-worker, who had a stroke recently, which affected his cerebellum and consequently his balance, was also describing it as "like being slightly drunk all the time". I'm not diagnosing anything, mind you - your description just rang a bell.


I agree with you, there are various neurological conditions that are similar to the charisms. In fact the condition “Saint Vitas Dance," was named because a neurologist thought the condition resembled the description of the kriyas that Saint Vitas experienced in his religious ecstasies.

The key here is tinnitus is caused by damage to the hearing apparatus through a head injury, or cold, or flu or loud noises. It typically manifests on one side, and it does not grow stronger during meditation. Whereas, the nimitta, or charisms of sound is not caused by damage to the hearing apparatus, tends to be in both ears, or in the center of the head or in all directions, and becomes louder during meditation. You can read an essay and watch a video on this subject at these URLs.

Clairaudience or Charismatic hearing or the Divine Ear and meditation induced tinnitus (May 9, 2004)
Clairaudience Video:

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 12:15 PM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Jeffrey S Brooks:
One of the things to get about jhana, is there is no agreement about what it is. Mainstream Buddhists interpret jhana and samadhi as just “concentration.” This only proves to me that these people have never experienced jhana, because the experience of jhana is ecstatic, blissful and joyful, and the suttas support this in defining it with terms like ‘piti’ and ‘sukha.’

I agree... they are definitely very distinct altered states (especially formless /ayatana jhanas). I think the understanding of jhana at DhO matches yours more than it matches those who say it's "just concentration". This thread might be interesting to read - it goes into that particular topic a bit ("just concentration") along with many others.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
Now, I study charismatic phenomena cross-culturally
Out of curiosity - whence the term "charismatic"?

Jeffrey S Brooks:
I believe the important thing to get about meditation is that it is not an end in itself, but is a cognitive mental exercise that is intended to lead to an altered state of consciousness that is characterized by the cessation of the cognitive processes and the arising of ecstatic and charismatic phenomena, which was called ‘contemplation’ by the Christian mystics, like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, and ‘samadhi’ by Buddhist and Hindu yogis. Calling samadhi ‘concentration’ is a classic example of how this altered state of consciousness is commonly misinterpreted in Buddhism today.


Hmm here is where I guess I will either agree or disagree with you at the same time, depending on what your goals are. I agree meditation is not an end to itself - there's no point to sit there and meditate for the sake of meditating (with no other goal). And I agree that the goal of concentration meditation is as you said - to lead to an altered state of consciousness that is characterized by the cessation of the cognitive processes and the arising of ecstatic and charismatic phenomena. However, I would not say that accessing these pleasant states of absorption is the end in and of itself... as you noticed, the states of absorption are temporary. The goal would be unbinding... happiness or calmness or whatnot independent of conditions... enlightenment. Thus I would not say the goal of meditation is to access these states, but to become enlightened, and one does that with the help of these states, which help because it puts you in a good position to do something like reflect upon the three marks.

I'm definitely interested in hearing more about your experiences, especially on how you came to eliminate all ten fetters.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 12:47 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
I think Jeffrey has very specific definitions of "meditation", "contemplation" and other terms Claudiu, which may be causing some confusion. I suspect that what he's referring to in the passage you quote is not what is generally meant, loosely, by the term "meditation" but rather has a precise technical meaning to Jeffrey. I could be completely off-base on this, it's just the impression I've gotten ;-)
--Jake

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 2:22 PM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure we even exchanged mails back then, I remember reading your website - if we did, and I offended you, I'm truly sorry.

Regarding jhana-envy: what would the parallel reaction be (analogous to castration anxiety)? Anxiety of losing Jhana? ;)

1st Jhana: I don't equate stilling the mind with first jhana, more the other way around, a stilled/calm/composed, mind is one of the hallmarks of jhana.

Passadhi - isn't that one of the seven factors of awakening, rather than a jhana factor? Have you found a nice way of mapping the Jhanas onto the seven factors? I like finding these deep correspondences a lot, and am curious about what you have discovered.

Dropping straight into 4th Jhana - I'm familiar with that. In fact, the first jhana I ever experienced "hard" was 4th.

Can you say a bit more about those mindstate shifts you experience during meditation? I experience something that might be described like that, and associate it with crossing between individual jhanas, most markedly at the entrance of second.

Viriya, energy, kundalini - I use these words pretty much interchangeably, probably to the horror of kundalini experts.

Yeah, the words meditation and contemplation seem to be used in radically different ways in the various traditions. In Christianity, if I remember correctly, they have reversed roles compared to Buddhism.

Let's talk about the elephant in the living room? You probably noticed that "Mahasi cessation" is a much discussed and reported phenomenon here on DhO. What's your take on this way of framing stream entry and the subsequent paths? Related to this question, how do you interpret suttas where the jhanas (including the ayatana states) are described as some kind of preview of nibbana, enabling one to conjecture about nibbna, but not the real thing? For example Nibbana Sutta, where nibbana doesn't have feelings or any of the "strings of sensuality"?

Cheers,
Florian

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
liberation nibanna jhanananda jhana
Answer
2/22/11 5:48 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Beoman:

To me this sounded like 6th jhana, the sphere of boundless consciousness - I associate that state with a wall of light whose edges stretch to wherever space stretched in the 5th jhana, one where everywhere I turn I only see my own consciousness - and then going to 7th jhana where the consciousness is relinquished to go into sphere of nothingness. Does that sound accurate at all, Jeffrey? (Do you notice space before and nothingness after?)

The problem for any discussion in Buddha dhamma is for all concerned to realize that most concepts bandied about in Buddhism are most likely from the commentaries and/or a doubtful translation of the suttas. For instance interpreting any level of samadhi over the 4th as 'jhana' is purely commentarial, and has no suttic support.

The actually Pali term used in the suttas for the 5th stage of samadhi is 'àkàsà-nañc-àyatanaü.' The prefix 'àkàsà' refers to heaven, which is a plane of existence, which suggests an OOBE to me. The suttas that define this level of samadhi further refer to an immaterial existence and a lack of sensory awareness. However, I agree that the experience that I described above from a strong kundalini rise certainly made me think of the 8th samadhi, which is neither-perception-nor-non-perception, 'Nevasannanasannnayatana,' because there was nothing but a dimensionless light that expanded out to infinity.
I'm also curious if you've experienced cessation in any way, aka Fruition or Nirodha Samapatti. Also do any of the stages described in the Progress of Insight sound familiar to you?

I examined the web page at the link you provided and found I do not have much alignment with it. The idea of "Vipassana Jhanas" is strictly commentarial. There is no sutta that describes "Vipassana Jhanas." And, I have found no reason to believe in such an interpretation based on my 40 years of meditation practice.
From what I understand, simply attaining these jhanic states is not equivalent to enlightenment. The key is to investigate the phenomena that make up these states and the fruits of that investigation is enlightenment. See MN 111 where Sariputta goes up the jhanas, during each jhanic state he investigates what it's made up of:

This interpretation of jhana I find is far too cognitive. I have found nothing in Thanisaro's translation work that suggests he has ever had the experience of jhana, or had an experience that he recognized as jhana. For me, when I am in jhana, I am not investigating anything. At that time I am relinquishing all cognitive processes, so there is very little volition to do anything with the state other than to experience it with awareness.

Secondly, while I will agree that a single experience of any level of samadhi is not fully liberating; however, I have found it can be life changing to the point that the contemplative might be inspired to attempt to live a lifestyle that produces the levels of the 8 samadhis on a regular basis. And, I have found that if one meditates to the point of experiencing the 4th jhana every day, then doing so is very liberating, ie the hindrances are eventually brought to rest; however, I have also found this transformation of character can take years, and is not at all instantaneous.

Also, if you examine the Maha-nidana Sutta (DN-15), you will find a description of 8 liberations (attha vimokkha). You will find those 8 liberations are a description of the upper 7 levels of samadhi, plus full liberation (saññá-vedayita-nirodha), which is Nibanna. This means the upper 3 jhanas are the same as the lower three liberations. Thus, jhana 2-4 are the same as liberations 1-3.
Finally after exiting the 8th jhana he enters cessation, and upon exiting mindfully from that attainment, seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended - and it was the seeing with discernment that allowed that to happen, not merely entering & exiting the cessation.
Again, this interpretation of the suttas is far too cognitive for me to agree with, because when I am in samadhi, I am not thinking or "discerning" anything.

The Pali term that is being translated here as discernment is 'upasampajja.' I translate it as 'investigation.' I am not really happy with that term either, because, as I said above, the experience of samadhi is not cognitive; whereas the terms 'discernment' and 'investigation' suggest a cognitive process at work, which cannot be true.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
meditation sati smrti contemplation jhana samadhi nimitta charism
Answer
2/22/11 6:11 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Jacob Henry St. Onge Casavant:
I think Jeffrey has very specific definitions of "meditation", "contemplation" and other terms Claudiu, which may be causing some confusion. I suspect that what he's referring to in the passage you quote is not what is generally meant, loosely, by the term "meditation" but rather has a precise technical meaning to Jeffrey. I could be completely off-base on this, it's just the impression I've gotten ;-)
--Jake
I agree with Jake here. While I can understand that it can be very confusing to have to learn every teacher's lexicon; however, I have an English degree, and I have studied the major mystics of the major religions, so I am very specific in my use of terminology; however, I find I have to disagree with many terms that are used by Buddhist translators. So, let me define my terms:

Meditation = 'sati' (Pali), 'smrti' (Sanskrit). Meditation is a cognitive mental exercise of concentration and mindful, self-awareness.

Contemplation = 'jhana' (Pali) + samadhi (Sanskrit). Contemplation is an altered state of consciousness that is characterized by ecstatic and charismatic phenomena, such as bliss, joy and ecstasy. I use this term in the same way Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross used it and Patanjali and Siddhartha Gautama used samadhi, and jhana by Siddhartha Gautama.

Charism, charismatic = jhana-nimitta (Pali). Sensory phenomena that is not the product of sensory stimulation, and it arises from leading a contemplative life that produces Contemplation. Therefore Charisms require the presence of Contemplation.

Concentration = a cognitive state of applied attention upon an object, process, or concept. It is not Contemplation, jhana, or samadhi, but is a reasonable interpretation or aspect of sati and smrti.

Insight = 'vipassana' (Sanskrit). Insight is a subjective state that is intuitive and revelatory, and not at all cognitive. It is the product of attaining Contemplation. Insight (vipassana) is not a meditation technique that was described by the Buddha. There is no place in the suttas where the term 'vipassana' refers to a meditation technique.

Shamata (Sanskrit) = is a synonym for 'jhana' (Pali) and samadhi (Sanskrit), therefore it refers to Contemplation. Shamata is not a meditation technique that was described by the Buddha. There is no place in the suttas where the term 'Shamata' refers to a meditation technique.

Fruit of Attainment = phala (Sanskrit) The Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2) describes a number of fruits that are the product of following the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. Shamata and vipassana are two of those fruits (phala). They are not paths (magga).

Path = magga (Pali) a path is a method or technique or lifestyle. It is different from a Fruit of Attainment. Path (Magga) does not at all mean Fruit of Attainment (phala). Path leads to Fruit of Attainment (phala) but they are not the same thing.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 6:16 PM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Jeffrey S Brooks:
The problem for any discussion in Buddha dhamma is for all concerned to realize that most concepts bandied about in Buddhism are most likely from the commentaries and/or a doubtful translation of the suttas. For instance interpreting any level of samadhi over the 4th as 'jhana' is purely commentarial, and has no suttic support.

No doubt. I'm speaking from personal experience here. I think we are splitting hairs when you say ayatana and we say formless realms, and you say they're not jhana and we say they are. That is, we're talking about the same thing. But I'll endeavor to use your terminology when corresponding with you.

What is the difference though? I mean, what exactly is wrong about calling the 5th-8th samadhis 'jhanas'? Meaning, in what way is saying so confusing, which confusion is alleviated by using different terminology? (Or is it a "The Buddha called it this so that's what I will"? That's fine; I'm just speaking from a practical point of view so we can communicate more clearly.)

Jeffrey S Brooks:
However, I agree that the experience that I described above from a strong kundalini rise certainly made me think of the 8th samadhi, which is neither-perception-nor-non-perception, 'Nevasannanasannnayatana,' because there was nothing but a dimensionless light that expanded out to infinity.

I strongly disagree. In the 8th samadhi you have already abandoned those things from the lower samadhis, including all perceptions of form, of space, of consciousness, and of nothingness. If you describe a dimensionless light expanding out to infinity, you not only definitely had perception (and not neither-perception-nor-non-percecption), but also light and a conception of infinity, etc. I can't describe the 8th samadhi very well though so perhaps someone else who has can chime in.

Jeffery S Brooks:
I examined the web page at the link you provided and found I do not have much alignment with it. The idea of "Vipassana Jhanas" is strictly commentarial. There is no sutta that describes "Vipassana Jhanas." And, I have found no reason to believe in such an interpretation based on my 40 years of meditation practice.

Do you simply mean to say that you don't believe those states exist? Or that they do, but they're something that the Buddha never talked about, and therefore a false path? What is your take on cessation? The suttas definitely talk about cessation. I mean total cessation, nirvana, etc., not just the temporary cessation of certain mental factors that getting deep into samadhi accomplishes.

Jeffrey S Brooks:

This interpretation of jhana I find is far too cognitive. I have found nothing in Thanisaro's translation work that suggests he has ever had the experience of jhana, or had an experience that he recognized as jhana. For me, when I am in jhana, I am not investigating anything. At that time I am relinquishing all cognitive processes, so there is very little volition to do anything with the state other than to experience it with awareness.

I believe this is a difference in degree. That is, you have remarkable concentration and hence get fully absorbed in jhana. However, one can be in jhana without as much concentration. I'm reminded of something Leigh Branson said:
Leigh Branson:

The other very surprising thing was that I could examine the factors of the jhana while in these states. Usually, I found that when practicing jhanas in the style I learned from Ayya Khema, all my "bandwidth" was used up in being in the concentrated state. But here, with the totally undistractable nature of these states, I could actually "look" at what I was experiencing while experiencing it. It seems that the relationship of concentration and examination goes something like this:
  1. Weak concentration - it is possible to examine the experience because the bandwidth is not used up.
  2. Moderate concentration - it is NOT possible to examine the experience because the bandwidth IS used up.
  3. Strong concentration - it is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own
  4. Visuddhimagga concentration - it is NOT possible to examine the experience because of the total absorption

I must say that now suttas like MN 111 where Sariputta describes his insight into the jhana factors makes a great deal more sense to me now.

Heh interesting he mentions that exact sutta - I didn't realize that before.

Jeffrey S Brooks:

Secondly, while I will agree that a single experience of any level of samadhi is not fully liberating; however, I have found it can be life changing to the point that the contemplative might be inspired to attempt to live a lifestyle that produces the levels of the 8 samadhis on a regular basis. And, I have found that if one meditates to the point of experiencing the 4th jhana every day, then doing so is very liberating, ie the hindrances are eventually brought to rest; however, I have also found this transformation of character can take years, and is not at all instantaneous.

I can indeed see how experiencing so much jhana daily would cause hindrances to diminish. However, it seems like Buddha really emphasized clear seeing, seeing things as they are, discernment, right thinking, right view, right intent, etc. That's what Enlightenment is, as I understand it - seeing things as they are. I don't see how abiding in 4th jhana and not examining it would lead to fundamental insights. The fetters are demolished when ignorance is demolished, and you cure ignorance with clear seeing, not by abiding in certain temporary states, though the latter is certainly a beneficial practice. This is why I am keen on knowing more about your experiences, as you say you eliminated the 10 fetters, so how did you do so / come to realize you had done so in your 40 years of practice?

Jeffrey S Brooks:

Finally after exiting the 8th jhana he enters cessation, and upon exiting mindfully from that attainment, seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended - and it was the seeing with discernment that allowed that to happen, not merely entering & exiting the cessation.
Again, this interpretation of the suttas is far too cognitive for me to agree with, because when I am in samadhi, I am not thinking or "discerning" anything.

You will notice the quote says "upon exiting mindfully from that attainment". There is no consciousness or perception in cessation, so of course Sariputta would not discern anything while in cessation, but his discernment on the entrance and exit gave him the insight necessary to end his ignorance.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
samadhi nibbana contemplation jhana
Answer
2/22/11 6:28 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for your reply...1st Jhana: I don't equate stilling the mind with first jhana, more the other way around, a stilled/calm/composed, mind is one of the hallmarks of jhana.

No, the hallmark of all four jhanas is the presence of bliss (piiti) and joy (sukha).
Passadhi - isn't that one of the seven factors of awakening, rather than a jhana factor? Have you found a nice way of mapping the Jhanas onto the seven factors? I like finding these deep correspondences a lot, and am curious about what you have discovered.

Yes, Passadhi is the fifth Factor of Enlightenment (bojjhanga). It is also the defining quality of the second jhana.
[quote=Buddha Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.22)
(2nd Jhana)]originating from (ekodibhàvaü) withdrawal, clear intention (vitakkavicàrànaü våpasamà) and a noble tranquil mind (sampasàdanaü cetaso), and in the absence of applied and sustained attention (avitakkaü avicàraü) with absorption (samàdhijaü) in bliss and joy (pãtisukhaü), one resides (viharati) in the clarity (upasampajja) of the second ecstasy (dutiyaü jhànaü).
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
Can you say a bit more about those mindstate shifts you experience during meditation? I experience something that might be described like that, and associate it with crossing between individual jhanas, most markedly at the entrance of second.

Not really, that is just what I experience. I find there can be some pretty "hard" transitions from one phase of contemplation to the next.
Let's talk about the elephant in the living room? You probably noticed that "Mahasi cessation" is a much discussed and reported phenomenon here on DhO. What's your take on this way of framing stream entry and the subsequent paths? Related to this question, how do you interpret suttas where the jhanas (including the ayatana states) are described as some kind of preview of nibbana, enabling one to conjecture about nibbna, but not the real thing? For example Nibbana Sutta, where nibbana doesn't have feelings or any of the "strings of sensuality"?

Cheers,
Florian

As I have already stated I find there is far too much cognitive language in Buddhist descriptions of the 8 stages of samadhi. I would not describe the 8 stages of samadhi. as some kind of "preview" of nibbana or an opportunity to "conjecture" about nibbana, while in contemplation. I would describe them as shades of gray leading to completion.

While I am very familiar with the suttas I am not at all familiar with "Mahasi cessation" or the lingo of DhO.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 7:04 PM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Jeffrey S Brooks:
Florian Weps:
Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for your reply...1st Jhana: I don't equate stilling the mind with first jhana, more the other way around, a stilled/calm/composed, mind is one of the hallmarks of jhana.

No, the hallmark of all four jhanas is the presence of bliss (piiti) and joy (sukha).

As I understand and experience it, piti and sukha fade upon entering the 4th jhana... can you cite the sutta where 4th jhana is described as still having piti and sukha?

Jeffrey S Brooks:
As I have already stated I find there is far too much cognitive language in Buddhist descriptions of the 8 stages of samadhi. I would not describe the 8 stages of samadhi. as some kind of "preview" of nibbana or an opportunity to "conjecture" about nibbana, while in contemplation. I would describe them as shades of gray leading to completion.

The way I'm interpreting your words (correct me if I'm wrong) is that by there being too much cognitive language in the suttas (which suttas do you agree with and which do you disagree with, by the way?), you mean that it seems like they are talking about a rational, intellectual process. Like "oh look at this factor, and i remember it arising! that's interesting, let's think about the implications of this" in as many words. I believe that's not what they mean at all - they mean just seeing what arises and passes away as it happens. No cognitive effort required, simply mindful attention.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
While I am very familiar with the suttas I am not at all familiar with "Mahasi cessation" or the lingo of DhO.

Are you familiar with/have you experienced the cessation described in the suttas? Either saññá-vedayita-nirodha or nirodha-samapatti? You said you have eliminated all 10 fetters, so you must have attained the Fruition of each of the four paths. Can you describe your experience of those Fruitions? Like for each one, what led to it, what was different before/after, how did you view the world differently, etc. I'm curious as I've heard about fruitions here, and while the fruition of stream entry seems to match the 10-fetter model, the fruition of the other paths we have described here doesn't so well, so I'm curious to hear about one's experience who does match the 10-fetter model.

About Fruit of Path vs. Path, that is just loose lingo on our part I guess. We say "I got 2nd path" to mean "I got the fruition of 2nd path".

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/22/11 11:36 PM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Hi Jeffrey,

You're right, in D22 the factors of awakening and the jhanas are put into mutual context. I had overlooked that. Thanks!

But in that same text, from third jhana on, piti is missing, and the definition of fourth doesn't contain either piti or sukha. Now in my own experience, it's more a matter of shifting and clarifying focus than that of dropping factors, what is locked onto rather than what is missing, and still I wouldn't say that piti or sukha are prominent in fourth jhana.

I'm not really that much into sutta-thumping - to me, what is experienced is primary, and finding a good way to talk about it can be difficult, especially when coming from different "cultures" of talking about it, different ways of using the same pali words and so on.

So since we share experience of the jhanas (I boldly claim), we have a lot in common already. Let's find a way to talk about what we have in common.

First, these states. There are four of them, plus four more which are related but very subtle. The additional states are also understood as offshoots of the fourth, or as contained within the fourth. Here on the DhO, we call all eight of them Jhanas, which may be a bit too casual for dedicated scholarship, but we're consistent about it, so if you see "seventh Jhana" it always refers to the sphere of nothingness, for example. So I think we can move on here.

(Parenthesis: You also noticed that there is a good bit of language and concepts from the commentaries in our vocabulary here. Again, we're fairly consistent with it, and when we say "second vipassana jhana", it's about a very specific set of experiences, which have certain correspondences with what is called jhana in the suttas. It's just a term, though - just as often, we talk about the "arising and passing away" or "A&P", referring to the same set of experiences. I don't think it's useful to get too hung up about the provenance of words and terms, it's important that we understand each other here and now and are consistent in our usage. I don't care very much whether the Venerable Ananda would immediately understand me talking today (i.e. if he would approve of my usage, or if my usage would have been correct in the 5th century BC), as long as I can understand what he reported.)

Second, which of the four states corresponds to which experience? I think we covered much of this already, given your detailed descriptions in the initial post of this thread.

Third, how about the other four? How do you experience limitless space, limitless consciousness, nothingness, and (hard to describe, I know), neither perception nor non-perception? To my way of understanding these states, they all launch off the fourth jhana, as do many other experiences you mentioned, OOBs (which I'm familiar with as dreams with distinct qualities such as grainy vision and noise), visionary experiences (again, with me these occur almost exclusively in dreams), and so on. I also understand you as saying that the "gifts of the spirit" in Christianity, and similar concepts from other mystical traditions, correspond to these.

And fourth, again, the elephant in the living room. So far we've been talking about what constitutes jhana and related states. What about taking it all apart? Seeing the disadvantage of these states? The four noble truths? For a common starting point in the suttas, M111 comes to mind.

I'm enjoying this discussion a lot, thanks for participating. You're being hammered with questions from several sides now, so please understand this as our way of welcoming newcomers by wanting to know all about them, rather than an interrogation at the gate emoticon

Cheers,
Florian

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
nirodha samadhi arahatta jhanananda
Answer
2/23/11 5:29 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Beoman:

As I understand and experience it, piti and sukha fade upon entering the 4th jhana... can you cite the sutta where 4th jhana is described as still having piti and sukha?

Beoman and Flroian, it is my experience that the 8 stages of samadhi are all blissful. And, Piiti appears in most suttic descriptions of the third jhana. However, just because piiti is not mentioned in the suttic descriptions of the fourth jhana and above does not mean it is not present, because bliss (piiti) is a factor of Enlightenment (bojjhanga), it therefore can never disappear in the trajectory toward and during enlightenment (nibanna), according to the teaching of the Buddha in the sutta pitaka.

[quote=Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.22)]
(3rd Jhana)
Residing in (viharati) bliss (Pãtiyà), dispassion (viràgà) and equanimity (upekkhako); and with a luminous (sampajàno) joy-filled body (sukha°Ëca kàyena) a noble one (ariya) proclaims a joyful abiding in the equanimity and mindfulness and clarity (upasampajja) of the third ecstasy (jhana).
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
The Noble Search:

Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
(3rd Jhana)
"Then again seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), Residing in (viharati) bliss (Pãtiyà), dispassion (viràgà) and equanimity (upekkhako); and with a luminous (sampajàno) joy-filled body (sukha°Ëca kàyena) a noble one (ariya) proclaims a joyful abiding (sukhavihàrãti) in the equanimity (upekkhako) and mindfulness (satimà) and clarity (upasampajja) of the third ecstasy (jhana). seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu) is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda

The way I'm interpreting your words (correct me if I'm wrong) is that by there being too much cognitive language in the suttas (which suttas do you agree with and which do you disagree with, by the way?), you mean that it seems like they are talking about a rational, intellectual process. Like "oh look at this factor, and i remember it arising! that's interesting, let's think about the implications of this" in as many words. I believe that's not what they mean at all - they mean just seeing what arises and passes away as it happens. No cognitive effort required, simply mindful attention.

No I never said, “there (is) too much cognitive language in the suttas.” I am saying, there is too much cognitive language in the interpretation and translation of the suttic descriptions of the 8 stages of samadhi, because the suttas are clearly not talking about a rational or intellectual process, but a subjective self-arising phenomena that is the product of leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life. However, I would agree with "just seeing what arises and passes away as it happens. No cognitive effort required, simply mindful attention." But, that is not how I am reading how at least some people here are expressing it.
Are you familiar with/have you experienced the cessation described in the suttas? Either saññá-vedayita-nirodha or nirodha-samapatti? You said you have eliminated all 10 fetters, so you must have attained the Fruition of each of the four paths. Can you describe your experience of those Fruitions? Like for each one, what led to it, what was different before/after, how did you view the world differently, etc. I'm curious as I've heard about fruitions here, and while the fruition of stream entry seems to match the 10-fetter model, the fruition of the other paths we have described here doesn't so well, so I'm curious to hear about one's experience who does match the 10-fetter model.

Well, your inquiry is still a bit lingo-heavy for me, but I will answer your questions as I understand them.

The Four Stages of Enlightenment of noble beings (s. ariya-puggala) is defined throughout the suttas in terms of being free of the fetters. See below:

stream winner (Sotapanna) has eradicated the 1st 3 fetters: Narcissism & clan identification (sakkaya-ditthi), Skeptical doubt (vicikiccha), and Clinging to rules, rights and rituals (silabbata-paramasa); will be enlightened in seven lives or less

once returner (Sakadágámi) has eradicated the 1st 3 & weakened the 4th and 5th fetters: erotic craving (kama-raga) & Ill-will or aversion (vyapada)

Non-return (Anágámi) has eradicated the first five fetters

enlightened, saint (Arahatta) has eradicated all 10 fetters, the above plus: Craving for material existence (rupa-raga), Craving for immaterial existence (arupa-raga), Conceit (mana), Restlessness (uddhacca), & Ignorance (avija)

Now, while the suttas do not make a definite relationship to the four stages of of Enlightenment of noble beings (s. ariya-puggala) to jhana attainment, it is nonetheless suggested in a jhana oriented interpretation of the suttas. Also, it has been my experience that when I am able to manifest the first jhana every time I meditate, and I meditate several times a day, then I have eradicated the 1st 3 fetters, and so forth. My case histories also support this finding. However, I must point out that a single experience of any of the 8 stages of samadhi does not result in any of the Four Stages of Enlightenment of noble beings (s. ariya-puggala), but we could say this person has entered the stream, if we are willing to consider that the "stream" is samadhi. I experience the fourth jhana every time I meditate and I meditate several times a day. It just so happens I am completely free of the 10 fetters. This means I have no craving for anything. In a western context, this means I have no addictions, nor any neuroses.

Now, you asked about saññá-vedayita-nirodha. It means "complete liberation from sensory perception," and it is understood to be equal to nibanna. It is often interpreted in Buddhism as an unconscious, black void state. However, this makes no sense. If it were true we could call every dead person an 'Arahatta.' I have found when one has negotiated all 8 stages of samadhi, and experiences at least the 4th jhana every time one meditates, and one experiences this every day, then one has very little attachment to the cognitive components of identity.

Also, one who experiences any of the 4 immaterial samadhis (arupa), is most certainly eradicating their hold upon the physical universe and the sensory domain. When I rest the body at night, then I spend the whole night in the immaterial domains, and I move about their freely, and I move about just as freely through space/time. I have found for such a person space and time has no meaning. I believe we could thus say such a person has arrived at saññá-vedayita-nirodha.

However, it was my experience that this was not just a single meditation experience, or moment in time, but the culmination of spending a great deal of time in the 8 stages of samadhi, which is every day for decades, and this so unhinged my time/space domain that I can never tell where I am in space time when I transition from one to the next domain until I give it some time to integrate. Thus, the sensory domain has no hold upon me, and therefore I have arrived at saññá-vedayita-nirodha.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
dhukkha jhana jhanananda
Answer
2/23/11 5:50 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Hi Jeffrey,

You're right, in D22 the factors of awakening and the jhanas are put into mutual context. I had overlooked that. Thanks!

...And fourth, again, the elephant in the living room. So far we've been talking about what constitutes jhana and related states. What about taking it all apart? Seeing the disadvantage of these states? The four noble truths? For a common starting point in the suttas, M111 comes to mind.

I'm enjoying this discussion a lot, thanks for participating. You're being hammered with questions from several sides now, so please understand this as our way of welcoming newcomers by wanting to know all about them, rather than an interrogation at the gate emoticon

Cheers,
Florian
You are right Florian, I am feeling a little "hammered" with questions from several sides, and most of these questions are being asked by more than one person, so I want to avoid repeating myself, and I believe others here would appreciate that. I did skip answering one of your questions, which I plan to answer tomorrow, as the day is getting late. But, I will answer the above quoted question.

In the suttas the 4 jhanas are the definition of the 8th fold, so, and there is no place in the suttas where any of the jhanas are considered as a disadvantage. In fact the only place where we see the 4 Noble Truths resolved in freedom from anxiety (dhukkha) is the 4th jhana.

The Noble Search:

Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
(4th Jhana)
"Then again seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with the abandoning (pahànà) of pleasure (sukhassa) and anxiety (dukkhassa); and the earlier abandoning (pahànà pubbeva) of manic-depression (somanassadomanassànaü), agitation (atthaïgamà), suffering and unhappiness (adukkhamasukhaü); one arrives at (viharati) the clarity (upasampajja) and complete purity of mindful equanimity (upekkhàsatipàrisuddhiü) of the fourth ecstasy (catutthaü jhànaü). This, seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave), is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.

Now, I can see from the Western perspective "renounces (vivicceva) sensuality (kàmehi), renounces unwholesome mental states and beliefs (akusalehi dhammehi)" could be a horrifying thought; however, from personal daily experience with the four jhanas, this is precisely what one must do. I have found if one follows through then the consequence is freedom from anxiety and addictions (dhukkha).

So, there seems to be a lot of people on this forum who claim to experience the four jhanas. So, how many meditate every day? How many experience the 4th jhana every day? And, how many found they are free from anxieties and addictions (dhukkha)?

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
3/14/11 7:45 AM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Jeffrey S Brooks:


So, there seems to be a lot of people on this forum who claim to experience the four jhanas. So, how many meditate every day? How many experience the 4th jhana every day? And, how many found they are free from anxieties and addictions (dhukkha)?


Hi Jeffrey,

Since getting to the 1st cessation moment (fruition according to Mahasi Sayadaw and others) after traversing the stages of insight (many many many yogis have experienced and are experiencing them so there is no denying there is something to them regardless of not being explicitly talked of in the suttas) and which is considered here to be stream entry, I have been able to will the mind into any of the 8 traditional jhanas by just directing the mind there. The cessation moment did something to the mind/brain which made it permanently and phenomenologically more "spacious", panoramic and wide.

There is a seriously different feel to perception now, and there is no self to find in it all at all. No centre point to the illusion of self. Actually it became more this way after getting to what people here call 4th path. Suffice to say, this cleaning out of the mind, after 3 specific special perception changing "fruitions" (cessation moments) and another special "blip" which shifted perception permanently made it so I can will it into any jhana at anytime and as fast as I can think "jhana".

Here is an explanation of what happens at what is called 4th path here: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/664764;jsessionid=9B89AC3A96B29B1459983B656A64B030

So yes, I can hang out in 4th jhana all I want for as long as I want. All day if I wanted to, sitting, standing, eating, walking. . The thing is, the default mode of the mind now after 4th path (7 months since) is one of great stillness and calm. So I don't always have the "urge" to dwell in jhana. In fact I often sense dissatisfaction while dwelling in them as I experience subtle tension in the way the mind "holds" the factors that condition each jhana regardless of how blissful they are. Letting go of the tensions/conditioning factors is my current practice. Here is a more detailed explanation:

http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-tool-box-letting-go-approach-to.html

I don't consider 4th path to be arhatship but more like sakadagmi in the fetter model as that is my experience. I'm not the only 4th pather who thinks the same. Craving and aversion have seriously been attenuated but the insights gained need to be 100% embodied still which is what Im currently working on. The illusion of self was seen through for the first time at 1st path and ever more so and seemingly permanently at 4th path. Other yogis here and at KFD consider 4th path to be arhatship. I don't and prefer to follow a higher ideal.

At 1st and more so at 2nd path for myself, the jhanas were naturally uncovered to be seen as natural strata of mind that every human can develop access to. The path moments made it all natural. And I can dwell in a more superfical jhana where the conditioning factors are all in place, or will the mind to go much deeper into absorption. Getting what we term "path" here allows for jhanas to be easily accessed by, at times, just the will of mind. That is how it is for myself and many other yogis I know.

Maybe a lot of what we talk of here at the DhO does not match up to the suttas but more so to the commentaries. Maybe this is so because their authors weren't always talking out their arses. ;) There are so many of us now with similar stories and experiences and poo pooing anyone's experience just because it cant be found in the suttas doesnt occur too often here. Hopefully, we can find some common ground.

emoticon

Metta,

Nick

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/23/11 9:04 PM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Jeffrey S Brooks:
Beoman Claudiu Beoman:

As I understand and experience it, piti and sukha fade upon entering the 4th jhana... can you cite the sutta where 4th jhana is described as still having piti and sukha?

Beoman and Flroian, it is my experience that the 8 stages of samadhi are all blissful.

I think we're just mixing up terminology here again... they're all certainly pleasant to be in, but when I'm in the 4th jhana and the ayatanas I don't feel joy and bliss to the large extent that i do in 2nd and 3rd jhanas.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
And, Piiti appears in most suttic descriptions of the third jhana. However, just because piiti is not mentioned in the suttic descriptions of the fourth jhana and above does not mean it is not present...

You make it sound like an accident that it isn't mentioned! =P. However, it's not only that it isn't mentioned - it's actively described as fading! From MN111:

Buddha:

3] "Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the first Jhana, which is accompanied by thinking and examining thought, with joy and happiness born of seclusion.

So far, so good - joy (piti) and happiness (sukha) present in 1st jhana.
Buddha:

...
5] "Again, bhikkhus, with the stilling of thinking and examining thought, Sariputta entered and abided in the second Jhana, which has self-confidence and stillness of mind without thinking and examining thought, with joy and happiness born of unification.

Yep, still present in 2nd jhana...
Buddha:

...
7] "Again, bhikkhus, with the fading away as well of joy, Sariputta abided in equanimity, and mindful, and fully aware, still feeling happiness with his body, he entered upon and abided in the third Jhana, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful’.

Written plain as day... joy (piti) fades upon entering 3rd jhana, while happiness (sukha) remains.
Buddha:

...
9] "Again, bhikkhus, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the fourth Jhana, which has neither-pleasure-nor-pain and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

Here any pleasure (along with pain) is also gone, leaving neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Also from my own experience, 2nd jhana is very intensely pleasureful everywhere in the body, 3rd jhana is lightly pleasurable everywhere in the body in a more subtle but still nice way, and 4th jhana either has no bodily pleasure at all (if i'm in it deep) or very faint traces of it (if i'm in it lightly). it's certainly a calm state to be in, but not what i would describe blissful.

Could you describe what you experience as you go through the jhanas nowadays? As in, go into more details on how you find them all blissful, as maybe you just mean that they're pleasant states to be in(?). And what differences do you find among them? Like how do you know whether you have moved onto third or are still in second? Not necessarily in the moment, as one's attention is taken up then, but looking back, at least.

Jeffrey S Brooks:

...because bliss (piiti) is a factor of Enlightenment (bojjhanga), it therefore can never disappear in the trajectory toward and during enlightenment (nibanna), according to the teaching of the Buddha in the sutta pitaka.

I don't know much about the factors of enlightenment. As the sutta pitaka consists of more than 10000 suttas, i couldn't look for a particular reference there - can you show me where it's mentioned that piti never disappears at any point on the path towards enlightenment, including when in the 4th jhanas and the ayatanas?

Jeffrey S Brooks:

Now, while the suttas do not make a definite relationship to the four stages of of Enlightenment of noble beings (s. ariya-puggala) to jhana attainment, it is nonetheless suggested in a jhana oriented interpretation of the suttas.

Could you expound upon this interpretation and how you came upon it?

Jeffrey S Brooks:

Also, it has been my experience that when I am able to manifest the first jhana every time I meditate, and I meditate several times a day, then I have eradicated the 1st 3 fetters, and so forth.

Hmm perhaps we have a different definition of eradicated... by my understanding, eradication of a fetter means that it is unconditionally gone. It has fully disappeared from that person, and it is impossible to re-arise in that person. Thus if you say the fetter is only gone when one meditates daily up to the first jhana, that wouldn't be eradication, that would be attenuation.

I haven't seen anywhere that Enlightenment is referred to as something conditional, e.g. you are Enlightened so long as you meditate daily, but if you don't, you become un-Enlightened. That doesn't make it sound too great at all! Buddha always said his state was unexcelled and lots of other superlatives.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
My case histories also support this finding. However, I must point out that a single experience of any of the 8 stages of samadhi does not result in any of the Four Stages of Enlightenment of noble beings (s. ariya-puggala), but we could say this person has entered the stream, if we are willing to consider that the "stream" is samadhi.

If we define the stream as jhana, then yep, first jhana would literally be "stream-entry". I don't believe that's what whoever came up with that metaphor had in mind, though... so let's ignore that for now.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
I experience the fourth jhana every time I meditate and I meditate several times a day. It just so happens I am completely free of the 10 fetters.

I know it's just a turn of phrase but you make it sound accidental! When did you realize you had eradicated the last five fetters? Did it happen gradually over a particular period of time? Did they disappear simultaneously?

Maybe this exercise would help. Start with now, and ask - am I free of all 10 fetters now? Answer is yes. Think back to your childhood, ask - was I free of all 10 fetters then? The answer is no. Then just converge, going back in the past from now and forward in future from then, and see when it was that each of the 10 fetters were gone. Did they go in groups like suggested by the 4-path 10-fetter model?

Jeffrey S Brooks:
This means I have no craving for anything. In a western context, this means I have no addictions, nor any neuroses.

As you said you stream entry was dependent upon your daily meditations, is your Arahatship also dependent upon daily meditation? What would happen if you stopped meditating for a week (and I encourage you to do it if you want to see whether those fetters are really gone)? Would neuroses re-arise?

Jeffrey S Brooks:
Now, you asked about saññá-vedayita-nirodha. It means "complete liberation from sensory perception," and it is understood to be equal to nibanna. It is often interpreted in Buddhism as an unconscious, black void state. However, this makes no sense. If it were true we could call every dead person an 'Arahatta.'
...
Thus, the sensory domain has no hold upon me, and therefore I have arrived at saññá-vedayita-nirodha.

I don't know much Pali, but isn't nirodha more accurately rendered as "extinction"? Thus it would be "extinction of perception and feeling". As perception itself is extinguished, I don't believe one could walk about while in said (non-)state. It would not be a black void state either, as recognizing anything as black or void requires perception.

It's also constantly mentioned in the suttas, for example, again from MN 111:
MN 111:
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.

Thus it is an attainment that one enters in and then exits from. Also note-worthy is that while Sariputta investigated the factors making up the jhanas and ayatanas while residing in them prior to that, he did not investigate the factors while in the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, or in the cessation of feeling & perception.

This hasn't happened only in the suttas... several people on the DhO and on KfD claim this attainment. Thus I believe you're referring to something else when you say saññá-vedayita-nirodha, and not the attainment described in the suttas and by (for example) members of these two communities.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
I have found when one has negotiated all 8 stages of samadhi, and experiences at least the 4th jhana every time one meditates, and one experiences this every day, then one has very little attachment to the cognitive components of identity.

Does this mean you have attachment to the cognitive components of identity if you do not experience the 4th jhana on a daily basis?

Jeffrey S Brooks:
Also, one who experiences any of the 4 immaterial samadhis (arupa), is most certainly eradicating their hold upon the physical universe and the sensory domain. When I rest the body at night, then I spend the whole night in the immaterial domains, and I move about their freely, and I move about just as freely through space/time. I have found for such a person space and time has no meaning. I believe we could thus say such a person has arrived at saññá-vedayita-nirodha.

Again, it is the extinction of perception and feeling. The state itself is not consciously experienced, as there's literally nothing to experience... one only knows the moment before and the moment after, and its happening must be inferred by observing what preceded it (a powering-down of the mental faculties) and followed it (powering-up, and very large amounts of bliss, and any external indications of time passing). Another example from here:
Richard:

One other instance (too many to relate) occurred when sitting cross- legged upon a hillside overlooking the valley below and across to the mountain range opposite; there was incredible blissfulness just prior to that ultimate state – roiling waves of almost indescribable bliss – and ecstatic bliss immediately after yet for the event itself there was nothing, zero, zilch (hence ‘ineffable’, ‘unspeakable’, and so on) as the ultimate, the supreme by whatever name, is truly void.
(The reason why I have singled-out that event (in 1985) from all the others is that, being born and raised on a remote farm in the forties and fifties telling the time by the sun was second nature; it was about 8:00 AM according to its position upon commencement and about 2:00 PM upon completion; ...)


So one cannot be moving about an immaterial domain freely and be said to have arrived at saññá-vedayita-nirodha.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
However, it was my experience that this was not just a single meditation experience, or moment in time, but the culmination of spending a great deal of time in the 8 stages of samadhi, which is every day for decades, and this so unhinged my time/space domain that I can never tell where I am in space time when I transition from one to the next domain until I give it some time to integrate. Thus, the sensory domain has no hold upon me, and therefore I have arrived at saññá-vedayita-nirodha.


Same as before, you seem to be using "saññá-vedayita-nirodha" differently.

Jeffrey S Brooks:
You are right Florian, I am feeling a little "hammered" with questions from several sides, and most of these questions are being asked by more than one person, so I want to avoid repeating myself, and I believe others here would appreciate that.

Sorry for my part in the hammering! We is all keen on enlightenment here on the DhO, so we is curious folk =). Above all I'm curious when you knew you had eradicated each of the fetters.

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/24/11 10:32 AM as a reply to Jeffrey S Brooks.
Hi Jeffrey,

Jeffrey S Brooks:
In the suttas the 4 jhanas are the definition of the 8th fold, so, and there is no place in the suttas where any of the jhanas are considered as a disadvantage. In fact the only place where we see the 4 Noble Truths resolved in freedom from anxiety (dhukkha) is the 4th jhana.

The Noble Search:

Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda 11-02-06
(4th Jhana)
"Then again seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave bhikkhu), with the abandoning (pahànà) of pleasure (sukhassa) and anxiety (dukkhassa); and the earlier abandoning (pahànà pubbeva) of manic-depression (somanassadomanassànaü), agitation (atthaïgamà), suffering and unhappiness (adukkhamasukhaü); one arrives at (viharati) the clarity (upasampajja) and complete purity of mindful equanimity (upekkhàsatipàrisuddhiü) of the fourth ecstasy (catutthaü jhànaü). This, seekers of Buddhahood (bhikkhave), is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.


Do you base your assertion that this is the same as the third noble truth on the phrase "adukkhamasukham"? That translates roughly as "not suffering nor happiness", right?

Hm. I don't think this is the same as the third noble truth. The third noble truth is the truth of Nirodha/cessation/extinction. "Remainderless extinction of this very thirst..." IIRC. As for blinding Mara: there certainly is something to this poetic image. After entering the stream, upon reading Epicurus' letter to Menoeceus, his "death is nothing to us" rang true to me in a way it had not done before.

But, in my own experience, extinction is accessible from 4th jhana. That is, 4th jhana, as you say, falls into place as the "samma samadhi" factor of the noble eightfold path. When viewing my experience in terms of the path factors, right effort (doing and maintaining what should be done; renouncing and not taking up again what should not be done) is another necessary factor, and that corresponds nicely with what you're saying here:

Jeffrey S Brooks:
Now, I can see from the Western perspective "renounces (vivicceva) sensuality (kàmehi), renounces unwholesome mental states and beliefs (akusalehi dhammehi)" could be a horrifying thought; however, from personal daily experience with the four jhanas, this is precisely what one must do. I have found if one follows through then the consequence is freedom from anxiety and addictions (dhukkha).

So, there seems to be a lot of people on this forum who claim to experience the four jhanas. So, how many meditate every day? How many experience the 4th jhana every day? And, how many found they are free from anxieties and addictions (dhukkha)?


Speaking for myself only: I meditate every day (not for four+ hours though). I can pop into 4th jhana (or any of these eight states) and stay there for as long as I like (though I have only tested this with durations up to about half an hour). While in jhana, anxiety and other forms of dukkha are not prominent, that is true. There is certainly something to the doctrine that the hindrances are suppressed while in Jhana. But in everyday life, while certainly highly beneficial, I can't say that jhana practice has totally freed me of anxieties or addictions.

That said, I'm not impressed by the doctrinal division between jhana (or samatha) and vipassana practice, and the whole "dry/wet" thing. It's a useful training aid, I think, to drive home the difference between samma samadhi (jhana) and samma ditthi (seeing things in terms of the four noble truths), highlighting the need to develop both - but nothing more. When developing samma sati (i.e. doing satipatthata meditation), these are integrated in a natural way anyway.

Are you quite sure that it was solely the attainment of fourth jhana that "did it" for you? That would be kind of contrary to not only my experience, but also to the Buddha's many sermons about the importance of all eight path factors, not just samma samadhi. What I'm saying is that I had reached 4th many, many times before the thing "popped" for me, though when it did, it was indeed from that jhana. Is this in line with your own observations?

As always, it's fun hashing this out. Looking forward to your other reply. Cheers,
Florian

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
enlightenment samadhi brahmavamso brasington vimalaramsi jhanananda
Answer
2/24/11 5:03 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Hi Jeffrey...
Speaking for myself only: I meditate every day (not for four+ hours though). I can pop into 4th jhana (or any of these eight states) and stay there for as long as I like (though I have only tested this with durations up to about half an hour). While in jhana, anxiety and other forms of dukkha are not prominent, that is true. There is certainly something to the doctrine that the hindrances are suppressed while in Jhana. But in everyday life, while certainly highly beneficial, I can't say that jhana practice has totally freed me of anxieties or addictions.

Thank-you Florian, for being honest enough to post your response to my question. I have spent some time in daily meditation practice for nearly 4 decades. In these decades I have met a great deal of contemplatives and I have spoken to them about their meditation experiences. Of the hundreds of case histories that I have gathered I seem to have more facility with the attainment of the 8 stages of samadhi than anyone I have had this conversation with. To me, Florian's facility with the 8 stages of samadhi certainly does not reflect my experience of jhana and samahi, nor that of my case histories, and I meditate about 3 hours a day, every day.

Now, it has been my experience that the hindrances, anxieties and addictions have disappeared in me from my meditation practice that gives rise to the 4 jhanas every day. And, my students who follow this model also report the same finding. So, I wonder why Florian is not free of the hindrances, anxieties and addictions if he has the facility with the attainment of the 8 stages of samadhi that he claims he has.

From the other responses I have received on this forum it has become clear to me that we are most probably not speaking of the same thing when we use the terms 'jhana' and 'samadhi.' Has anyone here examined the differential way in which these terms have been used by those who teach it and write about Buddhist meditation and philosophy?

Some years ago I wrote an essay comparing how jhana is expressed by the various teachers. I also wrote an essay on Translator bias, which shows how jhana has been translated by 25 different translators. You can find these articles at the following URLs:

A Critical Analysis of the teaching of Jhana
Exposing translator bias in the translation of the Pali Canon and other Asian literature

About 8 years ago I attended a 10-day meditation retreat in New Mexico that was led by Leigh Brasington. Vimalaramsi was there as well. There I had a number of conversations with Vimalaramsi in between lectures and meditation sessions. He expressed he did not agree with the way Brasington understood jhana. I had to agree with him; however, I did not necessarily agree with Vimalaramsi's point of view on the subject either.

While at Brasington's retreat I asked him if he meditated every day.

Brasington said, "I do not."

I could not understand how someone who does not have a daily meditation practice could have much experience, if any, with jhana.

Since then Brahmavamso published a few books on the subject. I have read two of them. I find I do not agree with his interpretation of jhana either.

So, there seems to be some differential use in the terms 'jhana' and 'samadhi.' It does not seem we are talking about the same thing here.

I find the Stages of Enlightenment of noble beings (s. ariya-puggala) might be the best way to determine if someone really has the facility with the 8 stages of samadhi that they claim. If one has such facility, then we would expect them to be free of all hindrances. Or if they have facility with some of the levels, then they should be relatively free of the hindrances. Otherwise, what is the point in following the Noble Eightfold Path, if it does not lead to freedom from anxiety and addictive behavior? It has for me and my students, but it has not for others. Why?

RE: The meditation experiences of Jhanananda
Answer
2/24/11 5:14 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Beoman:

As you said you stream entry was dependent upon your daily meditations, is your Arahatship also dependent upon daily meditation? What would happen if you stopped meditating for a week (and I encourage you to do it if you want to see whether those fetters are really gone)? Would neuroses re-arise?

Now, I find this an interesting question, because anyone who has read the suttas will find that after his enlightenment Siddhartha Gautama continued to practiced meditation every day, even on the day of his death. So, is it worth considering that the Noble Eightfold Path is a lifestyle that both produces enlightenment, as well as sustains it. This is my finding.