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After 4th Path: What do to?

After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 12:53 AM
I am writing this thread in order to get the opinion of and maybe a discussion started between the other people on this site who have reached fourth path about what to do afterwords.

I reached 4th path on the 29 of December of 2011, and since the wisdom eye opened/ stabilized I have begun to notice very strongly that there is much still in my experience which is painful and unskillful. I feel that there is definitely farther to go in the sense of negative patterns of behavior and the way I deal with thoughts; ie. repression, grasping...

I read a while ago that wisdom of emptiness is really considered to be halfway on the path to Buddhahood, the second half I assume dealing more with cultivating compassion. Everything I have come across with regards to awakening indicates that after awakening until death is essentially the longest path, on which there is no limit to how far you can go. There is a shizen young video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptkH0uK1uXM) where he talks about seeing the no self (4th path)as being just the beginning of a long process of clearing away the mental clutter(he calls “screw ups”) that remain. Unfortunately he does not mention specific practices that can help one to go deeper.

It seems that many on this board have turned to actual freedom practices as the next step, and Tarin is “actualy free?”. I will admit, I know very little about the actual freedom practice. I have looked into it, but I was turned off by the lack of clear information.

In summary, after 4th path, I have really begun to see that there is more to do, and I am wondering what other fourth pathers have done after seeing the no self.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 4:56 AM as a reply to T DC.
Tim Christensen:
I am writing this thread in order to get the opinion of and maybe a discussion started between the other people on this site who have reached fourth path about what to do afterwords.

I reached 4th path on the 29 of December of 2011, and since the wisdom eye opened/ stabilized I have begun to notice very strongly that there is much still in my experience which is painful and unskillful. I feel that there is definitely farther to go in the sense of negative patterns of behavior and the way I deal with thoughts; ie. repression, grasping...

I read a while ago that wisdom of emptiness is really considered to be halfway on the path to Buddhahood, the second half I assume dealing more with cultivating compassion. Everything I have come across with regards to awakening indicates that after awakening until death is essentially the longest path, on which there is no limit to how far you can go. There is a shizen young video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptkH0uK1uXM) where he talks about seeing the no self (4th path)as being just the beginning of a long process of clearing away the mental clutter(he calls “screw ups”) that remain. Unfortunately he does not mention specific practices that can help one to go deeper.

It seems that many on this board have turned to actual freedom practices as the next step, and Tarin is “actualy free?”. I will admit, I know very little about the actual freedom practice. I have looked into it, but I was turned off by the lack of clear information.

In summary, after 4th path, I have really begun to see that there is more to do, and I am wondering what other fourth pathers have done after seeing the no self.


Hi tim,

Can you please explain in your own words what '4th path' is like as an ongoing experience and how you got it done from 1st to 4th. You seem to have done it extremely quickly going by your admission of 'no stream entry' at the end of last year. I'd be interested at how you did it so fast if you really did.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2280902

Nick

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 4:06 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
For sure, that is quite a reasonable request. Chiefly, what I did was try to follow Daniels advice in MCTB very precisely and diligently. (I am extremely grateful to Daniel for MTCB, it was an invaluable resource.) Over the past few months, I spent the majority of my time in daily life, no matter what I was doing, engaged some form of insight practice; either noting, or noticing the flickering of physical sensations. I approached this practice with the attitude, and knowledge that I did not know the truth, and could only know it through attention to physical sensations.

Formal meditation wise, I used shamatha and vipassana meditation in conjunction with each other. For the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd paths, my meditation consisted, for the most part, of initially counting breaths (counting ten breaths 3 times) until I had developed some stability of mind (which could probably be called access concentration) and then switching to noticing the flickering of physical sensations. If my mind was relaxed and alert I would focus on flickering of sensations all over the body and just let them happen without specifically focusing on any one area. If my mind was more tense, or tired and paying attention and letting sensation be was a struggle, I would focus on a specific area of the body with noticeable sensations, generally the bridge of the nose, or my arms... I did the noticing practice from MCTB (of trying to perceive to parts of the body at once, and noticing awareness switching back and forth between them) a good amount during meditation in order to get y mind up to speed with noticing, whereupon I would switch to broad body sensation noticing. I really didn't try to do one technique in particular during an insight meditation session, but just switched it up depending on what seemed to be working.

After 3rd path, I was able to access the shamatha jhanas from 1 to 8 pretty quickly, as well as the two additional pureland jhanas (9 and 10). After getting comfortable with working up through the shamatha jhanas, my mediation generally consisted of rising up through the jhanas from 1 to 10, falling back down to 7, and then from there noticing the flickering of sensations (or beginning the process of insight...).

When I reached 4th path, it felt mind blowing, and at the same time very ordinary, or very natural, like I wanted to say "what the fuck!!?!, but at the same time there was really no need at all to freak out about it. I could suddenly see very cleary that all thoughts of I were just thoughts, and I could see the space in between these thoughts. The main thing which was apparent to me was the vast mystery of life, just this massive unknowable, ungraspable aspect which pervades everything. The best I can describe it is a vast incomprehensible field in which everything is.

Since the initial experience of it, it seems I have either become more accustomed to it, or the experience has grown more subtle. At a time like this when I really turn my mind toward perceiving it, and recollecting my initial impressions, the feeling is strongly there. In daily life, the feeling is there, but subtle. The more I focus on it the more dominant it becomes. I have found it is relatively easy to be distracted from this perspective however, and to fall into grasping at experience and thoughts. As well, the patterns in which I have acted for the past 20 years of my life are still dominant. The way I interact with others, the way I treat myself, basically my collection of attitudes on life, are still going strong. This is what bothers me about my experience, and this is what I would like advice on how to work with.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 5:50 PM as a reply to T DC.
Hi Tim,

Can you elaborate on how the experience of 'self' has changed? What of the centre point?

I have found it is relatively easy to be distracted from this perspective however, and to fall into grasping at experience and thoughts. As well, the patterns in which I have acted for the past 20 years of my life are still dominant. The way I interact with others, the way I treat myself, basically my collection of attitudes on life, are still going strong. This is what bothers me about my experience, and this is what I would like advice on how to work with.


There are options with what you seem to want to do something about. What do you wish to do about that which is unsatisfactory? 1/ Get to a place where those things arise still but the relationship has changed towards them? 2/ Find out how those things arise and cease their cause thus cease their arising all together? It depends on what you want and what you can live with.

I describe in the link below what I did from April last year onwards, 9 months after getting MCTB 4th. It is option 2/.

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/


I'm sure you'll be exposed to others as well. There are lots of ideas floating around on what is appropriate post-4th practice and ideology. Seems many of us want others to validate our own choices. Strange that.

Here are some yogis talking about option 1/

Edit: you may see that option 2/ is expressed in the option 1/ link above as:

Trying to get rid of the stuff is part of what keeps it in its place, and also part of the reason why it's more bothersome than it needs to be.


This is a possible approach and result when one does not know how to go about practicing option 2/ appropriately. This 'trap' can be avoided and at the same time one still ceases the causes for unsatisfactoriness. To avoid the mentioned 'trap' , one's practice may involve a combination of both options 1/ and 2/ as well as the inclusion of other practices/approaches.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 6:24 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai:

Seems many of us want others to validate our own choices. Strange that.


That does happen. But I think it's sometimes not what it seems. Often it's a case of trying address each other's misunderstandings about the nature of one's choices, and the reasons for making them. That can come across as wanting others to validate (or share/adopt) one's choices, but actually isn't.. it's an intent for those choices to be understood (first).. otherwise there's no point in talking about them, and neither party benefits from the discussion. (And misunderstandings abound).

E.g.,, I've observed (mainly on KFD with you and EIS) that a lot of people who choose AF are perfectly OK with another person's choice not to pursue it, but they're not quite as OK with a failure to understand what it entails and how it stands in relation to other attainments. This can come across as forceful advocacy or pissing contest, when in fact it's just an attempt to explain something that isn't so clear to the other. (Perhaps) conversely...

John

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 6:24 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
Nikolai:

Seems many of us want others to validate our own choices. Strange that.


That does happen. But I think it's sometimes not what it seems. Often it's a case of trying address each other's misunderstandings about the nature of one's choices, and the reasons for making it. That can come across as wanting others to validate one's choices, but actually isn't.. it's an intent for those choices to be understood (first).. otherwise there's no point in talking about them, and neither party benefits from the discussion. (And misunderstandings abound).

E.g.,, I've observed (mainly on KFD with you and EIS) that a lot of people who choose AF are perfectly OK with another person's choice not to, but they're not quite as OK with a failure to understand what it entails and how it stands in relation to other attainments. This can come across as forceful advocacy or pissing contest, when in fact it's just an attempt to explain something that isn't so clear to the other. (Perhaps) conversely...

John


Yes, it would seem so. Misunderstandings abound.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 6:40 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:

There are options with what you seem to want to do something about. What do you wish to do about that which is unsatisfactory? 1/ Get to a place where those things arise still but the relationship has changed towards them?

that is 4th path in ingram's technical model (as referred to in MCTB and on which basis he claims arahatship).

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 6:57 PM as a reply to T DC.
Tim Christensen:
When I reached 4th path, it felt mind blowing, and at the same time very ordinary, or very natural, like I wanted to say "what the fuck!!?!, but at the same time there was really no need at all to freak out about it. I could suddenly see very cleary that all thoughts of I were just thoughts, and I could see the space in between these thoughts. The main thing which was apparent to me was the vast mystery of life, just this massive unknowable, ungraspable aspect which pervades everything. The best I can describe it is a vast incomprehensible field in which everything is.

Since the initial experience of it, it seems I have either become more accustomed to it, or the experience has grown more subtle. At a time like this when I really turn my mind toward perceiving it, and recollecting my initial impressions, the feeling is strongly there. In daily life, the feeling is there, but subtle. The more I focus on it the more dominant it becomes. I have found it is relatively easy to be distracted from this perspective however, and to fall into grasping at experience and thoughts.


This reminds me of my experience of 3rd path.

Not a diagnosis, just a comment.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 7:02 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:
Nikolai .:

There are options with what you seem to want to do something about. What do you wish to do about that which is unsatisfactory? 1/ Get to a place where those things arise still but the relationship has changed towards them?

that is 4th path in ingram's technical model (as referred to in MCTB and on which basis he claims arahatship).



Hehe. So perhaps then, Tim has not gotten to 4th path as described by Daniel in MCTB; a 4th path which you yourself Tarin have said many of the pragmatic/hardcore dharma movement never really got to even though they say they did, including me and yourself.

So perhaps an option then is to get to exactly what Daniel has talked of. Or follow in Tarin and others' footsteps. Or both.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 7:59 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
tarin greco:
Nikolai .:

There are options with what you seem to want to do something about. What do you wish to do about that which is unsatisfactory? 1/ Get to a place where those things arise still but the relationship has changed towards them?

that is 4th path in ingram's technical model (as referred to in MCTB and on which basis he claims arahatship).



Hehe. So perhaps then, Tim has not gotten to 4th path as described by Daniel in MCTB; a 4th path which you yourself Tarin have said many of the pragmatic/hardcore dharma movement never really got to even though they say they did, including me and yourself.

what i'd said was that almost nothing of what i'd seen in other people's accounts of their attainment and experience of 4th path resembled the account of daniel's 4th path i had heard from him, and that owing to the entirety of its description (a composite of things he's both written and said in conversation), i was not certain that what i had acomplished was the same thing (though i was also not very concerned).

tarin

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 8:16 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
tarin greco:
Nikolai .:
tarin greco:
Nikolai .:

There are options with what you seem to want to do something about. What do you wish to do about that which is unsatisfactory? 1/ Get to a place where those things arise still but the relationship has changed towards them?

that is 4th path in ingram's technical model (as referred to in MCTB and on which basis he claims arahatship).



Hehe. So perhaps then, Tim has not gotten to 4th path as described by Daniel in MCTB; a 4th path which you yourself Tarin have said many of the pragmatic/hardcore dharma movement never really got to even though they say they did, including me and yourself.

what i'd said was that almost nothing of what i'd seen in other people's accounts of their attainment and experience of 4th path resembled the account of daniel's 4th path i had heard from him, and that owing to the entirety of its description (a composite of things he's both written and said in conversation), i was not certain that what i had acomplished was the same thing (though i was also not very concerned).

tarin


And not being concerned with where you were matching Daniel's descriptions of 4th path was due to your focus on seeing an end to the causes of that which was unsatisfactory in your ongoing experience of what may or may not have been 4th path as described by Daniel?

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 8:49 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.

There are other aspects that may be of value to discuss at some other time, but those are a great place to start for those who wish to claim this. If you truly have those, then perhaps we can talk about a few other points that are less central and essential.

Now, how there can still be affect (though quite modified in many ways) when there is centerlessness and agencylessness, this is a mystery to the AF kids and to me as well, and that brings me to my next point: there seems to be areas of development depending on what you look for and aim for that may arise independently, and not everything seems to come as a package necessarily. Those things are what I looked for really hard for about 7 years, and that is what I found. Now I find that the interest in the unraveling of what drives that residual affect is arising, and so that investigation happens on its own also.

Perhaps people will find this helpful in some way.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 8:56 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.

There are other aspects that may be of value to discuss at some other time, but those are a great place to start for those who wish to claim this. If you truly have those, then perhaps we can talk about a few other points that are less central and essential.

Now, how there can still be affect (though quite modified in many ways) when there is centerlessness and agencylessness, this is a mystery to the AF kids and to me as well, and that brings me to my next point: there seems to be areas of development depending on what you look for and aim for that may arise independently, and not everything seems to come as a package necessarily. Those things are what I looked for really hard for about 7 years, and that is what I found. Now I find that the interest in the unraveling of what drives that residual affect is arising, and so that investigation happens on its own also.

Perhaps people will find this helpful in some way.


I think it will be great to have this as a future reference for any other 4th path claimants. Maybe you can have it as part of the wiki. it's good info to have and compare to. Thanks Daniel.

Nick

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 9:02 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes.


How does that relate to this?

MCTB:
There is also a state somewhere in that territory [post-8th jhana] that seems basically like pure presence, like being a super-pervading Watcher, with the quality of perceiving or awareness itself being the dominant quality. This has a very different quality from the 6th jhana Boundless Consciousness, and in my opinion is far superior, more fundamental, and could be argued as the highest of the states that involve experience.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 9:20 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
An obvious and excellent question and gets to the heart of the thing.

If that state arises and it seems like that that all pervading quality of watching is really a separate, in-control, centralized watcher or subject, even in some subtle way, then there is more to look at. If that state arises and it is just one more natural, causal, centerless state, albeit with those particular qualities, which are themselves empty of any sense that they form or constitute some self or subject, then that is a very good sign and one should see how it holds up over time.

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 10:01 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
If that state arises and it seems like that that all pervading quality of watching is really a separate, in-control, centralized watcher or subject, even in some subtle way, then there is more to look at. If that state arises and it is just one more natural, causal, centerless state, albeit with those particular qualities, which are themselves empty of any sense that they form or constitute some self or subject, then that is a very good sign and one should see how it holds up over time.


Would you consider your 4th path experience in context of this state well characterized by a statement such as "if there is an experience of something that would be described as a super-pervading watcher, it is immediately known to be an experience that is empty of being a watcher, self, subject, witness, etc. despite the description being apt?"

(In other words, "watcher" would just be a label for some sensation or sensations that would previously have been called a watcher but are now just sensations, despite it being clear that "watcher" captures how those sensations would previously have been understood as well as describes them in some way currently.)

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 10:19 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
Precisely

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/15/12 10:27 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
And that goes equally for any other sensations that seem to imply watching

The problem is not that quality, just something in its not knowing itself as it is as it happens

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/16/12 3:27 AM as a reply to T DC.
Tim Christensen:


In summary, after 4th path, I have really begun to see that there is more to do, and I am wondering what other fourth pathers have done after seeing the no self.


After realization there's still a body there, which is your vehicle for living. What about cultivating your physical body

RE: After 4th Path: What do to?
Answer
1/16/12 9:11 AM as a reply to End in Sight.
End in Sight:
Tim Christensen:
When I reached 4th path, it felt mind blowing, and at the same time very ordinary, or very natural, like I wanted to say "what the fuck!!?!, but at the same time there was really no need at all to freak out about it. I could suddenly see very cleary that all thoughts of I were just thoughts, and I could see the space in between these thoughts. The main thing which was apparent to me was the vast mystery of life, just this massive unknowable, ungraspable aspect which pervades everything. The best I can describe it is a vast incomprehensible field in which everything is.

Since the initial experience of it, it seems I have either become more accustomed to it, or the experience has grown more subtle. At a time like this when I really turn my mind toward perceiving it, and recollecting my initial impressions, the feeling is strongly there. In daily life, the feeling is there, but subtle. The more I focus on it the more dominant it becomes. I have found it is relatively easy to be distracted from this perspective however, and to fall into grasping at experience and thoughts.


This reminds me of my experience of 3rd path.

Not a diagnosis, just a comment.


Another non-diagnostic comment: reminds me of experience after Stream Entry. Huh. Daniel's clarifications of 4th path are pretty helpful in this regard.