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what was that?
Answer
6/18/12 7:25 PM
swaying forward and back
body shaking
hands clenched, pulling in opposite directions
head pulled up and to the right
feeling of a rod through the shoulders
vision of body dripping away from itself
vision of light and the word “lonely”
moments of heavier breathing noted
watching without judgment or fear

RE: what was that?
Answer
6/19/12 8:54 AM as a reply to chris h.
Sounds typically "A&P Event" related to me, but it's difficult to say with any certainty since there's no indication of your practices before, or after that happened. The A&P diagnosis is purely for convenience and would only be relevant if you'd been doing insight practice, however it'd be much more helpful to know what you've been doing before this happened, and how things seem after the fact.

Moar detail!!

Welcome to the DhO, tell us a bit about yourself and where you've come from practice-wise; if we know that, it'll be much easier to suggest how best to proceed according to what you're looking to achieve.

RE: what was that?
Answer
6/19/12 11:24 AM as a reply to Tommy M.
thanks tommy, i've been doing a daily insight practice for about three years. this happened on the third day of my first retreat (a few weeks ago). i never experienced anything at all like that before (i had an experience, about a year ago, when i was just walking, that felt like insight into non-self... a warm glowy experience of the absurdity of identity which felt different than a thought, felt like a direct experience of it). for a few days after the retreat i felt like the experience was still close, like i could get back there... but now i'm back to my usual. i've only recently been exploring a goal-oriented approach to practice, been reading stuff and taking a mapping class. my teacher said it sounded like a&p and suggested meditating more and doing another retreat before long. i just thought i'd post it here and see... thanks for responding. -chris

RE: what was that?
Answer
6/19/12 12:11 PM as a reply to chris h.
Ah, in that case I'd definitely chalk that up as an A&P Event; there's a fractal element to 4th ñana so you've likely hit the A&P Event itself, which would be like the peak of the ñana, then passed through the mature stages of it in the following days before hitting the early stages of Dissolution.

Clearly you've made progress, but if this is the first time this sort of thing has happened then what were you doing previously in your practice? I'm assuming that either you've refined your technique, perhaps having been practicing in a less than effective way previously, or the retreat environment and ability to practice solidly without distraction has allowed you to really go for it.

Either way, what you're likely to notice in your daily life and sits is that attention will have spread out towards the periphery, it'll be more difficult to note what's going on in the center of the perceptual field but you can use that to your advantage. When you're in A&P territory, attention is like a single point focused right there in the center but with the ability to still observe pretty much the entire field; don't try to force your attention to go back towards the center 'cause it'll just cause you more hassle, relax into it and let whatever happens happen. Continue to note accurately and observe objects as they appear, their cessation will be more readily observed than their arising so don't stress if you're not able to catch them as they appear.

The big thing I've learned about passing through "Dark Night" territory, 3rd vipassana jhana, is to surrender willingly to the experience without reservation; imagine it as a big wave that could either crush you, or pass by peacefully depending on whether you struggle against the tide, or let it carry you wherever it pleases. You're on the ride, now let go of the wheel and cruise your way, attentively and with an eye for the Three Characteristics, towards Equanimity.

Useful?

RE: what was that?
Answer
6/19/12 12:40 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
yes, thank you very much. and, yes, the retreat environment and ability to practice solidly without distraction allowed me to really go for it in a way that i haven't before... there was an instruction before the meditation to "stop meditating" that caused me to take a slight edge off the whole thing which i think was helpful. i'll take your advice, surrender willingly, and see where that goes... nice to have this forum.

RE: what was that?
Answer
6/21/12 1:19 PM as a reply to chris h.
i have been experiencing the cessation of stuff more but, it's funny, when i read that here i don't, at first, connect it somehow, as if it doesn't really apply to me. i'm skeptical maybe that there are these stages or that i'm going through them... i don't know.

i have a question. when i had the experience that i described above, i would notice, for example, my hands clenched, pulling apart... and i didn't have the thought of trying to relax that. everything that was happening, i just allowed to happen. i have the thought that if i had adjusted, relaxed... i wouldn't have continued on that ride. i just meditated and noticed my right hand clenched and pushing against my left and, again, i didn't think i needed to do anything about it, almost like i couldn't. then i had the thought to go ahead and try so i did and i slowly relaxed the hand. it was kind of cool. anyway, i noticed, also, the ankles tightening up and other contractions and i wonder if you suggest trying to relax the body or letting it do what it wants.

RE: what was that?
Answer
6/21/12 6:11 PM as a reply to chris h.
i wonder if you suggest trying to relax the body or letting it do what it wants.

The shaking, clenching stuff are sometimes called "kriyas", but the meaning of the term differs depending on the tradition. It's totally normal though, try just staying attentive to the whole body and seeing if you can stay with the entire movement; if you struggle, the body tightens more so go with whatever happens and stay present.

RE: what was that?
Answer
10/25/12 12:04 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
i'm just back from a seven day retreat... i did several 2 hour sits that all started with swaying back and forth (sometimes very forcefully) and a lot of movement... head pulling up to the side, hands clenched... at one point my arms/hands opened up like i was holding a bowl and my head dropped down into my hands, lots of stuff like that all of which i was just watching, all of which i could have stopped but just allowed it to go on. there was not the severe shaking and rod though the shoulders that i experienced on the last retreat and no vivid visions, no grand finale, though there were some subtle light shows.

if the last experience and/or this one was a&p, i have not had anything like the dark night experiences i've seen described here. my level of equanimity has felt very high for some time. i have noticed a bit more of a "nothing matters" point of view but not in a dark or depressing way...

any thoughts?

RE: what was that?
Answer
10/25/12 12:28 PM as a reply to chris h.
Hi,

Once you have passed the A&P and progressed through the nanas, each time you re-cross it, it becomes less of a big deal. You may experience it as only a slight bump. This will continue until you reach SE and start a new cycle.

The DN doesn't always have horrible symptoms, my first one certainly didn't.

This is not a diagnosis, but the head dropping thing, feeling high and the sense that nothing matters seem indicative of the EQ nana to me. I would not be surprised if you passed straight through the DN.

Good work, keep going!

RE: what was that?
Answer
11/7/12 9:27 AM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
if i have passed through the DN to the EQ nana, do i understand correctly that the next "thing" is total momentary cessation? i just meditated for 2 1/2 hours, it's so easy to sit... and i feel like i could go away... is there any advice? or is it just a matter of keeping at it and not delaying progress with thought or expectation...

RE: what was that?
Answer
11/8/12 6:41 PM as a reply to chris h.
or is it just a matter of keeping at it and not delaying progress with thought or expectation...


well done