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7/5/11 1:58 AM
First of all thank you for establishing this wonderful site. Although I don't need validation I nonetheless feel isolated. I feel that I know a secret that is impossible to convey.

The subject I chose is just a phrase. Given I don't know what to call my current state of consciousness I will use 'Stream Entry' since the definitions I have read seem to correspond to what is being experienced. I've read some of the other threads regarding this apparent state of consciousness. Many discuss various states that have been experienced. I will mention some of those states even though they seem to me to be of relative little importance. Wondering why I have arrived at this particular place I've come to the conclusion that I have 'been in the oven long enough'. Yet there are still experiences that may be of some use to others so I will relate those too.

I'm thinking that my background may provide some insight.

Up until last November I have had a recurring dream that I have had for decades. In the dream I'm trying to get somewhere, possibly some notion of 'home' but can never reach it. Various obstacles always were in the way. But more importantly I can see now that 'home' was never clear. I haven't had that dream since.

I had a childhood that was somewhat tumultuous. My parents were abusive. My dad died when I was in high school so I was suddenly thrust out on my own without the skills that were necessary to make a living. The first ten years after high school were particularly difficult and I thought about suicide on more than one occasion. The result of all this was I learned to doubt just about everything. I would see others succeeding and gaining various things and always ask myself then what? I evolved into a dragon slayer, going out and attempting to do everything that I thought I was incapable of. I then projected myself on to the world in an effort to change it.

After about 30 years of that, in 2004 various events made me realize that there was something fundamentally wrong with the world. I know that sounds like a given but I'm talking about something more profound. What the hell is going on? I noticed that people in general were acting stupidly and in a way that did not seem to make sense. Whatever it was I suddenly realized that I may not be able to help change it. I started to meditate at that time. I can't remember right now why I turned inward.

I started to read all of the Buddhist literature I could get my hands on. I've probably read 100 books. I had been meditating for about 7 years doing a tranquility practice that lasted about an hour a day. About a year ago I kicked it into high gear. A vipassana instructor I had been following for awhile started offering phone retreats. I started feeling the need to integrate my practice into life and out of the tranquility zone I had created for myself. I started sitting on the front porch late in the evening. By that time I had learned to pacify my thoughts to a very great extent. I would occasionally get to a point where an extremely high state of awareness would manifest, similar to the gain being turned up on an amplifier. Everything would appear extremely vivid and three dimensional. But that was just a state. It would come and go.

Although my mind was extremely quiet I couldn't help but notice something else was going on, some sort of intention lied underneath. I asked the vipassana instructor about it. He said to do hard determination practice. Then I began sitting without moving and my sits were lasted for periods of about 2 hours. I also started to attempt to meditate during my daily activities. During those times my mind was extremely active. It was then I noticed I was planning everything and I mean everything. I even had a plan for the way I walked through my house. I began to realize I was a frigging robot. The vipassana instructor told me to sit for longer periods. By then I was up to three hours and I was doing it every day. I then realized that my incessant thinking during the day and my planning was based on fear. I started to devise strategies to become more present off the cushion. Then unusual things began to manifest on the cushion, the most noteworthy of which was the sense that parts of my body, particularly my hands weren't mine. Yet I had the feeling they were at the same time.

In November of 2010 we enrolled in a silent retreat with the same vipassana instructor in Colorado. There were many very nice people there and we liked the group. But after a few days something seemed amiss. There were people servicing the retreat serving food and doing other things. They were very kind and would speak to me but it being a silent retreat I wasn't supposed to speak back. That bothered me quite a bit. We were also supposed to be mindful at all times in everything from the way we walked to the way we chewed our food. Then gradually I began to notice something. Everybody started to look to me like robots. I began to ask myself what was not mindful about thanking someone for doing a kind thing? Why do people always have to act like everyone else? Why does walking mindfully have to look so dire? I began to see the difference between doing something versus being something. In retrospect I'm thinking that compassion may have been the liberating force. By that time both my wife and I were experiencing headaches from the altitude so we were forced to leave early. It was on the way home that I had a kensho, an aha! experience.

While listening to an Adyashanti CD about surrender I suddenly realized what I had been doing, what this driving intention was. For years I had been trying to fix myself, make myself a better person. What I realized was that my attempts to fix myself wasn't a problem, it was the problem. There was never anything to fix. Suddenly the notion that we are all already enlightened made sense. We spent the night in a hotel and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. It was when I got home I started to notice some powerful changes in my field of perception.

Now when I sat I decided to do so without any sort of intention. It was then I noticed that time went completely askew. I could sit for 90 minutes, completely lucid and present yet thinking that I had only been there for a few minutes. That happens to me quite often now. On other occasions I would also notice a complete loss of any sense of time. One time I was talking to my wife in bed and would not know if my last comment was 5 minutes or 5 seconds prior. Also on a few occasions I would lose consciousness during sitting. It was like going to sleep but I wasn't at all sleepy. That doesn't happen anymore.

I also began to notice powerful changes in my tactile field. On one occasion while I was mindfully washing the dishes I would get disoriented not knowing where my hands ended and the dishes started. It was then I would start having these euphoric body rushes, goose bumps from the top of my head to my toes. What the hell is this?

I then seemed to get into the habit of sitting in bed late at night staring into a dimly hit wall, not thinking anything, just sort of satisfied. It was like I was meditating automatically. It was then I began to notice something else. It seemed like I could trigger it with a combination of some external sound and vision. At first I couldn't describe it. Things looked the same but different. It was then I realized I was perceiving perception itself. There was also a change in the tactile sensations that felt like that juxtaposition of the body where its limits or boundaries seemed different. It gives the distinct impression that the body is both mine and is not. Now I know that my awareness, the essence of me is driving this body around and this body is not me. It has a very subtle joy in it.

After about a week or so I called the vipassana instructor, not for validation as there did not seem to be a need for any but to find out how to make what was happening last. His words were basically "Congratulations, you have gotten to where very few people end up, including those on the path. What you are experiencing is enlightenment. You've seen the tail end of the ox. All you need to do is to continue what you have been doing. You will go through periods were it will seem as if everything has reverted to what it was. The key is to meet those times with equanimity."

Since November the body rushes have quieted down for the most part. Its funny but everything seems the same yet different. Its like awareness has completely taken charge. I take that back. Awareness is what I am. Its like I'm watching everything like I would during a sit but its gone on automatic. I don't think its possible to turn it off. The irony is that I can't remember what it was like the other way. And I can get caught up in stuff but it doesn't last. Conflict looks like bait. When its abandoned there's an influx of joy. It's like the game is up, despite what anyone tells you resistance is futile. All that you are resisting is yourself. I can see everyone playing identity games everywhere. That's mostly all that everybody seems to be doing. Making up alliances and enemies. At times its so overwhelming I feel like I'm in some sort of surrealistic dream. When you watch people its like you're watching robots. And everything is starting to look like a paradox. Its like you don't understand anything, yet knowing that you don't is in fact understanding everything. I would say that would all add up to bliss if I did not feel so isolated. I know that all of this is words and very few people know what I'm talking about.

The other thing is that I feel an affinity for people I never had before. Talking about 'love' used to make me squirm. I still don't like talking about it but I can't think of any other word for it. There also seems to be some sort of clairvoyance going on. Ridiculous coincidences keep happening on a regular basis. The common thread is that they always seem to involve helping or connecting with other people. I'm really beginning to suspect that there are entities or something else walking around. Its not like a message in my head, stuff just happens. But the ideas for these connections don't seem to be manifesting as thought, it just seems to show up in my consciousness.

As far as sitting goes, up until just recently I haven't really felt there was a need. There's just no intention left. That been said, lately my mind has become a bit active so I've started to sit again. No clocks though. The sits have had a transcendental quality. The only way I could describe them is when thought stops perception appears phenomenological. Sounds and even the darkness behind the eyes are just mystical. That said, every now and then sitting seems pedestrian.

The other thing is that dreaming is often both mystical as well as lucid. I've had some visions there that have been both horrific, pit of the void stuff as well as transcendental.

I don't really need any validation. I would say that intuition tells me that its very important to have a question. The question for me is 'what is true in this world?'. And that seems to be known through subtraction, not addition. I would also enjoy hearing anyone's comments or insights as I don't think my goose is done being cooked.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
7/5/11 3:18 AM as a reply to David Patton.
David Patton:

I don't really need any validation. I would say that intuition tells me that its very important to have a question. The question for me is 'what is true in this world?'. And that seems to be known through subtraction, not addition. I would also enjoy hearing anyone's comments or insights as I don't think my goose is done being cooked.


Several people in this forum, after attaining what is most commonly called "enlightenment" in this day and age, have also concluded that their "goose isn't done" just yet. And then they turned to a practice called "actualism" the goal of which is to completely and permanently remove the instinctive passions of malice, sorrow, nurture, fear, etc.

You might have had, in your experience, moments of complete sensory clarity when "you" (the affective identity, your feelings) were entirely absent, and the world is seen as the wonderful and perfect place it actually is. This is called a Pure Consciousness Experience (PCE). Actualism aims at making such a mode of perception permanent, and it achieves this by elimination of the affective identity, of the feeling of "being" itself, after the subtraction of which one is said to be "actually free".

Here is a link to the actual freedom section of the DhO wiki.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/6/11 3:09 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Hi Bruno

Thank you for your thoughtful input. That's also a fascinating article. It's funny how differently people experience (for lack of a better term) this 'process' or this striipping away. Frankly this approach left me doing a bit of head scratching. For instance, this section:

As one knows from the pure consciousness experiences (PCE’s), which are moments of perfection everybody has at some stage in their life, that it is possible to experience this moment in time and this place in space as perfection personified, ‘I’ set the minimum standard of experience for myself: feeling good. If ‘I’ am not feeling good then ‘I’ have something to look at to find out why. What has happened, between the last time ‘I’ felt good and now? When did ‘I’ feel good last? Five minutes ago? Five hours ago? What happened to end those felicitous feelings? Ahh ... yes: ‘He said that and I ...’. Or: ‘She didn’t do this and I ...’. Or: ‘What I wanted was ...’. Or: ‘I didn’t do ...’. And so on and so on ... one does not have to trace back into one’s childhood ... usually no more than yesterday afternoon at the most (‘feeling good’ is an unambiguous term – it is a general sense of well-being – and if anyone wants to argue about what feeling good means ... then do not even bother trying to do this at all).

The two terms "I" and "good" seem to be somewhat ambiguous as they relate to the state of awareness that is being experienced. That is because this "I" seems to be manifesting as awareness itself . My best guess is that awareness has broken free. The 'experience' that is being referenced in the article seems to be in reference to perception. What is being percieved is no longer relevant to happiness because perception itself is being witnessed, not identified with. It's like you have been installed in a human body like a driver operating a car. I'm not my car. I just rented it. Correspondingly 'feeling good' is no longer subject to the tumultuous world presented through the sense gates. You see most people are endlessly looking to fix the objects of perception (the environment) in an attempt to be happy. But when awareness abides outside of perception happiness manifests itself quite differently. So again, paradoxically there is a sense of peace and joy all the time, even during periods of sorrow. The notion in the article about transcending sorrow actually caught my atention first. It is extremely important that we do not confuse pain with suffering as they are quite distinct.

Yes, there are periods when time comes to a stop. There is no way I could ever describe that. I would just call that truth. There seems to be a bit of comparison shopping going on in the article. It has been my experience that when this desire for preferences or conditions are abandoned, truth seems to appear. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the vipassana term for that is equanimity.

I hope that doesn't sound too mystical shmystical but that's the best I can describe it.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/6/11 11:15 AM as a reply to David Patton.
David Patton:

That is because this "I" seems to be manifesting as awareness itself .


That feeling of being awareness itself goes away during the moments of perfection, when all that remains is this actual physical world (the feeling of "being" is in abeyance).

David:

Yes, there are periods when time comes to a stop. There is no way I could ever describe that. I would just call that truth. There seems to be a bit of comparison shopping going on in the article. It has been my experience that when this desire for preferences or conditions are abandoned, truth seems to appear. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the vipassana term for that is equanimity.

I hope that doesn't sound too mystical shmystical but that's the best I can describe it.


If you have these moments of crystal clear perfection, what is preventing you from living that way all the time? In one word: the identity (which is currently cleverly disguised as being "awareness itself") The identity is made of the passions [1], and can be eradicated by the actualism method.

The method is summarized in the page This moment of being alive.

There is also a brilliant explanation of the qualities of perception that one seeks to vitalize, in the article Attentiveness and Sensuousness and Apperceptiveness.

[1] Questions pointing to this could be — if there is sadness, what is the problem? If there is fear, what is endangered? If there is anger, what is at stake? and so on...

RE: Stream Entry
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7/6/11 5:25 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno

Thanks again for offering up your experiences. This is a wonderful discussion that has created some interesting insights. Correspondingly, some additional clarification is in order.

Your comments:

That feeling of being awareness itself goes away during the moments of perfection, when all that remains is this actual physical world (the feeling of "being" is in abeyance).

I never mentioned anything about a feeling. Feelings would come in the form of body sensations, possibly connected through thoughts. Awareness is neither related to feeling nor is it related to thought. It stands outside and before both.

If you have these moments of crystal clear perfection, what is preventing you from living that way all the time?

Absolutely nothing. Intuition (if you can call it that) also suggests to me that the notion of enlightenment as some sort of endpoint is a mistake. I also don't suffer anymore while driving the car, simply because I can get in and out whenever I want.


In one word: the identity (which is currently cleverly disguised as being "awareness itself") The identity is made of the passions

and

[1] Questions pointing to this could be — if there is sadness, what is the problem? If there is fear, what is endangered? If there is anger, what is at stake? and so on...

This line of reasoning seems to be begging its own question. Sadness no longer presents itself as a problem. 'Problem' to me would be represented by unresolved conflict. That modality seems to be gone. In retrospect it seems that sadness is now only manifesting for others, its not about 'me'. It doesn't take intention (or possibly volition?) or an ego to move in an effort to rescue a puppy from being run over by a car. That comes from the natural state. That realization is a lovely thing. True Compassion is not an emotion whereas compassion based on thought and feeling is nothing more than vanity. As far as fear or anger is concerned those would be like honking the horn or swerving out of the way. Neither create an issue for me anymore. The impulse to avoid death is not a delusion.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/7/11 4:10 AM as a reply to David Patton.
David Patton:

Thanks again for offering up your experiences.


Thank you for your candidness. I'm not speaking out of direct experience — although I have experienced the moments of perfection we are speaking about (PCEs), I have not made them into a permanent condition (called 'actual freedom'). However, this is the goal of my practice, and I am well-informed on how to bring about such a condition, both thanks to the actual freedom website and to exchanges with actually free members of this forum (e.g. Tarin, Trent, Stefanie K. Dunning).

From my understanding of the way things typically progress (and there are several possibilities), I conjecture that you are enlightened in the way enlightenment is understood currently in western mainstream buddhist/zen/etc culture. As I mentioned before, many practitioners in this forum have concluded that such a condition is not enough, to paraphrase, that their goose is still not done, and are or have (successfully) been engaged in becoming actually free.

David Patton:

Absolutely nothing. Intuition (if you can call it that) also suggests to me that the notion of enlightenment as some sort of endpoint is a mistake. I also don't suffer anymore while driving the car, simply because I can get in and out whenever I want.


The view of enlightenment as "the endless path" is, in my opinion, a fallacy fueled by the identity: who would profit from traveling an endless path more than that which fears its own extinction? If there is truly no end-point, then maybe "I" can continue to "exist" forever.

David Patton:

This line of reasoning seems to be begging its own question. Sadness no longer presents itself as a problem. 'Problem' to me would be represented by unresolved conflict. That modality seems to be gone. In retrospect it seems that sadness is now only manifesting for others, its not about 'me'. It doesn't take intention (or possibly volition?) or an ego to move in an effort to rescue a puppy from being run over by a car. That comes from the natural state. That realization is a lovely thing. True Compassion is not an emotion whereas compassion based on thought and feeling is nothing more than vanity. As far as fear or anger is concerned those would be like honking the horn or swerving out of the way. Neither create an issue for me anymore.


I'm happy to hear you have come upon a condition of being virtually free of malice and sorrow, so that these passions are no longer a problem. If indeed malice and sorrow, though they may arise, are never potent enough influence your actions and cause problems, you are indeed doing well! emoticon

But unless you are fully interested and invested in completely eradicating these passions (and hence your identity — for "you" are "your feelings" and "your feelings" are "you"), then it will likely never happen. The way to do it, from the vantage point of being virtually free, is to cultivate PCEs until they happen more and more often, to the point that "you" can "slip out of control," and eventually become extinct.

David Patton:

The impulse to avoid death is not a delusion.


The impulse to avoid death, do you mean the fear-fueled compulsion, or the passionless, sensible decision?

Edit: I think the use of the term virtual freedom was inappropriate, and have marked it with a strikethrough.

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7/6/11 7:30 PM as a reply to David Patton.
David,
Hat's off to achieving this. It appears that you've reached this state without going through any of the Jhanas? Is that correct?
Gerry

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7/6/11 7:44 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying this. One of the other members created a thread about how difficult it was to speak to family members about this stuff. That's just the start. Be careful what you wish for.

My epiphany was the realization that goals were taking me in the opposite direction. I was doing with 'spirituality' the same thing that most people do with life in general. I was trying to get something. If that's the case how is this 'path' of spirituality different than being a materialist? That is a very difficult question to answer. In some ways it's no different but in other ways what is being done here may set the stage for realization.

Here's a possible way around ths enigma. My guess is that the form that the practice takes is important but not central. As you know, enlightenment is not a 'thing', its a clearing away. That been known it becomes obvious that making it a goal is more delusion. Was is more important is arriving at the fundamental doubt of the sanity of common existence. What is needed is a central, burning question. That question is based on a fundamental sense of dissatisfaction. At the same time adopt a practice that looks closely at the nature of your own perception. The more things non-essential to this investigation, including TV, that you can turn off the faster you're going to cook. When you go back and look at that stuff later you will see how mundane and primitive it is. For there to be an answer there must be a question, wouldn't you say?

As far as cooked goose goes I wouldn't equate that with a desire in myself. And I did not mean to imply that enlightenment is a path. Its more like this. Everything is starting to look like a paradox to me. For instance, you mentioned freedom. That caught my attention and held it up like empty space. What is that? Doesn't freedom require bondage? What if neither made any difference? See how the rat keeps hitting the button to get the sugar to come out?

Your kind comments about malice and sorrow have that same taste. Actually malice seems to have receded but sorrow has not and heaven help me if it ever does. It just doesn't cause suffering. Ever had a narcotic that didn't take the pain away but you didn't care if it did? It's vaguely like that.

As far as 'feelings' go it may not be possible to communicate how that works. I would say again that this really has no relevance. There is no where "I" need to get. Think of it this way. For instance, if the two of us changed places you might make the comment I have a headache. Conversely, "I" would say this head has a pain in it.

And "I" don't mean that metaphorically.

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7/6/11 7:48 PM as a reply to Gerry T.
Hi Gerry

Tell me some of the jhana states and I'll tell you if I have had them. I've heard of them but really have not focused my attention on that approach.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/6/11 9:42 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno

Sorry I missed your last question.

David Patton:

The impulse to avoid death is not a delusion.

Bruno Loff:

The impulse to avoid death, do you mean the fear-fueled compulsion, or the passionless, sensible decision?


Any other options? Interesting choices, one driven by emotion, the other purely cerebral, both locked in the paradigm of the sense objects. Are they not?

I'm just guessing but maybe the way a squirrel wants to get out of the way of a car?

My guess is that after the event he doesn't dwell on it.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/7/11 4:09 AM as a reply to David Patton.
David Patton:

Actually malice seems to have receded but sorrow has not and heaven help me if it ever does. It just doesn't cause suffering. Ever had a narcotic that didn't take the pain away but you didn't care if it did? It's vaguely like that.



I think my earlier use of the term virtual freedom was inappropriate, and have marked it with a strikethrough. Indeed it is different to live happy and harmless 99% of the time (meaning sorrow and malice hardly ever arise), and having transcended malice and sorrow (which, I think, is what you are describing).

David Patton:

Sadness no longer presents itself as a problem.

In retrospect it seems that sadness is now only manifesting for others, its not about 'me'.

As far as fear or anger is concerned those would be like honking the horn or swerving out of the way. Neither create an issue for me anymore.


Regardless of you thinking or feeling that sadness, anger, etc is a problem or not, I would like to ask the following question: does the feeling of sadness, anger/irritation, fear, or compassion (or etc), when they arise, ever lead to the action they compel you to do?

David Patton:

Any other options? Interesting choices, one driven by emotion, the other purely cerebral, both locked in the paradigm of the sense objects. Are they not?


Hmm I can think of four forces governing action — habitual response, bodily reflexes, feeling-fueled compulsion, and cognitive will ("I decide to raise my hand").

My question is whether the third is still present in your experience? To wit:

Do you get angry and act in the way anger compels you?

Do you get sad and act in the way sadness compels you?

Do you get frightened and act in the way fear compels you?

Do you get compassionate and act in the way love compels you?

---

And if this ever indeed happens, how would you judge the actual outcome of such passionate actions, in your day-to-day life. Are they always beneficial? For instance, does the feeling of sadness for others change the way you interact with them in a beneficial way?

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7/7/11 10:21 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno

Your questions about intention and the general notion of motivation is what I find the most interesting. There is something going on here that I have never understood before. I've heard realized individuals speak of it.

This is the most insightful statement/question:

Bruno Loff:

Hmm I can think of four forces governing action — habitual response, bodily reflexes, feeling-fueled compulsion, and cognitive will ("I decide to raise my hand").


You know that action does not just include things that are governed by emotion, right? What makes anyone want to do anything? Why would a realized individual get out of bed in the morning? The answer is that I don't know. Like I said before, there seems to be the ability to go in and out of that natural state. In retrospect I'm thinking that is not quite accurate and if you are interested I can tell you why that's the case.

Anyway, I can tell you that when thought is abandoned during activities other than sitting still there seems to be something that resembles floating. On one occasion I was walking with friends in a mall and was just going along with things. There was a definite experience of being carried along, almost like being in a dream. Its actually very nice.

There's a term that was used by the Greeks that was used to describe a way of knowing that transcended the way of thinking we have become used to. They called it nous. The type of mental activity we are used to in the western world they would have described as logos. You have probably heard nous expressed as noetic.

What I do know that everything you listed regarding actions revolve around the sense objects (the human body). In the Buddhist tradition they include the conceptual thinking process as a sense organ and I think they were right to do so. All I can say is that the impression I get is that the basis of who I have become is outside of the corporeal.

I believe that if one's meditation practice is focused on simple observation of the sense objects (that includes the observation of thoughts) and if that is done so with equanimity one will begin to see how awareness stands outside of that. For some reason that process has gone on automatic. The implications of that are immense. For different people this is experienced in different ways. Or maybe it's experienced in the same way and the conceptual mind interprets it differently? I don't know.

By the way, I've thought a bit more about this notion of endpoints and enlightenment. My impression is that my ability to not know seems to be expanding all the time. It almost like experience seems to be reaching into infinity. Its like the more you don't know the more possibilities seem to come into existence. Maybe it would be analogous to orbiting the earth. I've read that has the taste of dumbfounded awe. They may be no limit to that. Sorry if that sounds outrageous but that's the best analogy I can come up with. What is being experienced is actually quite subtle.

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7/7/11 11:47 AM as a reply to David Patton.
David Patton:

(a) You know that action does not just include things that are governed by emotion, right?

(b) What makes anyone want to do anything?

(c) Why would a realized individual get out of bed in the morning? The answer is that I don't know. Like I said before, there seems to be the ability to go in and out of that natural state. In retrospect I'm thinking that is not quite accurate and if you are interested I can tell you why that's the case.


(a) Yes, that is why I mentioned habitual response, bodily reflexes, and cognitive will (which arises from intelligence). Am I missing some other mechanism?

(b) There are two wants: emotional compulsion and cognitive will.

(c) A mix of habit and will, and if this individual still has an identity, the passions (at least that is the case for me). What do you mean "you don't know"? You can easily check by noticing in the morning. The precise mechanisms of how it comes to pass are studied by psychologists and neuroscientists.

David Patton:

What I do know that everything you listed regarding actions revolve around the sense objects (the human body). In the Buddhist tradition they include the conceptual thinking process as a sense organ and I think they were right to do so. All I can say is that the impression I get is that the basis of who I have become is outside of the corporeal.

I believe that if one's meditation practice is focused on simple observation of the sense objects (that includes the observation of thoughts) and if that is done so with equanimity one will begin to see how awareness stands outside of that. For some reason that process has gone on automatic. The implications of that are immense. For different people this is experienced in different ways. Or maybe it's experienced in the same way and the conceptual mind interprets it differently? I don't know.


No need to believe, there is an experiment which you can do, in order to scientifically answer the following question: this impression that you have (that the basis of who you have become is outside of the corporeal), is it a fact? Which exactly is the case:

(1) you are actually not your body, an awareness or emptiness or absolute of sorts, which is not corporeal?

(2) you "feel" that you are not your body, through a mental mechanism that actually just functions in your body?

The experience is simple: you do the practice required to bring about a PCE, and notice how the impression that the basis of who you have become is outside of the corporeal is completely absent, and yet that your body (which is what you actually are), is still here.

If you initially dislike the actualfreedom.com.au texts I've linked to above, you could try Kenneth's "direct mode" practice, which has led a few yogis to PCEs (although it isn't entirely clear if it did so for everyone).

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7/7/11 2:12 PM as a reply to David Patton.
I guess it's just me (since no one else has brought up this idea), but the "body rush" you are describing sounds like first jhāna, and the feeling of being enlightened could be an indication of A&P. It's not uncommon for first jhāna to appear around the same time as A&P.

Another reason I believe you may not have reached stream entry yet is the way you talk about awareness. I know it's all just words, and I do realize your terminology is quite different from mine, but the notion that awareness is different from thought and somehow above or behind or before anything else doesn't really sound like something a stream enterer would say.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you notice your awareness very clearly. You feel that you are the awareness. In other words, you have discovered your true self, your true identity. These are all insights that do happen on the way to stream entry, but stream entry itself then totally changes everything again.

Please take all that I have said with a grain of salt. I may be totally wrong, for at least two reasons: Your method of meditation has been different from mine; and your terminology is very different from mine.

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7/7/11 2:19 PM as a reply to Dauphin Supple Chirp.
Dauphin Supple Chirp:
I guess it's just me (since no one else has brought up this idea), but the "body rush" you are describing sounds like first jhāna, and the feeling of being enlightened could be an indication of A&P. It's not uncommon for first jhāna to appear around the same time as A&P.

Another reason I believe you may not have reached stream entry yet is the way you talk about awareness. I know it's all just words, and I do realize your terminology is quite different from mine, but the notion that awareness is different from thought and somehow above or behind or before anything else doesn't really sound like something a stream enterer would say.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you notice your awareness very clearly. You feel that you are the awareness. In other words, you have discovered your true self, your true identity. These are all insights that do happen on the way to stream entry, but stream entry itself then totally changes everything again.

Please take all that I have said with a grain of salt. I may be totally wrong, for at least two reasons: Your method of meditation has been different from mine; and your terminology is very different from mine.

enlightened people do treat awareness differently, though. this is a quote from an enlightened nun that someone said to Dan Ingram at Cheetah House:

body, feeling, memory, thought, and consciousness, sound sight taste touch smell and emotions, anger greed delusion, all are known, i know them all as they exist, in their own natural states, but no matter how much i'm exposed to them, i'm unable to detect, even an instant, when they have any power over my heart ; they arise, they cease, they are forever changing; but the presence that knows them never changes for an instant. it is forever unborn and undying. this is the end of all suffering.


not to say that brings any bearing on David's experience here, but just pointing it out.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
7/7/11 3:59 PM as a reply to Dauphin Supple Chirp.
Hi Dauphin

Frankly I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the word "enlightenment". It seems to denote a thing or a state and both of those create numerous false impressions. When my dharma teacher used it on me and asked me how I felt about it I told him it didn't make much difference. When you start seeing the world in a radically different way validation isn't necessary. The desire to become something is gone. Besides, what am I attaching it to, the presence that heard it?
Frankly I have no other word to use. How would you describe something which seems totally vacuous that drives a body around? If you want to suggest one to me I'll tell you if it fits.

You're right. Everything I'm saying is probably wrong. Words cannot convey truth. EVER. Short circuit your mind. Believe nothing. See what's left.

I don't know what A&P is so I can't comment on that. And as you implied, the direct perception of reality is not path dependent. You can see that by just looking around.

And maybe you're right. I may be completely delusional. But whatever this is I highly recommend it.

If any of that sounds condescending I humbly apologize.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/7/11 4:20 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman

Nice picture. Reminds me of a girl I knew once.

That's a lovely quote. I've heard many that sound quite similar

I have a couple of degenerative disks in my neck. I'm going through a flare-up right now and there's a lot of pain there. I noticed myself smiling at my wife last night at dinner when she expressed concern about it. The words in that quote express it perfectly. It's just not personal.

People think this 'path' results in some exalted metaphysical state. The fact is that most people are in a state. This gets you out.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/7/11 5:38 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Hi David,

What you're describing sounds like stream entry.

Since you came to the DhO to talk about your experience, you presumably think that people here understand what you're talking about and have also attained it through whatever practices they've done.

If you believe that, then you must also believe that what you're saying is old hat to some of the people who are reading this thread, in the sense that they've had this experience, reflected similarly to the way you have, and perhaps typed out similar paragraphs or make similar claims out loud. The difference is that they continued their practices and eventually came to believe that what you're describing, what they experienced as well, is not a complete understanding of the whole picture.

If you are interested in the possibility of deepening your understanding, please keep an open mind and consider the claims you're making to be provisional and subject to change based on future contemplative practice.

If you don't think that deepening your understanding is possible or don't care to entertain the possibility, that's fine too, but you *are* posting at the DhO, where the possibility of understanding beyond that which arises at stream entry is taken to be a bedrock, obvious fact.

Good luck to you in your future practice or non-practice.

RE: Stream Entry
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7/7/11 6:36 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
Your post caught my attention but I didn't comprehend the last paragraph.

Where is your practice now? I did look at your practice blog on Kenneth Folk. I'd like to hear a bit more as a couple of your comments above reflected like a mirror. I'd also like to know what Ken is telling you to do. I spent some time with Shinzen Young. I'm endebted to him but he's the first to tell you they all make mistakes. And as you know the truth cannot come from outside.

RE: Stream Entry
Answer
7/7/11 7:39 PM as a reply to David Patton.
Before I respond, I'd like to you to look at a post I just wrote in Owen's practice thread on KfD, which sums up some thoughts that will be relevant to this conversation. I've been thinking about those things for awhile, but reading your posts probably brought it to the fore.

All the last paragraph meant is, lots of people who have your perspective seem to be inclined to think that practice is unnecessary, everything is fine the way it is, no effort needed, etc. It's OK if you believe that. But if you do, there seems to be some kind of conflict between believing that and believing that the DhO has people who have also had experiences like yours and understand what those experiences are about, because a cornerstone of what people believe here is that stream entry is only the beginning, practice is necessary, everything is not fine at stream entry, and effort (sometimes outrageous amounts) is needed...beliefs which they came to, perhaps, DESPITE having had the same inclination as you at one point.