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Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?

For a number of years now I've been dealing with the Dark Night or whatever you'd like to call it, maybe just psych stuff that doesn't have an easy solution. Anyway, I'm afraid it might be destroying my body physically, which would really suck hardcore balls. For example, I had a chronic foot injury back when I was in Germany that would just not seem to heal, where my foot would get swollen and sometimes be in enough pain that it'd be difficult to walk on it without limping home. It seems to have gotten better when I came back to the states and I've even been able to keep doing daily Tai-Chi (which despite me doing it an average of 15-20 mins a day does NOT help with that sort of thing apparently) and jogging some days. I got an xray when I got back to the states and they told me the nodule on the top of my foot was arthritis...I'm a little young for arthritis anywhere. I'm always dealing with all kinds of bodily tension and stiffness and such despite my best efforts in meditation and Tai-Chi, so either I have to dedicate an absurd amount of time daily to practice or else something's not shaking out right.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
8/4/11 6:45 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
EH - I gotta PM you on that one... Check your mail.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
8/4/11 11:26 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Hi Mike,

Read some Osho perhaps?

There's no more health-giving way of life than that of fulfilling desires. Just make sure they are your own authentic desires*, and not those of your parents or society. Your foot will heal itself the moment you start living that way.

This path of desire leads naturally to jhana, and then to insight, but it's the long way to do it. To try to skip ahead of desire is what creates hiccups. Desire is where you are at...now. Desire has a purpose well beyond mere survival of the species.

Tolle and McKenna are two examples of people who took what I'd call the backdoor to enlightenment. They grew so depressed (from living inauthentically) that their minds eventually got jolted out of 'cause and effect' and into Truth. I guess that's one way of doing it, but it comes with risks. Ill health and self-harm would be the main ones. A common complaint about McKenna is that he has no heart (ie. no ability to love). I'd agree and I'd level the same criticism at Richard and the AF army. The head is enlightened and the heart is stone cold dead. When Buddha denounced the way of the ascetic, I reckon he's just saying "sure it can work, but it's not natural.... forget it". Adya at least recognizes the importance of freeing the heart first.

Got a 'bucket list'?

*authentic desires are ones that, when contemplated, create excitement, and when fulfilled, create enjoyment/satisfaction (but without hurting yourself or others). If your desire doesn't fulfil these criteria, then it's not authentic. It's easy it falls short of creating excitement/satisfaction. One other important criterion is that an authentic desire leads you froward to another authentic desire, creating growth and progress. eg. when you were a kid, you desired toys. When you had had enough toys and play time, you grew out of that naturally. When you're a teenager you desire nightclubs, alcohol, sex and friends.... then you grow out of that naturally too.... and so on. The dudes in here say that desire is an endless loop but that's wrong. Desire is the Path.

editing as I go! I think I'm finally outgrowing this site, and it feels great!

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/5/11 12:11 AM as a reply to C C C.
Mmmm interesting ideas, though I don't agree with some of them. It's a little easier for me to describe in brief where I feel I'm at in general than to critique what I don't agree with. In short, I don't really believe many of the traditional views of Buddhism match up with my experience of the world, though things like the Three Characteristics do. I don't believe desire is something inherently to detach from, unless that happens by itself as part of some other natural process in yourself. I've heard someone say in a Buddhist Geeks podcast once, that for many Buddhists their vision of who they are spiritually gets segmented off from the rest of their lives, and that the way they practice has too many "shoulds" associated with it, way too much guilt and obligation. That I agree with, having done it plenty to little effect. In order to be really representative of my life, a method has to be non-prejudicial. This is why Zen and basic Vipassana are the closest thing to really suitable I've found, though I suppose Zen has its own things you can critique.

I will say I agree with you about the heart having to be in accordance with the head. There's a pretty widespread sense throughout Buddhism that the "heart" essentially equates to lies and the Self leading you off the correct path to happiness. That doesn't make any sense to me, simply because it's 'there' already, and any doctrine or method that tells you to turn off parts of your experience or alter it somehow seems to contradict a true coming to terms with your reality. AF for example is not my way of doing things, though I do think it just works for some people; if it for all intents and purposes works in their experience, then that's enough. That subjectivity of things is also what makes me doubt the more traditional criteria for enlightenment. For example, if I'm a stream-enterer I'm supposed to have let go of what is it, the first 4 fetters? I'm a bad Buddhist emoticon But what if someone has a different experience? What if they don't experience 'fruition' per se, but in their own way they acrue a lot of wisdom about life and awaken without an 'event' of some kind? I've met people now and then who seem pretty content and wise in a common sense kind of way without any religious path. Does that make them somehow less enlightened? Most people on this site would say yes, that until they've met this specific set of criteria they are still stuck in some territory or another, but I do not agree.

Daniel mentions in MCTB that Buddhist practice is not a cure for other aspects of life, like morality, and that becomes more and more glaringly apparent to me. Society is not what I would like it to be and does not allow me to live healthily, what can meditation do about that? Not very much. At the end of the day I still can't live the way I want to, because certain social realities are just so. These are however also aspects of my experience, even if they are external to me and mostly out of my control. So if Buddhism does not concern itself with that, then what does hold an answer?

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/5/11 6:24 AM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Not very much. At the end of the day I still can't live the way I want to, because certain social realities are just so. These are however also aspects of my experience, even if they are external to me and mostly out of my control. So if Buddhism does not concern itself with that, then what does hold an answer?

I've criticized people for saying this before, but my current experience convinces me that Actual Freedom gets this sorted out once and for all. I got 4th path earlier this year and, wonderful as it is, it doesn't deal with the sort of things you're talking about here. It's worth doing, don't get me wrong, but I'll be 100% honest with you here and say that it does not end suffering entirely.

And just to address CCC's opinion that "desire is the path". Desire is an affective feeling which supports a sense of there being a "me" here to experience this moment, the belief that "desire is the path" will continually loop one back into this cycle. Don't take my word for it, test it out for yourself.

Another point of view is that, by using desire as a vehicle, one can exhaust it entirely which leads you into a stage of one-pointed consciousness known as "gnosis". This approach is something I used when working with chaos magick and it can be effective for some things but it does not end suffering.

I'm not getting involved in a back and forth with CCC, I have no interest in doing so but I wanted to offer an opinion based on experience, not on what I've read in a book.

emoticon

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
8/5/11 11:06 AM as a reply to Mike Kich.
You bring up many different aspect of Buddhist thought and practice. I'll try to address a few. The summary of what I have to say is, to put it bluntly, I don't think you understand Buddhism very well, Mike. I'm not saying that as criticism, I just think that if you're gonna decide what Buddhism is and isn't you should understand it better. If you're really interested in learning more, you should find a good balanced source (or several), read what they have to see and contemplate what it means. I think you'll find there's more there than what you've seen so far.

Mike Kich:
I don't believe desire is something inherently to detach from, unless that happens by itself as part of some other natural process in yourself.


Try sitting with the feeling of wanting something, like maybe a new electronic gadget that just came out (if you're into that) or a girl you're interested in or whatever. How does it feel? How does it feel in your mind? How does it feel in your body? Do you think it leads to to happiness or does it lead to more suffering?

Mike Kich:

I've heard someone say in a Buddhist Geeks podcast once, that for many Buddhists their vision of who they are spiritually gets segmented off from the rest of their lives, and that the way they practice has too many "shoulds" associated with it, way too much guilt and obligation. That I agree with, having done it plenty to little effect. In order to be really representative of my life, a method has to be non-prejudicial. This is why Zen and basic Vipassana are the closest thing to really suitable I've found, though I suppose Zen has its own things you can critique.


I think the person that was speaking in that podcast was giving that as an example of misunderstanding or misapplying buddhist practice. This practice is not about "shoulds," neither is it about guilt or obligation. All of these things come from buying into the ego's stories. This is exactly what we're trying to find freedom from! The attitude that one uses while doing vipassana practice or when sitting zen doesn't have to be limited to the cushion. You can bring that attitude to every part of your life and when you do, there is no more "should" there is just what is and what comes as a result of that.


Mike Kich:

I will say I agree with you about the heart having to be in accordance with the head. There's a pretty widespread sense throughout Buddhism that the "heart" essentially equates to lies and the Self leading you off the correct path to happiness. That doesn't make any sense to me, simply because it's 'there' already, and any doctrine or method that tells you to turn off parts of your experience or alter it somehow seems to contradict a true coming to terms with your reality.


I'm not sure where you got the idea about the heart equated to lies. It is completely the opposite of how I understand Buddhist thought and from my own experience of practice as well. There is a word in Pali (the language of the Suttas) - Citta - meaning heart-mind and when the suttas talk about the mind they mostly use this term, citta. This, in my opinion, points to the importance they place on the connection between heart and mind. In fact, at the time of the Buddha (and I think still today to some degree), the seat of the mind was in the heart. To see the importance of Heart in the practice you need only look at the importance of teaching about morality, generosity, no-harm, joy and, of course, the four divine abodes (said to be where the enlightened mind dwells): Love, Compassion, Joy and Equanimity.

Mike Kich:

AF for example is not my way of doing things, though I do think it just works for some people; if it for all intents and purposes works in their experience, then that's enough.


As far as I know, AF people say there is no connection between AF and buddhism. It's a different practice leading to something different. So I'm gonna leave that out.

Mike Kich:

That subjectivity of things is also what makes me doubt the more traditional criteria for enlightenment. For example, if I'm a stream-enterer I'm supposed to have let go of what is it, the first 4 fetters? I'm a bad Buddhist emoticon But what if someone has a different experience? What if they don't experience 'fruition' per se, but in their own way they acrue a lot of wisdom about life and awaken without an 'event' of some kind? I've met people now and then who seem pretty content and wise in a common sense kind of way without any religious path. Does that make them somehow less enlightened? Most people on this site would say yes, that until they've met this specific set of criteria they are still stuck in some territory or another, but I do not agree.


There's a wise zen saying: "There are no enlightened people, only enlightened actions." Enlightened people can sometime be total assholes and the random person in the street can sometimes be a source of sublime wisdom. When it comes down to it, enlightenment is not an end in and of itself. Enlightenment is a beginning. It allows you to see the world more clearly and to act out wholesome intentions. It doesn't make you an infallible saint, it doesn't make you invulnerable, it doesn't make you anything. What I think it does is it lets you see your own truth very clearly and lets you act out of that truth. It removes the obstacles that blind you and that bind you and lets you just be. It is still up to you to act out of that truth or not.

Mike Kich:

Daniel mentions in MCTB that Buddhist practice is not a cure for other aspects of life, like morality, and that becomes more and more glaringly apparent to me. Society is not what I would like it to be and does not allow me to live healthily, what can meditation do about that? Not very much. At the end of the day I still can't live the way I want to, because certain social realities are just so. These are however also aspects of my experience, even if they are external to me and mostly out of my control. So if Buddhism does not concern itself with that, then what does hold an answer?


First of all, Daniel also says that morality is an important part of Buddhism. The first and the last teaching, in fact. So while Buddhist practice won't make you a saint (will anything??) it does have a lot of good advice and good practices on how to do better in the world. Meditation is just one part of the practice. An important part, for sure, but not the whole thing. Practicing generosity, for example, is a very important part of the training in morality. Three steps in the Eightfold path are about morality and two or three more can be related to it as well. Only 2 or 3 are specifically about meditation. If you want to see what Buddhism is about, I suggest checking out those parts as well.

The second part of what you say is more complicated. How is it that you want to live your life? What kind of society do you envision living in?

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/7/11 3:35 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
I am interested to hear what you can tell me about Chaos Magick; I've played around with very basic exercises now and then to see how they work and IF they work. So far, I'd say it hasn't worked, though I'm interested to hear more about it and maybe still dabble with it nonetheless.

I don't know if you follow the folks over at The Baptist's Head, but one of the admins of that site, Alan Chapman I think is his name, wrote a couple of magical primers that are very basic but contain everything you really need to know to get started. He especially talks about a technique that I think Crowley first brought up called, "Knowledge and Conversation with The Holy Guardian Angel". He calls it using Dualism against itself; as I understand it (correct me if I've misunderstood points of this) whatever the HGA is or however it manifests to you, it guides you down the path to Enlightenment without you having to do anything more than what "it" indicates you should do. Interesting concept. MY question becomes then: Does the Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA equate with the Arising and Passing Away, or can it be seen as something different?

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/7/11 4:28 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Aye, it was actually BH which brought me to MCTB and this place, Alan's a clever guy and really knows his stuff but I haven't kept up with him since he closed "Open Enlightenment" a while ago.

Something useful to try when doing magick is taking on the belief that it does work as any doubt in the effectiveness of the ritual/technique will scupper your efforts. Beliefs are a massive part of chaos magick, there's a lot of emphasis on belief shifting, dismantling and experimenting with different 'reality tunnels' which demonstrates experientially the malleability of consensus reality. It's basically freeform magick, a pick n' mix from every tradition you can think of and a whole lot of stuff you wouldn't even consider to be remotely magickal e.g. Invoking Harpo Marx. emoticon

What is it that you're looking to find out about, I'll try to answer as best I can.

Mapping the kabbalistic system of attainment along with the 4 path system is a fucking nightmare, for every consistency you find there's another ten inconsistencies which make it incredibly difficult to accurately work with. It is possible, to a point, to assign the HGA to the A&P and the symbolism of the kabbalistic tree here, the sephiroth called Tiphareth, does line up to some extent but it's a herculean task to try resolving this completely.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/7/11 6:48 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Something useful to try when doing magick is taking on the belief that it does work as any doubt in the effectiveness of the ritual/technique will scupper your efforts. Beliefs are a massive part of chaos magick, there's a lot of emphasis on belief shifting, dismantling and experimenting with different 'reality tunnels' which demonstrates experientially the malleability of consensus reality. It's basically freeform magick, a pick n' mix from every tradition you can think of and a whole lot of stuff you wouldn't even consider to be remotely magickal e.g. Invoking Harpo Marx.


I have massive trouble with doubt in general still, so that part definitely is a hindrance to me yet. I really really like the overall ideas behind this though, like tuning into synchronicities and such, partly because I myself have experienced them again and again even without formally trying out Magick much. One thing I also like is that Western Magick seems like something much closer culturally in its attitudes and approaches. It is after all a "Western" methodology. I don't know though exactly where Alan departs from Chaos magick's beliefs and practices though, that I'd be interested to find out.

Most of what I want with Magick has to do with HGA work, since that's what I most want. I would be lying though if I said I didn't find other uses of it intriguing too, haha. As far as I know, I have not managed to attain Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA as Alan describes it. I guess if I want to ask you anything, it is: how would you suggest I form a solid foundation to get started in earnest instead of just dabbling?

Also, thank you to everyone for your gracious replies. emoticon

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/22/11 5:45 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
I got 4th path earlier this year and, wonderful as it is, it doesn't deal with the sort of things you're talking about here. It's worth doing, don't get me wrong, but I'll be 100% honest with you here and say that it does not end suffering entirely.


I very much appreciate your honesty. What's the point at all then? If it doesn't end suffering entirely, then it doesn't live up to its mandate, and the purpose of putting in all this time and effort is kinda moot, don't you think? I'm not trying to be critical of you specifically, so please don't take it that way. I'm saying, this general area of discussion is hinted at frequently by teachers and experienced meditators but danced around and not really just answered in a straight yes-or-no kind of fashion. You say it's worth doing, so why is it worth doing? Are you contented?

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/23/11 8:21 AM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Take a look at Owen Becker's Practice Journal, Part II on KFD: http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4145141/Owen%27s+Practice+Journal%2C+Part+II and then ask yourself whether it's worth it or not.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/31/11 3:14 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Well I originally just wanted to hear what Tommy could explain about what he meant, though you know you're always welcome to add your two cents. I just want straight answers, that's all.

Semi-lucid dreams with all kinds of disjointed, sometimes violent and disturbing imagery, and experience of the hindrances both are really profuse in general lately.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/31/11 8:44 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
You know, insight is wonderful and all that, but you might also want to work on your manners. My two cents.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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8/31/11 9:12 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Mike Kich 8/22:
What's the point at all then? If it doesn't end suffering entirely, then it doesn't live up to its mandate, and the purpose of putting in all this time and effort is kinda moot, don't you think?

...

You say it's worth doing, so why is it worth doing? Are you contented?


Mike Kich 8/31
...

Semi-lucid dreams with all kinds of disjointed, sometimes violent and disturbing imagery, and experience of the hindrances both are really profuse in general lately.


Do you find worth in generating violent and disturbing imagery, or do you find worth in equanimity, unveiling "the last veil of unknowing" and dissipating the forms of attaching (cited MCTB)?

Are you contented holding to the hindrances?

What mandate is your practice not living up to at the moment?

[edited hyperlink]

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
9/3/11 4:26 PM as a reply to . ..
As a reply to the last two replies:

I'm sorry if I come across as ill-mannered, but if I don't say what I want to say in as blunt and concise of a way as possible, what I'm trying to express seems not to be understood very often or very well. Getting my questions across well and concisely is honestly more important, because if they don't get across, then what's the point in asking the question? I simply honestly wanted the simple answer to my simple question: "is he happy?", given what he had just previously stated. He probably hasn't gotten around to reading this thread yet because he's got things to do; if he has and my manners are honestly that big of a deal that he wouldn't even speak to me for posing a blunt question, then maybe Arahatship and elimination of the fetters isn't all that it's cracked up to be. If anyone honestly expects the manners of someone so immensely stuck in whatever these combination of factors amounts to as I am, to be without an edge or without any roughness, then I don't know what the hell they're thinking or else they've forgotten what it's like. It's honestly sometimes a miracle I can compose my thoughts.

Katy S: it's honestly difficult for me to answer your questions, because I don't really know the answers. I am not contented, that much is pointedly obvious. However, I am also not contented with the approach that Buddhism takes. I unfortunately haven't found a better one. Nearly every sit (there are some loving blessed exceptions) is a horridly tense war against basically every single defilement at once, and there's just been no concrete progress. I do a few techniques at different sittings (I've over the past few weeks been just doing half hour candle-flame kasina stuff for samatha progress every night), but somehow that dissatisfaction and discontentment slips into even my meditation technique and it slips in so fast I just can't suppress it. If I don't suppress my thoughts, I can forget about concentrating on anything, calming my mind into the session, and getting into it in earnest. If I do suppress it, that creates mental and physical tension and whatever concentration I do have becomes brittle. Between the stiffness of my back at that point and the stiffness of my mind, I'm back to square one, and all I can do is stare in wonderment at how there is seemingly no technique I can practice that doesn't end up being an ugly trench war. So in short, meditation tends to at best be neutral, but life without meditation also is at best tolerable. I'll very shortly have school and teaching responsibilities now, so the kind of energy this takes is just not there, but on the other hand I have no choice, just as I've never had a choice in all of this. Do you really think I wouldn't just do the techniques well and be done with it if my experience of it were that straightforward and easy? Does that explain how it's not meeting its mandate?

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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9/3/11 9:10 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Mike Kich
If I don't suppress my thoughts, I can forget about concentrating on anything,


You would do well to look at concentration in a different light and that is one of, having a letting go approach to jhana/concentration. maybe try not having a specific location of focus. what would it be like if you didn't fabricate a sense of self around the breath or your object.
trying to keep the little after image of a candle flame sometimes causes headaches for me. so maybe try something softer. or dont try to control the image but lightly keep it in bounds in the center. if it drifts off (the after image that is) let it. but, keep focus in the center and what has happened for me is another image will come up if not I open my eyes and start over. this is how it has went for me in the past.
I stare at the flame and let go of all concerns for past or future. let go of ideas about the specifics of the flame.
close my eyes.
see the image. even though the image may move to one side act as if it is staying in the center.
it fades out, then starts blinking/flashing. comes back as an off black after image. then squiggly lines in the image of extremely fast vibrations. blinking squiggly lines in the image.
when my mind is thus concentrated there is a more expansive brightness. the entire mind is brighter.
maybe think of your periphery getting bigger from original focus to as wide as your periphery would be with eyes open.

I have yet to get a stable light nimita at least one that is small. nimitta can also be translated as "theme". this is the way the term is used in the suttas. But later commentators took the word in to literal of a context and so translated it as "sign". as you can see "theme" has a much more open feel than "sign".
try to have the "theme" of renunciation/letting go well in hand. after all letting go/renunciation is a big part of not only transcendent states but also mundane concentration levels it is also part of right intention thats #2 on the 8-fold path. think of having the intention of letting go along with the theme of your meditation.
these guys below are better at articulating this stuff than I am.
Have you tried Kenneth Folk's Direct Mode of perception/grounding technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WiCXn87BF4
Also
http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-tool-box-letting-go-approach-to.html

Hope something here helps. may you be well. - Ross

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
9/3/11 9:25 PM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Mike Kich:
Nearly every sit (there are some loving blessed exceptions) is a horridly tense war against basically every single defilement at once, and there's just been no concrete progress. I do a few techniques at different sittings (I've over the past few weeks been just doing half hour candle-flame kasina stuff for samatha progress every night), but somehow that dissatisfaction and discontentment slips into even my meditation technique and it slips in so fast I just can't suppress it. If I don't suppress my thoughts, I can forget about concentrating on anything, calming my mind into the session, and getting into it in earnest. If I do suppress it, that creates mental and physical tension and whatever concentration I do have becomes brittle. Between the stiffness of my back at that point and the stiffness of my mind, I'm back to square one, and all I can do is stare in wonderment at how there is seemingly no technique I can practice that doesn't end up being an ugly trench war. So in short, meditation tends to at best be neutral, but life without meditation also is at best tolerable. I'll very shortly have school and teaching responsibilities now, so the kind of energy this takes is just not there, but on the other hand I have no choice, just as I've never had a choice in all of this. Do you really think I wouldn't just do the techniques well and be done with it if my experience of it were that straightforward and easy? Does that explain how it's not meeting its mandate?


Mike, I'll just jump in here to say: I feel for where you're at. Probably most other practitioners, if we're honest, have been in similar territory. All I can offer from my own experience with similar conditions is that what I found was that such experiences are pointing to a very important opportunity to see how the techniques are not really the point.

Attitude is the key IMO.

Now, I don't really know every detail of your experience-- just have your descriptions to go by, and what they evoke for me in terms of my own practice. With that caveat, I would suggest that you forget for now about the longer-term questions and re-focus on how to meet what's coming up in your practice NOW in a skillful way.

Two things pop out in this regard that I might look at more closely: what is this "trench war"? What are the "sides" of this struggle? For example from my own experience at a similar point in practice, I found that there was a struggle between what I expected practice to look like and what was actually happening. Dropping those expectations and just meeting myself where I was at was all it really took to break the log jam. "Ok, now this just sucks and is all about the sucking." I think if I'm not mistaken this is what Katy was referring to with the "mandate" question.

Consider it this way: suffering in everyday life has a lot to do with holding an image up to current experience and comparing the two, judging that we like or dislike or don't care about what's actually happening based on how it matches our hopes and fears. Suffering that arises in sitting practice is just the same, but because of the intensity of the situation (once your sitting practice begins to take hold, which it seems like yours has) it can be a lot worse! A big key to reducing suffering is to learn to let go of those expectations a bit, loosen our hold on them, and cultivate instead a more open-minded sensitivity to what is actually happening here-and-now--- crucially, including those expectations in the field of what is happening now. Otherwise, you'll just set up another point to struggle around if you try to suppress certain thoughts and judgments.
-Jake

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
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9/4/11 12:21 AM as a reply to Ross A. K..
This is good advice Ross, thank you.

Candle-flame concentration does seem to be fast for at least getting concentration better than it was before, that much I've seen myself. I've experienced the same thing with the image slowly drifting off to the right or upwards, and then another violet afterimage of the candle and an orange-ish after-image of the flame itself re-materializing. With sufficient effort, it is possible to slow and stop the after-image from moving, at least for a little while. For the time that I'm doing it and for a while afterwards, it is nice how the mind is more or less still and factors like one-pointedness and mindfulness are better than they are otherwise.

I'm half-way through Bhante Gunaratana's "The Path of Serenity and Insight" (I like his direct way of writing, very down to earth) and some more explanation is given regarding what the nimitta is as a part of access concentration and a prerequisite for 1st samatha jhana. The stable light nimitta appears after concentration upon the after-image of whatever your object is has sufficiently stabilized. That having been said, I've also once listened to a podcast on Buddhist Geeks where a teacher (I can't remember his name off the top of my head) talks about how the light nimitta doesn't happen for everyone, Visudhimagga style - some people have that particular neurological phenomenon, others don't. I personally am just doing the candle-flame business in order to cultivate one-pointedness, mindfulness, and hopefully equanimity, so that I can apply that towards insight practice, and to be chiller in general. I have actually made use of Kenneth's Direct mode of perception technique, just kind of by accident - it works for both body and mental phenomena; mental phenomena can be more difficult (the technique works well for anxiety) if you don't keep the attention right on the anxiety without twitching/flagging in strength of one-pointed attention. It's like he mentions at the end of the 1st part about it being like a dead-man's switch. It works well though.

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
9/4/11 12:57 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
This is also a very helpful reply. Thank you mr. Jacob. emoticon

In a way for me the techniques have become the point even though they shouldn't be, because historically speaking I've always had trouble not vacillating - before I'd ever meditated and after. To me it's partly a contest with myself about proving my willpower; I've always deeply admired individuals who naturally are able to take an object and sit with it infinitely, until they're skilled and satisfied. Such people are not bothered by excess thoughts, doubt, ill-will or pride very much, and they don't have to agonize over 'why' questions, they're just content with 'how' and they make steady progress without wanting to read a single book or ask more than a few questions. They're just slower-thinking, not very intellectual people, but that turns out to mean it's easier for them to be happy and contented, and they accomplish whatever they set their attention on. The "struggle" I mentioned is my trying over and over and over again in my meditation to be that person. My mind loves language and words and the mental taste of them, loves melodies and lyrics from song; I can hear a song that I like once and be playing the refrain from it over and over and over in my head for an hour at a stretch. For this reason it delights in the senses and is deeply curious about all sorts of things to be found out and studied. I feel sadness and profound doubt on one hand because I'm trying to control and curtail who I have always been for the sake of a powerful ideal; I don't believe it's at all a bad thing, being who I am, and I actually relish it on one hand and want to allow my mind to be whatever form it inclines toward. On the other hand, if I let it run wild and don't curtail it, it's the same as a spoiled child - I can't do anything with it and I can't find real, lasting peace for it. So do you see the difficulty? It's like punishing your child and restraining its creativity for the sake of the ideas surrounding Buddhism. You feel doubt because right now they're just ideas and nothing experiential for the most part, at least as far as actual sanctuary is concerned; you think you could be hurting your mind for nothing more than what amounts to neuroses, and for what? So that I could sit like a stone-buddha and be the embodiment of an ideal? But then you think: "how powerful would it be though, if I had the strength of will to push on no matter what, to embody an ideal so deeply that I become it. How worthy is that in comparison to what I would have to renounce?"

I had a karate sensei a year and a half ago or so who told me when I asked him, that he struggled for 9 years to win over the monkey-mind; in order to do it, he had to give up music, except for some classical or jazz arrangements. I shook my head and told him that I thought I just couldn't do it, do that. He told me that I have to decide what I want more - freedom, or music and everything it represents? I still battle over that question. I refuse to give up who I am and I'm just not willing to become the renunciate that Bhante Gunaratana and the Majjhima Nikaya suttas reference, but I also want to experience something really outside of my mental boundaries. So, to apply what you're saying about embracing what's real and current, I should maybe try more to reverse it and drop my ideals of self-perfection?

RE: Can the Dark Night/related stuff kill you?
Answer
9/4/11 9:33 AM as a reply to Mike Kich.
Mike Kich:
This is also a very helpful reply. Thank you mr. Jacob. emoticon

So, to apply what you're saying about embracing what's real and current, I should maybe try more to reverse it and drop my ideals of self-perfection?


Hi Mike-- You're welcome, and yup, that's what I'm pointing towards. You don't need to change who you are or how your mind, energy and body function naturally in order to investigate how they function naturally. See what i mean? Try approaching sitting (and life) as an investigation into how it all is already functioning. So if you're holding an ideal and comparing experience to that, how does that function right now? If the ideal drops and you become comfortable with current experience (for even a few seconds) how does that function?

When we look at practice and say there are these hindrances here the idea isn't to "get rid of" the hindrances, like you just need to find the right magic wand to wave and they're gone. The only way is to investigate how they function, how they arise and pass, how they work. It's a simple job. The techniques help you make best use of your time.

I'm also a wordy intellectual music type with lots of mental activity going on and it was a big challenge for me to get a practice going because of similar struggles and false expectations. I remember reading somewhere that for mindfulness training the Buddha recommended breathing as object for intellectual types and I do find I keep coming back to it.

A technique could be to just place some portion of your attention on your natural breathing without controlling your breath. Don't try to ignore or suppress other thoughts feelings and sensations, just try to place a portion of attention on the breath. Be relaxed about it. When you notice you've lost the breath completely you just gently bring the attention back. It's like when my toddler doesn't want to take a nap (or thinks he doesn't!) and comes back downstairs. If I make a fuss we'll both get riled up and he'll associate nap time with a form of punishment. But if I just scoop him up, give him a kiss and quietly take him back upstairs and tuck him in, it's all quite simple. Doesn't mean that some days I don't have to repeat that process several times before he goes down :-) Try like that.