Nikolai .:
Because more 'actually free people' will provide easier communication and more variety perhaps. Or will they all be like the borg and offer nothing but Richard quotes? Justine is our first 'official' data on the net these days that they wont be.
Who is projecting now? You are presumably stating that Vineeto and Peter are like the borg? Where are you getting that impression from? Here's an official data point: in my personal experience of meeting Vineeto in person, she was not borg-like at all. She was a sensible and intelligent human being who could very well think for herself. Perhaps I will write a report of my experiences of that trip soon and then that'll be a publicly official data point on the net.
Nikolai .:
But more data is needed to be sure. Perhaps Justine will have his status of 'af' stripped from for saying something contrary down the line.
And here you are assuming that an actual freedom is strictly a title to be bestowed by one human on another, and that it isn't a condition that actually exists of its own accord (as distinct from something you are currently experiencing/have experienced before)... I guess it's not too surprising that you're not interested in talking with Richard.
Nikolai .:
Who knows? it will be more interesting and informative. Wouldn't it?
Yes, but I don't know why you expect something else to happen. You haven't had a productive conversation with either Justine or Richard, whereas I have had productive conversations with both... maybe it's not them, but you?
Nikolai .:
Rather than trusting in so very few accounts now that others' accounts have been stripped of 'officialdom',
If you're referring to Tarin: Richard did not give Tarin any 'officialdom', Tarin just claimed that he was actually free, and then renounced the claim. If you're referring to Trent: Richard did not give Trent any 'officialdom', Trent just claimed that he was actually free, and as far as I know he hasn't renounced the claim yet. If you're referring to yourself: Richard did not give you any 'officialdom', you just claimed that you were actually free, and then renounced the claim. If you're referring to End in Sight: Richard did not give End in Sight any 'officialdom', he just claimed that he was actually free, and then renounced the claim and apologized for having ever used that model.
So who is stripping whom of their 'officialdom'?
Nikolai .:
wouldn't it be better to have more official proclaimers discussing this without feeling the need to 'leave'?
Agreed.
Nikolai .:
I don't trust nor currently accept what I have read of Richard's explanations of 'Buddhism' etc and his dismissal of it and see much of what I've put into practice leading to the same result (and who knows even beyond 'af').
Yet Richard has read everything you've posted publicly and come to the definitive conclusion that you aren't experiencing the same result at all. Maybe he sees something that you cannot? And I agree with his assessment, so it's not only Richard that thinks that.
Nikolai .:
Perhaps there are differences. Richard's opinions are sullied by me not having a boner for his explanations of 'parinibbana', etc. I'd prefer others to chime in. And if there really is a difference, well, so be it. And if there really isn't, well, so be it. Then there wont be the need for the VERSUS anymore. It will be a simple choice for each person. I know you are against this. I am not.
No, that's all I've been saying lately. Where did you get the impression that I am against that? Who is projecting now?
We're entirely in agreement on this point. It is a simple choice: do people want to attain an actual freedom as Richard describes it, or do they want to attain 'af' as you and Trent (for example) describe it? There is no versus here. They are simply two different things. It is
you that is confusing people by continuing to insist they are the same. And when you have a golden opportunity to really flesh out whether the two are indeed the same, by speaking with an actually free person about your experiences, you decide to stop talking to him.
Nikolai .:
I'd prefer first hand accounts from others with their own voice....like Justine. More clarity from differing voices (of actually free) is what I'd prefer and am waiting for.
Do you mean you'd prefer someone who would agree that you are experiencing an actual freedom?
Nikolai .:
I hope you will eventually share a phenomenological discussion when actually free yourself here at the DhO.
I probably will, but if nothing else changes on the DhO until that happens, I expect I will receive the same treatment, and you will likely just wait for another person to become actually free. Given that I am now on the path to an actual freedom as a result of the way I see things now, I really don't see my understanding with regards to this changing.
Nikolai .:
As you know, I have certain 'buddhist leanings'. I don't share the same ideas as Richard. This probably is the main cause behind my want of clarity and no urge to discuss further with someone seemingly quite entrenched in their views of things.
If you were holding a banana in your hand, and talking to somebody holding an apple in their hand, they would likely disagree that you were holding the same object in your hand. Would you call them "entrenched in their views"?
It sounds to me that, despite what you say about being ok with there really being a difference, you really don't want there to be a difference... otherwise, why would you not continue talking with Richard in detail and really figure it out for yourself, definitively? Why would you instead try to talk to Justine, who is not even fully there yet and isn't even willing to discuss the topic with you, versus Richard, who is fully there and was willing to discuss it with you? It sounds to me like you will consider any actually free person that says you are not experiencing an actual freedom to be "entrenched in their views".
Nikolai .:
My conditioned behaviour supported by the spirit of this community perhaps is a player. Clarity over dogmatic and/or half-truth and/or baseless assumptions is what I prefer. Clarity over not clear.
What clarity is there in declining to talk to somebody who could shed light on what it is you are experiencing? When it became obvious that Richard read everything you publicly publicly and concluded that you are not actually free, you immediately stopped the conversation, saying that you didn't want to confuse anybody else.
Nikolai .:
A thorn in your actualist side? Consider it a personality trait. ;-)
Why would clarity be a thorn in my side? When it became obvious to me, after reading
Addendum 7, that there was probably something going on that I was not understanding, I went and visited Richard myself to find out what was going on. It was because I valued clarity that I went to visit him. Clarity is the main reason I'm headed for an actual freedom now, and lack of clarity the main reason I wasn't, before.
Speaking personally, it is incredibly confusing to consider actual freedom and what you are experiencing as the same thing. It makes it impossible to make that choice you referred to earlier.
- Claudiu