Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Claims to Attainments

1st Jhana and Access Concentration

1st Jhana and Access Concentration
stream entry access concentration no-self 1st jhana
Answer
8/3/12 8:26 AM
Hey guys,

still relatively new here, A little bit more about me from other threads is that I came from RT then moved onto LU to help guide people to seeing No-Self. I was stuck for a long time thinking that state was the end of my travels. I was trapped in thinking it was enlightenment, but am not grateful to realize it's not, just impermanent of a state in terms of the humanness affect (suffering still happens, reactions still happen, just a lot less.)

I reached dark night shortly after realizing no-self off of one of Ciarans blog posts (as my girlfriend broke up with me etc. etc.) All of those insecurities inside bubbled up and bled into my real life (unfortunately I didn't have MCTB to let me know not to let that bleed into real life haha)

Before realizing, I did do quite a bit of meditation and some of the things described by the Jhanas I can see from my practices, clear hearing going on, white lights flashing and pulsing, etc. However I didn't know how to describe them or stabalize them.


More recently I reached out here to the lovely katy who gave me some nice suggestions as I feel I want to work for first path SE, and decided to just start to work my way up starting at 1st Jhana and Access Concentration and stabilizing those two at least.

Last night I believe I hit both at different intervals of time, one was very focused, where everything took the background where all the focus was on was the counting of breath cycles (up to 10) thanks to Tomy M's little guide to access concentration which I found very helpful. I could see and maintain that for about a minute or two.

However, after this, sometimes the AC would break off and distraction would happen (it happened in my first sit). My second sit however, went from AC to 1st Jhana as it felt like a find fog descended. I still could sense some tensions in the body, but were not bothersome. The fog like feel felt very relaxing and almost like one would feel sitting on a boat as it bobs in the early morning hours, very tranquil. There was a lightness about it too, although I did perceive some tension in the head (or pressure)


Can anyone tell me if I'm on the right track and how stable I should go to make these before I move onto 2nd Jhana etc? I would like to help out some people I know where I live and are close friends that follow in the same kind of path as I so I want to know how to get, keep and move on to the next to reach SE. Would be nice to have someone in my area who can show others there is more than just the intellectual side of things.

Thanks for your help!

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/11/12 2:22 PM as a reply to Nick Myers.
Updating my meditation:

Now there seems to be a problem. I don't think I'm any longer experiencing any kind of jhana, or very short segments that I can distinguish. What is most distinct in meditation is

Many different tensions in the back along with irritation or a feeling of grasping that seems to be on the forefront. I kind of pulls me away from focus. I press on to being attentive to breath but still the nagging feeling of irritation of "no-progress"

Also the thought sensation of, "okay I just need to give this up." As in maybe I should give up trying to "willfully" attain jhanas knowing that on some level it can't be willed.


Have been talking to Tommy a bit about this, I'm going to be moving from strictly attention to breath to noting as many sensations as i can in the body until that door opens. Since I can't seem to pull Jhanas at "will" Just going to worry about them later haha.


Anyway advice on this would be appreciate or perhaps a pointer where I might be at right now.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/11/12 2:39 PM as a reply to Nick Myers.
With access concentration, try resting attention on some pleasant phenomenon, as described in these instructions.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/11/12 6:25 PM as a reply to fivebells ..
Thanks five bells.

This actually answered some of my questions about this. Like why the breath becomes really shallow etc. This quote in particular from the Buddhas earlier teachining may have answered why jhanas have been hard to access.

"Secluded from sense desire, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, one approaches and abides in the first jhana."

The need to make progress might be hindering the progress. I also took some advice from Tommy about trying noting as much as possible because I'm more partial to Stream Entry then just Jhanas however I thought that being able to stabilize and control Jhanas, it would be easier reaching SE.

However I'm seeing it's probably actually the other way around.

I found that when I'm noting during meditation after opening access concentration I note a lot of feeling of fatigue or almost that "zoning out" or "close to sleep" like sensation in the eyes and have to actively bring it back.



Do you guys think I should be strengthening my attentiveness of access concentration more or should just keep working to the best of my ability on noting and work through the tiredness sensations to make those skills stronger?

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/11/12 8:00 PM as a reply to Nick Myers.
Does the dullness happen if you rest attention on a pleasant sensation, too?

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/11/12 9:27 PM as a reply to fivebells ..
I'll have to check next time I meditate. As far as I know when im being attentive to the breathe (which is also very pleasant for me) the dullness isn't there.

However it seems to happen when I'm not focused on something, just enjoying the meditation to where I have to pull myself back from succumbing to the dullness and "blacking out or falling in the gap"

It use to happen to me a lot and my last meditation I noticed that i appeared to be in some kind of dullness until something snapped me back into attentiveness during it.

Also when doing this sort of meditation, I've noticed the inside of my eyelids over time seem to get lighter as if a light source is slowly being turned up, and it becomes more of a dull green.

I don't see visions in meditation, as I'm not currently gifted with visual skills, but I can see slight colors; mainly blues, greens, and whites.



Anyway back on subject: Dullness seems to happen when there isn't active attention or focus on something, so it tends to almost go into like a "day dream" like sensation where everything seems to feel "fuzzy". If I focus on a pleasant sensation I also tend to automatically start noting things, it doesn't seem to want to just take in pleasant sensations... Maybe it means business and just wants Stream Entry?

I did send out that intent.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/17/12 8:10 AM as a reply to Nick Myers.
So last night on the mat, There was a moment in which there was tension slowly building up in the head.

Vision inside of the eyelids appeared to get lighter, a slight moment of bliss, and then more pressure in the head. Something feels like it wants to get out.

Then there was dissipation of this joy and dissipation of the pressure.

This was while still focusing on the breath this was noticed. They become great objects of meditation.

Is there a reason why the thought that something wants to get out arises (or any validity to this self claim) or should it be disregarded and just seen that it was a thought sensation like any other thought?

I also realized that the only reason a sense of self on this end is felt is because its mistaken from the senses that happen to make the distinction that. "this is why they are happening, you are this continuitious thing." Even though it isn't continuitious, the senses prove this wrong by being one after the other in fast succession do they not?

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/17/12 4:37 PM as a reply to Nick Myers.
Is there a reason why the thought that something wants to get out arises (or any validity to this self claim) or should it be disregarded and just seen that it was a thought sensation like any other thought?

I wouldn't say there's any reason as such, it's more likely to be the way your mind automatically conceptualizes that pattern of sensations; tension, pressure, pushing, all of these sensations implying something needing to be released when, in actuality, all that's required is to acknowledge them, experience their transience and how, in any aspect of it's manifestation, there's no self to be found there. Thoughts are just thoughts, a sensation like any other which arises dependent upon conditions which "you" have no say in, never mind any control over; they're there and they're gone, a seemingly unbroken chain of associated mental objects...until you penetrate their true nature and experience how such concepts are ultimately not required for these luminous, yet inherently empty 'objects' to exist at all.

Next time you notice that sense of something wanting to get out, investigate what that 'something' actually 'is' rather than simply what it implies. Look at how, no matter how it's seen, there is no difference whatsoever between the way in which any of those sensations are experienced fundamentally; all differences are implied after the fact, but in the moment they're experienced directly - free from the push/pull of like/dislike (as well as the "meh" of neutrality) free from the identification, conceptualization, categorization and all those unconscious mental processes - there is just another transient, luminous, self-liberated sensation and nothing more.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/18/12 11:23 AM as a reply to Nick Myers.
Hi Nick,

Tommy answered your first question. I'll take a stab at the second.

Nick Myers:

I also realized that the only reason a sense of self on this end is felt is because its mistaken from the senses that happen to make the distinction that[:] "this is why they are happening, you are this continuous thing." Even though it isn't continuous, the senses prove this wrong by being one after the other in fast succession do they not?

That observation is certainly true. Keep digging deeper into your contemplation of this to see this phenomenon even clearer. The clearer you see it, the less dukkha will affect "you." Of course, you have to be able to be mindful of this truth on a continuous basis in order to lessen the effect of "dukkha charged moments." This is why Gotama emphasized mindfulness practice so much in the discourses.

That "sense of self" is an illusion created in the mind. In reality, there is only form, feeling, perception, mental volition, and consciousness, with no substantial backing (thing or entity) behind it. Just an idea that a self exists. Read that sentence again if you didn't GET IT the first time: Just an idea (thought form) that a self exists. It is this "thought form" that is being mistaken for the "continuous, connected succession of events dependently arising" evidence of a self.

In peace,
Ian

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/22/12 1:37 PM as a reply to Ian And.
I have some questions after reading this posts. When you speak about pay attention to pleasant sensations just when you get Access Concentration and before first Jhana im a bit confused.

In my practice, I use to pay attention to the breathing. I started only trying to be the more time possible 'looking'' at it, trying to be faster notizing when some thoughts were coming to replace the object.
With the time I was able to perceive the changing of the attention more precisely, how I was feeling the different sensations of the breathing, beeing aware of impermanence, and in some instance of suffer and how self was being created.

My problem is that I dont know where Access Concentration ends, and when 1st Jhana begins. As I dont know where is the line, i dont know when I have to pay attention to pleasant sensations. And I dont know for how long one has to be concentrated on that rather on the breathing. And I dont know why one should do that : ) hehe

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/22/12 5:19 PM as a reply to Pablo Elías Rego.
Pablo Elías Rego:
As I dont know where is the line, i dont know when I have to pay attention to pleasant sensations.


Try it and see what happens

Pablo Elías Rego:
And I dont know for how long one has to be concentrated on that rather on the breathing.


There are pleasant sensations in the experience of breathing itself. Try resting attention on those.

Pablo Elías Rego:
And I dont know why one should do that : ) hehe


It's essentially a form of Skinnerian operant conditioning. Attention to the present moment is being rewarded with pleasant sensations, conditioning attention to stay there.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/23/12 3:34 AM as a reply to Tommy M.
Thank you Tommy for the answer to the question. I see now that it is just another little thought trick that was grasped onto based on information that was read a while back about kundalini or life energy exiting the body. and even then it doesn't really make sense now that I think about it as the body is this that which is going on so why would it need to exit anywhere?

Will focus more on acknowledging rather than sticking to the labeling of said experiences.


Also Ian And, Thank you, I got you the first time with the illusion of self. I don't have trouble with that. I'm actually having more trouble with directly experiencing impermanence haha.

I'm pretty sure at this point that I haven't been in 1st Jhana, maybe a nice version of access concentration (maybe 1st jhana way back when i meditated a lot and didn't know what 1st jhana was) but I haven't obtained it. Keep you guys updated on any progress. I'm enjoying the process and will not give up. Each day is another day of progress. =]

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/23/12 10:37 AM as a reply to Nick Myers.
Nick Myers:

I'm actually having more trouble with directly experiencing impermanence haha.

Hi Nick,

Impermanence is all around us, happening each and every moment. It's one of the easiest things to directly experience! I don't understand your statement.

The fact that a person's health is not in a permanent state of healthfulness is an indication of impermanence. One day you feel good, the next day you're down with the flu. Impermanence!

But more importantly, what Gotama was pointing out by this is that because things are impermanent, they are not necessarily always satisfying, and because of this one experiences dukkha (dissatisfaction) with the condition of life in general and having to live in a physical realm.

And yet even beyond this, because things are impermanent, this makes the creation of a "self" in the mind even more bothersome, and is why he was able to arrive at the conclusion that the basic characteristic of personality is that it is "without self" or anatta. And that anything that is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and without self cannot be worth holding onto.

Yet, even beyond all this, what one needs to work on is the breaking down of the mental conditioning that has taken place over the years which has nurtured this illusion of self and permanence. When one is able to see and understand these things as they actually are (in and through mindfulness of this truth), that recognition alone begins to chip away at this illusion in the psyche, and eventually one lets go of it, not to be bothered by it ever again.

In peace,
Ian

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/23/12 11:05 PM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:

Yet, even beyond all this, what one needs to work on is the breaking down of the mental conditioning that has taken place over the years which has nurtured this illusion of self and permanence. When one is able to see and understand these things as they actually are (in and through mindfulness of this truth), that recognition alone begins to chip away at this illusion in the psyche, and eventually one lets go of it, not to be bothered by it ever again.

In peace,
Ian


That's what I'm actually having a bit of trouble with. I've had no-self realization. I guess the body hasn't made the recognition that this false sense of self is really only just a thousand and one different sensations happening in fast succession to create the illusion of something being there aside from... well sensations happening.

Alot was let go with the seeing, but there still seems to be residue left still. Which is probably why meditation became part of my practice again, and well I think Jhanas are pretty exciting tools to have to further progress of at least stream entry +

I actually wrote about no-self being like a rubber band ball below:

http://liberatedself.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/how-a-rubber-band-ball-frees-you-from-suffering/

If you care to read and add any advice on where you think I may be, it would be much appreciated Ian or Tommy... or well anyone else for that matter haha.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/24/12 10:58 AM as a reply to fivebells ..
fivebells .:
Pablo Elías Rego:
As I dont know where is the line, i dont know when I have to pay attention to pleasant sensations.


Try it and see what happens

Pablo Elías Rego:
And I dont know for how long one has to be concentrated on that rather on the breathing.


There are pleasant sensations in the experience of breathing itself. Try resting attention on those.

Pablo Elías Rego:
And I dont know why one should do that : ) hehe


It's essentially a form of Skinnerian operant conditioning. Attention to the present moment is being rewarded with pleasant sensations, conditioning attention to stay there.


So paying attention to this pleasant sensations is only a complementary trick to strengthen motivation in all the process? Is not only something one has to do at the end of access concentration?

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/24/12 11:59 AM as a reply to Pablo Elías Rego.
Pablo Elías Rego:
So paying attention to this pleasant sensations is only a complementary trick to strengthen motivation in all the process?


No, it goes quite deep. Firstly, it's a way of conditioning attention to rest. You need the stability it affords to do effective insight practice. But it's not just a trick, it's a path to metta and mudita, two of the four brahmaviharas, which can be thought of as cognates to conventional positive emotions, but are unconditional qualities of awareness (in theory, at least; for me the experience of them still depends on establishing favorable conditions.)

Pablo Elías Rego:
Is not only something one has to do at the end of access concentration?


It's a good thing to practice any time one wishes to stabilize concentration. But enough theory. Try it! It's good!

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/24/12 12:40 PM as a reply to Nick Myers.
Nick Myers:
Ian And:

Yet, even beyond all this, what one needs to work on is the breaking down of the mental conditioning that has taken place over the years which has nurtured this illusion of self and permanence.

When one is able to see and understand these things as they actually are (in and through mindfulness of this truth), that recognition alone begins to chip away at this illusion in the psyche, and eventually one lets go of it, not to be bothered by it ever again.


That's what I'm actually having a bit of trouble with. I've had no-self realization. I guess the body hasn't made the recognition that this false sense of self is really only just a thousand and one different sensations happening in fast succession to create the illusion of something being there aside from... well sensations happening.

Alot was let go with the seeing, but there still seems to be residue left still. Which is probably why meditation became part of my practice again, and well I think Jhanas are pretty exciting tools to have to further progress of at least stream entry +

I actually wrote about no-self being like a rubber band ball below:

http://liberatedself.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/how-a-rubber-band-ball-frees-you-from-suffering/

If you care to read and add any advice on where you think I may be, it would be much appreciated Ian or Tommy...

Hi Nick,

I read your piece. Very well done and thought out. You've got the concepts down. Now all you need to do is internalize it; make it part of your everyday way of viewing things and events so as to not cause the arising of dukkha. I won't kid you, that won't be easy (breaking down the asavas, the underlying tendencies in the mind). But it can be done. With mindfulness.

There's no magic here. No pulling rabbits out of a hat! That's only for people who want to become mesmerized by illusion. You won't suddenly wake up someday and feel totally different without understanding why. It is usually a process of gradual awakening. One day at a time. And it begins with the breaking down of the ego and personal conceit. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. . . .

Everything that Gotama taught begins and ends with mindfulness (sati). Like a perfect circle. It all comes back to this one simple idea and practice. Be mindful of every second of every minute of every hour of every day. That mindfulness will preempt the underlying tendencies, eventually breaking them down. It can be a slow and gradual process. I keep harping on this, but people don't seem to get it. Mindfulness is one of the keys; and an important key at that.

I used to be similar to you: I looked into and read as much as I could about Zen and the way Zen teaches what it knows. I had the impression that Zen had found a short-cut (so to speak) way to awakening. That it was somehow a cut above the way that others were teaching this same material. But there were always more questions than answers. And I wasn't able to connect the dots between the terminology (in Sanskrit and Pali) and it's meaning so as to see what was really being said.

That's when I decided to go back to the source, Gotama, to see what he originally had to say about all this. When in doubt, go sit at the feet of the source in order to clarify what is being taught. I was at a point in my life where I didn't have any choice: I was 48 and I wasn't going to waste any more of my time reading about other people's perceptions and misperceptions about what Gotama taught. Time, life experience, and advancing age has a way of focusing the mind of the seeker of knowledge in a way that is really difficult to communicate to one who has not experience it. Be that as it may. . .

It took me two or three years to read through the translations from Pali of the Digha, Majjhima, and Samyutta Nikayas as well as one tenth of the Anguttara Nikaya (printed in a translated anthology). I also read the Dhammapada, the Sutta Nipata, the Itivuttaka, and the Udana. I not only read, but contemplated and took notes about what I was reading and contemplating. It was a slow but immensely rewarding experience. One that I recommend more people to have. Yet, in this fast moving "immediate gratification" seeking world, this is not something that everyone will take the time to do. And that is really sad. However that may be. . .

At the same time, I was meditating two and three times a day, for 45 minutes to an hour each sitting. Learning about and entering absorption (jhana) meditation, using that to help me gain more control over the mind and to reign in its habit of wandering. Meditation plays a vital role in assisting the practitioner to recondition the mind for being able to successfully establish mindfulness. Once mindfulness can become established, contemplation (real contemplation on phenomena) can take place. And this is when insight occurs. Insight into the teachings, insight into the workings of the mind, into almost anything you wish to focus upon.

Yet, when it comes to dealing with everyday matters, mindfulness is key. It helps you to see when the underlying tendency (asava) is arising so that you can consciously deal with it. Consciously dealing with these tendencies is key to breaking their grip on the mind. Like I said above, this is not always easy (although people want to believe that it is, that there is something magical in this process, yet they only delude themselves by thinking this way).

Part of the awakening process involves recognizing the way in which one has been deluding oneself for such a long time. One cannot be awakened, and continue to buy into such delusion. As it says in the Satipatthana suttas: "A monk, breathing in a long breath, he knows that he breathes in a long breath, and breathing out a long breath, he knows that he breathes out a long breath." And: "Again, a monk, when going forward or back, is clearly aware of what he is doing, in looking forward or back he is clearly aware of what he is doing..." It all reduces down to being aware and knowing what you are doing in each and every moment of the day. There is no getting away from this.

Awake means awake, here and now, each and every moment. This is not easy to accomplish. But it can be done. Taking one step at a time. Little by little a person will notice that they are mindful for longer and longer periods during the day. And with each passing day it can become a bit easier to maintain this mindfulness, with unbending diligence and patience towards practice.

In peace,
Ian

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/26/12 11:33 AM as a reply to fivebells ..
fivebells .:
Try it! It's good!


So my question was if this practice was a complement, rather than a replacement. I mean, doing that doesnt mean the end of a previous process, and the preceding step to another?

Another question is. What is the nature of this pleasant sensations? Is something physical that we have to find, or is a way of experiencing the already physical things we were looking at?

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/26/12 12:38 PM as a reply to Pablo Elías Rego.
It can go either way. It can be a complement, or a replacement. The key thing at this stage is to do it in the midst of access concentration.

It's whatever pleasant aspects arise in the experience of the breath. If you can't feel any at first, try resting the breath at the peak of each in/out breath, until the next phase starts of its own accord. There should be some pleasure associated with that.

RE: 1st Jhana and Access Concentration
Answer
8/27/12 5:23 PM as a reply to Ian And.
Thank you Ian for your story.

I really enjoyed reading where you came from and how you got to where you are now.

So what it comes down to it seems is to dig into some of the Buddhas words straight from the source. See what he's actually saying and continue my meditation practice in concentration. I feel that my concentration has been getting better over time. I can not engage my breath throughout the day which causes thoughts to subside when concentration is on the breath, walking, blinking, swallowing, etc.

It almost feels less stressful this way, however things are becoming evident (as I expect they would). As in sexual desire seems to be coming up more again, something I probably haven't really dealt with on a larger scale. I think in my younger years i had bypassed that somewhat as the desire for that dropped away for a long time and then I fell in love (thought I did) with a girl and then had that identity ripped away later by the break up after I had no-self realization haha.

I'm really intrigued by the feeling these memories bring up but can't quite put my finger yet on which sensations make up the complete sensation of these past triggers of memory. I know of there impermanent nature because bring back to the breathe they dissolve back into nothing only to come up later (which I'm guessing is because I can't pin point which sensations are which quite yet as they keep dissolving when I try and AMP them by trying to focus on the memory).

I have been doing concentration meditation everyday for now it seems to be 30 minutes (i started at 20). I'll probably have to order at least the middle discourses of the buddha and start reading it soon though. I'm hoping this is going to help me continue my Jhana training as well as internalizing no-self until it breaks through the other 2 characteristics.

I appreciate the help you've given me to this point Ian

Namaste.