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Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes

Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/8/12 1:24 PM
On my most recent 10 day retreat in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin I had opportunity to explore jhana in the context of body-scanning much more thoroughly than ever before. As is usual on retreat, odd stuff happens, and this one was no exception.

Though I am still battling with myself over whether to use an upcoming home retreat to learn the noting practices or not, I figure it might be helpful to others as well as myself to share a few observations about this practice here. I hope you find it useful/interesting.

The notes I made on my phone are incomplete, but kind of fun anyway. I'll comment on them a bit in a moment. Here they are:


Day 2
1st EQ w/ anapana

Day 3
Cycling from start to EQ. A&P bit more bouncy with better concentration.
Cycling through touch/sight/sound walking. After 1/2hr the garden becomes the "magic garden"! RO dominant later in day as I get tired.

Day 4
Further into EQ with anapana. RO taking 10mins. Sometimes scanning. Leaning to breath tho. Exploring self in head made me very uncomfy. Heart started to race. Felt scared. Not sure in high enough EQ. Could not perceive any watcher at one point. Just sensations. Did front/back of head trick. Very effective!

In anapana EQ bearing down upon the spot for all ur worth just gives headache. Loose, light and wide is a winner though. Expand to breathe thru whole body.
Moving to scanning just seems to make me fall back toward RO. Quiet sure I have experienced a kind of DN loop within low EQ.

I take it back. Jury still out. Problem is I don't know what else to do when breath seems to tight an object.
Headaches get stronger as day progresses. Certain not a nana symptom tho. Hangover form RO or concentration or both. May have to take it easier tomorrow. By 5pm I'm wiped!

Day 5
Noticed cause/effect first time ever while walking after breakfast. Oh, sound,image,story! Etc. explains why sat in weak 1st jhana in first sit before breakfast. Seems I start from scratch each morning.

A/P first group sit. Quickly thru DN into low EQ. Low EQ is my current base it seems.
Experimented with just watching the Jhanic like state after lunch. A kind of 3rd maybe. Seems real stable in a sensationfest unstable way. It does change eventually but this is the slow route. Scanning moves me forward. Still in low EQ. Next sit they will teach vipassana hehe...

Concentration headache dominates even low EQ (no, I'm certain it's not RO). Dry vipassana is unpleasant to say the least. Probably to late today, I've made no real progress. Let's hope a good sleep and a focus on jhana tomorrow will help. And do les sits! This is always my problem: trying to hard and burning out!

In break did jhana sweeping per kayagatasati Sutta. Bingo. First taste of EQ proper, almost no headache, very easy. Sweeping entire body in a breath.
No more dry work period! It's tiring and unprofitable. If cant get into jhana for some reason go for a walk.

Day 6
Couldn't sleep for vibrations last night. When I finally let them do there thing I had one of my classic "blip" moments complete with zooming magnification then a lump/lozenge of energy come up back of neck and gently explode. Then I could sleep. Not had one of these in weeks.

Cycling between RO and high eq today. Anapana sent me so high I was sure this was it. Noted mind states, decision, intention etc.
Playing it by ear.
Felt very happy/satisfied last couple days. Like all is well with world. Started to have funny thoughts aswell. Like the Buddha doing the told you so dance!
Teacher says the blips are impermanent!...

Day 7
4:30 sit: 0-EQ = 15mins. Unbelievable. Anapana in the mornings, scanning after lunch works best. Tight focus to spin up the mind then wide focuss to not get over concentrated.
Very strong, clean 3rd jhana. The strand of experience to kick into is located in the third eye region (doing by pure feeling rather than breath). Need to confirm.

Is 4th what is left when this pleasure disappears? It would seem so. Sweeping from this vantage point was very good. Particularly for pre-lunch!

Good sweeping within jhana before break. Lot of investigation of where self is but maybe my "high eq" is not as high as I'd Like to think? No spontaneous formless realms for eg.


On this course Day 8 is really the last serious day and as you can see I didnt make any notes. It was much of the same though, complicated somewhat by another night of nearly no sleep.

One thing that I barely noted but was truly awesome on this course was my daily mindfulness. I noted touch/sight/sound while walking round the garden several times a day used the breath and sensations while eating. Did everything to stay present. It was very "enlivening" and conducive to a peaceful mind when it came time to sit once more.

On coming home we had a major loss in the family and practice was altered at the kind advice of friends here on DhO. Now, some time later my practice seems to be back on track. I am only managing 2 sits a day though (i have done 3 most of this year) as the kids are on summer holidays and time is a bit scarce.

I've found body scanning within jhana to be hugely beneficial. I hope to post a bit more about that shortly. On this retreat I really got to map out the Equanimity territory quite well. In retrospect my practice has seemed to work like this:

1st retreat: Break A&P without knowing it
2nd: Explore DN without realising it.
Discover MCTB / DhO
3rd: Break DN, spend 2 days exploring EQ
4th: (different centre) Stagnate a bit.
Current: Explore EQ fairly thoroughly

This is why I have a bit of a dilemma as to whether I should use my upcoming week of home retreat to satisfy the nagging doubt that I shoudl switch to noting. If my practice continues as per the above, I should be in with a good shot of breaking EQ next course/retreat... (but then what if it's just more of the same and I miss the opportunity to learn noting under semi-retreat conditions --for free!) Arrrrrrgh!

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/8/12 1:31 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
What do you hope to achieve through learning the noting technique?

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/8/12 1:50 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Kayagatasati is sick.

I'm not familiar with body-scanning, but in the past I had tried the 31 body parts meditation, an asubha-sanna, essentially.

Good luck with that.

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/8/12 2:09 PM as a reply to Liam O'Sullivan.
[quote=Liam O'Sullivan]What do you hope to achieve through learning the noting technique?

2 things:

  • Better mindfulness during daily life - though I rather imagine it may be as hard to remember to note as it is to remain with sensations...
  • Better understanding of mind states - though I have dabbled with mixing techniques for this, particularly when in EQ


All with the goal of reachng SE of course.

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/8/12 2:12 PM as a reply to James Yen.
James Yen:
Kayagatasati is sick.

I'm not familiar with body-scanning, but in the past I had tried the 31 body parts meditation, an asubha-sanna, essentially.

Good luck with that.


I've not done that practice yet James so can't comment. I can tell you that there is a lot more to body scanning than meets the eye though. U Ba Khin taught very differently to how Goenka and others now teach in his lineage it would seem. I will post more on this at a later time I hope.

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/8/12 2:42 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Very strong, clean 3rd jhana. The strand of experience to kick into is located in the third eye region (doing by pure feeling rather than breath). Need to confirm.


Could you expand on this? I think I'm in a similar spot in my practice (low EQ at the moment) and I've noticed a tendency for my attention to go to the 3rd eye area. I'll be doing noting or anapana, and it seems like I'm doing too much work and my attention just drifts to the 3rd eye and I slip into a very stable jhana-like state with pleasurable pulsing sensations in the 3rd eye. Is this at all what you're talking about?

I've also noticed that I can move my focus to other chakras, especially the throat area, after I'm in this state and the experience takes on a different character. The throat is associated with a lot more DN-like sensations, discordant buzzing feelings in the periphery and what not, while the 3rd eye seems to be associated with EQ sensations. I find this all pretty interesting because before I hit EQ I wasn't really able to feel chakras or energy at all. (Well, except during my A&P event.)

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/9/12 1:39 AM as a reply to Ben H.
Hi Ben.

This turned out to be non-repeatable for me, though it was so clear, so obvious at the time! Like you, chakras meant nothing to me until fairly recently. These days most of the pleasure associated with the various jhanic like states I encounter in meditation are associated with the chakras.

The way I move through various states is one of two techniques (or sometimes a combination of both):
  • "Feel" the flow of experience in the body and "tune in" to a jhana factor(s) to increase it
  • Use the breath or body scanning to force a change if I cant work out how to move forward - basically if Im in 1st/2nd territory I will do a few sweeps of the body or anapana which will first increase the current jhana factors but then often reveal other strands of experience that can be explored.


At the time, the "strand of experience" I tuned into did not emenate from the third eye region but seemed absolutely locked to it. Like an open flow of energy running through rather than from that region.

Ben:

I've also noticed that I can move my focus to other chakras, especially the throat area, after I'm in this state and the experience takes on a different character.


Yep. That sounds very similar doesn't it? We may be describing the same thing here Ben.

Theres more to say on this subject but it will have to wait for another post. Hope that's useful in the meantime!

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/9/12 2:38 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Baggy Old Saggy Old Cat:
Better mindfulness during daily life - though I rather imagine it may be as hard to remember to note as it is to remain with sensations...

I've got a few suggestions as to various experiments you could do to ensure you note. I've done some of these intentionally and some just make sense from experience.

- Start off with mindfulness only of mental activity. You'll be used to bare awareness of the body so the contrast might help.

- Do very choiceless noting of whatever pleasurably distracts your attention, again as a contrast but this time to the more systematic nature of scanning. I like this one as it is uplifting of mood, though you have to be careful not to lose yourself in the pleasantness.

- Conversely, just note gross physical sensations, but not repetitive ones like walking that tend to trick you into mantra-like false noting.

- Play more systematic noting 'games', as Mahasi style 'whatever arises' noting might feel unusual. For example, play the 'cause and effect' game and cotton onto a thought. Note the following thoughts, or plunge into the body and see what's... co-arising, I suppose you could say?

- On the other hand, play the 'six sense doors' game and intentionally hit each. What are you touching? Then... what are you smelling? Then... what are you thinking... etc.

- Use it as a psychological tool and try to pick apart a negative thought pattern that reoccurs often. That way you have a specific 'target'. You'll notice your progress as you 'hit' the note more quickly, start making multiple notes as you notice the thought pattern is made up of multiple sensations, etc.

- Start noting somewhere extremely busy, such as on a train, and just go for it. Don't worry about how good your technique is, just try to note as fast as possible. This produces good moment-to-moment concentration and reduces the amount of time there is for derailing thoughts or, I would assume, dropping into body-scanning habits.

- If you find yourself scanning (as I do at least once per sit) then either note 'scanning', or allow the scanning habit to guide your attention as you note 'feeling [left leg] feeling [right leg] feeling [right arm]'...

- Choose very specific notes, 'pondering' instead of 'thinking' etc. to get you used to 'tagging' sensations.

RE: Bagpuss' Kayagatasati Notes
Answer
8/9/12 10:28 AM as a reply to Liam O'Sullivan.
Baggy Old Saggy Old Cat:


But Emily loved him...

- Start off with mindfulness only of mental activity. You'll be used to bare awareness of the body so the contrast might help.


I've tried this. It works quite well. Using Shinzen's simple 'feel', 'image', 'talk' labels work very well in conjunction with:


On the other hand, play the 'six sense doors' game and intentionally hit each. What are you touching? Then... what are you smelling? Then... what are you thinking... etc.


...which is my most favourite walking exercise. I generally limit it to this though: seeing, hearing, touching, moving through space as per some dhamma talk I got a link to from here on some long forgotten thread. I should try to find it, it's agood stuff..

Im thinking if I integrate noting at all (that is still very much in the balance) it will be in addition to, rather than instead of scanning. Mindfulness of the body suits me very well I feel, as I have a lot of pain to work with at times and limited vision which tends to make at least my sense of touch and hearing quite well developed.

The other exercises you listed look very cool too. Particularly "as a psychological tool" though I wonder if it might be a little eaiey to get caught up in the content.

Cheers,

Jhana Factors
Answer
8/14/12 11:34 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
As I settle down in my practice after my last retreat I find myself once more leaning more and more towards my anapanasati practice. This is not to say that the body sweeping does not have a place in my practice, but the breath seems most appropriate, most of the time.

For some time now I've been able to manipulate some jhana factors. Whether we call this jhana or not is debatable, but the end result is one of much steadied concentration and greater equanimity with whatever meditation brings up --particularly the unpleasantness of the Dark Night.

For me, it works like this:

  • I lay down to meditate and within a breath or two joy starts to arise.
  • I either drop the breath and focus purely on the joy, or split between the two
  • The pleasure increases. Sometimes to astonishing levels, sometimes not.
  • The pleasure changes. A more bodily pleasure becomes dominant.
  • Often the joy drops and the bodily pleasure remains. This is most often experienced if I go through the A&P / Dissolution rather than starting off right in the middle of the DN.
  • IF the pleasure/concentration is really strong it can carry me right through Re-observation with little fuss. If it isn't, at some point along the way I'll realise I've lost it and the unpleasantness will be much worse. Attention will also be much worse.
  • Sometimes, but not too often the pleasure will drop but the concentration remain. It's not a mind blowing state, but it's a very good place to be (while in low-mid Equanimity).


I've been reading "Mindfulness in Plain English" today. It's funny, I had this book when I first started to sit and put it to one side as "too basic" but more than a year later I see that its an awesome book emoticon

Some questions that I ponder a bit..

  • Is the joy that arises "the sign" --im very un-visual. I wonder if I get the sign as a feeling rather than visual nimita --having said that, if I focus long enough I do get plenty of light arise in the form of "pre dawn light" so...
  • Are these experiences merely concentrated vipassana stages? (they certainly relate well to their corresponding vipassana-jhanas re MCTB )
  • Is this worthwhile practice?

RE: Jhana Factors
Answer
8/14/12 1:30 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:


  • Is the joy that arises "the sign" --im very un-visual. I wonder if I get the sign as a feeling rather than visual nimita --having said that, if I focus long enough I do get plenty of light arise in the form of "pre dawn light" so...
  • Are these experiences merely concentrated vipassana stages? (they certainly relate well to their corresponding vipassana-jhanas re MCTB )
  • Is this worthwhile practice?


It all sounds good to me...at least from my limited perspective. My two cents re the above:

1st bullet point: I worried about the light for a long time. I thought I needed the light to come, get strong and turn into a nimitta of the sorts one hears about in Pa Auk style descriptions. I'd wait for the light to come, then turn amy attention toward said light, only to then have it vanish (oh shit!). So for now don't worry about the light--stay with the feeling, it's your key to the way in. I've found that the light builds over time, and eventually it gets to the point where I can look at it without its immediatley fading, but until then just keep going with the feeling and let the light take care of itself.


2nd & 3rd bullet points:To the extent you are not absorbed, they are concentrated vipassna stages, and getting to equanimity via these stages is where you want to be, as higher EQ is the lauching pad for attaing path (not that this has happened to me yet), so I'd say yes, it is a worthwhile practice.

Also, one thing you may want to experiment with once at the "The pleasure increases. Sometimes to astonishing levels, sometimes not." point you cite above, is then gently taking the attention back to the anapana spot. I've found this to be a good way to get deeper into absorption (that is if getting into deeper absorption is something you want to do).

I hope this helps.

Eric

RE: Jhana Factors
Answer
8/15/12 6:29 AM as a reply to Eric B.
Hi Eric, thanks for that. Good stuff.

Im right with you on returning to the anapana spot from time to time. I completely missed that in my notes, but have been doing it for quite a while. I also lightly body scan from time to time as per the instructions in the kayagatasati sutta. Returning to the spot will deepen the absorption as you say, but it's also a very good way to "unstick" -- by unstick, I mean that sometimes it seems I am kind of fixed in a particular state and it is not "moving" --this kind of dynamic jhana practice means that the factors are constantly changing, are impermanent. Returning to the spot can get things moving again.

And funny thing is, right after reading your post I went and did my evening sit and sailed into 4th jhana territory through exactly this technique emoticon I'd been bumping RO all day, and this was just the push I needed.

There's a fine balance with this though. Return to the spot for too long and the factors can decrease. Real care needs to be shown during the DN to keep that pleasure alive. Once it's gone, it's pretty hard to get back!

I suppose my body scanning practice is still alive and well in daily sits, it's just that now I do a kind of "loose" full body scan, or loose/fast part by part scan within the jhana - this isn't always necessary as full body awareness is part of the way I have learnt to cultivate these states --once the factors are up and running the body is alive in the same way as if I'd spent the last hour scanning laboriously from part to part. This seems like good practice to me.

Again there is a balance to be struck though. Scan to tightly, or for too long and the jhana factors drop. Too loosely and it has no effect. If you can get that "whole body awareness" thing going though, so every single part of you is alive with the pleasure AND you can note the bazillions of tiny sensations winking in and out of existence it's a good place to be.

RE: Jhana Factors
Answer
8/16/12 1:05 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:
Hi Eric, thanks for that. Good stuff.

Im right with you on returning to the anapana spot from time to time. I completely missed that in my notes, but have been doing it for quite a while. I also lightly body scan from time to time as per the instructions in the kayagatasati sutta. Returning to the spot will deepen the absorption as you say, but it's also a very good way to "unstick" -- by unstick, I mean that sometimes it seems I am kind of fixed in a particular state and it is not "moving" --this kind of dynamic jhana practice means that the factors are constantly changing, are impermanent. Returning to the spot can get things moving again.



BTG, that's a good point about returning to the spot when stuck. I haven't used it that way, but it makes perfect sense now that you mention it. Yesterday I was stuck between 3rd & 4th jhana in an RO sort of "mindcramp". Ikept difusing my awarness out to the whole body, but that didn't seem to do much. Eventually I did drift up to 4th briefly. Next tiem that happens I'll have go back to the spot.

Not Clinging
Answer
8/17/12 7:40 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
This morning, not feeling too well (caffeine withdrawal as I prep for a "water fast") I did an hour of anapanasati, mindfulness of breathing...

I think I got a little insight into what it really means to "abide independent, not clinging to anything in the world" as per the Satipatthana sutta. This is not new to me intellectually, or even practically when in Equanimity. What was new was being able to really "get into it", right the way through the Dark Night...

As i lightly focused on the anapana spot, mindful of the whole body, streams of sensations, expansions, contractions, energy went past. As they were noticed, they were let go of. Rather than trying to expand the pleasant or concentrative strands of experience i just watched the pass away. Down down down.... it was like a gentle, interesting decent that showed no sign of ever ending. When the Re-observation headache came in, it was let go of. Of course it stayed for some time but it was far less than it can often be, and quite short lived.

Then the delivery guy knocked the door to deliver some new walking shoes. Heh!

Practice
Answer
8/20/12 6:04 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Today I rode the feelings of "billowy swirly pleasury floaty" up to a state resembling 3rd-ish jhana (hehe) where the sensations on the skin where very delicately shimmery, cool and pleasant. It's a little cold today and I think there was some physical shivering a bit and that sensations is absolutely delicious.

The pleasure faded and the focus becomes a kind of open/blank/concentrated/quiet quality of experience. The bodily sensations become very uniform, subtle, easy to sweep through. I built this up by alternately focusing on the above quiet quality, doing a slow full body sweep and "sinking in" to the sensations. This resulted in something almost bland (but in good way). Like exiting the jungle and starting to walk across the desert. Nothing much to see or do. In the end I just swept up and down the body at varying speeds, occasionally stopping to "sink in" and see what had changed.

That state could be anything, but I'd guess it was equanimity based on current experience. I'll have a chance to practice a bit more over the next 8 days as my family are all off to see the grandparents --but im going to do a water fast as well, so maybe that will make practice a bit tough. We will see...

Swirly Thing Alert!
Answer
8/31/12 5:58 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Last night my concentration was very good. I stayed with anapana and really worked on sticking to that spot like glue. I started out most likely in low equanimity and realised I was probably in EQ proper as the quality of vibrations through the body shifted gear. A description I read recently here.


The close similarity between the vipassanā meditation taught in the tradition of U Ba Khin and the instructions given in the Dhyānasamādhi Sūtra finds further corroboration in the simile given in the Chinese discourse, which compares the pervasion of the whole body with awareness to water that enters into sand. This imagery fits well with a stage reached after sustained practice of the U Ba Khin method, when awareness has been refined to the point of enabling the meditator to experience sensations throughout the body during a single act of scanning the body. The tradition refers to this as “sweeping” the body in a “free flow”, expressions that reflect how awareness passes in a “sweeping” or “flowing” manner through the whole body within the time period it takes to breath in or to breath out.


This is not the first time I have experienced this, but it's quite a bit different to being able to sweep the body at speed across the skin. This experience really feels like water flowing through sand, through ALL your body. Inside and out. Anyway, I digress....

So as has often happened in the past when I am in or around Equanimity nana / 4th jhana territory my visuals (of which i rarely notice anythign at all) start flickering to deep gorgeous blue and then back again. I concentrate more and the blueness starts to settle and stabilise. But rather than seeing a pinprick nimita briefly then losing the moment, I start to notice that there are all these swirly, nebulous gaseous, misty type movements happening and that this blueness has depth, and space. Im sure when people talk about the quality of "space" in relation to these stages they do not mean planets and stuff... but that's what I was experiencing.

It was pretty good stuff.

Anyone have experience with that kind of thing?

RE: Swirly Thing Alert!
Answer
8/31/12 9:04 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
I always thought that i was seeing fiery red comets flying slowly through my red tinted visual field while doing Candle flame meditation and reaching lowEQ.

No One Home...
Answer
9/29/12 6:36 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
My practice has been dominated by an extended period in Equanimity. I often go through the DN to get there but it is mostly quick and done in one sit. Sometimes when I'm sick / tired I stay in Reobservation. Not to often though, and the Dark Night has really lost its teeth these days. RO used to be just awful! These days it's pretty cool, kind of interesting and almost fun to work with. Weird eh?

After a few days where I thought I had started the inevitable slide back into the DN due to a radical diet change and a few nights of poor sleep I've been not only back in Equanimity, but experiencing things that seem like entirely new territory to me.

I am mostly doing anapanasati with occasional full body sweeps to heighten awareness of impermanence of sensations in the body. Here's a description of my last sit:

Within 2-3 seconds I feel myself enter a 4th jhana like state that could easily just be access concentration I guess as later in the sit it widens further, concepts of space between sensations gets more definable and the fine visual snow in front of my closed eyes streams and swirls and changes. I concentrate on "letting go" and begin almost immediately to concentrate on the nature of change inherent in everything I am experiencing. I try to not interfere with the deepening of concentration as I focus on the body-mind-swirly-energy thing and there are subtle but distinct "shifts" in perception that come maybe a half dozen times in 40mins.

I try to really focus not on increasing, not on dwelling, but on impermanence. On letting go because there is nothing to cling to. More shifts. The more I let go the "deeper" I drop. There are no thoughts, just stillness and the ever changing body-mind-enerty thing.

I occasionally switch to focus on no-self. I can see that I am not controlling these sensations. They are not me. More shifts. I try to do both anicca and anatta at the same time. This is harder but sometimes quite doable. More shifts...

By the time the bell goes my bodily sensations are just a mass of streaming champaign bubbles so fine they almost defy observation. I lay there on the bed and realise that this organism is blinking, laying, aware of the touch of air, clothes, bed. That occasional thoughts drift passed (through?) it BUT that there is no "me" there. It's just all empty sensations. As I notice this the vibrations start to speed up again but its really time to get ready for bed...

The feeling of "no one home" isn't entirely new but its the strongest I've ever felt it. I would presume this is a good sign. I hope so. It felt like I was doing this right last night. I don't think I have really concentrated on the 3C's this well until I read Nick's recent explanation. It still seems to simple but it certainly seems to be doing something...

RE: No One Home...
Answer
9/29/12 6:48 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:


The feeling of "no one home" isn't entirely new but its the strongest I've ever felt it. I would presume this is a good sign. I hope so. It felt like I was doing this right last night. I don't think I have really concentrated on the 3C's this well until I read Nick's recent explanation. It still seems to simple but it certainly seems to be doing something...


I'd say it's a good sign indeed. I'd keep honing those discerning skills as you are already doing. It is pretty simple, huh?

RE: No One Home...
Answer
9/29/12 10:10 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Indeed. Thanks Nick!