Bhante V claims that each time a person obtains a path, they enter the cessation of perception and feeling, and then get to watch the operation of dependent origination. As Bhante V spent time practicing in the noting tradition and climbing through the progress of insight, before deciding that it wasn't leading him to whatever he wanted, whatever he means by cessation of perception and feeling, it isn't cessation / fruition.
Hi End in Sight,
First, a matter of accuracy and citation:Could you provide the citation for this? If you will continue to use Bhante V's name and to attribute to him claims, then I think it would be beneficial to link to and use his own words. The reasons for doing this are:
- accurate, clean conduction of another person's chosen words (i.e., no residue, no modifying interpretation)
- transparency of the original words to permit everyone's personal understanding of the original words and context
- personal transparency/discovery (reasons for recruiting another person or views are many)
- preventing erroneous iterations/supporting accurate interations
Will this work for you?
(If it turns out for whatever reason that you don't want to build a case for your interpretation on Bhant's V's words, then perhaps you would remove his name and re-establish your point(s) as personal interpretations.)
Second: please confirm that you mean by the words and punctuation of "cessation/fruition" that you view cessation and fruition to be equivalent expressions of a concept of an actual occurrence.
The solidus (/) creates equivalency or choice, as in: "you can use either word 'cessation' or 'fruition' "(equivalent meaning) or "take your pick of the concepts 'cessation' or 'fruition' " (choice between different meanings).
If you would explain what you mean by "cessation/fruition" that will be useful in this thread.
Fourth, the points you're making in this first paragraph (which, responsibly, I assign to you, person of the alias End in Sight, until it is made clear that this is Bhante V's own concept and/or his own wording) seem to be:i) paraphrasing your words "[that experiencing cessation of perception and feeling* is followed by seeing the activity of dependent origination]"; and
ii) paraphrasing and reordering your words "cessation/fruition [is not a result of] the noting tradition and climbing through the progress of insight"
*And you express not understanding what is meant by these five words(italicized here): "whatever he means by
cessation of perception and feeling").
I have had two ultra-clear experiences involving dependent origination. I observed some kind of anxiety happening associated with my throat, and (unlike every other time up until then) saw how the whole experience of anxiety is a composite created in a step-by-step fashion. After seeing this, there was an enormous reduction in full-body tension...but, it still seemed to me that there was something further I needed to understand, so I looked at my experience for about 10 more seconds, found some remaining tension, and had a repeat of the experience (with similar reduction in full-body tension). At this point it seemed to me there was nothing left that I would be able to analyze, and went on my merry way. I described the outcome of this as there being only "residue" of the gross states such as anxiety that previously occurred for me.
In this paragraph I understand that you have had a reduction in full-body tension as a result of seeing anxiety arising in step-by-step fashion, and that this was one of two experiences you've had wherein you experienced and learned what is meant by "dependent origination" (e.g., your seeing of the step-by-step fashioning of your anxiety
so that and that anxiety also eventually associated with the throat).
In relation to the next paragraph (below) something about the above was "so clear". So, this above experience of observing some kind of anxiety associated with the throat clarified for you the concept "dependent origination".
Is it correct to say that this event associated with the throat and anxiety began by applying the mental faculty to watching ("observing some kind of anxiety"), then that this event became physical/interoceptive/body-consciousness ("enormous reduction in full-body tension"), then the mental faculty was re-applied to watch the sensation ("I looked at my experience for about 10 more seconds"), then gave way to release of tension?
Do you still have this "residue" of anxiety which you know to be fashioned step-by-step?
I have had other experiences involving dependent origination since then, but none that were nearly so clear. I have also had lots of shifts since then that did not involve dependent origination, some bigger, some smaller...there was one big one in particular that was very impressive, but impressive in a different way (not causing a further massive reduction in tension).
Paragraph 3: more about personally experiencing dependent origination, and introducing shifts, one experience of which did not relate to dependent origination and impressed you.
On the assumption that what I'm talking about is what Bhante V is talking about, it appears I gained two paths back-to-back. I find this fairly unlikely, but theoretically possible. It's also possible that what I'm describing does not meet Bhante V's requirements for seeing dependent origination in operation (for example, I do not remember an experience of the cessation of perception and feeling...though, I was not looking for such a thing, and might have missed it / forgot), and so is not related to paths as he understands them. And it's also possible that paths and this experience of watching dependent origination are not connected in the strict way that Bhante V claims.
Para 4: reference to assumption is useful and indicative of uncertainty, the personal observation of which uncertainty can be useful (and you've mentioned a lack of understanding "whatever he means by cessation of perception and feeling"). This paragraph seems to express uncertainty about self-placement within a context of stream-entry.
"I do not remember an experience of the cessation of perception and feeling" is irrelevant. The accurate claim is, "I claim to not have had an experience of cessation of perception and feeling", or "I don't think that I have had an experience of the cessation of perception and feeling". This is important, because claims are based on awareness of having had them, not on a memory of them. To your awareness, you have not had these experiences. Observe how your mind and body feel right now. Is there any impulse or urge or tension?
On a theoretical level, the suttas say that stream enterers see that "whatever arises is subject to cessation", which could mean cessation / fruition, but could also mean the observation of dependent origination, the description of which emphasizes the causal dependence of one thing on another (so for whatever arises, if the cause stops, the caused thing ceases). They also associate stream entry with the arising of the "Dhamma eye", which makes a lot more sense to me as a description of having seen something about how dependent origination works (which is a fundamental thing in the suttas) rather than a description of something related to cessation / fruition and any things that come from that. But, I know of no explicit evidence from the suttas that later paths are associated with dependent origination in this way.
Again, for sturdy construction, please cite or link at least two suttas when you recruit "suttas" support for a notion ("the suttas say..."). This inclusion i) shows a comfort and preparedness to speak for oneself/one's own conclusions and/or ii) upholds a transparent standard (i.e., allowing others to voice differences). There are fields in which it is sometimes intolerable to have vague supporting documents (e.g., accounting, science experiments, economic theory, coding); building and/or explaining the basis a concept of an experience is not different. At present, people on this site seem to care about details and their authenticity and the site itself is
based on a "hardcore" practice of technical details and practicality, therefore if you continue to recruit support for your statements, it will probably be a benefit to include primary sources with links and/or citations.
Ok: in this fifth paragraph you are saying that you've read that stream entry is marked by the knowing of causal dependency.
What do you mean by the "Dhamma eye" other than that it is a) associated with
stream-entry (or
stream entry?)
, ii)What is causing you to see one perspective as "mak a lot more sense to you as a description of having seen something about how dependent origination works...rather than a description of something related to cessation/fruition"? Can you find this preferential view in the four stages which stages begin with stream entry?
If full-body tension enormously reduced in you upon observing step-by-step causation, but for a residue, can it be said that you are close to cessation, but not there entirely? That when that residue is completely gone, the realization of that practice will be complete (bear its fruit of full cessation, come to fruition)?
Residues may be small, but they are significant indicators in increasingly stilling waters.
What do you think?
[edit: in
red]