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From Zen to Mahasi?

From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
4/6/11 1:52 PM
I have psychological problems; not the ordinary man problems but something more structured. I've been into Zen Soto for a couple of years and have had attended a Zen group since then, plus some meditation (Zazen) at home. Results have been zero as of now in every field. I'm wondering if switching to Mahasi Vipassana, which to me seems a little more pragmatical, would be better or if it's better to stay were i am right now (no zen-jokes on this :bashfulemoticon

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/22/11 2:57 PM as a reply to Mark R..
For what concerns the name, i thought that the display name would have been displayed (i have chosen thing or thingy).

Thanks for reading.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/22/11 11:21 PM as a reply to Mark R..
Hi,

I don't have psychological problems beyond the common troubles, so hopefully someone with more direct experience will be able to help you. Nevertheless, anyone with some experience in sanghas has some second-hand experience of the results of such difficulties. It seems to me that the noting practice, along with most other insight practices, can be quite destructive to an unbalanced mind. The best bet for grounding the mind/emotions would probably be practicing the four immeasurables--compassion, loving-kindness, equanimity, and empathetic joy. These are beautiful meditation practices that will help your concentration while balancing your spirit. Alternately, the Vajrayana have a practice called Tonglen that encapsulates all four immeasurables into one meditation. It's a beautiful meditation, and can be carried out whenever you find yourself in a difficult place. Hopefully someone with more direct experience of your difficulties (it might be helpful to be more explicit about what they are) will be able to suggest some way to evaluate when your ready for more intense practices.

May you be happy and well!

-Brule

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/23/11 5:50 AM as a reply to Mark R..
Hey mysteriously anonymous person,

Would you mind saying more about your psychological issues? There are people on here who deal with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression and a whole host of other mental health problems so you're not alone.

As for the suitability of Mahasi-style noting, I believe it's possible for anyone who's able to focus on sensation to benefit from it although I understand that having psychological problems may make the ride more intense and potentially dangerous. Hopefully someone else will be able to answer your question more fully.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/24/11 1:02 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Sorry for the blitz, i didn't say anything because i thought that nobody would have answered. The rational part of me is not undermined, for the rest i've grown up with something called avoidant personality disorder. Syntoms are low self exteem, thoughts to be often unpleasant, unlikeable, solitude, and anxiety/avoidance of some social situations.

The problem I have with Zen here is that often the only instrucion given is to not do anything, to stay with the breath and the body; it's really like this and i don't know what to do with it. It seems to me that maybe it is good for perfecting wisdom and maybe i need something more grounded. Personal guidance (open questions and answers with a teacher) is nearly absent.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/24/11 2:22 PM as a reply to Brule K.
Brule K:
The best bet for grounding the mind/emotions would probably be practicing the four immeasurables--compassion, loving-kindness, equanimity, and empathetic joy.

I'd need an operative guide (book) for this. Interesting...

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/24/11 3:51 PM as a reply to Mark R..
[quote=Sorry Can't Say]I'd need an operative guide (book) for this.

Try 'Lovingkindness: The Revolutionary Art of Happiness' by Sharon Salzberg.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/24/11 6:03 PM as a reply to Mark R..
Thanks for clearing that up, at least we can talk openly about this stuff and how it affects doing insight practice so don't worry about not getting a reply. A lot of people here probably deal with the same shit you've got happening, to a greater or lesser extent, so you're not alone.

I'm not hugely familiar with Zen but I think it's a common misconception that one has to just sit and "do nothing", from what I know of this particular technique it's more about being aware of what appears in awareness, resting in awareness itself. I believe that proper understanding of this requires a teacher, but I don't know any Zen teachers myself.

Have you read "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" yet? It really is an incredibly useful book and has been the turning point for many of us on here so maybe start with that for a solid foundation in the technique and some good theory as well. Daniel's friend, Kenneth Folk, does online teaching (he also offers scholarship places for his Skype lessons so you could still get some lessons even if you can't make a donation) and is a really nice guy who seriously knows his stuff. I would highly recommend checking out his site, Kenneth Folk Dharma and maybe contacting him then take it from there. It's up to you.

Maybe check out more about samatha/concentration practice, it's not the way to enlightenment by itself but is great fun and hugely useful. There's also the whole Actual Freedom thing but I'll leave that to other people to talk about since I don't follow actively follow that route.

What is is that you want to do through this? Why are you meditating?

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/25/11 5:25 PM as a reply to Mark R..
Hi Mark,

Nice to know your name.

Ms. Salzberg's loving-kindness book that Timus recommended is beautiful, and she treats her subject with care. Unfortunately, she's neglects the other three immeasurables. As a supplement to her book, you might want to check out B. Alan Wallace's Four Immeasurables: Practices to Open the Heart. He also has guided meditations for them, and for concentration, on his website.

Alternately, there are many excellent books on Tonglen, usually as a part of the Lojong (mind training) teachings.

Here's a link to the Lojong site, with Trungpa's description of Tonglen (giving and taking):

http://lojongmindtraining.com/Commentary.aspx?author=2&proverb=7

If you explore the site, you'll find that the whole of the Lojong teachings are there, with commentaries from distinguished practitioners/scholars. Don't worry, it won't make you a crazy, deity-visualizing Tibetan Buddhist.

But honestly, there are many good places to look for the Four Immeasurables and for Tonglen. They are not complex or esoteric practices, and following out almost any description from a decent web-site will benefit you. You'll never regret doing the practices, I assure you.

Enjoy,
Brule

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/26/11 7:54 AM as a reply to Brule K.
The Collected Works of Chogyam Trungpa, Volume 2: The Path Is the Goal - Training the Mind - Glimpses of Abhidharma - Glimpses of Shunyata - Glimpses of Mahayana - Selected Writings

Search: silkworm (pages 304-305), replace sitting discomfort with your own discomforts.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/27/11 5:54 PM as a reply to Mark R..
Thanks for all the time. I try to merge everything here. My objective with mediation is to change my mind into something which produces less suffering, more worry-less relationships with the others, more joy to live. My basic problem is the assumption that people often dislike me, or that I'm unlikeable, this happens automatically and its almost ever-present. I'm flooded with such thoughts during the day. The other problem concerns my body, although I'm not bad-looking (neither good-looking), i hate my body and myself. These things have been such since i was very young and don't go away. About external conditions, there's almost the desert around me. A persistent kind of depression - dysthymia in the DSM-IV - partly felt as loneliness, is what is felt subjectively.
Cognitive behavioral therapy have failed for now (or i have either way), and i have a liking on the Buddha way so this is why i came here. I don't know what is meant with "unstable people" (about the sentence "this place is not for..." read somewhere). My mood is unstable, but i would say of myself that i tend to "suffer silently", in the sense that there is no significant flow-out of emotions. I keep my cool in other terms.


It is urgent for me to start doing something soon. Books are currently shipping. The commitment and effort i can put in it is strong, but i need someone to tell me exactly what to do without objections. If i start alone with Tonglen or noting tomorrow, it will last one time at best. Anybody i will be in contact with (teacher) wouldn't know, of course, a grain of what i said here. But who would want to work with somebody who's at the absolute zero level (even less probably)?
I will try with Tonglen the soonest, and read some stuff about noting which seems to be more complicated. Anybody please feel free to say anything even if it is out of topic.

katy s:

...unless you are getting external negative interactions, such as being actively told that you are unpleasant and unlikeable.

If I may ask: is this "unlikeable" framing provided mostly by persons around you (external) or provided by you (internally)?

It is mostly internal, but you know the self-fulfilling prophecies...

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/27/11 5:58 PM as a reply to Mark R..
I have discovered something, I think i am 100% correct on this. The practice that is taught - even to beginners - at the Zen Sangha that i attend to, corresponds exactly to the third gear. It is astonishing, as i read it, how much the same thing these words are to what is constantly said by the senior monks in the Zen group.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/28/11 12:34 PM as a reply to Mark R..
Thanks... i understood about diligence and endeavor.
Since i have nothing else to do i must use all of it. Hoping that my mind won't do jokes such as strong resistance in the moments things don't go well (unfortunately that happens).
I think that unlikeable is not of the states that arise themselves. I had a glimps that learning to objectify them as is done in noting could change something about this identifications. This is mainly why i'm interested in Mahasi.

Anybody has the feeling that i'm deluding myself into thinking that such a practice can change this identifications? Then, if the identifications weaken, will these kind of thoughts (nobody can like me, i'm unpleasant, etc.) start to appear with less frequency?

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/28/11 4:01 PM as a reply to Mark R..
I invite others to correct me if I'm wrong, but the only real danger in Mahasi style noting is that it can quickly lead to an unpleasant state, so unpleasant that you quit meditating, possibly even attempt suicide.

What happens could be described as the sense of self becoming really strong, so strong that it eventually collapses. When that collapse occurs, you will be much better off than ever before, but the phase when the self becomes stronger could mean an amplification of your problems: You might just get caught in a vicious circle: Your meditation might become really frustrating. As a consequence, you will meditate less. Then you might think, "I am such a failure. I have had really bad meditation for weeks now, and instead of facing it like a man, I find excuses and don't even sit regularly anymore." Then you might try a totally different technique, possibly something that has worked for you before, and surprise, surprise! you may just be unable to repeat the good results you were previously achieving. You may feel as if meditation is aggravating your problems; You may feel as if meditation is causing your problems.

Such events are pretty much to be expected if you do Mahasi style noting, but they vary enough from person to person to be able to fool you into not recognizing or not believing that the unpleasantness you're going through is indeed a sign of meditative progress. I mean this last part. I was no exception the first time around, and I am no exception now.

However, if you can stick with it and pull through the unpleasant period, you will get to the point where what you think you are changes forever. Most of the problems you describe will then pretty much disappear in the blink of an eye (though it may take you a couple of weeks to fully see and understand that).

You should definitely have a real teacher (not just a book) if you do Mahasi. If that person is skillful, he may save you months, even years of unpleasant meditation and make you progress much faster, but even if he's not all that great a "teacher," just having someone there to talk to and who has gone through what you are going through will give you the confidence to continue as best you can until you reach the point where it all pays off.

Also: Meditation on loving-kindness is an excellent antidote for physical pain, mental pain, nightmares, restlessness. I can't imagine a person for whom it might be inappropriate to add a few minutes of metta meditation a day.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
3/30/11 8:55 AM as a reply to Mark R..
Mark R.:
I have discovered something, I think i am 100% correct on this. The practice that is taught - even to beginners - at the Zen Sangha that i attend to, corresponds exactly to the third gear. It is astonishing, as i read it, how much the same thing these words are to what is constantly said by the senior monks in the Zen group.


Correct!

That's what I like so much about Kenneth's approach, it's not just straight-up Theravada and he incorporates techniques from many other Buddhist traditions into a uniquely open system of practice. I got into 3rd gear last night for a while actually and it's exactly as described on KFD.

I'll chime in later on when I've got a chance, but I wanted to confirm your suspicions regarding this matter.

T

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
4/3/11 12:40 PM as a reply to Dauphin Supple Chirp.
Very thanks for the replies. I have booked a 10 day retreat in may. I'm tired of this life. Sadly the retreat will work as something to hang up to, until the time i'll actually do it and realize it doesn't "heal" me. Please tell me if the way can be approached from a f* up mind too, if i should do something in particular, or avoid doing something.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
4/3/11 2:22 PM as a reply to Mark R..
Mark R.:
Very thanks for the replies. I have booked a 10 day retreat in may. I'm tired of this life. ...Please tell me if the way can be approached from a f* up mind too, if i should do something in particular, or avoid doing something.

don't do this:
Mark R.:
Sadly the retreat will work as something to hang up to, until the time i'll actually do it and realize it doesn't "heal" me.

you've taken it as a given that that will happen, and that will surely increase the chances it does. do you sincerely want that to happen? if not then try something else (e.g. practicing diligently).

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
4/3/11 3:46 PM as a reply to Mark R..
I have booked a 10 day retreat in may.

You sure you're up for that? I don't know you other than through the brief interaction on this forum, but if you have concerns about your own mental stability then I would advise against it, for the moment at least until you've done a few months of vipassana practice at home and had a chance to see how stages like the A&P or Re-Observation feel 'cause, even for someone with no psychological issues, they can still be pretty intense.

Sadly the retreat will work as something to hang up to, until the time i'll actually do it and realize it doesn't "heal" me.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. No, a retreat will most certainly not "heal" you and this is the reason why both me and Claudiu are saying the same thing. If you want to "heal" your "self" then go get some therapy from a qualified professional, don't sit down and pick apart the very thing you're trying to repair because that's what vipassana is all about. Insight is about seeing through fundamental attachment to phenomena, not about hanging on. If you approach a vipassana retreat with that attitude then you'll make no progress, and quite possibly leave yourself worse off than you are right now so, for your own sake, think twice about your plans.

Please tell me if the way can be approached from a f* up mind too, if i should do something in particular, or avoid doing something.

Yes, the way can be approached with a fucked up mind. Talk to some people on here or on Kenneth Folk's website who deal with mental illness and see what they're saying. Be realistic with yourself and don't bite off more than you can chew 'cause you just might end up flat on your ass in a psych ward. Avoid vipassana until you've worked on some concentration practice, that's about all I could recommend.

I'm tired of this life.

Y'know, I don't usually suggest this but it might be worth looking into Actual Freedom, vipassana is hard going and sometimes painful although it's my own preferred path at present. Claudiu knows his stuff and is good at explaining it in so perhaps he could comment on this. It may very well be more suited to you but I could be wrong.

Take care and keep us posted.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
4/3/11 5:54 PM as a reply to Mark R..
something that is sometimes used in hospice care could be useful to you during your retreat.

In hospice, while a person is still conscious, they provide caregivers with a phrase that they want repeated when they enter into unconsciousness (i.e., I am safe and go forward with complete wonder)

1. develop a phrase that is valuable to you (i.e., no matter what, I am not harmful to any being and wish all beings well, including this Mark-being)
2. practice it now, when you are down on yourself and in the morning and at night, also when you are neutral or even content/happy.
3. write it on paper, keep it on your person during the retreat
4. this phrase is your sincere, unbreakable rule for no matter what thoughts/feelings happen during the ten day retreat

Long meditations can bring out new highs and new lows. Be prepared for this. It seems to happen to everyone. You are submitting yourself to a process, but you will ultimately be your core caregiver during the process.

just a thought. it may not resonate with you.

RE: From Zen to Mahasi?
Answer
4/3/11 6:06 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:
Please tell me if the way can be approached from a f* up mind too, if i should do something in particular, or avoid doing something.

Yes, the way can be approached with a fucked up mind. Talk to some people on here or on Kenneth Folk's website who deal with mental illness and see what they're saying. Be realistic with yourself and don't bite off more than you can chew 'cause you just might end up flat on your ass in a psych ward. Avoid vipassana until you've worked on some concentration practice, that's about all I could recommend.

I'm tired of this life.

Y'know, I don't usually suggest this but it might be worth looking into Actual Freedom, vipassana is hard going and sometimes painful although it's my own preferred path at present. Claudiu knows his stuff and is good at explaining it in so perhaps he could comment on this. It may very well be more suited to you but I could be wrong.

ah i forgot the context of this thread, i.e. psychological problems. i'm not sure what to say, but i really don't recommend vipassana. if you're tired of this life now, it gets really really tough for "normal" people during the Dark Night, and even more so if there are already psychological issues to exacerbate it. you should talk to people who have taken that path themselves - i think triplethink over on KFD has?

Actual Freedom, in my opinion and that of a few others, leads to a much better place, anyway, and you don't have to go through enlightenment to get there, and the path is much much nicer, but i don't know anyone who has done that path that had psychological issues so i don't know what'll happen if you try doing that.

whatever you do, that psychological stuff will probably come up more intensely since it'll have to be dealt with as you progress, so take care and perhaps take extra steps to make sure you have someone you can trust helping you