Oliver Myth:
I'm arguing that a person can only be aware of the object of meditation, which is always present when one is aware of it. So how does one not have present moment awareness when aware of an object of meditation?
Well, by 'present moment awareness' I meant a panoramic EE-like sensuous perspective, not something like (for example) an incredibly strobing attention wavy body-shimmering thing that happens in the dukkha nyanas.
Oliver Myth:
How does one 'fabricate' a present moment awareness?
You can fabricate something and pay attention to that, thinking it is present moment awareness (like a 'watcher'), but it actually isn't (cause present moment awareness would be more akin to sensuousness). So you can't, no.
Oliver Myth:
Why would one look for that present moment awareness in the past?
That's a good question. It's just something I noticed myself doing. Namely, I would try to be as present as possible, while walking around.. but I'd notice gaps in the present-ness. And I was wondering what the gaps were - where did 'I' go in those gaps? And that caused me to try to look 'back' to try to 'remember' what was going on in those gaps. But that just caused more gaps.
Oliver Myth:
Do you have a present moment awareness right now?
It comes and goes.
Oliver Myth:
I think linguistics might be playing games with our communication.
It might very well be, but hopefully we can work it out to a mutually beneficial result...
Oliver Myth:
One just has to look at an object of meditation or whatever is in front of them and they are present again.
Well, as I was using the term, that wouldn't be the case. I can get really really absorbed in the sensations of my foot and follow their intricate workings and causality and such, but then after a while I'll 'snap out of it' and wonder what I was just doing.
Oliver Myth:
Do you agree with what I just said?
If I understand how you're using the term awareness correctly, then yes, I would agree.
Oliver Myth:
If so, then I would take it one step further. Once one has a clear awareness of the object of meditation, then one can go to a noting practice (using HAIETMOBA) where one notes how one is feeling over and over again. That was what I was illustrating in my little diagram above. One is still present, if only for the fact that they have to actively be engaged with each new moment that comes up.
Do you agree with this?
Yes (again as you're using the term awareness).
Oliver Myth:
Next take it one step further. In any moment when one is noting, they have the possibility of noting the sensations that happened one second ago.
right?
Ah, yes, true. Though I would not say with certainty that you're noting the sensation that happened one second ago, but rather, the sensation-developed-one-second-later-due-to-causality, from which you can try to infer what happened one second ago.
Oliver Myth:
One step further: when noting like this, we can note something we weren't aware of the previous moment, even tho it happened, which is the person/intention/point of view/drive which was noting the previous moment. Then one has to note again and not get hung up thinking about what they just noticed (since this is a noting practice). Its all very subtle, and I believe this was the point of noting practice from the start- to be aware of ourself and things we didn't notice before.
Hmm, I'm not sure you are noting the person/intention/point of view/drive which was noting the previous moment, not that very one, just something very similar to it perhaps. And, there is the possibility that, when trying to note the 'person/intention/point of view/drive which was noting the previous moment', you're actually fabricating a 'person/intention/point of view/drive which was noting the previous moment', which you are then noting. That is to say,
the act of looking back like that fabricates something that you then note. And what I am attempting to say is that, perhaps one need not look back like that. Instead of a 'backwards-facing' awareness (so to speak), maybe you can cultivate a 'forwards-facing' awareness (so to speak). The former seems more like vipassana practice as outlined in MCTB; the latter more like attentiveness to sensuousness/naivete as outlined in the various Actualist writings. The former seems to be more likely to lead to MCTB paths; the latter, more likely to lead to PCEs and freedom-from-malice-and-sorrow.
I think Nick alludes to this 'looking-back' tendency in this post of his on December 24th:
Nick:
The relationship with my wife is great. It is much for the better. Why? It seems that the big difference between last shift in July (what I thought was AF) and this last shift 2 weeks or so ago is that the mind has stopped 'looking' for the experience of 'being'. This tendency was there up till recently and caused quite a bit fof cognitive confusion and an experience of 'almost affect' (but not quite affect. This has been called 'shadow being'.
Now, there is a serious drop in this occurence. I can't remember if it has occured in the past 2 weeks. It is like something has dropped away that makes the ongoing experience much more like I'e dscribed, scenery.
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Oliver Myth:
When one becomes aware of the 'doer' and the 'object' at the same time then one has 4th path consciousness.
I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. Nick said, on Dec 2nd 2011 (I think after his first big shift post-4th):
Nick:
Me: you mean the pressure felt in the middle of the brain? my current theory is that it is one end of the attention bounce
Friend:i can see that
Me: with any sense contact, it will bounce from a sense door (any of them including a thought at the mind door) back to that spot, so you have a various options. one is to watch the whole bounce
dispassionately as a whole more panoramically. another is to watch one end of the bounce either the brain spot (which seems somehow related to craving, and clinging, perhaps being the whole process occuring right there) or the other end; the sense object at the point of contact. I find that observing the brain spot ceases the result of craving much quicker than observing the sense object being reacted to
[...]
Me: you can do it with every object that hits a sense door, even form. so when you see a sexy girl, notice how there is the attention bounce that bounces from form to there (brain spot) then perhaps to a vibration arising in the chest perhaps giving rise to passion, back and forth automatically, craving in action. but look directly at this bounce either end, and you are able to cease it. it occurs with any sense object at any sense door, even thoughts. notice how a thought arises. it sets off suffering/tension. notice how continuous thoughts arise and set off more suffering. notice how the attention bounce is happening from the thought itself (which is harmless) to the spot in the brain then perhaps to a shitty vedana arising as a result at the chest for example, then the bounce is all over the shop. bounce bounce bounce
i may be off, but this is my current experience
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Thus he still experienced that 'bounce', even post-4th... I am not sure if all people claiming MCTB 4th are claiming the same thing, or think about these things the same, so you might have to ask people separately. But, my current take is, as long as there is 'being', there is some kind of bounce, so the only time you could experience 'doer' and 'object' at the same time is when there is no 'doer' at all... in other words, never.
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EDIT: You asked:
Oliver Myth:
Why would one look for that present moment awareness in the past?
Later in your post you said:
Oliver Myth:
One step further: when noting like this, we can note something we weren't aware of the previous moment, even tho it happened, which is the person/intention/point of view/drive which was noting the previous moment.
That's exactly what I was referring to when I talked about looking for present moment awareness in the past. So you can ask yourself why you are doing that and answer your own question =P.
Note that I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea to do so... it might be quite instructive as to how things are fabricated/arise and how they pass away. But it might be good to understand you aren't actually perceiving sensations that happened in the past, but rather more likely doing something like using mindfulness to remember a previous fabrication ('person[...] which was noting the previous moment') by fabricating (a reconstructed version of) it in the present moment. You can only perceive sensations
now.