Hi Tommy, thanks for taking the time to reply, I know it takes time to read it all and dive into it.I hope to do the same when Ive improved my terminology and understanding.
Tommy M:
Unlikely to have been 1st path, for reasons I'll make clearer as I go. It's most likely to have been the A&P and no further. You came over from RT didn't you?
Yep! Bare in mind, everyone through the RT system has come out with a wide variety of results.
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Move along a few months, and what Ive realized now were probably progress of insight cycles. Alot of doubt arising, alot of crap coming up, alot of feelings of me wanting the original feeling back, it coming and going in waves (could be days/weeks). But ironically still great times during this where it felt as easily as strong if not stronger than it did day
The line I've emboldened is not something I ever experienced
after 1st path, and I definitely don't recall
ever wanting things to feel the way they were before stream entry. Your brief description here sounds to me like someone who's cycling through the ñanas, the pace at which you'd move through them would be dependent on a lot of stuff but, since we can be pretty certain that you've at least crossed the A&P, it's safe to say that you'd be cycling and the shitty stuff is all Dark Night related.
Ok, I wrote that badly , I would never EVER want to go back to where I was pre A+P, before the change I was full of lies, beliefs , ideas, suffering, jealousy, feelings of inferiority, feelings of superiority, all that nonsense.
What I meant by "me wanting the original feeling back", was whenever there was doubt,or feelings of old, or a retraction in the sense of freedom, I would want the sense of freedom back, not the feelings of old.
Literally not for a billion euro would I want to go back to pre shift (be it A+P or stream entry, whatever is it)
Sounds more likely to have been Equanimity. The brain doesn't believe in anything, "you" believe in things, the brain is a lump of organic matter so perhaps you're confusing things a bit here. Could you describe this thing about the brain still believing in a self in more detail?
Yea sure, well basically after the change from time to time ,maybe for a few hours, a few days, or even a week or 2, I would starting "selfing" again, like I described above, basically feelings of old would arise, but for months I sort of denied it, saying "no no I dont believe in this crap anymore", but then 5 months after the change I sort of let go of that nonsense and got more honest and realized I still beleive stuff of old, even if the illusion has been seen.
Dark Night, definitely. Still cycling. The bliss waves you describe are A&P related.
Definitely agree, the only reason I was putting stream entry on it was because I was under the impression from reading MCTB that cycles still occur.
On what do you base your claims that "Judgement , jealousy, comparing, looking up to people, etc etc, nearly fully gone, but still not quite (even if I wouldnt admit it to myself)"? What wouldn't you admit to your apparently non-existent self?
That there was still some lingering conditioning left, I would think "this is great, I dont care people think of me anymore", and it was true for the most part, really it was (and is 10 times more the case now than even back then), but from time to time something would arise that would make me realize Im still sort of "looking up" to someone, rarely mind you, but still it happened.
Dont get me wrong, this isnt about not respecting, admiring, or even envying someone else. This is about feeling somewhat inferior or even superior to someone else. Thats the bit thats gone.
- 12 days ago the feeling notably wearing off, and things turning for the worst, panic and fear (in certain situations) bringing itself up. Stuff I hadnt previously dealt with really bothering me now. The great clarity from all this making me realize the utter insanity of believing the fear, a huge desire to improve myself. I went through a week long process of complete change, where I wrote my fears, dealt with them in real life, faced them, literally got myself into deep fearful situations knowing that if I didnt it may get worse. Realizing the only thing causing bad fear was the "what if" running in my head when I experienced subtle fear. Upon realizing this "what if", and dealing with it, a fast dissolving of the fear.And boy did that fix things right. Possibly the hardest week Id to go through since the start, but the most rewarding.
Dark Night. Still cycling.
It was the toughest yet most rewarding process Ive ever went through, I really faced up to some stuff that even 8/9 months after the initial A+P I still hadnt addressed.
- The past week?, from an understanding to a near complete dissolving of fear, peaceful , no me , no controller alot of the time, but not all the time,empty, thoughts arising, not mine, just thoughts, close to the A+P I would have had about 2 weeks ago,but not quite as excited about it, definitely not as "wow" if you get me. yet still really enjoying the feeling, and things looking pretty vivid. Pretty much all silly conventional suffering gone. Still some basic ego inhibitions, even if I dont really feel the fear of it. Still a "not finished" feeling,even if Im not suffering.
Equanimity. I suggest rethinking whether or not terms like "no controller" are accurate descriptions of these experiences, I'd also recommend remaining vigilant as, much as you might like to think that "pretty much all silly conventional suffering gone" I wouldn't be so confident in making these claims at this early stage. Why? Based on my own experiences of thinking that that sort of thing was gone, forever, only to have my arse handed to me over and over again with each cycle.
You are right , Ive done that loads myself, since coming here and beginning practice though, and with the help of "End in Sight", I have definitely made huge progress in addressing the silly stuff, and getting more focused.
For about 2.5 months now there has been certain stuff that hasnt returned.
If "a TINY bit may come" then it's not gone, is it? Set a high standard and stick to it, don't just accept "well things are a bit better now, but...".
Couldnt agree more, I guess Im in such a mode now that I welcome fear that I am just happy to be at least at this point. Dont get me wrong, Im not going to pretend to myself I dont want fear 100% eliminated.
Quick Question: should stream entry mean no fear afterwards?? I was under the impression the same cycles still occur. But this is definitely NOT stream entry if fear should be 100% gone.
Again, Equanimity is what I'd suggest which is good going if you're not formally practicing.
Ok cool!
Based on this post and your others on this site, I'd say you haven't gotten 1st path yet and are most likely cycling through the ñanas up to Equanimity and back down.
Ok cool, I need to read the book again and look at these parts more clearly.
I thought stream entry for a reasons:
1. Anyone here who describes stream entry seems to have similar experiences as I had.
2. Sometimes when I read problems people run into I think to myself "Im sort of beyond that" (not in an egoic way, just that Ive dealt with that stuff already"
3. As soon as I got to the 1st path description in MCTB I finally felt I could relate to what was being said. However that may EASILY be a situation of me picking and choosing what I want to read based on my assumptions.
4. The "beyond first path" chapter was without a doubt the one I felt I could relate to and got the most help from.
Yes, you'll know when you get 4th path but if you're trying to understand things in the terms used in MCTB then I suggest you familiarize yourself with the terminology, and the technical criteria required for you to qualify as having attained Paths in this model.
You are right, I need to read through bits of it again, and get even more up on the terminology , im still all over the place on that front.
Could you describe this "strong sense" better? I'll tell you one thing from my own experience: Don't go with having a "strong sense" or a "feeling" or an "intuition" or a "suspicion" that you've gotten Paths. You're usually wrong. I know this from having fucked up self-diagnosis repeatedly and suffering for it.
I guess its a stable strong confidence that Im really making progress, I guess its all the side effects and the fact that stuff isnt really "coming and going" like it used. Just the emptiness, peace, no controller* , much weaker residual reactions if they do occur at all, meditation being no effort whatsoever, I guess a drive in general regarding where this is going.
*no controller: Ok , when I say this , Im not just throwing it out there randomly, its fairly difficult to describe because of the contradictory nature of it. You know when the world feels like its on automatic, cars moving, people walking, people talking. Now, Im aware that feeling is probably only temporary A+P, BUT it feels like it applies here too, that actions are being carried out, and that the thoughts causing the actions are irrelevant.Its very very hard to explain to be honest. Ill stop using it now.
So basically you have no idea what it is that you're getting closer to beyond what you've read on here, or in MCTB and on your own speculations. It's better to not know and then investigate that not knowing itself.
yep pretty much...

, Ill be honest I only ever heard of any of this stuff AFTER the change , I was never looking for anything prior to the change. Ive read MCTB and quite a few threads here,im trying my best to just put this somewhere on a map, thats all. And Im aware my time at RT can mess things up in terms of terminology/culture/understanding clash. So im trying my best to drop it and start fresh from here.
I know this response sounds critical and dismissive of your claims but I'm basing what I've said on repeated reading of your post and have given what you've said some serious consideration before replying.
I really appreciate it.
I'm not trying to be a prick, there's no point in bullshitting you and telling you you've gotten this Path or whatever when there's no evidence of it in your descriptions. I'm not saying that's it's not possible for you to have gotten 1st path, which is about as far as I would go based on what you've said, but having gotten 1st path before I ever read MCTB I know a bit about how hard it is to line things up when you're not familiar with this model and terminology. In fact, it was only after finding this site that I even found out what stream entry was and that, through some weird turn of events and hybridized meditation practices, I had gotten it!
You are not being a prick AT ALL man, this is purely objective for me, not personal, I just want to get organized thats all, whether the label "1st path" or whatever else is put on it wont change the experience. And hey, if this isnt even Stream Entry, then why on Earth would I complain, if things can get this good, and such big changes be madeover 10 months, and it isnt even the tip of the Iceberg??? then even better!
1. What's your current practice? How often do you meditate? What style of meditation do you practice?
I only began practicing 2 months ago, and only more intensely 2/3 weeks ago since reading MCTB.
I would have to say on average per day, 30 mins concentration on the breath, followed by insight 30 mins, experiening the senses/vibrations/as many as possible per second, then sometimes insight focused directly on thought, not the content,just occurance of thought itself.
Sometimes Ill do this stuff more than once in a day if Im not busy.
Then , whenever the mind isnt occupied by conventional life stuff I try and just concentrate on sensations, sometimes I do this if I think of it,even WHILE busy with other stuff.
2. Can you describe in basic phenomenological detail what happens when you sit down to meditate?
I wrote something here, but deleted it, because it was crap. Ill meditate properly later on and give a decent reply.
1) You should be able to get into some sort of altered/meditative state at will within about 1/2 a second just by deciding to investigate something or look at reality carefully or incline your mind that way 100% of the time you try this.
I THINK so, so maybe thats not enough, but I find I do this alright, especially if Im bored. I can instantly watch how words are utterly meaningless, I might be with a group of people, and just decide to forget about the content of whats being said, and just listen to the random sounds,and how there is no "subject" ,its just ideas. Ironically, if I began talking I get RIGHT back into the subject again. I do this with other stuff too, like watching people walking around , as if there is no entity or thinker behind the people,almost like robots (yea all that might seem a bit childish or silly)
. The other one I do is like an instant unity feeling, not this grand "WE ARE ALL ONE" or anything silly, just an instant acknowledgement of all surroundings, and me not being seperate from it. This is ALOT more subtle,silly, and small than the way Im describing it in words though. And its just something I do if Im sitting there bored.
This may not be what Daniel is talking about though.
2) Once you become familiar with the insight stages as described, you should be able to sit down in a brief version of 4th, progress down in to 5th, hit the Dark Night, progress to Equanimity, and then, maybe, depending on a number of factors, get a Fruition: note: not everyone can do this last part, even if they are a good meditator. Some can and some can't. Criteria for a Fruition are given in MCTB, as well as common mimics listed. Even if you are a stream enterer, if you haven't exercised this ability or done it only once, it may not be that easy to do it again until you have had some practice and maybe not even then. This is particularly true of those who have come up in other traditions where that particular ability was not the focus of practice.
I need to get up on my terminology properly to see if this is happening . It may not be, bare in mind, Im only completely new to meditation.
3) Your life should be completely different in some ways: problem is, the A&P can do this on its own, so this is insufficient criteria in and of itself.
Duly noted!!
4) Talk with someone who has stream entry about this, particularly someone who is familiar with the variability in presentation and abilities that can occur.
I guess this is the only place I know

5) Try to have repeat Fruitions: incline, incline, incline, and practice. Resolve, resolve, resolve and practice. Pay attention. Learn to navigate through the Vipassana Jhanas, learn their qualities, learn how to shift to each new level and know what they shift was and how it occurred: this is the foundation of the solid practice that causes progress and clarifies what was what.
Ok, Im going to start seeing can I do this or not.
(I've highlighted that line about life changing stuff and the A&P as I think it's relevant to your own situation.)
One of the most useful things I've found along the way so far is to underestimate where you think you are, it's for this reason that I'm incredibly skeptical of outright claims to paths with no evidence to back it up. You've obviously got the urge to investigate this stuff more so where you are, whether it's pre- or post-1st path, isn't a big deal anyway as it will unfold by itself if you practice well. Again, I'm not trying to be a prick or belittle your claims, I'm being as critical with your descriptions as I am with my own as I see no value in not setting a high standard.
Hope that's of some use.
Hey listen it was of great help. You are right, I do have the urge, there was always an interest in the mind. The change 10 months answered that interest and also made me aware of alot of bullshit I was living. It freed me from alot of it, not all of it though. And you are right , 1st path or not, it doesnt matter a damn. Its purely for practicality I guess.
I dont want to think Im further than I am, definitely not!! But while being cautious about all this, I have to admit, the thought arises alot that I have attained stream entry, and it just often silly trying to get something I already got.
I guess the only important thing is practice and the fun of how its changing my life, maps can be dangerous!! lol
Thanks again Tommy.n