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Is this the DN?
Answer
12/14/11 5:05 PM
Hey,

For a while I've been under the assumption that when a pre-stream entry yogi begins to meditate, he or she begins by achieving access concentration and nyana by nyana reaches his or her highest previously reached nyana and then attempts to chip away and break new ground.

I've also been under the impression that during the DN phase all descriptions of it being difficult to concentrate and requiring donut-like attention, et al, only applies to the third jhana. This means that if a person's cutting edge is, say, Fear, his or her meditation is only poor during the third jhana, is this correct? If not the following will might my plight much more clear and correcting me will help tremendously!

I ask because I have probably been mistaken about where I'm at on the path, but one pattern is for certain:

I chip away up through the 3C's until I get into A&P territory, then each sit nearly I cycle into A&P pretty easily, I get very confident and spiritual driven, by the book, eventually I'll have some epic bliss out accompanied by a dramatic shift and this brief sense of kundalini bursting out of me like a smokestack, afterwards in subsequent days that A&P becomes a memory and I no longer can meditate well, I usually feel like I'm wasting my time, and often begin dreaming while attempting to meditate. This is now a cycle. Build to 3C's slowly through crap meditation with zero concentration, then A&P goes by fast when concentration is back, suddenly I think I hit Dissolution, then the concentration slips away again from whence it came.

I am very confused by this because I would love to assume that this is DN territory, but wouldn't I have to cycle through the 1st and 2nd jhanas to get there, and yet I rarely hit the 1st during these phases.

To make matters worse, this is only describing my current last couple months, previously I really believed I was experiencing Dissolution and beyond because I'd feel my body disolve, the white lights go out and a drop after the A&P climax, and then after passing through all that (without any negativity, but without positivity as well) I'd pop out feeling equanimous, like my body was diffused into the background and I ironically thought it felt like syrup, which Daniel described as A&P, sometimes I'd get so far reality would become a single pulse which gradually slowed down. I could do that every day, cycling like that to that point, in fact, many times a day, sitting for 1.5 hours at a time sometimes, the background was 99% gone and slowly my sense of self would merge with that pulse, which I then assumed were formations. Eventually I popped out the other side after a black blip. Then I strongly suspected it was SE. Now I wonder if that was just the APE? And perhaps my opening questions were mistaken, that there is no necessary relationship between jhanas and stages of insight, rather that jhanas are only a means of insight, and thus I'm a DN yogi who can no longer hit the first jhana? Or maybe I've just lost all my concentration?

Thanks

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/14/11 5:22 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
Here's a classic diagnosis: Bright lights, strong concentration, etc, all A&P.

The misery that comes after that, which sucks, is dark night, as you correctly hinted.

It is normal to cycle back and forth between both without any apparent alternative.

The way forward is to go "through" the dark night into Equanimity. The way to do this (the way I've done this) is to meditate with the dark night symptoms until you are able to be equanimous towards them; one day they won't seem so bad, and then soon after that they are gone, replaced by a new kind of mental ability. It is not the fancy super-energetic bliss of the A&P, it is way less fancy and yet much better, for it is devoid of the euphoric rush, the insatiable drive, which characterises A&P. "All is well."

Joshua L.:
Hey,

I chip away up through the 3C's until I get into A&P territory, then each sit nearly I cycle into A&P pretty easily, I get very confident and spiritual driven, by the book, eventually I'll have some epic bliss out accompanied by a dramatic shift and this brief sense of kundalini bursting out of me like a smokestack,

A&P followed by "unknowing event".


afterwards in subsequent days that A&P becomes a memory and I no longer can meditate well, I usually feel like I'm wasting my time, and often begin dreaming while attempting to meditate.

Dark night.


I am very confused by this because I would love to assume that this is DN territory, but wouldn't I have to cycle through the 1st and 2nd jhanas to get there, and yet I rarely hit the 1st during these phases.


You'll have to ask someone else about that. I haven't enough practice with jhanas.


To make matters worse, this is only describing my current last couple months, previously I really believed I was experiencing Dissolution and beyond because I'd feel my body disolve, the white lights go out and a drop after the A&P climax, and then after passing through all that (without any negativity, but without positivity as well) I'd pop out feeling equanimous,


This is dissolution, it is the nana corresponding to third jhana. After this comes the suffering stages, and after those comes real equanimity.

The sudden loss of concentration is a hallmark of the beginning of the dark night. Well done! emoticon

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/15/11 4:30 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Great response!

It's worth considering that the kundalini smokestack feeling and the pulsating reality are two very distinct states, and for what's its worth, what I used to believe was equanimity was very distinct from what I believed was A&P, it really elucidated the simile of a still lake with only the occasional ripple. It may also be worth considering that the smoke stack feeling, if I remember well, had a kundalini feeling both physically and with the lights, it would exert a sort of pressure upon with, clenching my head and jaw to the upper right like during the 3C's, conversely during the pulsating reality I thought I remembered a cataract-like opaque white background at first, very subtle with little left to note but awareness itself until I finally just counted my breath. The pulse would become apparent and I'd stay with it or bare awareness, at this point it is difficult to recall on account of both memory and the vagueness of the actual experience's subtlety. After a few days of that, however, it seemed that I merged with it completely for a moment and the blip, of course, to say completely is difficult because it was subtle business. That night, and only that night ever, whatever that experience was, I couldn't sleep, because I kept experiencing it in my dreams.

I want to be confident that it happened a few weeks before that, but more subtly, and that I'd begin a new cycle time lasting a week resulting in better clarity until finally on the third or fourth cycle I had that experience. My meditation was never the same, it crumbled, and I had to work through the first nyana. I really wondered if I had SE, I posted about it, Daniel was hesitant, over time I agreed, but now I'm beginning to wonder again.

I really hope somebody can clear all this business up!

@ Bruno, don't you have at least SE? May I ask how you achieved that without the jhana experience, or are you just being humble? Is it because you don't note, is it some Goenka thing?

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/16/11 1:09 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
I would just rehash "The sudden loss of concentration is a hallmark of the beginning of the dark night," it is, for me, an excellent indicator that Dark Night is soon to follow, or is already established.

As for stream entry, I got it by powering through the nanas with momentary concentration. I had been stuck in the dark night for a year, and was in a quite desperate make-it-or-break it situation. I suppose you could say I have jhana (jhanas will occasionally spontaneously arise during meditation), but I don't have the kind of control that some people in this site have ("I want 4th jhana ... there it is"), nor have I been successful at the kind of practice which is recommended to achieve such control, hence I am not at all familiar with the details of transitions between jhanas, nor the relationship between jhana and nana (which pertains to one of your original questions). I am certainly not trying to be humble, as SE is no reason to be proud, it was just a big relief from a horrid state-of-affairs.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/16/11 3:13 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
It's hard to be certain, but if you had got SE your concentration would probably have dramatically improved, not got worse.

You are probably close to or have already gone through the A&P event. Do the vibrations in your body feel different, or do you you feel a bit wierd?

When I was pushing through the A&P I didn't notice the first much nanas either. The further your cutting edge, the quicker you tend to burn through the early stages. Also, I didn't really know what to look for, and the early stages seemed subtle compared to the sledgehammer of the A&P!

Personally, I found that my concentration got quite a bit better after the A&P. You don't really want to be stuck in DN for a year if you can help it, and improved concentration/ tranquillity will probably help you through it.


Maybe try specifically developing Samatha on it's own, or in tandem with Vipassana when your concentration generally feels good. Just enjoy the breath, relax and concentrate, go back to the DN when you feel more confident.


Good luck.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/16/11 10:33 PM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
Ive got a subtle anxious feeling 24/7 which arbitrarily consumes me. I feel depersonalized and sick without the coughing and whatnot. This is accompanied with a dharma neurosis, at times I feel compelled to note like I breathe. This also happened a month ago and it progressed into so.ething for more discordant then, it would appear that Ive fallen back and just crossed te A&P again. Last time my folly was the same inability to access jhanas like Im again experiencing. sigh.

On a good note I think I just hit the second jhana via Goenka.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/17/11 5:14 AM as a reply to Joshua L..
Sick and wobbly, that's DN alright!

Try working on jhana for a while , but don't get uptight about it, you have to relax.

When you enter DN, just let the sensations rise and fall on their own, good and bad, try not manipulate what is happening. Concentrate on the sensations themselves and try not to let your mind wander too much. Even in the midst of the nastiness you can sometimes find oases of calming sensations. Let good and bad arise and fall equally and ride it out.

All the best.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/17/11 6:35 AM as a reply to Joshua L..
Joshua L.:
Ive got a subtle anxious feeling 24/7 which arbitrarily consumes me. I feel depersonalized and sick without the coughing and whatnot. This is accompanied with a dharma neurosis, at times I feel compelled to note like I breathe. This also happened a month ago and it progressed into so.ething for more discordant then, it would appear that Ive fallen back and just crossed te A&P again. Last time my folly was the same inability to access jhanas like Im again experiencing. sigh.

On a good note I think I just hit the second jhana via Goenka.


This is dark night. You have effectively crossed the point of no return. Stream-entry will make it all better.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/17/11 7:26 AM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
I do feel better a lot, it seems lie every other day and mornings are better. I can usualy feel if the day will be very DNish early on.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/17/11 12:44 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
At work that DN feeling descended upon me, I proceeded to focus on it, it was made exeedingly clear that I'd cycled into Fear.

I really hope Goenka works for me.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/17/11 1:42 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
If body scanning doesn't work, you might want to try choiceless mindfulness of whatever sensations come up. Try to stay calm inside the storm, watch what happens and ride it out.

Try not to be intimidated by the onset of DN, it might not be half as bad for you as a lot of the accounts you've probably read.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/17/11 4:33 PM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
I try to make my motto: "Who is it who feels this way?"

Fortunately those DN episodes only happen sparsely, very sparsely. Ive notice Fear is preceded by a great self awareness that Im only sense organs followed by my entire body tingling and finally a subtle disolving feeling. But I dont want to risk projecting things Ive read in place of reality so take that for a grain of salt.Perhaps though this sounds familiar?

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/18/11 2:02 AM as a reply to Joshua L..
One thing you may find moving to the Goenka technique Joshua is that your experience of the DN becomes much more of a physical thing. Im not certain if this is the same for everyone doing body scanning, but certainly in my own case I had only minimal emotional upheaval during the day - some anger, stress etc --mostly its all been unpleasant sensations.

I may well have not had my last DN yet as Im pre-path and in EQ right now --count that as a disclaimer of sorts emoticon

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/18/11 5:37 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
The DN was almost entirely physical for me too.

One thing you may find in the 3rd jhana/ vippasana jhana is that you can no longer direct the attention to a specific spot like you could in the A&P.

At this point I started simultaneous whole body mindfulness rather than body scanning, building the concentration first. I found that all the nasty sensations were from the neck and shoulders up, while in the legs an undercurrent of pleasantness could still be detected.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/18/11 6:09 AM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
Dodge:

At this point I started simultaneous whole body mindfulness rather than body scanning,


Yes! I'd forgotten that. I found the DN easier to traverse (at home anyway) by just doing anapana and alternating anapana with full body awareness --I imagine it depends on your background but I figure I'd done so much scanning already that the awareness of teh body was really habitual so less need to actually scan at all. As Dodge points out, the focus is really at the edges, so allowing it to widen out to the whole body seems very natural and intuitively right.

I also could not do any jhana type states up until very recently in EQ, whenver I did anapana I just went straight up to whatever my cutting edge was at the time (in terms of the stages of insight) for the most part.

This may not be the the same for Joshua as he has a noting background but it's worth bearing in mind as you work on this.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/18/11 3:04 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
its interesting that you say that as I swore it seemed yesterday that the third jhana just popped up, but I dismissed it for impossibility.

Thanks for the advice everybody, it is very appreciated!

I will be alone tonight and I don't work tomorrow. Hopefully all this candle light kasina practice ad Goenka will pay off, if so Ill know to switch to full body awareness.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/19/11 12:31 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
Ugh, after much neurotic practice, I can concentrate significantly better.

You know what my new plight is? No matter how quiet my mind seemingly is, no jhanic states seem to arise, not when I note nor when I body scan.

It feels like that DN feeling is long gone, physically and mentally, but I never passed the third jhana. It seems like when I meditate I hit some state now that seems jhana-ish, in that it's still and opaque white, but thoughts can still arise and I know by comparing my past experiences that it gets 10 times deeper than that. It's like I'm in the first nyana but with a spaciousness and white like A&P.

I know the DN is supposed to make a person doubtful, but I seriously doubt everything now. It's debilitating because I've sacrificed almost every part of my life at this point, all my hobbies and pursuits, all my spare time and even a healthy relationship with my fiancee to get past this DN phase and it seems like the harder I try the less I get. I've grown largely ambivalent towards it though, in terms of the DN neurosis, but it still irritates me to no end that what I spend hours doing each day is apparently worthless. I dream about it, if I wake in the middle of the night I'm thinking about it, I note fast, I note slow, I patiently wait for sensations at the crown while trying not to have expectations created by my first and solely successful body scan, all of which end in failure.

The only thing noteworthy is that yesterday, after 3 or 4 hours of failed meditation, my last one seemed to climb close to or in early A&P (although I have two notions of A&P, one is what I used to regard as Equanimity which was far deeper for me, so this is confusing for me) and when I was abruptly forced to stop I felt like what I've imagined a PCE to be. Completely void of all feeling, my sense organs simply delighting in sensation, this lasted for around an hour.

..

I'm being impulsive, and I apologize. I appreciate all the help very much and I suppose I'm trying to accomplish displaying my desperation. If any of you understand music theory, I feel like a goddamn minor 9th begging for resolution. I feel like there's a stream before me, but try as I might, I just cannot hop into it.

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/19/11 1:11 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
Joshua L.:
I appreciate all the help very much and I suppose I'm trying to accomplish displaying my desperation. If any of you understand music theory, I feel like a goddamn minor 9th begging for resolution.

I'm in a similar situation as yours, doubting everything while practice continues to suck, and I can't give any advice from experience and can only regurgitate stuff from books, but come on, MCTB talks in exactly the same terms!

"Just like listening to discordant, chromatic jazz with lots of jarring harmonies and instruments playing more at odds with each other than together takes some getting used to, the quality of attention in the Dark Night is an acquired taste [...]"

This is twenty-first century, we should be able to appreciate minor 9ths for what they are without a need to resolve them. Easier said then done of course... But per MCTB that's the direction you should take, more accepting DN than "getting past" it.

- a fellow musician emoticon

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/19/11 1:22 PM as a reply to Joshua L..
Joshua L.:

I know the DN is supposed to make a person doubtful, but I seriously doubt everything now. It's debilitating because I've sacrificed almost every part of my life at this point, all my hobbies and pursuits, all my spare time and even a healthy relationship with my fiancee to get past this DN phase and it seems like the harder I try the less I get. I've grown largely ambivalent towards it though, in terms of the DN neurosis, but it still irritates me to no end that what I spend hours doing each day is apparently worthless. I dream about it, if I wake in the middle of the night I'm thinking about it, I note fast, I note slow, I patiently wait for sensations at the crown while trying not to have expectations created by my first and solely successful body scan, all of which end in failure.


Sacrificing the other parts of your life and relationships is a bad idea.

You are making progress, but can't connect the dots yet. Doubt your own doubt. Stop thinking of it as this big scary Dark Night or what it is making you do. That is mostly a distraction.

What are the sensations that make up the feelings of doubt ? or anxiety ? or irritation ? Are these sensations inherently bad ?

RE: Is this the DN?
Answer
12/19/11 1:29 PM as a reply to N A.
Hehe.

I guess my perspective of the DN was always that I'd have glorious meditation, hit the third jhana and then it would go to hell due to an inability to re-adapt my technique. I also thought that off-cushion symptoms would remain frequent as an indicator that, when in doubt, you're obviously a DN yogi.

More often than not I feel like I never meditated at all a day in my life now, except this impossible discord, an impending requirement for resolution until my life can resume. In fact, before meditation I was more disciplined in behavior and thought, it got incredible during A&P and now it's more than gone. I feel more like my late teenage self than the 24 year old dude I was. The husk of discipline, tolerance, patience, etc, has been stripped from my mind. Maybe that's proof enough I'm in DN. I never imagined that I'd get a taste of the physical sick-like symptoms and absolute discord, just for them to disappear leaving me more neurotic than ever, wanting to be miserable so that I can be confident that I'm at least a DN yogi, because that's an excuse for poor meditation. Except for this neurotic impulse for resolution, I feel empty inside now. Not depressed or happy, just ambivalent. I feel like I did when I was this dude who discovered vipassana and is now endeavoring to build access concentration, but I obsess over how I'm supposed to be breaking into the fourth jhana.

The task is impossible. I'm convinced I'm doing absolutely nothing right, except for that conviction which has thankfully been diagnosed as a DN symptom in advance to leave room for hope. The DN is truly terrible, not in the misery, but in the mind tricks and deceit. I feel like I'm being toyed with as part of an elaborate divine joke.