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Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off.

Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off.
vipassana meditation log notes practice progress rapture
Answer
4/28/12 11:59 PM
Hello. I'm Kellen! I'm 19 and male. I've been interested in philosophy and mind stuff for as long as I can remember, and eventually I discovered Buddhism and found the ideas very appealing. I was trying to do concentration practices for awhile, but then read about the idea of strata of mind, and how some think jhanas are just nanas that are stable for the mind, and that the only difference is whether or not you let it solidify or try to break it down and see how it's unsatisfactory, transient, and void of self. I was also thinking about Daniel Ingram's story and how he said he was able to do jhanas extremely well after stream entry, in contrast to before.

This made me think... I should switch to insight practice, as this seems to be a road based on quick progress, and moving through strata of the mind (or nanas, whichever you prefer) in a way that is based on gaining knowledge and cultivating "growth" as it pertains to awareness. I'm now thinking it'll be easier to do insight now, which will take me to enlightenment, and then see if the nanas which are stable and pleasant are really actually what are called jhanas. I know about the idea of vipassana jhanas, and from reading about the strata of mind (on Kenneth's page), it sounds reasonable that vipassana jhanas exist amongst the many nanas since they're places the mind can rest, and thus places we stop and say... "this is a state". Then it's just a matter of abiding in the state, or busting it into the vibrations and such with insights. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Anyways, I've been practicing insight meditation, and I'm starting to feel like things are really taking off. I've read Daniel's book and have found it useful. If you read this... thanks! You have done a great thing and it's so cool that you're so practical about enlightenment and honest about it. I believe that even those who sincerely wish to become enlightened are not able to practice effectively when they don't have the notion that they can actually do this stuff. That's what I'm realizing now. I'm actually doing this stuff! emoticon

I'm a pianist, and to practice, I've realized that I need to work freely and effectively with concentration and awareness to understand the mechanisms at play, play around with different techniques to see how the whole process is effected, and concentrate/stabilize the mind in order to sustain continuous effective practice, or even performance/the end product. The parallels to meditation are quite clear, I think. So for meditation, I've been "warming up" by switching my locus of focus rapidly from one knee to the other, or one hand to the other. It's like a drum roll getting progressively faster. I start at a comfortable frequency and then speed it up to my threshold, and try to push it just a little bit, then go back and forth for a bit. By this point, if I just "release the reigns" on my attention, I can observe it going from sensation to sensation all over, at a fairly quick rate (3 to 4 hz usually, depending on the moment). This is actually what has seemed to make progress for me.

So yesterday, I did this process of warming up the speed of sensate awareness, and then "released the reigns", letting my attention jump from sensation to sensation (but knowing the sensation), watching this just happen. Usually it just involves feeling various parts of my body like places where skin is touching something or where muscles are twitching (which does seem to be happening more lately, or I'm just noticing more) and cycling between them quickly. Then sometimes, I'll just lock in on one spot like my knee or a spot on my back. I notice that the further I get "involved" in this practice, the more things seem to be tingling. I suppose this is the transience aspect of phenomenon? When I open my eyes after practicing, everything I see seems to be tingling a lot too, like a low quality camera filming in the dark.

Anyways, I was practicing yesterday, and I got a text, which made my phone vibrate. First my mind jumped to the sensation of the phone vibrating, and then this immediately caused a feeling of anxiousness/butterflies/whatever it is when you're startled to arise in my stomach, where my awareness then went. Then, it went to my head where the feeling of the fear seemed to happen. The awareness went from the phone vibrating to the sinking stomach feeling to the startled feeling in my head in only a second or maybe less. When it happened, I didn't feel involved. It was like watching a chain of dominoes. The vibrating phone, the physical feeling of stomach sinking, and the mental/in my head feeling of startlingness all happened in a causal way, each seeming completely isolated from the other effects. Does this sound like the knowledge of cause and effect? I'm thinking so.


So I just practiced a few hours ago for about 40 minutes, going about practice in the same way. However, this time was much different. Everything my attention went to was very irritating, which I would take to be awareness of the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness. I realized that before this, there was aversion to settling the mind on these things, and that my awareness would let go of these things quicker, as though being burnt. This is to say, I didn't get a good look at those moments since they were unpleasant so I shooed them from awareness. But tonight, I thought about how that's probably the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness, so I didn't avoid these feelings of annoyance or unpleasantness. Soon, things were almost overwhelmingly unpleasant. It was almost like my awareness was swarming "me" with these unpleasant sensations like a beehive had just been shaken up. I was cool with it though, feeling relieved to just be more aware of them and not having some of the tension that seemed to accompany aversion to unpleasant sensations earlier.

So the tingling of sensation seems to be transience, and the unpleasantness of sensation seems to be unsatisfactoriness. Thinking about the nana of the three characteristics, I then looked into trying to find a self. This involved looking into sensations happening in my head. I found that emotions and thoughts could be found there, in an odd way. They were tingly like everything else, but they seemed to be locked deeper inside the head. I was trying to find self there, but then I started to see that even those emotions and thoughts were disappearing and reappearing from moment to moment. I knew from this that no self was resting within any of those sensations.

Next, I did something very hard to explain. Have you ever noticed how you can kinda make yourself shiver? I've been getting weird shivers from meditating, so I decided to evoke some of those shivers. It was weird, because when I'd do this, it would give me a feeling of the shiver drawing up from my body through the back of my neck, into my brain. My head would start to lean back, and my shoulders felt a bit tense. But it was cool, and I started realizing there was much more to it than just shivering. My eyes kinda started to spasm like they do when you're trying to hold them shut but can't seem to, but I was fine with my eyes being shut. It started to happen very rapidly, and the feeling started to get just... so intense. It felt like I was going through sleep paralysis (which I've been awake for from lucid dreaming experiments). It came in waves, but each was more intense, until finally, my head was tilted quite a ways back and my eyes were rapidly twitching. My breathing got fast and shallow, and it was hard to even worry about that, and I didn't worry about trying to gain control over it. I felt this really odd sense of pleasure in my neck and body being drawn into my head. It wasn't like a grinning pleasure though. Actually, the intensity almost made it scary, but I've read enough to know odd things can happen doing insight meditation, so I did my best to let it happen and keep a stable mind. It was dizzying, electric, almost sexual in an odd way, and powerful.

Each wave made it feel like it was getting closer and closer to the edge, till after a very intense wave, it seemed to continue but get more subtle and subtle. Then, I was left feeling as though after orgasm. It was this really chill, quite tingly afterglow feeling, like I had just had some odd orgasm in my brain. It was an ease at this point, and I mentally called off my effort and just sat and basked in the feeling, recollecting my poise. I found myself with my head tilted back, quick shallow breath, and various tensed muscles. I then chilled out and fixed all this. I felt as though in the arms of a lover after intense loving, except the feeling was more refined than sexual pleasure (even though it seemed oddly sexual), and I was not drained and exhausted. I felt acute and kinda empty, like a calm after a thunderstorm. Now, an hour or so later, I keep getting an odd dissociative-ish dizziness, where attention jumps around in my head and I kinda feel destabilized. It's almost nauseating, but not quite. Not necessarily unpleasant or pleasant. There's also a weird, edgy feeling to my perception after that experience. It's almost a feeling of being an alien freak or something. It's like I'm this odd being with blunted affect. It's like I'm tripping.

So, that's where I'm at. It was a breakthrough in my practice and I decided to stop lurking and post my experience. I feel like rapture really gets at that experience. It was so intense and... enrapturing. A very odd, tingling, flashing pleasure, like an ancient, refined and mystical spiritual pleasure lifting up into my head, in waves of growing intensity. Does this sound like the arising and passing away? I feel like my meditation yesterday touched on the knowledge of mind and body, the knowledge of cause and effect, and the 3 characteristics in the earlier part of my meditation where I began to see annoyance along with the tingles, and then tried to locate self but saw the things I thought to be self disappearing. So, following the map of insight given in Daniel's book, this would seem to put the arising and passing away next. Rapture also seems to be a description of the arising and passing away event. It was just... wow, so intense. That's a full experience, all the way. Does anyone see this as consistent with the map? Also, I must consider that I got close to A&P but didn't quite cross. It felt like a pressure was released though, and now that odd tingling tension of sorts is not so beehive-ish. It's like it's dissipating, like the band that was just marching and thumping all around me is now fading off into the horizon. Still the same band and song, but seeming to be farther and farther.

So first I seemed to feel the tingling (vibrations), which would be transience. This then led to the realization of how these things were really annoying and not really "doing it" for me, and kinda stinging in a way, like a swarm of many bees around me. Then, after eliminating aversion to perception of the "stings" of sensation and the annoyance of the sheer speed and quickness of sensation, I was able to separate the notion of "me" from these sensations, up to some emotion and thought. This makes me wonder... has anyone found that the three characteristics build on each other in this way? I've always been passionate about teaching and I feel like this may help someone progress if they know how to go about finding the three C's, and how an understanding of one can lead to the other, and how removing aversion of sensations can help clear up the three C's like it did for me.

It's just... so odd. I read about the practice of insight and the map and it all sounds like something happening to some intense monk locked away in a monastery. I've really only been doing insight type stuff on the short bus ride to school and haven't really been on the cushion besides yesterday and today. It just seems so nuts to consider that this stuff is actually happening to me, and that my experience is no longer just random mind crap and is consistent with the path of insight. I'm writing it now and thinking... Yeah, I think I'm really doing it. Enlightenment seems so possible, now that I'm feeling like I'm actually tracing the steps that have been laid out for me so neatly. It's also seeming as though you don't have to gain any new skill to do vipassana; you just have to start looking at a faster rate and not react to the feelings that sensations give you (which I suppose is to say, eliminating aversion). It's more like purifying and stopping the squirming. It's like devil's snare, where the tightness, helplessness, and frustration was due to my ignorance of my own futile struggling. The more I hold still, the looser it gets and the more I'm able to navigate this territory. It feels good to finally have touched this body of practice with results. I am now an initiate... heh.

So, there it is. This is a long read, but this seems to be a pretty active forum and I'd imagine a few of you might read and care to post. I've seen some very wise posters posting quite frequently, and I'd love to get some insight on my insight and maybe put this perspective into perspective, especially from someone who's been through the cycles of insight and has some familiarity with it. It's thrilling to have had these experiences yesterday and today, but it's cooool... it's not rushed and it's not even necessarily exciting. I'm satisfied in a very simple and subtle way with what has happened, and I'll continue to practice. I'll also continue to post. I have much to share and much to do.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off.
Answer
4/29/12 4:23 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
I just practiced for about an hour, maybe less. I've never really meditated by the clock or set up a system for determining how long. Actually, I kinda like to use previous meditation experience as my guideline. If something has happened in meditation that I can make happen again, I try to at least get there before I stop.

Anyways, I sped up perception by rapidly alternating between knees, and then let go of the reigns and let attention go from place to place. Everything got tingly like it always does. I had the same experience of eye twitching, shivers being drawn up into my head, flashing light, and all of this intermingled with sexual feelings of some sort coming in waves. However, this time it wasn't so intense, and it didn't feel so out of control. After this happened, some tension felt released and I sat and just calmed myself, feeling my whole being tingling. It was calm, like post orgasm chill out phase. Perhaps this is what is meant by tranquility? I like the feeling. It's as though I just worked hard to bust the vibrations, the vibrations cumulated in some odd kind of orgasm, and this left me tingling all over. Then, the intense feeling faded off into the horizon. This is just like last night's experience. However, this time, I kept going.

It wasn't really that eventful.

I just kinda sat and chilled, still watching attention go from place to place, although much slower. It was like rubbing two sticks together intensely, feeling the energy build up, and then seeing the fire ignite. This phase was like having lit the fire and just sitting and watching it. With this chilled out feeling, I felt much more relaxed and "tranquil". I then made it my task to find the feeling of calm and tranquility in my head. I could see that it too was a vibrating, tingling thing. It was much harder to find the tingling here, versus in the flesh. Thus, this seems to be the horizon of my practice: getting to the point where I can see the vibrations and tingling in restful and calm emotions and feelings.


Afterwards, everything seems tingly, and very chilled out. For some reason, I feel powerful after these things. There's a glass egg near me, and afterwards, I zeroed in on it with my attention and felt the vibrations on it. I felt for a moment as though I could increase the intensity of that attention and shatter it. Anyways, now I'm feeling really zoned out yet not drained. Post coital is the perfect description for the feeling, except I don't feel drained or like I've lost energy. I'm getting those odd feelings again, where awareness jumps around inside my head and makes me feel dizzy, as though my "self" is jumping from frame to frame rather than playing smoothly. It's very dissociative. I'd imagine this is a good sign of self being debunked.

I've noticed that sexual feelings are directly related to the shivers that go up my spine, the flashing lights, and the intense orgasmic moment that seems to happen. When I get the spine/cerebral shivers where things feel drawn up, I get sexual feelings down below, and when the feelings come down below, I find I can initiate the spine/cerebral shivers and flashing light. It makes me nervous about masturbating, since I worry that energy will leave. I'm not sure if it's a real concern or not.

As I was done meditating, I looked on my roof and saw bird poop. That made me think of the poop falling, and within a short time, I traced the poop falling to the bird, to the bird flying, to the egg, to bird sex, to bird sexual feelings. Cause and effect, huh...

This is going quite nicely. I like the "power up the speed of perception" then "release the reigns" approach, and it's working quite nicely for me. I'm also noticing how the process of my meditations are very cyclical.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off.
Answer
4/29/12 7:17 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
I just practiced for a half hour or so.

This was a little different. I started out with my speed up perception and let go of the reign method, but it felt like this happened fairly quick. I just jumped right into it. I got a few of the flashing lights, sexual energy feelings, and cerebral buzz things, but it was nothing like the intensity of the last two times. I couldn't seem to make it happen like I could before, and after I tried for a bit, it seemed to go away.

Then, I found myself in that calm, quiet and afterglow phase, except it wasn't so afterglow-ish since I hadn't had such an intense experience previous to it. So I basically started in the quiet, vibrations scattering phase after a few minutes. I investigated. Next, something new happened. I got this anxious, tight, adrenaline kind of feeling in my upper chest. I didn't seem to have any mental reaction to it; it was purely physical seeming. I sat and investigated the feeling until I began to feel it vibrate/tingle rather than remain solid. Not long after this, it seemed to go away.

Then, I started getting annoying body stuff. This was hurting and that was hurting and tingling was really annoying. This was much more thorough than what was going on before, and seemed to involve the whole of my body, rather than just a pain here or there. Switching awareness to my head and visually, it seemed as though there was a strong "strobing" effect. I seem to remember that somewhere in a description; I'll look into that after I post. It wasn't just the tingly, vibrating feeling. It was like my vision/awareness would strobe from up to down, fairly slowly. It wasn't extremely intense, but it seemed to involve the whole of my being, whereas before, the vibrations and tingling feelings were more or less only where my awareness rested. I suppose it seemed much more all encompassing and got at peripherals. Whereas tingling and vibration was happening only where I looked, now it felt like the whole of my experience was strobing from up to down. It's harder to find words for this. It seemed to subside, and I stopped practicing at this point.

Getting up from the meditation, I didn't feel so edgy/vibratory/buzzed/tingly. It was void of that energy. I also, for some reason, caught my reflection in the corner of my vision on the gloss of my guitar as I got up. It was startling in a way that I really don't think it should have been. Come to think of it, last night, when I got up from meditation and was laying in bed, there were voices outside and people slamming car doors, and these sparked feelings of adrenaline and made my heart start racing, like the feeling of a kid scared of the dark. Weird. I'm drawing a link between the startling feeling from those car doors slamming and voices, the reflection movement in my guitar startling me, and the feeling of adrenaline/anxiousness in my chest.

Obviously there are undertones of the nanas in these descriptions, namely chilled out and mellowed in the afterglow = dissolution, and adrenaline/startled feelings/tightness & anxiety in chest and throat = fear. I don't want to script myself, and I'm kinda trying to make a personal map based on how my meditations are growing and cycling through new experiences and containing the old. However, it seems that the map in MCTB and experiences from all over do coincide, which points to consistency in insight practice.

I'm trying to figure out if the discomfort and strobing feeling was just regression back into the nana of 3 C's, or whether or not it was the nana of misery. It was much more all encompassing than the feelings of annoyance I've gotten before, but since my hardcore vipassana experience have really only began yesterday, I also consider the possibility that I restarted the cycle of insight mid-meditation and experienced the nana of 3 C's more in depth. Next time I start, I'll try to investigate mind and body, cause and effect, then the 3 c's to see if my experience of the 3 c's is as intense as this new, more peripheral, strobing state. I'm not too fixated on this or worried though, as this seems to be unfolding fast, and it's clear that progress can be made as fast as you can investigate what seems solid at your new horizon of experience. That seems to be driving my progress, so I suppose I'll repeat for emphasis for others:

It's clear that progress can be made as fast as you can investigate what seems solid at your new horizon of experience.

Once I "bust it up into vibrations", any given experience in vipassana seems to give way to something new.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off.
Answer
4/29/12 9:47 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Thoughts about Dharma "doing" me now:

It seems things are much different now. I feel as though the vipassana style of "thinking", to put it in some term, is emerging outside of meditation constantly. I'll itch my leg, feel the burn of it, and feel a wave of tingles/vibrations run from that point like ripples in a pond. Or, I'll be "bored", looking for that next thing to do, and suddenly realize that this is just not right in some way, and looking closer, recognize it as aversion to seeing how I'm not really in the situation and how the situation doesn't satisfy. Also, the tingles of things (including vision) are becoming striking. Everything is quite dreamlike. This could be from the relatively intense and frequent practice I've been doing. I feel very blunted in affect as well. It isn't bad; it's just very different from feeling in a constant state of perpetual looking for some new scenario or pleasure to get into, or having the subtle notion of trying to uphold an emotion or state. I'm sure subtler yet things remain. Pleasures seem to be limited to whatever sense they immediately evoke, such as taste buds, sexual pleasure, pleasure of the ear, or otherwise. They don't seem to spark anything up in my head like they normally do. This makes me feel as though I can practice wherever I am.

I'm gonna go sit now. I'll post it up if I encounter anything new or different. I'd like to keep my practice log limited to new experiences, things that confuse me or give me the desire to seek confirmation, or otherwise seem significant. I'd rather not post the boring, same ol' tingles and pains unless I think they contain some new knowledge.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW!)
Answer
4/30/12 2:25 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
[A Day of Solid, Consistent Practice

So here I am.

I passed the A&P two days ago, I'm pretty sure. I practiced last night before bed, and when I woke up, I found my mind to be like a (relatively) blank slate, as though practice had not stopped since going to bed. In this state, for some reason, I almost immediately made the resolution to practice hard all day even throughout school. This involves noting, cycling between points of focus to speed up perception, and more recently, trying to find the point in my head which is interpreting raw sensations and turning them into a story. Many signs point to this being the dark night. For one, there's an empty, raw and extremely honest and powerless feeling I have. It's like the weird, zoned out feeling you get when you have the flu or something. It almost feels a bit like a fever. It isn't that I'm lethargic or without energy though. It's very clear and lucid, like a dream.

Anyways, on to details of practice.

I am associating the very chilled out, empty feeling with dissolution, although the nanas seem to be like fractals where the same weird "feelings" seem to carry over into other nanas, with the perception of these as relating to vibrations, suffering, and no-self becoming clearer and clearer. Throughout the practice, I seem to be cycling through certain feelings. From this calm, I enter into a phase where my chest (upper) begins to tingle and contain an anxious/nervous/adrenal energy. As far as I'm aware, up in my head, I don't seem to get fearful or nervous. It's mostly located just in my upper chest. Then, it kinda moves up into my throat, like a kind of tight feeling. This is accompanied with lots of itches and discomforts all over my body, although they are vibratory, and strangely not at all "irritating" in the conventional way. It's like the waves begin to grow in size and crash against each other in my body, versus what seems to be dissolution, where the daylight sky is clouded and the waters are calm in an eerie way.

So there is the sense of everything vibrating all over, and after awhile, all the itches and tingles and unpleasant sensations seem to appear as pure vibrations. It gets to the point where it's a full-fledged tingle fest in my field of experience. It's like the peak of the storm.

I need to add a thought I'm having now, to better explain things. Since this practice has really only began a few days ago, I've not had the feeling of these periods being spread out over a long period of time. Actually, they seem to be flying by quickly as I apply myself in ways conducive to momentous and pliable practice. So, I feel like I don't have time to feel as though these things have sank in or be emotionally affected. It just seems like meditation practice, except now it's through the whole day. I'd imagine that if I walked away from it and tried to go back to living in solidity and not constantly applying dharma awareness, these nanas would throw my life off and make me feel edgy. There is a feeling of safety though, having suddenly brought about these things by my own applied effort, and not having experience much anything like this before. So I find this to be a safety net, as in practice you are strictly observing, and not getting lost in content. "My life" is always content, but from this strict vipassana mindset, it's all just practice and the things on the way to arhatship.

With that said, let's continue with the progress of vibes. So now it's a full-fledged tingle fest, a storm peaking out. I think to myself that this would be a terrible thing to be feeling constantly through life, and also feel in awe that I could have been alive all these times and not have realized what a raging storm of vibrations experience now seems to be. This naturally leads to the thought that merely seeing this full storm raging isn't the end of things, and that surely there's distance to be covered between this storm of vibes and arhatship. This then becomes a calm and collected intent on going further, whatever that is. It isn't a wish for the vibes to go away or anything, as I'm keeping a fairly strict perspective on this as I consider feelings to be just more sensations to place awareness on. However, what it does result in is a feeling of calm amidst all these vibes. I think of that story of Jesus on a boat when the storm starts going nuts, and his disciples start tripping out and panicking. Jesus, being the stud of a pro he is, doesn't get worried and refutes them for even being panicked, asking if they don't have any faith. He then, still being the stud of a pro he is, calms the storm.

Anyways, that is what seemed to have happened. I was leaving class, walking across campus in this super-vibes, everything tingling, jarring, intense state, while remaining objective and not feeling very shaken inside the head. After a moment, I just sat down, with this whirlwind of experience all around me. I closed my eyes and continued to practice more strongly, now that I was sitting in one place. Even through all the tingles and flashes and cascading waves, there was a peace. I couldn't really seem to find where it was though. I started looking inside my head, which seemed to be the hardest place to turn to tingles. The tingles were there, but that calm something was buried beneath it all, I could tell. The storm of vibes made it easy to tell that I wasn't part of the storm, since I, on the level I can discern deepest, didn't seem to be jarred around like everything else. This was good feeling.

I sat again later, and just dealt with the vibe storm. At no point have I really panicked or fretted about the changes that have occurred in the past few days of beginning my practice, and I haven't yet. There was, however, a deeper frustration with not knowing where that deep, calm "me" was that I couldn't perceive and bust into vibrations. I busted the frustration into vibes. Then, I kinda eased up on it all, remembering what I've read about surrender. The storm was still happening and perception was still fast, but I wasn't trying so hard to penetrate it. It was like I had just gone limp, rather than any kind of struggle or attempt to rescue or go deeper into the storm.

Then, as I was waiting for the bus, I ran into friends and began to chat and such. It's just simply harder to stay as present as when I'm just sitting, not being socially engaged. I noticed all throughout today that social interaction has no awkwardness, no edginess, and no self-consciousness that it usually does. It felt so good for this to be this way. It was like I could say and articulate things quite well, and not feel like I was holding up some face.

Anyways, as we were walking from one bus to the next bus, I tuned back in to the practice. The tingles were definitely still there, but they were subdued and not so chaotic. I'm not sure if by stopping practice, I had regressed in the cycle or what, but things were just peaceful. I was very calm, and felt wise. It was like the sun was out again. I still felt that dreamlike, flu-like quality, and things were still deconstructing and breaking into vibrations right away when I looked, but there was a "so what?" quality to this. It was just peace. It was okay. It was a mood that was so not good and so not bad that I felt so still. It was like the waves of vibrations was still going on, but I had floated up into the sky where even ten foot waves were simply beneath me.

This sounds like equanimity to me, and I feel suddenly like my progress knows no limits. I feel like as long as I keep breaking content down into sensations and keep tracing where I am on the map, I can navigate all the way to arhatship. And that is indeed my plan. Practice feels very easy and profound. Pain, itches, and highly unpleasant sensations seem like gold right now and are not at all painful, itchy, or at all unpleasant. They're a golden opportunity for me to look into the fact that something inside of me is "knowing" these sensations to be painful or itchy or unpleasant. But if I'm not affected by them and don't care to relieve these feelings, what is it that is knowing these feelings to be painful or itchy or unpleasant? Hmm...

I honestly didn't expect practice to go by so fast. Part of this is probably from the general feeling people get when they think of monks training for decades and retreating to solitude for life and being extremely strict and particular about every minuscule aspect of not only practice, but how difficult it should be. This is a breeze though. Even the unpleasant things are a breeze. Knowing that you can immediately deconstruct any thing you perceive is extremely empowering, and allows me to either deal with the sensations as they are, or if that fails, go deeper to see what it is in my head or wherever that is receiving these sensations.

There's a feeling to all of this, as though I'm about to leave. It feels like I'm packing up my bags and disconnecting. Actually, it feels like things are all going in the direction of up. It feels like the train is going upwards through my body, and all the vibes are moving in that general direction, being activated in that direction, and breaking out or something. Dunno. It's hard to say and it's not really something to be hung up on. But then again, in this state, I can analyze things including content to a large extent and it's not debasing or contrary to practice. Or, I can sit and just be empty as these things occur and watch without much effort, and that is also cool. I really do feel like this is equanimity.

I'm gonna sit for a bit. I'd love some feedback on this one.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
4/30/12 3:31 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
I don't post too much over here, more over at KFD but, this all sounds like A&P phenomenon to me.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
4/30/12 3:46 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
It's all sounding quite natural and positive, but I'd be wary of self-diagnosis when you're not familiar with the maps.

From your descriptions, I'd say you're in Dissolution and not Equanimity yet. In your sits, you're likely to cycle from 1st to 11th nana until you land stream entry so, while you might be hitting that general territory, it hasn't become the perceptual baseline. This is worth knowing as it's easy to become complacent, however given that your practice seems strong and you're clearly determined I can't see that being an issue as long as you're willing to thoroughly investigate whatever arises.

While progress can be made relatively quickly, given enough precise and dedicated practice, it doesn't help to go hell for leather all the time 'cause you miss the finer points; the territory traversed has so many subtleties and things which are easy to miss, things that could, in the long run, mean the difference between Path and cycling for another six months. Also, your practice is very new and all manner of events which appear mind blowing will actually become fairly normal over time. Don't get ahead of yourself, it's not worth it.

Those of us on here who claim 4th path, and particularly those who may seem to have done it in a relatively short time, have generally come to this with a long history of practice in various meditative techniques and have, like yourself, been naturally inclined towards insight practice. Don't assume that you're going to coast it and hit Arahat within the year, it's not to say that you can't but, based on my own experience and that of others on here, it's unlikely as the insights develop and deeper over time. One of the problems with having crossed the A&P is that you can get a bit carried away, the confidence and certainty you're experiencing just now may change considerably in the coming weeks but this is where a strong practice routine comes in handy.

Take it easy, go with whatever arises and don't fight or try to change anything.

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4/30/12 3:50 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
OK, so Tommy said it way more eloquently than myself. emoticon Easy to get carried away with all of the energy from crossing the A&P. Things will settle, but keep your momentum and enthusiasm, no matter what comes up.

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4/30/12 5:12 PM as a reply to Russell ..
Well, I just sat and tried to remove myself from all the intense vibrations, generally trying to quiet it all down and, in a way... concentrate. That isn't to say that it was a concentration practice, but basically, I was trying to gather myself, as I've heard you ought to "unify it all", letting yourself ease into all the vibrations. The pains and aches and itches started to get very intense at this point.

Interestingly enough, after I let go and what I thought to be the removal of aversion to these things, I started to get an INTENSE shaking. The last experience I had that I thought was A&P was limited mostly to upper body/neck/head. However, this one was a strong, steady, and intense shaking in my base at first. It came in waves, and then finally, as I really let it all go, the shaking really overcame me and it was a rapture much like the last one, except 10 times more intense. It lasted for about a minute, rather than just a short blip. I didn't really know what happened. I was looking for path, thinking that was where I was, but this was... A&P? I'm not sure. This was so, so overwhelming though. My whole spine was just raw and sore after this.

However, there are some interesting after effects. Everything was so bright afterwards. There was this romantic glow afterwards, like it was some kind of blurred yet sharpened, bright reality. It was so overwhelming. Details are extremely clear. I'm also extremely happy!

But, this begs the question... was this the true A&P event? I mean... I guess time will tell. But this time, it felt like such a full rapture. Overwhelming. Just... blown away. Can raptures happen after A&P? Do they tend to be more intense after? Or what? I'm not really sure about this one. In the dark. Further practice will clear it up. So will time. At least, that's what I think. I'm gonna chill for the rest of the day and see what happens.

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4/30/12 6:21 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Well, I just sat and tried to remove myself from all the intense vibrations, generally trying to quiet it all down and, in a way... concentrate. That isn't to say that it was a concentration practice, but basically, I was trying to gather myself, as I've heard you ought to "unify it all", letting yourself ease into all the vibrations. The pains and aches and itches started to get very intense at this point.

Don't "remove" yourself from anything, go with the sensations that arise 'cause they're going to come up whether you like it or not. There's a balance involved between concentration and insight so doing what feels natural here doesn't hurt, particularly if you're noticing uncomfortable or unpleasant sensations as being able to just accept and process what's being perceived is where the good stuff is. The thing about "unify it all" may not be appropriate for your current stage, which appears to be the earlier stages of Dark Night; this is 3rd jhana territory and the focus of attention is very much on the periphery, see what happens if you just let your focus relax and naturally observe what's happening towards the edge of your attention.

Interestingly enough, after I let go and what I thought to be the removal of aversion to these things, I started to get an INTENSE shaking. The last experience I had that I thought was A&P was limited mostly to upper body/neck/head. However, this one was a strong, steady, and intense shaking in my base at first. It came in waves, and then finally, as I really let it all go, the shaking really overcame me and it was a rapture much like the last one, except 10 times more intense. It lasted for about a minute, rather than just a short blip. I didn't really know what happened. I was looking for path, thinking that was where I was, but this was... A&P? I'm not sure. This was so, so overwhelming though. My whole spine was just raw and sore after this.

As I mentioned in another reply to you, you'll cycle through the ñanas up to Equanimity and back until you hit Path so what you've described is just a standard progression. The shaking and raptures are A&P-related, they're commonly called kriyas and are pretty typical. Relax. Sit with that and see if you can catch them as they arise, stay with them until they pass and watch how they constantly change. Look at what sorts of mental states arises, where attention moves, how it happens, basically just pay attention and notice what's happening. I've been left feeling as though I've just had the shit kicked out of me after a sit, purely due to the intensity of that shaking, so just remember that it's all par for the course.

However, there are some interesting after effects. Everything was so bright afterwards. There was this romantic glow afterwards, like it was some kind of blurred yet sharpened, bright reality. It was so overwhelming. Details are extremely clear. I'm also extremely happy!

Strong practice cleans up perception in the most exquisite of ways...but don't get complacent 'cause it's all just fodder for insight. Enjoy it, by all means, but don't cling to any phenomena or experience whatsoever. Also, sometimes the eyes can become very sensitive to light which may go some way to explaining, in non-meditation terms, what you're noticing. Take your time, don't rush or you'll miss it. emoticon

But, this begs the question... was this the true A&P event?

Maybe, but going by your initial posts and descriptions of what occurred before I'd say it's more likely to have been cycling-related. Again, don't get hung up on the terminological or map-related stuff; notice it and move on.

I mean... I guess time will tell.

Indeed.

But this time, it felt like such a full rapture. Overwhelming. Just... blown away.

Note it. Move on.

Something else worth looking into is what, for you, constitutes a "full rapture"?
On what would you base such a comparison, other than more transient mental phenomena in the form of a memory?
What sensations make up a "full rapture" or a not-"full rapture" and how are they any different to any other sensation?
Can you find a self in them?
Are they permanent?
Are they satisfying to cling to or avoid?

Can raptures happen after A&P?

Yes.

Do they tend to be more intense after?

Variable depending on the practitioner. Note it. Move on.

Or what? I'm not really sure about this one.

That right there is the way you want to be looking at things: You don't need to know what's going to happen next, all you can possibly ever investigate is what's happening now. What's gone before only exists as a memory, you're here right now and this is where you'll gain insight. Stay curious.

Questions?

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4/30/12 11:04 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Thanks. I reread that a few times. Your advice sounds very helpful and thorough. It's nice to know there's such a body of support related to developments of meditation. There's quite a "down the rabbit hole" feeling in this, and it's nice to know that others who have navigated this territory are there to offer support. There is a very grateful feeling because of this!

A few questions...

Also, sometimes the eyes can become very sensitive to light which may go some way to explaining, in non-meditation terms, what you're noticing.


Could you explain what you mean by this?

I understand that maps only go so far and that the nature of experience firsthand in observing phenomenon is the true teacher. However, I've been practicing using maps of insight to help give myself clues on how to tweak practice, with a possible direction to get to. This seems to be helping me find progress, and offering positive reinforcement as I get an idea of experiences I have and how they may be related to insights that others have noticed. This also seems to help by giving me many ideas to play around with, almost like different study guides to the metaphorical texts I'm studying. It's like piano for me. As a pianist and composer, the styles and personal realizations of the laws of harmony by great composers gone by is of great value to me and I study them extensively. They even shape the way in which I build my own sense of harmony and style, and cue me in on what seem to be solid laws of harmony. However, in the end, it was really only my ears listening, my heart feeling, and my construction and study that led to my own personal development in harmony and compositional style.

With that being said, could you explain cycling? How exactly does this work? Is the nana of re-observation a way of simply saying, generally, people cycle through the nanas of dukkha after crossing the A&P? Do people seem to start at mind and body and work up from there, get to a peak, and then recede, each time attempting to get farther? I've noticed that many times, feelings come in waves, and seem to be carving out cycles of some sort. There's a sort of predictability to the chest feeling leading to an overall state of more waves all over to a shift to what's in my head, which is useful, since it makes me feel like I'm learning to traverse this practice. I understand that whatever phenomenon is present is the one that is important, but my experience thus far makes me feel good about using the maps to look at my experience and modify my applied effort in different ways to feel my way around.

I've calmed down quite a bit since earlier and have just been chilling with a friend today.

I'm thinking of testing out the jhanas tonight. I have a question about that too. I'd imagine once I have a well worn and navigated
"map" of my own experience, using other maps will be less necessary. But there is convenience in the functionality of maps and their terminology, and the way this allows for communication. Anyways, I read about 20 strata of mind on Kenneth's website. I've also read a bit about the idea of vipassana jhanas. What are your takes on the idea that jhanas are stable strata where the mind can rest? This seems reasonable to me; sometimes the feeling I get in practice is cool, calm, collected, and more stable seeming, in contrast to chaotic, shaking, edgy, and neurotic. I've read about how doing jhanas can help sharpen concentration and increase some kind of depth/awareness aspect to vipassana. I used to try jhana for about a month, but I just didn't seem to make much progress. I believe this was due to not realizing how unpleasant sensations aren't faults and the unrealistic attempt on some level to deny their existence and "jhana them out". I think it's good I started vipassana because not only have I generally felt like I've done something useful, but I also feel like my mental faculties are expanding. For me, this is the difference between doing scales and mechanical exercises vs. learning a piece built from a little of this and a little of that. If you just jump into the piece with at least somewhat moderate faculties, you can learn the techniques and mechanical skill while applying them to the real task of solving and learning the piece. I suspect some degree of similarity between jhana and vipassana.

I wonder, if there is some truth to strata of mind and the jhanas being stable nanas, and insight practice causing you to cycle through experienced territory, then might I be able to surf the cycle till I hit a spot that feels nice, chill out my awareness to not be so electric and deconstructing, and thus find my way to jhana. I wonder if it would be better to just start from scratch, trying to do jhana straight from the sit without using my vipassana style practice. I wonder if there is considerable in-between territory. These are questions I like to ask in order to have different directions to probe as I try to solve problems and go in new directions. You have excellent advice for vipassana, but what would you say about jhana? And in regards to practice of jhana while pursuing the practice of vipassana? The use of jhana with vipassana? How the two relate?

I suppose that's a lot of things to ask at once, but I'm just letting my curiosity flow. If my questions or writing at all leads to information that can be of benefit, then it is worth it to ask, even if some questions are not phrased in a good way, if some experiences are not dealt with correctly, or if some confusion happens in trying to figure it all out and communicate it. Experience seems to show me that exercising curiosity and using communication to connect to others and their experiences is an excellent way to learn and investigate.


Thanks again for your thorough help. I'll keep at this!

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5/1/12 4:25 AM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Anytime! As long as it's useful to you, I'm happy with that.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

I should really have explained that a bit better; what I meant was that through sitting with your eyes closed and in a concentrated state, your eyes are likely to become more sensitive to the light when you get up from your practice. Basically it's the same as sitting in a darkened room then going outside. The reason I mentioned it is because the visual clarity you're noticing after a sit could well be down to something as simple as this, rather than being related to the meditation itself. I just like to suggest more than one possibility 'cause, particularly in the early stages of practice and even more so after the A&P Event itself, it's easy to try to manipulate your experience, consciously or unconsciously, to fit your expectations.

However, I've been practicing using maps of insight to help give myself clues on how to tweak practice, with a possible direction to get to. This seems to be helping me find progress, and offering positive reinforcement as I get an idea of experiences I have and how they may be related to insights that others have noticed.

That's fine, conceptual maps are tools; thinking of them in the same way you'd think of a road map is useful, they're a guide through the general territory but they can't ever contain all of the possible experiences and idiosyncratic variations of how this stuff happens. Sometimes it's worth taking the scenic route from time to time, explore the landscape and have fun with it.

It's like piano for me. As a pianist and composer, the styles and personal realizations of the laws of harmony by great composers gone by is of great value to me and I study them extensively. They even shape the way in which I build my own sense of harmony and style, and cue me in on what seem to be solid laws of harmony. However, in the end, it was really only my ears listening, my heart feeling, and my construction and study that led to my own personal development in harmony and compositional style.

I like the way you describe this, it's useful to be able to express these things in your own metaphors as they're the symbolic representations of your own experiences. You're also talking about a very useful insight into this here, you're seeing how those "what seem to be solid laws of harmony" are actually just another conceptual overlay to assist in understanding what you're working with. You're aware that, when you remove all of the ideas and concepts, you're just left with the pure sensate experience of the fingers dancing over the keys, the ears receiving the auditory vibrations and your own emotional reaction to the music. This is where the insight is: In the ever-changing interplay of the six sense doors.

With that being said, could you explain cycling? How exactly does this work? Is the nana of re-observation a way of simply saying, generally, people cycle through the nanas of dukkha after crossing the A&P? Do people seem to start at mind and body and work up from there, get to a peak, and then recede, each time attempting to get farther?

Cycling is exactly what it sounds like - You go 'round in circles over and over, but this is part of the process and leads to deeper insights as you repeatedly investigate, what appears to be, the same territory. Until you hit 1st path, you'll cycle from Mind & Body up to Equanimity, if your practice is strong enough at least; after 1st path, and until you start the cycle towards 2nd path, you'll start each sit at the A&P and should progress up to Fruition in each sit.

Your perceptual baseline will continually change with your practice, you'll progress through each insight stage as part of a greater cycle but you'll also cycle through them during a sit. It's not that complicated but it's something that'll become clearer as your practice develops. You're basically right when you say that people "get to a peak, and then recede", the point to which you recede will depend on where you're at within the cycle itself.

I'd imagine once I have a well worn and navigated "map" of my own experience, using other maps will be less necessary. But there is convenience in the functionality of maps and their terminology, and the way this allows for communication.

Aye, that's generally the case. It's just useful to have a set of mutually understandable terms with which to communicate 'cause this stuff is sometimes so subtle and almost imperceptible that it helps to be able to describe it in phenomenological detail.

Anyways, I read about 20 strata of mind on Kenneth's website. I've also read a bit about the idea of vipassana jhanas. What are your takes on the idea that jhanas are stable strata where the mind can rest? This seems reasonable to me; sometimes the feeling I get in practice is cool, calm, collected, and more stable seeming, in contrast to chaotic, shaking, edgy, and neurotic.

It's a useful way to describe them, definitely. This is something that'll become clearer with practice too.

I used to try jhana for about a month, but I just didn't seem to make much progress. I believe this was due to not realizing how unpleasant sensations aren't faults and the unrealistic attempt on some level to deny their existence and "jhana them out".

It's more likely to have been down to not having a good technique, when you're practicing samatha you're fixing attention on one object as opposed to vipassana where you're flitting from one object to the next. You'll encounter jhanic territory via vipassana and vice-versa, they're not mutually exclusive practices.

For me, this is the difference between doing scales and mechanical exercises vs. learning a piece built from a little of this and a little of that. If you just jump into the piece with at least somewhat moderate faculties, you can learn the techniques and mechanical skill while applying them to the real task of solving and learning the piece. I suspect some degree of similarity between jhana and vipassana.

Nicely put. The distinction between vipassana and samatha isn't present in the original Pali texts, in practice you'll see why this is the case. It's a useful distinction though, at least for the moment because it'll allow you to develop both skills seperately before being able to combine them.

I wonder, if there is some truth to strata of mind and the jhanas being stable nanas, and insight practice causing you to cycle through experienced territory, then might I be able to surf the cycle till I hit a spot that feels nice, chill out my awareness to not be so electric and deconstructing, and thus find my way to jhana.

Again, keep in mind that descriptions like "strata of mind" and "stable ñanas" are just more labels, more conceptual overlay so don't get caught up in the theoretical stuff. It doesn't generally happen in the way you describe, what you're saying sounds more like insight practice as you're noticing specific details; if you want to practice jhana, do breath counting or use a kasina object like a plain coloured bowl.

I wonder if it would be better to just start from scratch, trying to do jhana straight from the sit without using my vipassana style practice. I wonder if there is considerable in-between territory.

At first it's definitely worth practicing the two seperately, even using the first half of your sit to practice jhana before moving onto insight practice is worthwhile. Concentration practice calms the mind and temporarily suppresses the hindrances. There is no in-between territory really, it's a matter of (what seems to be) stability vs. investigation which leads to the deconstruction of that perceived stability.

You have excellent advice for vipassana, but what would you say about jhana? And in regards to practice of jhana while pursuing the practice of vipassana? The use of jhana with vipassana? How the two relate?

Jhana can be very straightforward, it just takes practice and knowing what it is that you're looking for. Some people think that a jhana is going to be some spectacular state of bliss and awesomeness, which it can be, but it's not usually the case until your practice improves. Remember that there isn't really a distinction between samatha and vipassana, it's just convenient to practice them as if there were so that you can develop your skills in both. In terms of practice advice:

1. Breath counting - Count the breath in cycles of 10 (with the whole inhale/exhale cycle being counted as "1") and see how long you can stay with the entire breath for. This is the most basic but effective technique I've ever used.

2. Kasinas - Basically these are just an external object on which you focus your attention; get yourself a plain bowl, or cut out a card circle or something like that, just a simple geometric shape to focus on. Sit down with the object about arms length in front of you and gaze at it, it will move around, change colour and do all sorts of wacky shit but just stay with the object regardless.

I'll post some links at the bottom to some other pieces that I, or some of the other folks on here, have written about this 'cause it's not as difficult as it can seem.

I suppose that's a lot of things to ask at once, but I'm just letting my curiosity flow. If my questions or writing at all leads to information that can be of benefit, then it is worth it to ask, even if some questions are not phrased in a good way, if some experiences are not dealt with correctly, or if some confusion happens in trying to figure it all out and communicate it. Experience seems to show me that exercising curiosity and using communication to connect to others and their experiences is an excellent way to learn and investigate.

It's cool, I'd rather you got the advice you needed than have you spinning in circles not knowing how to practice best. We're all in this together anyway, there's a wealth of information on here and a lot of strong practitioners from various styles so ask away and you'll, more than likely, get the answers you're looking for.

Check out these links in the meantime and see if there's anything of use to you:

The Hamilton Project - This is one of the best resources for practical advice and techniques, it's mainly written by Nikolai from on here but he really knows his stuff and it's worth bookmarking.
Interactive Buddha - Daniel's website which is also full of great info and advice.
Down to Earth Dharma - An article I wrote on "access concentration" which may be of use, I don't have a lot of stuff on this blog yet but I'll hopefully get more stuff up in the coming months.

That's a few I've got bookmarked here but I'll see if there's anything else I can suggest.

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5/1/12 3:22 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Thanks again!

I've actually happened upon your article before! I'll poke around the other stuff some more.

Today is pretty mild compared to yesterday. Things feel more "normal" than they did yesterday, but with subtle differences. Sensations seem to be more broad and cover larger areas, whereas before they seemed more zeroed in. There's also this odd thing I keep running into where I'll get sensations from up in the back of my head, almost from behind my body. This seems to be happening when I zone out. Zoning out also seems to be happening a lot, but this could just be from how tired I feel today. Motivation is definitely not as strong, but whenever I feel tingles or such, it prompts me to investigate and do a little noting. It doesn't feel so momentous like yesterday, but it's still on the burner.

I just did a formal sit, starting with vipassana. It seemed so mild and chill. It wasn't really hard to tune into things, but like I said, sensations seemed to be more spread out over larger areas. I have no interpretation for this; it is what it is. Or, if I wanna sound studious, it was what it was, and then utterly vanished. Haha. I've been poking around the threads and I see how silly people sound sometimes when they get so into being strictly dogmatic, or dhar-matic, automatically, that they miss intent behind messages, chastise for wrong views ("you said "I'm going to work"! There is no I! You can't say that! Ahhhh!"), or in general sound like they aren't really interested in the very simple and down to earth idea of people just trying to learn a skill and communicate as humans. I might have been like that a bit before I read Ingram's book and realized how closed-minded we can be to things we think are serious business. I think to myself, some people seem to just like the idea of being in a holy, new age community, rooting themselves to that idea. But this is so mobile, so dynamic. Sure, it's a community on some level, but as far as the primary purpose, it isn't really a community; it's a commute.

Tangent. Hehe.

Anyways, it was really chill and calm. I thought I might try some concentration practice on breath. I kept getting distracted, just like before I started vipassana. However, when I did get distracted, the realization of this came within seconds, and there was a markedly detached feeling towards this. Some people yell at their kids for being kids, despair at their kids acting like kids, and do things to make their kids adults while they still mysteriously remain kids. But kids will grow up, and it's just nature for them to be kids. I felt somewhat like that when the mind would wander. There was also a feeling of no continuity of moment, as the distracted moment was just a moment that I happened to see with my attention. It didn't seem tied to the last, or like the concentration had gone bad. It just seemed like binary. Things were either this or that. Concentration was there or not there. I s'pose that's the vipassana flavor. Having this detached and nonchalant feeling towards it prevented feelings of frustration from arising or getting any good grip on me, which is good since I used to practice concentration and just practice in frustration and walk away with that feeling. This seems to help me. I don't need to turn "me" into some concentrated dude, I just need to look at the frames I've previously been busting apart and see what they're doing altogether and how they appear. Maybe. Of course, this is just speculation from my experience thus far.

I was thinking about the past today. On car rides, I always used to watch the dotted lines in the road go by, tapping my finger whenever they passed some sort of visual boundary like the car frame. It got easy, so eventually I added in trees, other cars on the other side of the road, poles, etc. and eventually just did it with my mind. Maybe this could explain how I somehow found my way to a practice which is not all too different.

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5/1/12 5:04 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
By the way, do you have a practice log? Where do you find yourself as far as attainment?

More ramblings, as this seems the best place to do it.

I've taken mushrooms a few times before. One such experience, perhaps the most real, was this:

I was in my friends house and immediately, things just shifted in perception. They were very edgy, nerve-wracking, and neurotic, in an exciting way. Eventually, the experience became so complicated, yet perception felt very clear and I felt like I was doing work. I'm pretty sure I just sat for a good hour or more. The first thing that really happens is uncontrollable shivers. These are almost rapture-like, now that I have an actual, intentional meditation-induced rapture to compare it to. Isn't laughter a rapture of sorts? Yawning? Shivering? Crying? Anyways, shivers and an immense cold overcame me, along with those neurotic, edgy feelings. Eventually, my mind got to the point where I just "knew" the police knew and were already arresting my parents and on their way to come get me. The fear was intense and so real. I knew that this wasn't ultimate reality though. My logical brain knew that this just simply wasn't possible due to my own isolated and secret change in chemistry.

However, it was still intensely real. Although all these things were happening, the rational mind was still working, so I was never just tripping out stupidly, seeing these things as absolutely true. I knew no cops were coming. But the feeling... Just so nerve-wracking. Almost straight panic. Staring out the window, just waiting for the cops, even as my rational brain somehow still knew perfectly well that I was safe. It was just the feeling. And that there is separation of mind of mind and body, I think. I think psychedelics should only be taken by those who can keep anchored in rationality while experiencing what is happening without being knocked out of rationale. I realized how odd it was for the paranoia to be there even with me, the rational dude somewhere inside, perfectly separate from the fear. Then, the focus became this: how is it that I can harbor these intense feelings of paranoia and fear and yet still see them from a different, rational, safe place? How incredibly painful of a question that was, and to be living, embodied in that very contradiction. I wanted so badly for that contradiction to be resolved. But still, there was immense peace in somehow being able to separate some fuzzy "me" from all the fear and questions and all that. It was my refuge as I navigated the stormy waters. I felt like I kinda locked on to the contradiction, and my awareness seemed to shift from the paranoia itself, to the relationship between the paranoia and the self that didn't experience the paranoia, to the contradiction, to the fact that I was stuck there even aware of it all.

So, eventually, this paranoia subsided, and at the same time as the shivers. I was wrapped in a blanket, shivering my whole soul out, but then a point came where the shivers were suddenly gone, along with the paranoia. I shed the blanket, as if arising from the terror. How liberating! I felt the fire from the skin on my body. Then, it was bodily stuff. How odd, these hands. How odd, these feelings. How strange and alien. How separate, from the one analyzing them. How disgusting and lumpy. How comical it was as well, to see this and only not be overcome by it by seeing it as it was. It was like a big joke. So funny, that moments ago that my lump of self was consumed by this odd, immense paranoia. I was now just fine. Totally just fine! Amazingly just fine! I had moved on. Now I was just sitting, still as a tree, branches swaying in the wind, but rooted firmly. I saw the good sensations just like the bad. There was a peace greater than any paranoia or terror that could strike, greater than any disgust in my contradictory embodiment of that unshaken self connected to a myriad of endless storms coming from horizon to horizon. It made me laugh, but the peace was so much deeper than even a laugh, deeper than a smile, deeper than even the content itself.

The carpet was a twisting, dancing mural of life, and the cat and all my friends were these other beings attached to the dancing mural, twisting and going from here to there. Even when looking down, my body was twisting and dancing with this mural. Even my feelings, coming and going, were connected to it. But me? I was just separate. Unshakable. This was the ultimate feeling. It was a feeling without feeling. It was a feeling that made me feel like I could look at the mural and see right back to my birth, and see right up to my death. It made me feel like death was already there, like birth was already there. Birth and death were dancing, like tongues of flames licking at everything. Nothing in my perception seemed to escape being consumed. Nothing except whatever I thought was the peaceful, radiant, brilliant me. I just soaked it in. I felt as though a glowing, radiant Buddha, just sitting and glowing, amidst the ever changing, dancing mural of life. I had won this. It wasn't just some drug thing. Several experiences came to me and went, as teachers. They were really just birth and death, dancing together and leading me on to where I had gotten. I had remained unshaken through the shaken, calm through the paranoia, high during the low, low during the high, left during the right, right during the left, dead during the life, and alive throughout the death. I hadn't turned away, logged out, checked out, ran away, or let myself be scared. I had remained studious and strong like a mountain. To this day, I still vividly get the image in my mind of a Buddha I know is me, sitting there with that feeling, amidst all sorts of odd, twisting and turning vibrations and beams of light. It is attached to some kind of significance. Ingram talks about a dharmic gravity that pulls you into the center, and this image resonates strongly with that. If I smoke or drink or get into trouble, or when I'm in a bad mood, or even just whenever, that image comes to mind and leaves a powerful feeling behind.

Anyways, after that peak of clarity, things tapered off and seemed to get more normal, as I began to move, use the restroom, talk to friends, etc. Later, the same paranoia happened, with the same general pattern of thought playing out. Eventually, instead of thinking the police were going to come, I thought I was going to die right then and there. I laid down, as it was late, and wrapped up inside my blanket, and just said, so be it. It was again peaceful, and I went to sleep.

When I had that last rapture yesterday, that radiant image unexpectedly came to mind very strongly for just a moment, and sorta faded off, leaving what seemed like a fractal of infinite auras, like those weird egg-women that each contain a smaller one that can in turn be opened.

Another interesting thing. Another time when I had taken mushrooms with my friend in the forest, it got to the point where he didn't seem much different than me. Looking at his face, it almost seemed like he was me. I convinced myself that there really wasn't much of a difference. Interestingly enough, since starting practice, this effect has happened to some extent, first with him, then with lots of people. Actually, lots of things seem to be happening as they did when I was having mushroom experiences. I've even seen the floor doing the weird twirl thing to a subtle extent at times. It's interesting. Mushrooms are indeed special, and a tool for those who wish to see inside.

Wow, that was a lot of writing. I find that when I write things out, things become clear when reading them. It's quite clear that mushrooms lead to insight. I didn't know anything about Buddhism at the time of that experience. However, looking back at that golden moment of radiance and peace separate from what were confusing dualities, it sounds a lot like equanimity. I don't really know much about the difference between low equanimity/high equanimity and all that.

I'm also having this thought... stages of insight seem to be various formulas for fractals of the three characteristics. It all seems to be very fractal-like.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
5/1/12 8:00 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Just tried some kasina practice. I'd never imagined one could stare at a yo-yo and do such things. There was some interesting light play/glow, and even the appearance of the chair it was on swiveling around. I just focused and followed. This seemed cyclical in a way, like the intensity and level of concentration was coming in waves. Once I tapered off, I realized the buzzing was going crazy. I decided to switch to vipassana from there.

So now that I look at the maps and consider my own experience, it seems that I cycled up through mind and body/cause and effect (still not really familiar enough with what exactly the experience is, but I know I'm passing them) to the A&P, then back down and up. It also seems like the speed of the cycling is getting faster and that each time around, the nanas are more intense. For example, whereas before, there would be some itches, then many all over, then just vibration throughout, then perhaps some kind of rapture/cumulation of vibes into an orgasmic type thing, now it is more defined. I feel good (maybe this is the mind/body bit), then warm up the perception with some fast switching (or today, kasina), then let go of the reins. Then, the itches and pains will feel quite a bit stronger. There will be a strong feeling of adrenaline in my abdomen/heart, and it seems to be getting stronger and stronger each time around, as well as coming on much quicker from the initial pains which I know will result in this. Then, the adrenaline feeling will meld all the pains and itches into tingling all over. This is now beginning to include a sense of behind the eyes, although my sense of self doesn't seem to be shaking. Then, it'll back off, things will seem to just be tingling and such, until they fade. Then, it'll all just happen again and again. Familiarity is nice here since it is a practice of skill, and familiarity offers relativity as far as what your skill is doing. I would imagine that these cycles speed and speed until the top tier gives way into the new territory.

I didn't try to push over the A&P, and am trying to feel the cycle. I'm also home with my mom and I don't usually sit in meditation when visible, due to religious differences and scrutiny this would bring. I'm just sitting in a chair at my desk. But anyways, a rapture would be a very hard thing to explain and I'm not really familiar with raptures yet so I'm being conservative and exploring this cycling aspect that is beginning to become clear. It's clear that there is a feeling I've gotten after rapture not included in the cycle I was just exploring, which becomes diffuse and very relaxed, but it has the feeling of being a point pushed off from the rapture. I'm curious if I can get there without intense raptures. I'm also wondering how the dukkha nanas play out after A&P. It sounds like after the A&P event, the dukkha nanas will generally just happen. I'm thinking the fact that the A&P is new to me explains why I haven't been "launched" into that territory, as A&P is still generally not a height I think I get to when I don't practice. Also, looking back on a few days ago where I was running around school noting all day, it looks like I was indeed cycling up to A&P and perhaps touching on dissolution. I'm thinking feelings of adrenaline in the chest and stomach are related to the 3 C's, and that the dukkha nanas will probably be more fundamentally shaking than just bodily sensations.

Forgive me if I go overboard on journaling and make it overwhelming to follow. It's as much for me as anyone else, as writing seems to help me take in what I've experienced. I also think the A&P area makes me go a little nuts, like speed or crack or something. Haha... I even asked my professor this, out of the blue, before class: "Don't you think taking a girl out for water would be a good date? I mean... everybody drinks; you can't go wrong".
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She gave me a quite incredulous look, and then just walked away.
Ahahaha... it's cause I touched on the nana of first date.

But in all seriousness, I'm watching out for going overboard with energy. I think I share a bit too much dharma with my friends who can't relate at all to this and mostly think I'm crazy. But they're cool and you do have to share things with your friends when you're overwhelmed with thoughts.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
5/2/12 4:07 AM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Today is pretty mild compared to yesterday. Things feel more "normal" than they did yesterday, but with subtle differences. Sensations seem to be more broad and cover larger areas, whereas before they seemed more zeroed in. There's also this odd thing I keep running into where I'll get sensations from up in the back of my head, almost from behind my body. This seems to be happening when I zone out. Zoning out also seems to be happening a lot, but this could just be from how tired I feel today. Motivation is definitely not as strong, but whenever I feel tingles or such, it prompts me to investigate and do a little noting. It doesn't feel so momentous like yesterday, but it's still on the burner.

This all sounds like you're moving through Dissolution, the way sensations "seem to be more broad and cover larger areas" is what I was talking about when describing what goes on in 3rd jhana, and the zoning out is also quite common. It sounds like you're staying present though and doing what needs to be done to continue, it's just a case of observing and accepting whatever arises; note it accurately and try to experience as much of each sensation as possible when you're practicing.

I just did a formal sit, starting with vipassana. It seemed so mild and chill. It wasn't really hard to tune into things, but like I said, sensations seemed to be more spread out over larger areas. I have no interpretation for this; it is what it is.

It's all good, early-3rd jhana territory, look at how the endings of sensations may be more apparent than their beginnings but try to see them clearly anyway. Where do those sensations go when they appear to pass away? Where do they come from when they appear to arise? What's going on in-between them?!

Or, if I wanna sound studious, it was what it was, and then utterly vanished. Haha.

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I've been poking around the threads and I see how silly people sound sometimes when they get so into being strictly dogmatic, or dhar-matic, automatically, that they miss intent behind messages, chastise for wrong views ("you said "I'm going to work"! There is no I! You can't say that! Ahhhh!"), or in general sound like they aren't really interested in the very simple and down to earth idea of people just trying to learn a skill and communicate as humans. I might have been like that a bit before I read Ingram's book and realized how closed-minded we can be to things we think are serious business. I think to myself, some people seem to just like the idea of being in a holy, new age community, rooting themselves to that idea. But this is so mobile, so dynamic. Sure, it's a community on some level, but as far as the primary purpose, it isn't really a community; it's a commute.

It's great that you've been able to see through the potential bullshit already, it's such a complex landscape involved with this stuff and miscommunication is all too easy. The attitude you've got towards this should stand you in good stead.

Anyways, it was really chill and calm. I thought I might try some concentration practice on breath. I kept getting distracted, just like before I started vipassana. However, when I did get distracted, the realization of this came within seconds, and there was a markedly detached feeling towards this. Some people yell at their kids for being kids, despair at their kids acting like kids, and do things to make their kids adults while they still mysteriously remain kids. But kids will grow up, and it's just nature for them to be kids. I felt somewhat like that when the mind would wander. There was also a feeling of no continuity of moment, as the distracted moment was just a moment that I happened to see with my attention. It didn't seem tied to the last, or like the concentration had gone bad. It just seemed like binary. Things were either this or that. Concentration was there or not there. I s'pose that's the vipassana flavor. Having this detached and nonchalant feeling towards it prevented feelings of frustration from arising or getting any good grip on me, which is good since I used to practice concentration and just practice in frustration and walk away with that feeling. This seems to help me. I don't need to turn "me" into some concentrated dude, I just need to look at the frames I've previously been busting apart and see what they're doing altogether and how they appear. Maybe. Of course, this is just speculation from my experience thus far.

Those two lines I've highlighted are particularly good indicators that you're getting into the groove with this; noticing you're distracted is being back where you want to be: Mindful. Nice. All of this develops very naturally when you stop fighting to make it happen, so keep doing what you're doing here and it'll come together.

I was thinking about the past today. On car rides, I always used to watch the dotted lines in the road go by, tapping my finger whenever they passed some sort of visual boundary like the car frame. It got easy, so eventually I added in trees, other cars on the other side of the road, poles, etc. and eventually just did it with my mind. Maybe this could explain how I somehow found my way to a practice which is not all too different.

Aye, I know that game well! emoticon Bring that fun, playful approach to your practice and you'll find it can be even more enjoyable.

By the way, do you have a practice log? Where do you find yourself as far as attainment?

I've got/had a few practice threads since I started on here, and also over on KFD, here's the most recent one although you'll probably come across the others anyway. I'll see if I can find them and post the links here.

Current practice log.

Attainment-wise, I got 4th path (as described in MCTB, not in the suttas but that's another story) last year but my background varies from yogic stuff to magick. To be honest, I don't even know 100% if what I attained, which seems to match Daniel's and others descriptions of 4th path, is actually what I think it was but it's become less important as my practice has evolved. I'm currently exploring the AF approach and the 7-stage model laid out by Thusness[1], with further commentary from An Eternal Now. My practice is pretty much a hybrid of various techniques, but is mainly focused on vipassana (not noting though) and what could be described as zazen. Basically, I'm just some guy who meditates and likes talking about this stuff. emoticon

[1] A highly-realized dude from Singapore who blogs here: Awakening to Reality along with another DhO user by the name of An Eternal Now.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
5/3/12 8:35 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Today I ventured upon something new.

In my sits, I start with tingles in specific areas. They start to increase in intensity and begin to ripple through my body and activate other ripples, until my whole body feels the tingles. Then, I get that very mellow, chilled out feeling. Up until now, it all seemed very edgy and neurotic, and with an odd tiredness, as though I was falling asleep yet still vaguely practicing. I got to thinking about where sounds ended when I heard them, and it was frustrating since I couldn't tell right where the physical sound ended because my mind would keep the sound alive. This got me to thinking to investigate on the mental level. Practice has been mostly dealing with physical sensations up to this point, but today I realized the mental level of experience is much different, and very disconnected.

As I tuned into the mental level, I realized it wasn't quite something where I could just feel the tingles inside my head as I thought before. It seemed totally different, like I had woken up in a large cathedral with walls too far away to see. It was a massive feeling. I realized that I had been ignoring this somewhat, but I decided to try to tune into it. It was like things were playing in jumpy frames, and physical sensations seemed to leave a vague, but barely perceptible imprint somewhere in this vast, expansive realm. After awhile, it seemed as though all physical sensation began to fade. The sense of my physical body began to fade.

I didn't really do much in terms of busting this realm apart into the 3 c's, since it was new and I was just getting a feel for it. However, visual elements within it seemed almost like holograms, presenting themselves in a very low frame rate. The thing that was most striking was the peace. There was no neurotic feeling or edginess whatsoever, which hasn't presented itself until this. It was like I had been in a bunker hearing rain overhead, and then come out to see a magnificent sun cut through the darkness. It left me feeling very peaceful, awake, aware, and not at all energized or tingly. The tingles were on a much lower, gross level, where my focus has, up to this point, been. This didn't really seem physically focused at all. In fact, it was like the focus was everywhere but where my body would be. The edge of my awareness wasn't far off; it was at the center of this big place of my mind. It seemed ever expansive, but it was tough to pinpoint the middle of it. I don't think I could "crash" from this like I could from other states. I'm sure it'll fade; none of these mental states last.

I understand that I am not to buy into the peace as it pertains to vipassana, and eventually, once my eyes adjust to this new light, I shall bust it apart into the 3 c's and turn my focus to finding out how "I" relate to this new realm.

It sounds and feels like equanimity to me. What do you think?

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
5/3/12 1:49 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Also, regardless of what this is, I recall some jhanas having that characteristic of being very wide and having the effect of losing feeling of one's body as the focus goes to this mental realm. It certainly feels like a state that I could take refuge in and perhaps I ought to try to solidify this state. It's stable and very nice!

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
Answer
5/4/12 11:22 AM as a reply to Mind over easy.
I am not as experienced as Tommy, but I have nearly gone through 2 insight cycles (I guess you could say 'almost' 2nd path. Hha), and this still sounds like Dissolution to me as I experienced it. The earlier drowsiness with the cool sense of calmer peace and noticing the impermanence of things seem to line up. Especially how you describe things out at the edge of awareness is very 5th nana / 3rd vipassana jhana.

RE: Time to share and keep track, now that things are taking off. (WOW
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5/5/12 8:42 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
So yesterday, I was just going about my day and chewing on this very helpless feeling I had. It seemed that I was noticing any time something happened in a certain way and I didn't like the outcome. The realization that I'm helpless to whatever is in the moment seemed to sink in and make me feel more okay with everything. I had a ton of energy after that.

Last night, I had this dream that I was with all my friends, being buddies and such. I was so full of life and energy. I was going to climb this big, bright, radiant tower, and was so energetic about it. My friends were supporting me. However, as I was climbing, before I reached the top, I had a complete emotional breakdown of frustration, pain, and helplessness. I fell back down all the way and I was ruined. I was so depressed and frustrated.

Today, I woke up very calm and relaxed. However, as I went about my day, things seemed more and more surreal. I'm looking at housing with my friends as of late, and there is something extremely surreal and terrifying about it. It's not terrifying in the conventional sense of moving out and such. It's just something about seeing these snapshots of life and the things that surround us and make up some seemingly stable world where we can feel supported. The same feeling came about as we walked around the city, ate out, and joked and talked. It was pitiful in a way... I was like an alien in this group of people who were somehow satisfied with drowning out the painful, selfless, and utterly fleeting truths behind every dollar spent to keep the wheel going. I felt these extreme waves of depression. I almost broke out in tears, just sitting there at the table for dinner, looking around at all these people living such empty and painful lives, trying to sustain illusions of consistent satisfaction in life. The pain was in seeing how each purchase, each fabrication of personality, each joke just seemed to be a way of hiding from reality. I kept looking up into the sky and getting lost in its vastness, and somehow still realizing how I could occupy the whole sky with my perception of it. It made all the people going about their days, swearing, cursing, smoking, laughing, and walking in groups seem like ants. It made me feel like I was a set of eyes within the sky, looking down on some odd life that I never saw from the vast empty space that is all around us. It feels like people go by and disappear, like every scene playing out is already over before it begins, like I'm a brick in a wall, like I'm a ghost floating amongst the living, watching life appear and disappear and somehow being separate from the system, like an anomaly.

I haven't formally sat; I've been with friends and probably will be for awhile. I would be interested to see where my mind takes me. Depression typically seems blunt, dull, and unfocused to me. However, this is a much deeper feeling of depression that makes everything seem extremely sharp and lucid. It's not unbearable, just really weird and pervasive in most experience. It just seems like I'm being rocked from situation to situation, with everything just disappearing, and me being an odd set of eyes in space watching it happen. I feel that this is doing good though.