Hey Chuck!
Chuck Kasmire:
So basically the entire process may be viewed in terms of mindfulness and the resultant release of trauma.
Great work in laying out a trauma-based process model, as a return to the simplest thing. I think there is much accuracy in what you have presented.
Chuck Kasmire:
Yes, but without the release of trauma – the repression of which throws us into dualistic thinking – it cannot be stabilized for any length of time – and because of our existing trauma (awareness bound up) the experience of that state will be minimal with respect to the qualities mentioned earlier. This is why mindfulness must be applied.
Indeed, however, as we have previously established, the persistent and frequent realization of Rigpa which brings automatic and effortless, uncontrived mindfulness will necessarily result in progressive traumatic release, or so I propose, if we accept what has been shown so far. So, Rigpa, or naked, non-conceptual awareness, that which apprehends whatever presents in awareness, including thought, will be as it is, as it always is, noticed or not, and it is the system as 'person' or the display that is simply and naturally noticed by awareness, that will be at play, as it progressively releases trauma. And since the individual is in Rigpa, they are untouched by this traumatic release - untouched by any dark-night of the soul - and thus, are perfectly placed to witness this traumatic release and return of the personal system to homeostasis and ease, as pristine flow of the Tao, and full integration with the natural state of things. So it is win-win! That is why, in Dzogchen, it is all about direct introduction to the state of mind, and one may work on stabilizing that, which is all one needs. All else will naturally, and without effort, follow. Additional practices may be applied to assist in the process, but are not needed per se.
Chuck Kasmire:
I don't obviously see these as different (4th path and rigpa). 4th path may be viewed as a stage of rigpa (as a practice) if you want to look at stages. 4th path marks the point where the qualities of rigpa are accessible in their un-mediated form (un-mediated by duality).
This is not clear to me, and its details are what we are exploring. So, I am very interested to delve into it. There are some on this list who appear not to recognize what is referred to by traditional pointing out and descriptions of Rigpa. However, to confound this evidence further, it is not clear to me that they have attained 4th path either.
There are examples of those who have attained a completion of the energetic circuit instantly, and as such, all seeking has been resolved. They may have been 3rd path at that time. Other examples were of those who were not seeking or practicing at all, and achieved instant completion. They may have attained 3rd path in a previous life. But generally, it appears clear path-movement takes much time and is an extended process. Rigpa, on the other hand, can be realized instantly, either accidentally, or via pointing out from a master. Furthermore, after Ken realized 4th path, he then realized Rigpa, as something additional and separate, or indeed, something simpler and more fundamental. Was it a real phenomological and existential shift or difference in realization or merely a shift in language and conceptual focus? It appears to be a genuinely distinct and different realization - not the same, as he presents it. So, he as a case study, and the above examples, appears to show that 4th path does not result in the recognition of Rigpa.
Chuck Kasmire:
Something to consider is that Kenneth came to this practice after years of intense meditation. Perhaps the same is true for you. You have to consider that your meditation may have had a profound influence on what you experience in this practice.
This is a good point. I have been practicing intensively several times a day since I was 14 years old, I am presently 31. It may be that I completed 4th path years ago, of which there are many candidate events that might represent that, and I since have access to Rigpa as a result. Since completing 4th path, I may have spontaneous realized Rigpa many times over the years, and yet did not recognize it for what it was. The later is common and likely. This may be so, however, at this time, I do not believe this - the attainment of 4th path, that is. I am not inclined to accept this hypothesis, however, I do not reject it either; I remain agnostic, and await further evidence.
From the little I know of Mahamudra, we all experience clear-light (Rigpa) daily, particularly as we move through the wake to sleep cycle, simply because it is the natural state of mind right now - no development required. And yet, most of us are not on any of the paths, particularly the higher paths; so here again, the two different traditional descriptions are inconsistent with proposed necessary conditions for realization. This does not, however, tell us if the fruit is different, just the paths and processes.
Chuck Kasmire:
If a beginner feels a great sense of expansiveness or happiness is that the same as your experience or is it relative to their own prior experience of suffering in samsara. How can you tell without projecting? All I can say is that when I started out on this path 15 years ago when I noticed gaps between my thoughts – it was nothing like what I experience now in my everyday life.
Right. So are you suggesting that Rigpa cannot be accessed prior to 4th path? Or perhaps, the conditions are such that it is less conducive and unlikely?
Chuck Kasmire:
And keep in mind that this experience requires you to go right through the heart of what ever trauma is being released in this moment, and this moment, and this one. Sometimes it's blissful and sometimes it isn't – but no matter what the experience is there is a sense of release and healing and growth that accompanies it. This is what I feel Daniel is addressing in his point #6 in the first post on the other thread. You cannot appreciate what he is saying there until after 4th path (my model explains why :-)
-Chuck
However, the Dzogchen tradition, is as I understand it, is unequivocal when it says that the realization of the nature of mind is not dependent in any way or manner whatsoever on conditions, display, presence or absence trauma, or development or lack thereof. It is literally, our natural state or condition of mind right now - our very essence, and that which is fundamental, unchanging, untouched, self-existent, and the simplest thing. As such, no development through the four paths or the release of trauma is a necessary condition for its recognition. Such conditions may make it easier to stabilize its recognition though, just not needed to realize it. And yet, it is clear and in fact a tautology, that one needs to complete the four paths of development, in order to compete and realize fourth path; that is, there is in fact a necessary condition or process that must be present in order to realize 4th path. Thus, fundamentally, as a matter of deduction, it follows they are two different processes - one a process, and the other a non-process. Are they different fruits, though? Alex has said no, as has Dan; ken says yes. I'm, at this point, inclined to the later also for previously stated reasons, in this post and in the other thread.
Perhaps the more relevant point is, not how we got there, rather, the fruit or realization? Does 4th path result in the same realization? Evidence suggests to me, as per those on this list, and Kenneth's testimony of their difference in realization - such that, after 4th path he did not recognize Rigpa, and later he did - then, it looks pretty clear on these grounds that they are indeed different.
I would personally like to believe that they are the same fruit, different processes, but that is, as yet, unclear to me. I hope we can explore the evidence and conceptual analysis further and come to a clear conclusion. :-P
I hope Ken will way in also. His often pithi observations may aid in bringing some clarity.
In kind regards,
Adam. edited for typos