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Dealing with the Dark Night

dark night/meditation retreat?

dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 8:36 PM
Hi guys,

For about a year now I've been dealing with anxiety/depression and panic attacks.. which I have been able to manage by my change in perspective on them. On September 5, I am slated to do a meditation retreat, and am caught between the extremes of using it as an experience for greater realization, and being frightened that I will slip in to madness. Perhaps the chronic feature of my anxiety/depression and panic attacks is that I feel "derealization", an experience that essentially leads me to feel as though there is a veil between me and the world ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization ). I am worried that 10 days of vipassana will make this worse for me. I have these thoughts, then I have thoughts that everything is transitory anyway, and the anxiety lessens. My experience feels akin to a "dark night" experience (keep wanting to type "knight" because of the batman movie that is out lol). Anyway, do you think I should move forward with the retreat as it will give me insight to moving beyond anxiety/depression, panic, derealization or do you believe I should be making other moves. Thanks all.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 9:13 PM as a reply to J B #A.
J B:
For about a year now I've been dealing with anxiety/depression and panic attacks.. which I have been able to manage by my change in perspective on them.

Excellent - then you already know what to do!

On September 5, I am slated to do a meditation retreat, and am caught between the extremes of using it as an experience for greater realization, and being frightened that I will slip in to madness. Perhaps the chronic feature of my anxiety/depression and panic attacks is that I feel "derealization", an experience that essentially leads me to feel as though there is a veil between me and the world ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization ). I am worried that 10 days of vipassana will make this worse for me.

Maybe it will. But then again, you're much more prepared than an average person, since you already know how to deal with that.

I have experienced many panic attacks, fear, derealization, heart attack symptoms, loss of consciousness... Eventually I learned the "change of perspective" trick and got it all under control. You're not going to die and you're not going to go crazy, and the rest you can deal with by relaxing and letting it happen (which, conveniently, will actually make it stop, since the symptoms are self-induced anyway). And that's what overcoming the dark night is all about. I'm fairly certain that my panic attacks were a dark night symptom.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 9:36 PM as a reply to N A.
N A:
J B:
For about a year now I've been dealing with anxiety/depression and panic attacks.. which I have been able to manage by my change in perspective on them.

Excellent - then you already know what to do!

On September 5, I am slated to do a meditation retreat, and am caught between the extremes of using it as an experience for greater realization, and being frightened that I will slip in to madness. Perhaps the chronic feature of my anxiety/depression and panic attacks is that I feel "derealization", an experience that essentially leads me to feel as though there is a veil between me and the world ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization ). I am worried that 10 days of vipassana will make this worse for me.

Maybe it will. But then again, you're much more prepared than an average person, since you already know how to deal with that.

I have experienced many panic attacks, fear, derealization, heart attack symptoms, loss of consciousness... Eventually I learned the "change of perspective" trick and got it all under control. You're not going to die and you're not going to go crazy, and the rest you can deal with by relaxing and letting it happen (which, conveniently, will actually make it stop, since the symptoms are self-induced anyway). And that's what overcoming the dark night is all about. I'm fairly certain that my panic attacks were a dark night symptom.



Thanks for the reassurance, N A lol. I should say that I still deal with them, but I have taken the edge off of them significantly. What about the derealization? What is your story?

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 9:42 PM as a reply to N A.
I feel "derealization"


Looking at wiki this seems to be the same thing that I know as depersonalisation. I don't typically feel this way, but have experienced it in the past from LSD trips. Recently I have noticed the presence of this kind of feeling whilst meditating, when signs of impermanence begin to show up, e.g. visual flickering. I asked the person I'm working with as best as I could, and he says the flicking (not the depersonalisation, which I didn't think to bring up at the time) was actually a proper sign.

Therefore I'd say what you are describing are valid progress markers. You should deal with it as noted above and should make good progress. On these grounds, I'd highly recommend the retreat.

Disclaimer: I'm probably in the dark night myself and are only just getting started with meditation. I'm pretty confident in this but you should check with someone who knows better.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 9:46 PM as a reply to J B #A.
What about the derealization? What is your story?

What about derealization? It's transient, isn't it? If so, why are you afraid of it so much?

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 9:46 PM as a reply to Adrian Smith.
Adrian Smith:
I feel "derealization"


Looking at wiki this seems to be the same thing that I know as depersonalisation. I don't typically feel this way, but have experienced it in the past from LSD trips. Recently I have noticed the presence of this kind of feeling whilst meditating, when signs of impermanence begin to show up, e.g. visual flickering. I asked the person I'm working with as best as I could, and he says the flicking (not the depersonalisation, which I didn't think to bring up at the time) was actually a proper sign.

Therefore I'd say what you are describing are valid progress markers. You should deal with it as noted above and should make good progress. On these grounds, I'd highly recommend the retreat.

Disclaimer: I'm probably in the dark night myself and are only just getting started with meditation. I'm pretty confident in this but you should check with someone who knows better.


Thanks for your response, Adrian. I have gone back and forth tonight with whether or not I'm going to do it and about an hour ago I went back to the "yes" side lol. Look forward to hearing how you're progressing as well

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 10:00 PM as a reply to N A.
N A:
What about the derealization? What is your story?

What about derealization? It's transient, isn't it? If so, why are you afraid of it so much?


Because this feature in particular feels more fixed and feels chronic. It doesn't seem to change, it just stays right where it is.. for this reason I am concerned about the retreat as I feel that it will debilitate me and with me having just completed school and needing to work to pay off these loans, that is no bueno for right now

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
8/31/12 11:08 PM as a reply to J B #A.
J B:
Because this feature in particular feels more fixed and feels chronic. It doesn't seem to change, it just stays right where it is.. for this reason I am concerned about the retreat as I feel that it will debilitate me and with me having just completed school and needing to work to pay off these loans, that is no bueno for right now

I'm not a doctor, maybe you have some underlying medical condition for this. But then vipassana shouldn't affect it much once the retreat is over, since it won't change the underlying condition. Of course you would need to deal with the underlying condition separately.
Otherwise, it could be a sign that you're really getting somewhere.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/1/12 3:08 AM as a reply to J B #A.
Just note your arse off, 24 hrs a day for as many weeks as you can. Push yourself really hard and try to bust through to the other side.... the better side, where life is better. Whatever you do, remember the goal is to escape your current reality. Your mantra can be "I must escape the present moment". Before you begin, make sure to remove any sharp objects from the immediate vicinity, and have someone confiscate your belt and bed sheets, since they can be used for self-harm. Remember to inform the staff of your medical practitioners details and past history of medicines, and update your will. If you make it to the promised land, write back and tell us. There's a few of us here who are dying to know if the grass is greener in the promised land.

Seriously though... actually no that is serious. emoticon

If you're thinking "what???" let me spell it out for you.

Don't do it. Life - as it is right here and now - is fine. You are also fine. There's nothing wrong.....nothing the matter. Nothing needs fixing.


Your ego keeps itself centre stage by demanding to have something to 'fix' or 'improve'. And you can't see that paradox because your ego is in absolute control.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/1/12 1:20 PM as a reply to C C C.
Ha

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/1/12 3:09 PM as a reply to C C C.
C C C:
Just note your arse off, 24 hrs a day for as many weeks as you can. Push yourself really hard and try to bust through to the other side.... the better side, where life is better. Whatever you do, remember the goal is to escape your current reality. Your mantra can be "I must escape the present moment". Before you begin, make sure to remove any sharp objects from the immediate vicinity, and have someone confiscate your belt and bed sheets, since they can be used for self-harm. Remember to inform the staff of your medical practitioners details and past history of medicines, and update your will. If you make it to the promised land, write back and tell us. There's a few of us here who are dying to know if the grass is greener in the promised land.

Seriously though... actually no that is serious. emoticon

If you're thinking "what???" let me spell it out for you.

Don't do it. Life - as it is right here and now - is fine. You are also fine. There's nothing wrong.....nothing the matter. Nothing needs fixing.


Your ego keeps itself centre stage by demanding to have something to 'fix' or 'improve'. And you can't see that paradox because your ego is in absolute control.



So essentially, don't go through with the meditation retreat; establish mindfulness of life here and now?

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/1/12 3:52 PM as a reply to J B #A.
So essentially, don't go through with the meditation retreat; establish mindfulness of life here and now?


No, he's just ranting about various cultural aspects and misunderstandings about "goal-oriented practice." The advice he's giving is sarcasm. I would just ignore that whole post. Though anxiety attacks and depression may be trouble on a retreat that is too long. So start with a very short retreat first. Try a one day or three day retreat first.

What about derealization? It's transient, isn't it? If so, why are you afraid of it so much?


All "things" are transient. So, yes, do not be afraid of "derealization"

this seems to be the same thing that I know as depersonalisation


The difference between depersonalization and derealization, is depersonalization is when the illusory "watcher" is outside the body rather than inside it. It is obviously temporary, as the "watcher" is an illusion that is being falsely extrapolated from sensations.

Derealization is when the visual aspects of reality start to look "unreal." Perhaps they are more colorful/or less colorful than usual, or look more cartoonish, like you're in the episode of the simpsons or something. It is temporary as it is simply a manifestation of sensations/conditions coming and going. It can be a sign of insight into reality, as it can really hone in on what is talked about as the "transient/insubstantial" nature of appearances. Looking at clouds in the sky and seeing them as strange or unreal is in some sense true, as the clouds are actually made out of tiny water particles, and if you were to go up to them in an airplane they would dissolve into an insubstantial fog. The reason it often co-occurs with depersonalization, is that having the "watcher" outside the body is a sort of "out of body experience" that makes the entire body feel that it is not in your "possession" and thus the entire world is sort of fuzzy and unreal. It is a sort of "ungrounding" experience, but it is impermanent and not a big deal.

EDIT: I would recommend starting with more basic forms of meditation to get a handle on the depression/anxiety before starting insight practices.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/1/12 4:09 PM as a reply to J B #A.
Contact the retreat leader with your concerns. They can give you much better advice than you'll be able to get on an internet forum (though there is good advice here.)

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/1/12 10:47 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
JB, as you know, there's lots of ways to define ego. One of the best I reckon is the belief: "something needs fixing or changing, either myself or the world needs to be better than it is in this very moment".

My sarcasm (hopefully you got it) was to draw attention to the glaring paradox of going to a retreat in order to change your experience. Can you see how this will strengthen ego?

I'm not totally against effort, but it must be the "effortless effort", which means that the impetus must come from outside of yourself. The impulse for a single-celled organism to evolve comes from Nature itself, not from the the cell's ego. If going on retreat is driven by needing to have a different experience, it cannot work. Successful retreats happen when you're 'called', not when you call yourself. Calling yourself = wanting a better experience. Being called = Life has decided this is my destiny.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/2/12 12:31 AM as a reply to C C C.
C C C:
Successful retreats happen when you're 'called', not when you call yourself. Calling yourself = wanting a better experience. Being called = Life has decided this is my destiny.

This definitely seems true. The progress of insight happens on its own.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/3/12 2:06 AM as a reply to C C C.
C C C:
JB, as you know, there's lots of ways to define ego. One of the best I reckon is the belief: "something needs fixing or changing, either myself or the world needs to be better than it is in this very moment".

My sarcasm (hopefully you got it) was to draw attention to the glaring paradox of going to a retreat in order to change your experience. Can you see how this will strengthen ego?

I'm not totally against effort, but it must be the "effortless effort", which means that the impetus must come from outside of yourself. The impulse for a single-celled organism to evolve comes from Nature itself, not from the the cell's ego. If going on retreat is driven by needing to have a different experience, it cannot work. Successful retreats happen when you're 'called', not when you call yourself. Calling yourself = wanting a better experience. Being called = Life has decided this is my destiny.


Right, thank you. I would not say that I necessarily crave a better experience by doing this, as again, I am aware of the anxious thought patterns circulating in my head here and there that I will go insane by doing this, but I do feel that things in my life have lined up at this specific time to allow me to do prolonged meditation. I eagerly await the opportunity to sit away from distractions and the "western life" - constantly shoved down our throats - that I have become disillusioned with in a lot of ways. Not trying to escape or force anything, simply seeking more clarity.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/3/12 6:19 AM as a reply to C C C.
C C C:
... Successful retreats happen when you're 'called', not when you call yourself. ...

Is that opinion based on your own retreat experience or just a theory (that might or might not be true for all or only some people)?

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/3/12 6:03 PM as a reply to J B #A.
J B!

Hi.

So, in my experience, the first part of the retreat - like the first four days - are going to be physically hard-going. You know: knees, rhomboids, abductors, adductors, neck. Sleep anyone? Sleepy, sleepy, sleepy. Did that cute person look my way? Is that person next to me, that really annoying "smile" person, sitting longer than me??? Gah! What the hell am I doing here? It's beautiful outside and I am sitting all day? In pain? This is not human, nor wise, nor compassionate...

blah blah blah.

Anyway, the first two-to-four days are a challenge.

Sooo, if the mind wants to go into a syndrome, because perseverating on a thought like that is the fastest way to get out of Dodge, so to speak, it will. Let me tell you, Day 2 is Excuseville for me. Mind just fills with reasons to leave: am I having a stroke? Did Achaan Chah have a stroke? Who is this teacher? Who do they think they are? Did they even mention Buddha? Did they mention Buddha too much? Hey, why didn't Buddha give equal rights to the ladies? Oof, my normal life is so nice [suddenly, the stress of that 'normal-perspective' life, yes, that one that got me to choose a meditation retreat, looks like a sweet bouquet of roses compared to Day 2.] Dang: should I have gone to see the actualism guy in Australia? Did I leave the windows open? Jeez, that'll cost dollars: better just go home. Gah, the food, the way of eating, the bathrooms. Aaaarrgh.

Maybe you will not at all have those kinds of thoughts. But for me, Day 2, is about not leaving and being nice to the body. I used to take naps. It's a good idea, I think.

Anyway, Day 3 and 4 things start to lighten up a little. A person uses all of their tools to stay. Many people take a few naps on the first two days. However, that can also become the entire retreat if one wants it. Then one will have "left" the retreat, without having gained the excellent exposure to oneself.

Sooooooo (more "o"s this time): here are my thoughts:
- Be gentle with body in the beginning. Burmese meditators are famous for a) being great, long meditators (hours, hours), and b) having super-casual posture. Bye bye zen, hello slouch-ananda.

- Meaning: be not afraid to sit on a bench in the shade, to take quiet walks, to take brisk walks

- do some easy stretches with long, slow deep breathing (at least 5-sec inhale and 5-second exhale, for 5 whole respirations: yup, that's 50 seconds per stretch. If ya can't do the breathing, you are in too deep; back off the stretch a little until you can breath deeply and stay in the stretch for at least five cycles). Let me know if you want 6 stretches and I'll send.

- keep taking attention to the breath. those flashy lights you have seen? When you become truly willing to stay with the breath, those lights become the bright, steady light of mind in focus...this is the road to samadhi: good concentration. Good concentration gives rise to otha stuffs. All you have to do is attend the breath closely, closely. The breath is going to change, get long, get short, get stomachy, get lung-y, just follow it. The upper lip may vibrate/buzz: yup, follow-closely like it's your meal ticket.

- just basically be nice. Try not to criticize the teacher. Mind is going to settle very nicely in a few days after breathing focus warms up and jumps in the game; finding trouble with the retreat or teacher is often just a means to distract oneself from one's own work

- follow the Golden Rule: avoid creating any trouble while/if you're struggling through the first days

- honestly, a lot of people feel better and start "getting into it" by Day 4-5. It is worthwhile.


I don't know about this thing "derealization". If you experience this due to epilepsy or head trauma, you know, do tell the retreat folk. That's fair to them.

Otherwise, I think when we feel troubled, we look for trouble and there's a label waiting. I am not trivializing what you experience; not at all. Dark night is what it says: misery, fear, disgust. Lots of label-able experiences fit in these zones.


And, btw, if you liked any of the actualism stuff, I benefitted from their sensate delight stuff. I think deliberately taking up a wonderful, sensate receptivity (especially in a safe setting like retreat) is useful. Listen to birds, crickets, trees rustling, traffic, chatter, heartbeat, etc.

I want to say that I think you surely have this in you, but I really don't know. People do take extreme actions.

It's also okay if you do not do the retreat now. If there is too much apprehension at this point, there are lots of ways to start with a shorter experience.

best wishes.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/3/12 6:11 PM as a reply to katy steger.
NOTE TO MODERATOR:
Do we have two J B's now? One J B has posted 137 posts as of today, and this new J B has posted 6. Did I miss something? Otherwise, this could get confusing.

RE: dark night/meditation retreat?
Answer
9/3/12 6:41 PM as a reply to katy steger.
katy steger:
J B!

Hi.

So, in my experience, the first part of the retreat - like the first four days - are going to be physically hard-going. You know: knees, rhomboids, abductors, adductors, neck. Sleep anyone? Sleepy, sleepy, sleepy. Did that cute person look my way? Is that person next to me, that really annoying "smile" person, sitting longer than me??? Gah! What the hell am I doing here? It's beautiful outside and I am sitting all day? In pain? This is not human, nor wise, nor compassionate...

blah blah blah.

Anyway, the first two-to-four days are a challenge.

Sooo, if the mind wants to go into a syndrome, because perseverating on a thought like that is the fastest way to get out of Dodge, so to speak, it will. Let me tell you, Day 2 is Excuseville for me. Mind just fills with reasons to leave: am I having a stroke? Did Achaan Chah have a stroke? Who is this teacher? Who do they think they are? Did they even mention Buddha? Did they mention Buddha too much? Hey, why didn't Buddha give equal rights to the ladies? Oof, my normal life is so nice [suddenly, the stress of that 'normal-perspective' life, yes, that one that got me to choose a meditation retreat, looks like a sweet bouquet of roses compared to Day 2.] Dang: should I have gone to see the actualism guy in Australia? Did I leave the windows open? Jeez, that'll cost dollars: better just go home. Gah, the food, the way of eating, the bathrooms. Aaaarrgh.

Maybe you will not at all have those kinds of thoughts. But for me, Day 2, is about not leaving and being nice to the body. I used to take naps. It's a good idea, I think.

Anyway, Day 3 and 4 things start to lighten up a little. A person uses all of their tools to stay. Many people take a few naps on the first two days. However, that can also become the entire retreat if one wants it. Then one will have "left" the retreat, without having gained the excellent exposure to oneself.

Sooooooo (more "o"s this time): here are my thoughts:
- Be gentle with body in the beginning. Burmese meditators are famous for a) being great, long meditators (hours, hours), and b) having super-casual posture. Bye bye zen, hello slouch-ananda.

- Meaning: be not afraid to sit on a bench in the shade, to take quiet walks, to take brisk walks

- do some easy stretches with long, slow deep breathing (at least 5-sec inhale and 5-second exhale, for 5 whole respirations: yup, that's 50 seconds per stretch. If ya can't do the breathing, you are in too deep; back off the stretch a little until you can breath deeply and stay in the stretch for at least five cycles). Let me know if you want 6 stretches and I'll send.

- keep taking attention to the breath. those flashy lights you have seen? When you become truly willing to stay with the breath, those lights become the bright, steady light of mind in focus...this is the road to samadhi: good concentration. Good concentration gives rise to otha stuffs. All you have to do is attend the breath closely, closely. The breath is going to change, get long, get short, get stomachy, get lung-y, just follow it. The upper lip may vibrate/buzz: yup, follow-closely like it's your meal ticket.

- just basically be nice. Try not to criticize the teacher. Mind is going to settle very nicely in a few days after breathing focus warms up and jumps in the game; finding trouble with the retreat or teacher is often just a means to distract oneself from one's own work

- follow the Golden Rule: avoid creating any trouble while/if you're struggling through the first days

- honestly, a lot of people feel better and start "getting into it" by Day 4-5. It is worthwhile.


I don't know about this thing "derealization". If you experience this due to epilepsy or head trauma, you know, do tell the retreat folk. That's fair to them.

Otherwise, I think when we feel troubled, we look for trouble and there's a label waiting. I am not trivializing what you experience; not at all. Dark night is what it says: misery, fear, disgust. Lots of label-able experiences fit in these zones.


And, btw, if you liked any of the actualism stuff, I benefitted from their sensate delight stuff. I think deliberately taking up a wonderful, sensate receptivity (especially in a safe setting like retreat) is useful. Listen to birds, crickets, trees rustling, traffic, chatter, heartbeat, etc.

I want to say that I think you surely have this in you, but I really don't know. People do take extreme actions.

It's also okay if you do not do the retreat now. If there is too much apprehension at this point, there are lots of ways to start with a shorter experience.

best wishes.


Katy,

I, the "other" J B on this site (I don't know who the one with 137 posts is as I am new here) thank you so much for your advice. Would you please send me the stretches? Any posture change recommendations?

I can not be clear that I am necessarily in the "Dark Night" as I have not been practicing/studying for a tremendous amount of time and don't want to disrespect those that have, and are now in the "classically defined" Dark night. In early 2011 I came to a place where I was incredibly disillusioned about everything and felt that my perspective on God, the universe, myself and morality had been turned inside out. This was following a string of panic attacks/depression and lead me to start having thoughts that life wasn't really worth it anymore. I started seeing the light and became able to manage these feelings a bit better and am nowhere near as close to the utter despair that I felt then. So maybe it was depression, maybe it was an early dark night experience? Is there a significant difference? I don't know.. but I'm just thankful to have come to a point where I can sit and meditate on impermanence hopefully without losing my marbles.


Thanks for all of the responses thus far