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spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/16/11 4:57 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Rin Maryu 7/15/11 11:37 AM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 4:44 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Rin Maryu 7/15/11 1:22 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 4:45 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Ilona c 7/15/11 1:54 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 4:45 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Elena Joy 7/16/11 2:38 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Rin Maryu 7/16/11 4:31 AM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 4:46 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Rin Maryu 7/16/11 10:32 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Ilona c 7/16/11 12:16 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action . . 7/16/11 1:17 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action . . 7/16/11 1:07 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian Weps 7/16/11 2:16 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/16/11 3:28 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Ilona c 7/17/11 5:01 AM
RE: spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 8:42 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Yadid dee 7/17/11 8:58 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian Weps 7/17/11 12:53 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Yadid dee 7/17/11 6:24 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action . . 7/18/11 10:56 AM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 4:46 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action . . 7/19/11 1:17 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/17/11 4:46 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Elena Joy 7/16/11 2:46 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/16/11 3:37 PM
RE: spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread Yadid dee 7/16/11 4:27 PM
RE: spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/16/11 4:58 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Elena Joy 7/16/11 2:47 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread . . 7/16/11 3:35 PM
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/16/11 4:57 PM
Hi Rin, I think, because you wrote that "[you] want to perceive no-self/no-Self at all times" and you call "[your]self/Self...'the watcher'...located in the third eye area", that you intend the meaning of watcher to be evidence of your ongoing selfhood.


Perception of perception renders the interior world (thoughts, feelings) as the same as the outside world. When breeze is felt, there is feeling breeze. When a thought/feeling is felt, however, there is often ownership, and search/creation of new causalities.


Brains generate lots of ideas and feelings based on the chemistry that survived myriad generations, and those generations survived myriad conditions. A brain-body that is good in times of war (victorious general), may not be good in times of peace (rampant serial killer).


Whatever you is, you exists now, in now's inconstant "conditions". Baruch Spinoza existed in the 1600s and lived in his little room grinding glasses, avoiding invitations to a big public life, sending gifted monies to others. Xu Gan assembled mathematical knowledge of his time (200 ad), attempting to avoid military service between feuding overloads of his era. He died from a plague just before feuding came to an end (due to victorious general/rampant serial killer).


It would be easy to think "I am a constant being; I is the Object of my eternity". Maybe that's true. Maybe there is a you-watcher.


Context means a lot though. Asian-american girl subjects who are asked questions about typical female matters (i.e., shopping, girlfriends, children) score lower on tests following those questions of female association (when tested in northeast North America) than when they take tests after they answer questions which re-inforce their Asian-american identities.

_______________

So, what am I?

I wake up sometimes, head hurts, and maybe sadness feeling is there.
Crying may even happen, but it happens without further causalities;
meaning, there is no "I" who "must correct/delve into/hide this sadness".
That feeling is there (like a breeze), probably part of the brain that morning, maybe some homocysteine accrual after some heavy myelination the night before.
Maybe I wake up and happiness feeling is there and I have "big ideas".

To look at the last words of the alpha waves study in meditators:
the meditator becomes more and more sensitive to the condition of the world.
Ok, maybe that is what the meditator becomes.

The "no self" becomes more and more sensitive to the condition of itself as occurring like "outside" world's causality.
"You" is not attached to a tree falling the woods;
a "you" does not need to continue to keep forming in response to itself.


What do you think?




[edit: line added]

[EDIT: header change.
This thread is an offshoot from a direct pointing thread with a volunteer for their approach: "Direct Pointing in Action." A few people from the DhO responded to the volunteer when volunteer was getting frustrated with Direct Pointing (DP). I am one such respondent to the volunteer and asked the thread be broken away again.

This thread very likely does not represent the DP method (because I do not know nor perpetuate it) though there are "direct pointers" communicating herein]
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/15/11 11:37 AM as a reply to . ..
katy s:

What do you think?


I don't know what to think. There is 'me' as a watcher. This 1st person perception. I can't imagine how would it go into cessation. Except maybe in Fruitions. But, I can't live in complete cessations.
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 4:44 AM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
hi rin,

I don't mean to be uselessly fussy, but when you say, "I can't live in complete cessations" then you intend this non-literally, yes?

Meaning, what you mean here is "I do not remain in complete cessations". Yes?

Otherwise, I read your words and think there is something terminally ill or suicidal being said in "can't live". Pardon my literal reading; are you speaking figuratively?

Now back to the point: realization of self-cessation.

1. Do you perceive that the conditions that give rise to a river and a tree (for examples) are like the conditions that give rise to thoughts and feelings, i.e., river, tree, thoughts, feelings share the causality of biological process?
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/15/11 1:22 PM as a reply to . ..
katy s:
hi rin,

I don't mean to be uselessly fussy, but when you say, "I can't live in complete cessations" then you intend this non-literally, yes?

Meaning, what you mean here is "I do not remain in complete cessations". Yes?


Yes.

katy s:

Now back to the point: realization of self-cessation.

1. Do you perceive that the conditions that give rise to a river and a tree (for examples) are like the conditions that give rise to thoughts and feelings, i.e., river, tree, thoughts, feelings share the causality of biological process?


Yes, something like dependent origination? I'm aware of it.
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 4:45 AM as a reply to Rin Maryu.

I don't know what to think. There is 'me' as a watcher. This 1st person perception. I can't imagine how would it go into cessation. Except maybe in Fruitions. But, I can't live in complete cessations.


you as watcher is, to me, perception of perception. what do you think?

you are a human and part of your body is the brain that can perceive its perception. This is normal result of a wired brain, just like sight.

Getting caught up in the watcher (the perception of perception) is like a hall of mirrors repeating themselves. If each mirror is a little warped and unique, then each mirror repeats the original face differently and the process goes on infinitely. "I" is formed because something that can perceive its own perception of its surroundings now takes itself directionally into one or a few of those mirrors: I feel sad, I must be sad. Again, sadness may just result from homocysteine accrual after a night of heavy myelination, which in two days will be "great ideas" which in a doctor's office may be "bipolar". Bah!

Meanwhile, the original face is the original face: you are a human animal, born, growing and will die.

If perception of perception is a human condition (a condition of the human body's brain), then "watcher" is a natural attribute.

This is the same as the feeling of touch that will never go away unless something in the human body's condition is severed or lessened. Our sight diminishing with aging. In old age and pre-death, there is often less ego, less presentation, less covering of oneself with stories (i speak from limited hospice care experience).

If your hand had its own brain, then hand would also have its own independent perception of its perception.
Maybe my right hand would be an arrogant ass always dominating the left hand, simply because biologically the right hand gets certain neuro preference from the head-brain.


Meanwhile, if my left hand had its own brain and could perceive itself, it might cultivate the identity of mild, spiritualist, humbler-taker-of -Lefty's-dominant-streak.


If head-brain directed left-hand brain to play piano, then left-hand's brain might think, "I have a deep rich voice" simply because it plays mostly the piano's leftern-most keys (low notes). Right-hand brain might develop the story for itself: "I am surely a soprano in this world and my duties are more trill-rich than deep, simple Lefty over there."

Bach's fugues would be their meditative tradition for causing equanimity.



Watcher is perception of perception. Knowing this is starts separation from the "I" that adds stories. Not adding becomes uncovering, unbinding, lightening up of the extras that were added.


What do you think?



[edit: one spelling correction, one strike out]
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/15/11 1:54 PM as a reply to . ..
Katy,
I'm sorry, but you are wasting my time here, please leave this thread.
You can talk to rin later.
This in not your playground.
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 4:45 AM as a reply to . ..
so, rin - i have another question: is it "watcher" or "wanter" that is you?
There is 'me' as a watcher.


to realize perception of perception and to recognize this watcher (aka Observer, Awareness) as like any other sense is, in my experience, permits uncovering and dissolution of self-stories.

Without extras, what is this being (me) and what is not me (every thing else) can show their natures more clearly. Seeing "what is" is helpful. For example, if I want to change the oil in my car it's easier to do if I don't have a big blanket over the engine, working with my hands and engine unseen.

A person who has lived a long time without storied extras may look "mystical", however, in my opinion, having added nothing, such being can just see experience "what is" and operate more accurately. Dharma story: old zen monastic walking along cliff edge sees two mewling tiger cubs 100 feet below, mewling for food around the carcass of their parent. Monastic jumps.

Action that is accurate and based on "nothing extra" may not result in classic safety, may not result in classic "compassion"; person who is uncovered is still their own unique aggregate of biological causality. That uncovered entity adding nothing extra experiences what is.

So, watcher (perception of perception) is no problem, like seeing/touching/hearing is no problem. Seeing helps me see the keys to type. watcher shows what this reproductive-age female human being is feeling-thinking and (wanting to) adding in response to itself and its environment.

Just as seeing/touching/hearing can be made painful with certain stimulus, so too can watcher become painful by adding certain repetitive perceptions: someone outside may bully, something internal may bully. Someone outside may arouse a self, something internal may arouse a self.

No self adds nothing extra. What is extra? This is like saying, only right action is taken (only nothing extra is done, only just enough is done). Like an instrument, mastery occurs with time-in. Stream-entry opens the door. Effort to stay there at every second becomes mastery.

Even in mastery (the alpha wave study first mentioned above), someone may look at the old monastic jumping off the cliff and think, "idiot".


What do you think?


[also: i leave the thread per request above]

[edits: spelling, grammar]

[Edit: rin, if you realize now that watcher is fine and will only arrive eventually when it is apt, then do you now "want" something else/extra? Wanting/yearning is very common for the self that made itself.]
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 2:38 PM as a reply to . ..
Thanks, Florian, for cutting off this piece from the original thread.
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 4:31 AM as a reply to . ..
katy s:

Stream-entry opens the door. Effort to stay there at every second becomes mastery.


Effort to stay where? In cessation attainment?

katy s:

What do you think?


Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the posts.
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 4:46 AM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
You're welcome.

To continue, this thread should break out elsewhere. Illona's fonts are getting larger and swollen; such is the aroused state.

Otherwise, to consider your last questions:

Effort to stay where? In cessation attainment?

Cessation attainment is the full stop of arising selfhood. No more "effort". (This does not mean sustaining one's own life is without efforts (i.e.,water, food) and higher-order interests of being a cognitive animal).

Efforting is allowing the self-forming mechanism to wind down, come to a full stop.

If I add extras to mere natural processes (like HPA dysregulation, an underlying biological process of anxiety - which may be triggered by an external stressor in early childhood, or an ongoing stressor throughout a period of life, or by self-thinking) and if I cause perception of perception to become fictional, then a comment like, "Oh, woe, I am an anxious person" will form and the self-hood reforms on this fiction.

What can be done, if the feeling wave is so strong that it is incapacitating - i.e, if there is uncontrollable bodily shaking, is let perception perceive all the component sensations arising (as you probably already do with vipassana). It is important, however, that "you" knows" not to add fictional stories to this ("I am an anxious person", "my grandfather was an anxious person..." and so forth). I gave an example of "bipolar" above. I am not bipolar, however, it is clear some people (Georg Cantor) live with these more apparently tidal brains.

Consider the bore tide - a big wall of water coming every 12 hours: so too a person with lots of cerebral nerves and nerve-creation/myelination. Such a person will have an ideaphoric period, followed by a majorly depressed period.

So the brain myelinates during the learning. There are bi-products of myelination which are "toxic" if they cannot be broken down (homocysteine) into the readily digestible bits (cysteine). If Georg Cantor (and his culture) knew that it was perfectly normal to have heaving feeling, tears coming down face, pressure in skull after a few days of abundant myelination (new learning, new thinking) and he learned to let this body response happen without self-attack/loathing (the same as we permit the feeling of soreness which occurs for about a week after a long run/marathon) then perhaps Georg would not have hung himself and our world would have a bit more useful math, as well as tremendous acceptance for the biological underlyers of our respective beings.

Effort aspect:
There can exist for some time after the pivotal first realization/clear sight/stream entry/visceral shift an effort to nip in the bud a building upon this perception of perception with stories:
Take anxiety-story: that has a biological process (HPA axis dysregulation is a part): it may take a few weeks of exercise, reduced caffeine, breathing meditation, yoga, massage etc, and early-to-bed sleep to let that brain process re-regulate.

Meanwhile, on the self-process front, each time a wave of anxiety hits (not sure if anxiety is your issue, btw, this is just an example from my own experience) realize that the underlyer is a process (adrenal glands+cortisol re-bathing and re-bathing the hippocampus) and there is no need to follow it with stories (i.e., no adding "I am an anxious person"), no more than you follow the branches of a tree moving in a breeze, except as a feature of sight and, perhaps, wonder (and self-cessation results in a lot of wonder, IMO).

So, if "watcher" (personified perception of perception) is no longer perceived as a hindrance, how do you describe experience now?

[Edits: spelling, clean-up]

[rin, i added a distinction regarding "watcher" - watcher-state could be considered more than "perception of perception" because it has an element of personification in it - the "I-ness", thus "personified perception of perception".

It may be finer point, or one you see easily, and not to be a source for snagging "you". The story-making I-ness which forms a watcher-on-top-of-perception-of-perception attenuates over time, knowing it is extra, the same as I do not wear a pair of shoes over a pair of shoes (unless they are rubbers for the rain)

So, lastly, the above examples (i.e., anxiety) are larger personifications of perception of perception, but attaching to perception of perception and attributing it person-ness (watcher) is the same.]
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 10:32 AM as a reply to . ..
What about the 'self' as the source of all intention? There must be some degree of control over our mind and bodies - and the 'self' does that by using intentions. Or is there no control at all?
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 12:16 PM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
Rin, self is a thought, thought does not think, there is no self, just like there is no pink elephant outside your window.
Do you see no-elephant?
No, you just see what is there, not what isn't.
Self is not a source of anything. It does not exist in reality, just like pink elephant.

You are making this all complicated when really need to simplify. Truth is that which can not be simpler. It's lies that are complicated.

And Katy is not helping, but feeding you her own bullshit. Which you happily accept as that means you don't need to think.
You have to decide, if you want truth, you tell her to go away from here and keep looking. You have to sit down and figure it all by yourself.

If you want to talk with Katy about bullshit, go ahead, it's your life. I'm off then. I'm working further with you only if you are serrious about your own liberation.

Your call.


Big thanks to Katy for distraction, you are doing very well, rin is listening to you rather than looking for himself.
I'd say figure it all out for yourself first, before jumping in here with your useless advice.
And the big letters that Elena posted are because of you, don't you see? Attention seeking leacher with head full of crap. Why don't you start a thread and share all your opinions there, from what I see you are full of them. Very nice!

What is it gonna be?
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 4:46 AM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
Hi Rin,

I choose to space your words in below caption in order to see the concepts more clearly in terms of my visual perception
What about the 'self' as the source of all intention?

There must be some degree of control over our mind and bodies - and the 'self' does that by using intentions.

Or is there no control at all?


So, what about the 'self' as the source for all intention*?

What is the degree of control, from breathing while you sleep to deciding to pee, to learning piano?

Do you think there is no control at all?



__________
*
Intention has many meanings in English. A sample from the compact edition of the Oxford English Dictionary:
stretch, extend, strain, direct one's thoughts or facilities, occupy oneself, turn ones attention to, purpose, maintain, assert, endeavor, to understand, to interpret


When I have used "intend" in this thread I have used it as "purpose" (i.e., "that [your purpose] for the meaning of watcher [is] evidence of your ongoing selfhood.")
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 4:46 AM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
Rin, here is a reply to your earlier thread:
Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the posts.


You are welcome.

What sounded reasonable?
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 1:17 PM as a reply to Ilona c.
Rin,
I interpret apt aspects of Illona's points in this thread as "stay experiential".
DhO is very much experiential. Immediate now is ultimately where a being finds stillness and uncovered state*.

Yet, a balance of cognitive reconciliation with experience may be useful.

I personally found it useful to exhaust my cognitive faculty. If debating/questioning/stating had not been available on the DhO I do not know how I would have left "dark night".

So, while a certain amount of this idea discussion may be useful (and I provided scientific views of affective states so that you might consider the source of your own evanescent selfhood as arising from conditions of evanescent biochemistry and physiology), at some point a will to be in immediate now must get much effort regardless of cognitive reconciliation (bouncing ideas around).

Ideas are not pointless and, if there are impediments, they must be dealt with. However, like swimming, there is discussion and there is doing.

Pure intention for uncovering meant, for me, after exhausting the logical cognition drive, that I be completely experiential - attention to every single moment. Immediate now. In that practice, there was no longer room for logical reconciliation.

What is immediate now for you?


[edit: spelling, grammar]

[*Addition: not only does a being "find stillness and uncovered state", in not being irrelevantly in the past or future (or intellectual cognition), then being is a quality of stillness itself and it is being uncovered of that which is not apt.]
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 1:07 PM as a reply to . ..
There are many posts here now Rin.


If it is relevant for you to know, I do remember feeling full of will for self-cessation at the same time being full of self-extras.


In what practice do you think you should spend your time: more sitting meditation, immediate now actuality watching not attaching to affectation, cognitive discourse, something else?
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 2:16 PM as a reply to Ilona c.
Hi Ilona,

This is a moderator post.

Ilona c:
Attention seeking leacher with head full of crap. Why don't you start a thread and share all your opinions there, from what I see you are full of them.


There is no need to express your exasperation in terms such as these.

If your points are valid, they still lose by the standards of this forum. If they are not valid, they gain nothing by being expressed in terms such as these.

In fact, it goes counter to the spirit of the Dharma Overground to resort to this manner of posting. Please refrain from doing so in the future, as it will not be tolerated. I'll refer you to the Welcome Page for a list of what is considered useful and appropriate here.

I really hope that you and Rin will be able to continue this process here in the open, as there seems to be some interest in this approach to awakening.

Cheers,
Florian
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 2:47 PM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
Rin Maryu:
katy s:

What do you think?


I don't know what to think. There is 'me' as a watcher. This 1st person perception. I can't imagine how would it go into cessation. Except maybe in Fruitions. But, I can't live in complete cessations.


Katy, you operate with assumptions and learned concepts. The only truth you said here is "I can't live in complete cessations" because if you were in complete cessation, you would not be able to write this sentence. True.
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/16/11 2:46 PM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
katy s:

Stream-entry opens the door. Effort to stay there at every second becomes mastery.


Yes on stream entry. Off the mark on the second part of your sentence. No effort. No. No No.
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/16/11 3:28 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Hi Florian -

I have tried to change the subject header to "spinoff from a direct pointing thread".

Are you able to make this subject header change?

Tho this thread may be informational to persons interested in the direct pointers' characteristics, the subject header could more accurately reflect its origins.

___
edit: subject header changed locally. Does liferay allow a global change?
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/16/11 3:35 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
hi elena - rin wrote the sentence you have quoted; your quote field reflects this.
spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/16/11 3:37 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
hi elena - if you read the thread, you will find more information on effort.

[edit: header change]
RE: spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/16/11 4:27 PM as a reply to . ..
Katy,
I think that you could change the thread's title by changing the subject of your very first post on this thread.
RE: spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/16/11 4:58 PM as a reply to Yadid dee.
thank you
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/17/11 5:01 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Thank you florian for keeping that thread clean. Sorry I used the words that I used, but I had to at the time. I won't do this again, promise.

I respect this forum and love working with rin. I find that people who have been on search are more difficult to pop as there are so many precious beliefs about it stored in the system close to the heart.

Only way to break free is by questioning them, not adding more beliefs over which Katy was doing there. I took it as invasion, since she did not get off the thread when asked politely, so I had to make sure it stops. It worked.
RE: spinoff from someone's direct pointing thread
7/17/11 8:42 AM as a reply to Ilona c.
Ilona and Elena -

As a reminder, the volunteer in Ilona's "direct pointing" thread terminated their involvement, at which point DhO members responded (Beoman, Nikolai, me) to the volunteer's initial goal: self-cessation.

After volunteer's 17 posts over 8 days, direct pointer gave the following assessment to volunteer:
So far you have demonstrated zero desire to crack this thing, It's either you are dumb or lazy
.

In ceasing to volunteer in direct pointing, volunteer asked questions of one of the respondents (mine) and I replied as often as a question was asked.

Termination of direct pointing and continuing with dialogue that is producing interest results in direct pointers introducing ideas of "BS" and "bullshit" and "crap".




If direct pointing is a useful method, its volunteers should benefit by conditions of ready insult, feces and aggression.




[EDIT: today, header changes have been made to all entries which I can change]
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/17/11 8:58 AM as a reply to Ilona c.
Ilona c:
Sorry I used the words that I used, but I had to at the time. I won't do this again, promise.
I took it as invasion, since she did not get off the thread when asked politely, so I had to make sure it stops. It worked.


Ilona,
Whatever insight you may have, your posts reflect, in my eyes, rigidness, lack of maturity and territoriality (invasion?).

I don't see any reason that you should "make sure" people stop posting on certain threads, nor do I see justification to use the language that you used against katy's posts, which are as legitimate as yours, and you apparently still lack the maturity to see through your own point of view on this one ("had to at the time").

Do you see the absurdity of the fact that you try to preach some sort of enlightenment, yet post stuff which seem like childish terrioriality?

Since it is quite obvious there are practitioners with a more comprehensive understanding and a deeper realization than you, wouldn't you rather keep an open mind towards other people's posts, rather than trying to dispell them from "your" thread?
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/17/11 12:53 PM as a reply to Yadid dee.
Yadid, Katy,

The original thread was intended a demonstration of Direct Pointing by a regular of the Ruthless Truth forum. It was to be a dialogue between two people, one pointing, the other one looking.

When other posters started to comment in that thread, the entire purpose of that thread was changed. Understandably, there was a bit of irritation - you know: we, the DhO, invite someone to give a demonstration, a DhOer even volunteers to participate - then the demonstration is disrupted, then there is talk of territoriality... see how that looks like a weird thing of us to do?

Please calm down, everybody. When we advertise the supportive spirit of exploring spiritual practices on the front page, we can't get all worked up over some people actually exploring something not explored here before. Besides, I don't enjoy wearing the moderator's hat all the time.

Here's to openness regarding what the techniques may lead to and how these contrast or align with the traditional models and the spirit of mutual, supportive adventurers on the path.

Cheers,
Florian
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/17/11 6:24 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Yadid, Katy,

The original thread was intended a demonstration of Direct Pointing by a regular of the Ruthless Truth forum. It was to be a dialogue between two people, one pointing, the other one looking.

When other posters started to comment in that thread, the entire purpose of that thread was changed. Understandably, there was a bit of irritation - you know: we, the DhO, invite someone to give a demonstration, a DhOer even volunteers to participate - then the demonstration is disrupted, then there is talk of territoriality... see how that looks like a weird thing of us to do?

Please calm down, everybody. When we advertise the supportive spirit of exploring spiritual practices on the front page, we can't get all worked up over some people actually exploring something not explored here before. Besides, I don't enjoy wearing the moderator's hat all the time.

Here's to openness regarding what the techniques may lead to and how these contrast or align with the traditional models and the spirit of mutual, supportive adventurers on the path.

Cheers,
Florian


Hi Florian,

I see your point in regards to the thread and the one-on-one nature of the thing, that's cool, and thanks for the offer to calm down emoticon although i am pretty calm at the moment i suppose i could be calmer.

anywho, i just dont see how that turns into telling people their head is full of crap, or lazy or that they are just full of bs opinions and so on.. just doesn't seem appropriate to me thats all, and thats what i was getting it, but thats just one man's opinion, without any ill intention.

sorry if my post came off as offensive.
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/18/11 10:56 AM as a reply to Yadid dee.
hello
now
RE: Direct Pointing in Action
7/19/11 1:17 PM as a reply to Rin Maryu.
Rin
What about the 'self' as the source of all intention? There must be some degree of control over our mind and bodies - and the 'self' does that by using intentions. Or is there no control at all?


Someone on DhO recently recommended Thanissaro's 4-part talk on mindfulness and concentration (used together to realize full unbinding). At 15:30 in the fourth recording (about 33m in total) Bhikku speaks of the source of intention and Gotama's decision "to look into [his] intentions at the present moment, to see is it possible to stop intending in the present moment".

Prior to this moment in the recording there is brief discussion of what is fashioned/fabricated consciousness (i.e., clinging (to witness, to equanimity, to more subtle fabrications)) - "fabrications are your habit of creating your experience". (Quotation marks are placed around Bhikku's words)

At 27:44 Bhikku paraphrases the text he is reading that one of the ways to get "to the dimension of nothingness" is thus to "just hold on to that perception of not self". This may be the preferred starting focus of the direct pointing people, entry into no self by way of a statement of no self, i.e.,

Ilona 7/3/11 "Direct pointing in Action" thread
first, there isn no such thing as no self/no Self. No self is not to be percieved, but once you through, it is seen, that there is no self at all in real life.



Part 4 of Bhikku's recording also returns to the dimension of "neither perception nor non-perception" (a dimension which is said to be describable only in exiting it (and thus only the exiting would be describable, not even the dimension itself) and can be a "supreme clinging", a supreme sustenance.

Here is an excerpt from Access to Insight on this last point, the lack of all clinging and total unbinding (MN 106):
"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

[Ananda] "Amazing...But what is the noble liberation?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'


[edits: grammar, clarification]