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Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville

Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/28/12 10:20 PM
You can see my other thread for where I was at pre-retreat.

Day 0: Feeling kinda ordinary, but also having lots of difficult memories flash into mind and then twinges of "negative" emotions coming after the thoughts and memories. Somewhat unpleasant, but also happy to be on retreat.

Day 1-3: A combination of feeling quite ordinary (like a sorta "this meditation isn't doing anything. It's not working" kind of regularness.) along with dark night type of difficulties (misery, despair, painful memories, etc.)

I was noting away for these days, doing my practice, but I had very few moments of any type of concentrated state of mind or any altered states or anything like that. It felt like I could just walk away and I'd be the same as when I arrived. This led to many thoughts of doubt in the mind, but I quite stricly noted them as "doubt, doubt..." etc. I think my noting was pretty strong, obviously not continuous 24 hours a day, because the mind would wander, with lapses of concentration. But, bringing the mind back to the object was pretty quick and easy.

I felt a lot of pain, anger, misery, disgust, hatred, depression, despair, hopelessness, and lots of painful memories. Lots of thought loops struggling to try to figure things out.

While at the same time, I'd say that these thought loops are quite noticably less "sticky" than they were in previous retreat. This seems like a very tangible benefit because the thought loop would last a shorter duration before letting go, and the level of strain or tension associated with such thought loops was considerably less... leading to less suffering.

Nonetheless, there were thoughts of suicide, deep depression and despair and quite a bit of hopeless agonizing suffering.

Day 4: Vipassana day...
This is quite typical for me on day 4 of a Goenka retreat, I will get very tense leading up to the 90 minute vipassana instructions, and then afterward relax into a much greater state of ease. Things turned around by evening, and I was feeling quite calm, and present

Day 5: First day of reaping some rewards
At this point, it became clear that the practice had been working to some degree. The negativity of the previous 4 days appeared whispy like waking up from a nightmare or dream. In this was the insight of anicca. Effemeral, changing phenomena.

I was quite at ease, and continued to note very consistently throughout the day. It required roughly the same amount of effort to continue to apply the mind, and not drift off into thought. With each retreat, I learn more about right effort. I know that CCC is fond of claiming that MCTB has overemphasized effort, but it is clear that a very very strong and determined effort is necessary. The problem, as I see it, is that the effort is not at all what I thought it was. And, I don't know if there was any way i would have known what proper effort would be without doing tons of practice. The effort now appears as a sort of peaceful vigilance. It is completely without strain, striving, judgement, craving, or anything. It is simply sitting by the mind like a parent sits by a restless child. When the child wanders, bring it back. When the child wanders, bring it back. But, there is never a sense of fighting the child. I experience this now during the difficult (Dark Night) stages, as well as the more peaceful stages. The drama of an inner fight has so greatly diminished since I began practicing three years ago.

Day 6: Another painful day, but not as bad as before.
Again, I was clouded with doubt, confusion, stuckness, etc. I noted it with strong determination. There were perhaps some thoguhts of suicide and despair, but the overall tone wasn't as tense as before.

Day 7: Perhaps the deepest into peace and stillness
Quite at ease and calm. I continued to work to keep the mind directly at the moment of experience. I got some sense of things synching up, but everytime I put attention on trying to allow the mind to synch with itself, this usually led eventually to wandering thoughts and daydreaming. I got better results just from patient noting. There were many insights on this day. I was surprised to learn so much about the nature of thoughts and what was there which I had never seen before.

Day 8: Started to have more thoughts about going home and finishing the retreat
My mind became more restless. It wasn't nearly as painful as the first three days, but I still had some difficulty. I continued to note diligently throughout the day.

Day 9: Mind was now very restless with wanting to get out of there, wanting to go home, planning for what I would do when I left, etc.
I continued to note it all quite diligently.


Overall, it doesn't seem too dissimilar to the last dozen or so retreats that I've been on. I learn a ton of stuff, many insights, and I come out a changed person for sure. The mind becomes less "sticky" and more clear. No idea how any of it relates to any of the maps.

I guess what I can relate to is similar to the discussion in the Hurricane Ranch podcasts. I notice that there are all sorts of phenomena in the mind which can be noticed and thus "disembedded" so to speak. It seems that my practice is like a systematic deconstruction of everything that arises and passes in experience, breaking it down to observe all the little sensations and phenomena. However, I don't know how this would relate to the supposed stream entry/fruition. According to the Hurricane Ranch discussion, it seems the total deconstruction of the entire field is associated with 4th path. So, what then is the threshold for 1st path? Is there some quantity of experiences which must be seen clearly in order to advance beyond fruition? It seems like this process will go on for quite some time, as it proceeds in small chunks at a time.

Another note, I still haven't become aware of some of the things which I guess become apparent in the equanimity nyana.... like "space." I still don't know what space is or how I would note it. When in a more equanimous state, I note things like calm, silence, quiet, peacefulness, looking, investigating, clarity. I also note things that aren't as clear, like: blankness, movement, change, shifting.

Although I don't know what equanimity nyana is supposed to be like or when fruition would come.... it still seems to me like it would take years more of practice to be able to get to what I imagine that state would be like.

I imagine it being like the whole mind is arising and passing without fragmentation as formations. (never seen a formation). I imagine there being a strong equanimity and concentration in noticing the formations, and I imagine the mind observing in this way for some time before slowing down and shutting off for a blip (fruition.) Is that anything like how it happens? I don't know. Sometimes it seems like people describe it more like they were just ho-hum going about their business, doing whatever and all of a sudden: blip! And, if that's the case, then it seems more like it'd be a matter of luck than of years of practice.

Anyway, I don't really do it for the maps (which seem to be somewhat overemphasized here), so I don't need this to get too heavily into a discussion of maps and fruitions and what not.

The bottom line is that I learned so much more about how my mind works, and in this process of learning, there is greater freedom. I guess, for now, that is enough to keep me going back.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/28/12 10:22 PM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
By the way, I have no idea how someone could go through three days worth of retreat-style dark nighting while doing at-home practice. Stretched out, that'd be like maybe a couple weeks of extreme dark nighting while meditating a couple hours a day. Crazy?

I may just stick to vipassana on retreats and do more actualist practice when I have to be functioning in the world.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 3:44 AM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
Although I don't know what equanimity nyana is supposed to be like or when fruition would come.... it still seems to me like it would take years more of practice to be able to get to what I imagine that state would be like.


Why do you feel it would take years of more practice to reach equanimity from dark night or to get fruition? You are already there. Just sit daily enough to get into equanimity and stay there. If you're sitting in equanimity for weeks on end you'll eventually get a fruition. Increase your daily sitting time to stay in equanimity so it is your baseline. If you don't fall out of equanimity (or only once in a while), you will definitely be getting a fruition in the near future.

Day 6: Another painful day, but not as bad as before.
Again, I was clouded with doubt, confusion, stuckness, etc. I noted it with strong determination. There were perhaps some thoguhts of suicide and despair, but the overall tone wasn't as tense as before.

Day 7: Perhaps the deepest into peace and stillness
Quite at ease and calm. I continued to work to keep the mind directly at the moment of experience. I got some sense of things synching up, but everytime I put attention on trying to allow the mind to synch with itself, this usually led eventually to wandering thoughts and daydreaming. I got better results just from patient noting. There were many insights on this day. I was surprised to learn so much about the nature of thoughts and what was there which I had never seen before.


This is dark night -> equanimity (stuckness, confusion, despair -> peacefulness stillness).

You're already there! Don't wait for another retreat! By that time you'll be back in the dark night, then you'll meditate up to equanimity again and then the retreat will end before you get fruition again.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 4:22 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom A Vitale:

This is dark night -> equanimity (stuckness, confusion, despair -> peacefulness stillness).


Obviously just speculating here, but don't you think this could also be A&P?
got better results just from patient noting. There were many insights on this day. I was surprised to learn so much about the nature of thoughts and what was there which I had never seen before.


Although I experienced A&P several times as mind blowing, it also came several times as a kind of deep calm and immense relaxation.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 6:50 AM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
Daniel Johnson:
It is simply sitting by the mind like a parent sits by a restless child.


This is a nice description and it reminds me...

I used to have a Grandma who would sit nearby me, and whatever mood I was in, whatever my behaviour, whatever profanity came out of my mouth, she would just sit peacefully and attend without judgment. There was no effort to change me. That's a real gift and I'll never forget it.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 10:29 AM as a reply to C C C.
C C C:
I used to have a Grandma who would sit nearby me, and whatever mood I was in, whatever my behaviour, whatever profanity came out of my mouth, she would just sit peacefully and attend without judgment. There was no effort to change me. That's a real gift and I'll never forget it.


Yeah, and in a way, don't you think that requires more effort than being a scolding parent, or a neglectful parent?

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 10:47 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom A Vitale:
Why do you feel it would take years of more practice to reach equanimity from dark night or to get fruition?


Obviously, I don't know where I am or how long it would take to reach some place which I have no idea what it is.

But, going on what you wrote.... getting to equanimity in daily sits and staying there for a few weeks until fruition. I think that would take years more practice. Eqaunimity (if that's what it is) comes and goes as it pleases. It's not some thing I can just go into. It's not like I just sit and start at the A&P and rise up through the dark night, get into equanimity... etc. like other people describe. It's more like: I sit, and a bunch of stuff happens, and then the sit is over. And maybe some peaceful stuff happened or maybe some not so peaceful stuff happened. And, not in any particular order that I can discern.

Tom A Vitale:
You are already there. Just sit daily enough to get into equanimity and stay there. If you're sitting in equanimity for weeks on end you'll eventually get a fruition. Increase your daily sitting time to stay in equanimity so it is your baseline. If you don't fall out of equanimity (or only once in a while), you will definitely be getting a fruition in the near future.


I like your enthusiasm. I've been told this one so many times now, and I've done just as you say. Keep sitting in daily life.

The idea that I might not fall out of equanimity (or only once in a while) is awesome. I'm not sure what kind of meditation prodigy could achieve such a feat, but I guess maybe I don't have the genetics for it.

I don't even stay in equanimity while on a retreat, meditating 12 hours a day. How much can I increase my daily sitting time to do it while not on a retreat?

Tom A Vitale:
You're already there! Don't wait for another retreat! By that time you'll be back in the dark night, then you'll meditate up to equanimity again and then the retreat will end before you get fruition again.


Definitely, over the last few days since the retreat, I've spent a lot of time in the Dark Night, with perhaps a few dips into equanimity here and there. (assuming that's what these pleasant and unpleasant states are). So, I don't think I am "right there." And, like I said, I've been told this so many times now... and I've tried the advice to continue sitting at home, and basically the momentum eventually fizzles and the dark night material just makes life so much more difficult to function.

Maybe this is the dark night talking, but it is difficult when people here who obviously have a gift for meditative achievement give advice as though everyone else will also be a prodigy. For whatever reason, it seems that my mind is not as skillful at meditation. To me, this seems normal: not everyone has the genetics to play in the NBA, or to run a 4 minute mile. I have been fortunate to have genetic strengths in so many areas of life. Clearly, I make more progress than some people who meditate, but I think the DhOers some how neglect to see that they have a talent. I believe the Buddha referred to it as "dust in the eyes." Although, he probably would've accounted for it more by past lives and karma than genetics. (anyway, a small rant, but would love to hear what people think about it.)

By the way, I hope this doesn't come off as though I'm rejecting your advice. I appreciate the advice and appreciate all the comments. I was mostly trying to explain and clarify things.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 11:18 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Hi Daniel,

Tom:-

You're already there! Don't wait for another retreat! By that time you'll be back in the dark night, then you'll meditate up to equanimity again and then the retreat will end before you get fruition again.

Tom has a good point here, if you can reach EQ, it would be a good idea to continue gently doing vipassana at home until it becomes your cutting edge. In the process you may even learn to breeze through the DN every time.

I take it you've been through this many times over, and heard it all before, but just in case...! Do you do much concentration practice? I suggest you take some time to do dedicated samatha practice and really develop it, then when you are more confident, have a samatha session directly before you try vipassana. Dry insight can hurt sometimes, but a little jhana beforehand really seems to grease the gears and make the whole experience more pleasant.

The DN doesn't have to last forever or be a living nightmare. After I first passed the A&P, I spent a few weeks in pure samatha, mainly because I was scared of the DN, but then when I finally sat for vipassana, I made it right throught to EQ the first time. Once you've made it there, just keep gently doing it over and over: the mind knows how to do it now.

I really admire your fortitude in persisting when many others would have long ago given up. Good luck, keep it up.

Dodge.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 12:02 PM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
Have you ever worked directly with a teacher in the Mahasi tradition? It seems like going to repeated Goenka retreats and not getting stream entry is par for the course - although you were doing noting.

I kind of doubt that you innately lack talent. That might explain why some get it in 6 months and some in 5 years, but 13 years.... Something just doesn't add up. I wonder if an experienced teacher working with you first-hand could figure it out.

Are there other instances of people practicing so doggedly for so long without fruition? (I really hope this doesn't turn into a Vipassana-bashing thread.)

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 12:36 PM as a reply to Some Guy.
J B:
Have you ever worked directly with a teacher in the Mahasi tradition?

Well, I don't know if Kenneth Folk counts, but I did phone calls with him for a couple months. I also spoke with Dan Ingram on the phone and he gave me some good tips.

J B:
I kind of doubt that you innately lack talent. That might explain why some get it in 6 months and some in 5 years, but 13 years.... Something just doesn't add up. I wonder if an experienced teacher working with you first-hand could figure it out.


To be clear, I haven't been doing noting practice for 13 years. I crossed the A&P without doing any meditation at all, just eyes open contemplation of life's mysteries. For about 5 years, I did all sorts of practices like yoga, tai chi, thai style anapanasati, self-help. I probably tried out over 50 different traditions. I narrowly escaped at least 3-5 cults. After about 5 years, I decided to focus more on life skills and did more self-help and psychological transformational work for the next 5 years. I rarely meditated during that time. Then, I did a vipassana retreat and for the last 3-4 years i've been doing vipassana. For about 2 years, I did Goenka only... and I think that took me from DN to equanimity (my guess). Then, I tried a few other vipassana traditions and have been doing noting for the last year or two.

I also wonder if an experienced teacher could help, but Kenneth told me that it wasn't working and suggested I find another teacher. I don't really have the money to afford a teacher, and I don't know really know who I would turn to who teaches this stuff. I asked tarin a few months ago and he told me to go to Daniel Ingram. So, we had a phone call which was helpful.

I'm open to advice.

But, on the other hand.... why is it so hard to believe that it might be accounted for by a certain predisposition? Everyone is different, why is it that we would expect any one particular person to follow any particular pattern?

On my retreat, I spoke with one guy and he said that for 20 years, he had been getting into some type of shamatha state where he was blown out with white light, completely absorbed. For 20 years, he said he wandered through traditions, never being able to make progress, because he would just get blown out by the absorption and nothing would change. Then, he found Goenka and has started making progress. But, I can't even imagine ever getting to a state where I could be absorbed into white light in such a deep state of concentration - maybe in another 20 years? He obviously had a talent for absorption which i currently lack, but he lacked the ability for doing insight. So, it was an interesting example of how different all of us are.


J B:
Are there other instances of people practicing so doggedly for so long without fruition?


Not that I know of. I would be interested to hear if there are. Of course, there are also the possibilities that I am:
1) Not past the A&P... and still in the first three nyanas
2) Well past stream entry and lost in some later path.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 12:51 PM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
Dodge E Knees:
Tom has a good point here, if you can reach EQ,


I'm not sure, but as far as I know, I can't reach EQ. EQ happens sometimes. I don't seem to have any ability to reach it. Not that I'm aware of.

Dodge E Knees:
it would be a good idea to continue gently doing vipassana at home until it becomes your cutting edge.


I'm not sure what you mean by cutting edge, but from my understanding of the term, EQ is my cutting edge already. So, what do you mean by that?


Dodge E Knees:
In the process you may even learn to breeze through the DN every time.


I suppose this may happen eventually. It is certainly easier now than it was 2 years ago. Still, it's no breeze. And, this process of learning to breeze through the DN doesn't seem to be progressing at any incredible rate that I would expect breeziness in the next few weeks. Maybe in a few years it could be a breeze? It doesn't appear to just be some thing that can be willed into existence.

Dodge E Knees:
Do you do much concentration practice?

No, I don't currently do concentration practice. I have practiced such things in the past.

Dodge E Knees:
I suggest you take some time to do dedicated samatha practice and really develop it,

I suppose that could be another option. My experience shows that samatha practice aggravates the Dark Night just as much as vipassana. Anyone else notice this? At any rate, how long would it take to develop it? A couple years? I've put many hundreds of hours into samatha, and don't feel like I have yet developed it into a practical tool that I can use for any practical purpose.

Dodge E Knees:
Dry insight can hurt sometimes, but a little jhana beforehand really seems to grease the gears and make the whole experience more pleasant.

That's never worked for me. But, maybe it's just because my samatha skills are underdeveloped.

Dodge E Knees:
The DN doesn't have to last forever or be a living nightmare.

Well, it is what it is. I'm not going to argue with it or tell it that it should be something else. I'm more interested in what i can best do to deal with the situation.

Dodge E Knees:
After I first passed the A&P, I spent a few weeks in pure samatha, mainly because I was scared of the DN, but then when I finally sat for vipassana, I made it right throught to EQ the first time.

Incredible! I still can't even fathom how a person's brain could adjust to such a rapid change of perspective. You truly are a dharma prodigy. Be happy.

Dodge E Knees:
I really admire your fortitude in persisting when many others would have long ago given up.

Thanks. Perhaps some day when we have the Dharmys (an annual award ceremony for Practical Dharma practicioners)... i will win the award for most persistent. But, then again... I'm not sure i have much other choice. The only other options I can think of are:
1) Turn all my attention to career and relationships, and just try to do fun stuff all the time and develop the ability to not think about my inner world or do any inner exploration. Try to block it all out.
2) Suicide
So far, both of those options seem worse (and maybe also requiring greater effort) than just keeping on with the persistence, and keep doing the work that I find in front of me. Even if I work at it my whole life and die 50 years from now a chronic dark nighter, well... I hope at least i can just say that i gave it everything I had.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 12:56 PM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
Daniel Johnson:
I also wonder if an experienced teacher could help, but Kenneth told me that it wasn't working and suggested I find another teacher. I don't really have the money to afford a teacher, and I don't know really know who I would turn to who teaches this stuff.

I'm fortunate enough to have a very technical Mahasi teacher where I live, running a weekly meditation group. He doesn't charge anything except dana. I have only recently discovered this and it's really great so far - phone calls hardly compare to structured weekly instruction and being able to ask technical questions face to face. Hopefully you'll be able to find something like that. The guy is Burmese, and it seems that most Mahasi teachers in North America are Burmese immigrants. If you can't find a teacher nearby, maybe try to do your next retreat at a Mahasi center instead of Goenka?

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 1:39 PM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
Daniel Johnson:

Of course, there are also the possibilities that I am:
2) Well past stream entry and lost in some later path.


That's actually something I thought of a while back when reading one of your posts. I was like, I wonder if this guy has actually already landed stream-entry somewhere along the way - but for whatever reason just doesn't recognize fruitions. You have continually mentioned various baseline changes and insights that you have gained over the course of your practice. How about being as detailed as possible in describing here any major perceptual/baseline shifts where it was clear some aspect of suffering was gone and didn't come back, some aspect of or way of attaching to/relating to phenomena changed and didn't come back. What is your day to day perception like currently? How is it perceived that "you" do or do not seem to "relate" to phenomena? What things about suffering and sensations are really obvious all the time? What still seems like a mystery? What aspects of phenomena or reality seem especially interesting or what types of sensations/feelings are you very curious about investigating? Recurring themes/questions about experience you're naturally drawn to, etc.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 1:42 PM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
This meditation stuff really isn't all bliss and roses is it? I've obviously got off very lightly so far, but even so, I've never considered recommending it to any one I know, or really even talked about it much. I feel even more reticent now after reading your dharma history.

I'm amazed Kenneth Folk couldn't do anything for you, but maybe a teacher face to face in the flesh would be a better option.

Daniel Johnson:

1) Turn all my attention to career and relationships, and just try to do fun stuff all the time and develop the ability to not think about my inner world or do any inner exploration. Try to block it all out.


I'm sure I don't need to tell you that probably wont work, but seriously, having some fun is a good idea. Don't the AF crowd talk a lot about cultivating felicity and wonder? That is also one of the benefits of samatha: even if it doesn't further your insight, at least you feel good for a little while afterwards.

Take care.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 3:38 PM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
Dodge E Knees:
This meditation stuff really isn't all bliss and roses is it? I've obviously got off very lightly so far, but even so, I've never considered recommending it to any one I know, or really even talked about it much. I feel even more reticent now after reading your dharma history.


Yeah, I don't recommend it to anybody either. I have another friend who has been struggling with Kundalini for the past few years and now is in such discomfort that he can no longer work and is asking for charity. I may put up another post here sharing his story.


Dodge E Knees:
I'm amazed Kenneth Folk couldn't do anything for you,


He said something like he didn't think our personalities were a good match. I suspect we were both projecting things onto each other. Communication was difficult for some reason. Although, I will say that what I was able to learn from him was very helpful. Most of the foundation of my noting practice is based on what he taught me.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 4:05 PM as a reply to Steph S.
Steph S:
I wonder if this guy has actually already landed stream-entry somewhere along the way - but for whatever reason just doesn't recognize fruitions.


That's what Jill said to me also.

Steph S:
How about being as detailed as possible in describing here any major perceptual/baseline shifts where it was clear some aspect of suffering was gone and didn't come back, some aspect of or way of attaching to/relating to phenomena changed and didn't come back. What is your day to day perception like currently?


I find it difficult to respond to these questions. I kinda wish I knew the answer.

Steph S:
How is it perceived that "you" do or do not seem to "relate" to phenomena?


I can't find any "me" anywhere that is relating to things. My experience of "my self" is that I observe movement patterns in my psychology, as sensations or as thoughts or feelings, and they occur as a sort of mechanism of selfishness. Like, right now there is this story about how "I" am trying to figure out this meditation thing, and so "I" am writing here and looking for some answer to some problem. There are various thoughts, there is a sorta narrowing of attention with a certain focus, and there is the narrative. There is also a feeling tone of searching, clinging, straining. It doesn't particularly occur as though it is me... because I don't know what that me is that would be it. But, it doesn't occur as not me either, because it definitely is acting like a self.

But, when I am not looking, and I am just living my life... these patterns of a self continue all the time, quite engagingly. At times they are sorta all-consuming, where it is as though I am completely embodying this self.

None of it really makes sense to me. I can't really remember a time when I ever believed in some sort of self, like a spirit or soul residing inside the body. Maybe a long time ago?

I can't recall any time where I had an experience of no-self, or the self being in abeyance, or some non-dual state or anything like that.

Definitely there is the activity of a self, here, in my experience. I can't find a center to it, or the source of it. It seems causally linked, like a flow of reactions in the mind.

Well, that is the best I know how to describe it anyway. It is all quite confusing, and unclear.

Steph S:
What things about suffering and sensations are really obvious all the time?

Suffering is generally unpleasant. Sensations are changing. I guess. Another difficult question to answer.

Steph S:
What still seems like a mystery?


Lots of things seem like a mystery. What is this... this universe thing? Why is it so difficult for human beings to get along with each other?

Steph S:
What aspects of phenomena or reality seem especially interesting or what types of sensations/feelings are you very curious about investigating?


I've been fascinated by observing thoughts and the more subtle movements of the mind, because they often are so mixed up and jumbled about what they are. I'm also very curious about how to relate with other people without being manipulative, mean, selfish, petty, hypocritical, etc. And, I'm surprised by how difficult it is.

Steph S:
Recurring themes/questions about experience you're naturally drawn to, etc.


I don't know. I think I'm not great at finding recurring things in experience. I'm drawn to all sorts of stuff. Right now, I'm mostly curious about what I'm doing with my life.

Man, I find your questions so difficult to answer. I don't think I did a very good job answering them, but I thought I would give it a shot. It's very confusing for me, and it all just keeps shifting and changing.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 4:26 PM as a reply to Yadid dee.
but don't you think this could also be A&P?


Yes, it could also be three characteristics -> A&P. I stated it this way because of his earlier post where he stated he was "deep in the dark night" when practicing before the retreat. However, it's entirely possible that he was actually "deep in three characteristics," especially if he had just started intensively practicing after some time off.

Regarding statements about whether Daniel has already attained stream entry, that is possible too, as in my experience, progress is not entirely clear until things have been repeated many many times and then there is a better idea of what was going on when looking back in retrospect.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 4:54 PM as a reply to Daniel Johnson.
I'm not sure what you mean by cutting edge, but from my understanding of the term, EQ is my cutting edge already. So, what do you mean by that?


I think he just meant equanimity next will become baseline, while now it is cutting edge. High equanimity would be your next cutting edge while low equanimity would be your next baseline. All of this talk is largely irrelevant and it is the dose of sitting time (without floundering in too much content) that is going to get you there. Like you said, perhaps you need a higher dose of sitting time than some other people.

However, it seems your mind tends to spins in a lot of content? Is it possible you could practice more samatha/access concentration sitting so that you can sit without your mind wandering into too much content? Are you able to access 1-4 samatha jhanas? (soft or hard versions?). One option would be to stop doing insight practices and learn to access the first 4 samatha jhanas (if you are unable to currently do so). In my experience, concentration can also amplify the stages of insight so that the next time you go on retreat the stages may be much more obvious and clear. I was able to access 1-4 samatha jhanas before I started doing insight practices.

One benefit of doing this would be that this would "suppress your hindrances" and may give an apparent alleviation to your "insight disease," so long as you keep sitting everyday and bathing yourself in the jhanic bliss and are able to keep your hindrances suppressed throughout the day. Though you would have to keep sitting quite regularly to keep up the suppression.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 5:08 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
But, I can't even imagine ever getting to a state where I could be absorbed into white light in such a deep state of concentration - maybe in another 20 years?


If you make concerted effort to sit for several hours daily, 1-3 hours, (forgetting insight for now) then I doubt it would take more than a year to get 1-2 soft samatha jhana (isn't the first samatha jhana a prerequisite for doing insight practices?). Once you get those then 3rd and 4th would come shortly after.

RE: Retreat Report: 9 days in Kelseyville
Answer
8/29/12 5:15 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
... Then, I tried a few other Vipassana traditions and have been doing noting for the last year or two.


Ok, that clears up some. The expectations for results that people have here, far as I know, really only pertain to the noting practice. Whether or not that is the practice for you I have no idea, but I would say it's a little premature to decide it just doesn't work for you. Part of your sense of exasperation is based on all the years of searching that came prior to that.

Practicing to your edge every day seems like good advice. Personally, I find low EQ to be the trickiest stage. It can feel like no progress is being made for months.

Given your obvious predisposition to intensive seeking, it seems unlikely you have not passed A+P at some time, imho. More likely that you have gotten stream entry, although, even if you were never aware of cycling or cessations, I would think you would have more confidence in your path. How are your concentration skills? That would be an indicator.