Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Practice Logs

OK, Let's Do This - Robert's Practice Log

Story so far:
I've grown increasingly interested in meditation, and then in Buddhism, over the past three-ish years. However, so far it has been almost exclusively just that, interest. I have tried meditating on and off, managing to sustain practice only for a few weeks at a time. On the intellectual side however, I have been reading more and more broadly, as part of what is really a life-long desire to know What This Is All About. That has taken me to a fairly advanced level of technical understanding (physics and compsci being the two primary fields, but with analytic philosophy as an adjunct), and a pretty intense journey through evangelical christianity within the Roman Catholic tradition.

Motivation:
Several things have led me here, and their relative priorities have changed over time. They include (not in current priority order):
  1. A desire to lose weight -- the assumption being that obesity has a large "control the mind" component, and meditation helps train the mind
  2. A treatment for ADD
  3. A growing awareness of the fact that there appears to be no deep correlation between money, sex, power, etc etc on the one hand, and deep happiness/wellbeing on the other
  4. Curiosity as to the true nature of reality

Current status:
I've pondered a lot, read a lot, discussed and debated quite a bit. I see no problem with that. In fact, I see it as being (for me, not necessarily for others) a solid platform from which to pursue this next stage. But I think I've done enough for a while, or at least, I'm ready to stop doing *only* that. I've already pondered the idea that a scientific-like analysis of the world may actually *be* a form of insight practice, but I'm really only speculating there. And as Daniel Ingram says in MCTB:

"When choosing an insight tradition, I would suggest you look for a tradition that is tried and true, meaning that is either very old and well-tested, or at least can, in modern times, demonstrate that it consistently leads to unshakable realizations."
So it may be true that if you study reality, in the right way and through the lens of Quantum Mechanics you will indeed find insight and eventually Enlightenment. But I'm disinclined to risk it since there already appear to be paths that are well trodden and effective. Call me a wimp, but I'm no Newton, or Amundsen, or Siddartha Gotama. I'll take some signposts if I can get them, and leave the true trail breaking to braver souls.

So, here's the plan. I have begun re-reading MCTB, but I now aim to *do* it rather than just read and analyze. The overall aim is to establish a sturdy and determined meditation practice. Daniels book will be my primary initial guide, and I'll supplement that with anything I need from both primary and secondary Buddhist sources. I'll also gladly take input from people here on DhO who are further up the mountain than I am. Since I consider myself to be pretty much at the bottom, many of you qualify.

From early in MCTB, I note that there are three components to this path: morality, concentration, and wisdom. My understanding is that the first must precede, surround, inform, and also be enhanced by the other two. I consider myself to have been working on that aspect all my life. So the other two become the focus. And for now, it's the first. I note Daniel's comment:

The essential point about meditation is this: to get anywhere in meditation you need to be able to really steady the mind and be present. That’s just all there is to it and it is largely a question of just doing it. There is an important shift that happens in people’s practice when they really make the commitment to developing concentration and follow through with it.

And so that is the commitment I'm making to myself now. Daniel points out "access concentration" as being the first formal goal, so I'll get started on that for the time being.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 3:46 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
First sit. 40 minutes of (what I think is) samatha meditation.

I sat in a chair. I have an injured lower back and kneeling is hard; any kind of sitting on a cushion on the floor is impossible. On the odd occasion I've meditated in the past, I worried about that, but not now. I'm assuming for now that the most important aspects of posture are sustainability coupled with to sending one to sleep. Sitting in a chair qualifies as far as I'm concerned. All I'm trying to do is develop the concentration Daniel talks about in MCTB:

MCTB:
"So, the essential formal concentration practice instructions are: pick an object (the list above is a great place to begin), find a place to practice where you are as free from distractions as possible, pick a sustainable posture (it doesn’t really matter so much), focus your attention on the object as completely and consistently as possible for the duration of that practice period, allowing as few lapses in concentration as possible, and learn to stabilize all of your attention on that object."

I chose 40 minutes because that's the most I've managed before, and I kinda wanted to make a bit of a statement to myself about effort. In the past I've tried to first build a habit of sitting and too 5 minutes to be enough. I imagine it *is* enough for some people, but that approach never resulted in a long-term practice. So I decided to be a *little* bit tough on myself. I know by many of your standards, 40 minutes is a blink of the eye, but it's not for me. And as I say, I have sat for 40 minutes in the past, so this isn't really pushing myself.

That said, I always have and did again today find this *hard*. Uncomfortable. Not at all soothing or relaxing. For a while I just focused on the breath on my nostrils. Then I tried Mahasi-style noting of my moving abdomen. But throughout it was tense. Bum was sore. Lots of distractions, some minutes long and off into daily concerns. And overall I had a sort of "gritted teeth" feeling, as if I *was* grinding my teeth even though I wasn't. I am overweight and have sleep apnea, and along with that I have some of the symptoms of Restless Leg Syndrome. If you know what that's like, then that's pretty much how it felt. I read absolutely no significance into any of this. And throughout, as soon as I became aware that I'd gotten distracted, I noted and moved back to my primary object -- breath or abdomen. But still, not fun.

A few times I experienced what some have said in the past may be 1st jhana. It's a deeper sense of focus, combined with the feeling that I'm going cross-eyed behind my closed eyelids and also a pattern of swirling pink, purple and orange brightness in my vision (albeit with closed eyes). When it has happened in the past it has been pleasurable. Today, if it was pleasant it wasn't able to override the more general feeling of tense discomfort.

That's all for now.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 4:50 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
If you want to lose weight, the Buddhist practice of only eating one meal a day is very effective and complementary to meditation.

Regarding other paths, there is no way in hell you can get enlightened by contemplating quantum mechanics. You made the right choice.

Regarding other things to read, I strongly recommend Thanissaro Bhikku's writing. I am a cheap bastard, but I liked Wings to Awakening so much, I sent him a $50 donation for it.

Regarding the meditation session, no need to be masochistic about it. If you're not getting stable attention, long sessions aren't useful. Better to break it up into 25 minutes with walking meditation in between or something like that. And sit comfortably, on a blanket or whatever you need to keep your backside from hurting.

Rest warm, appreciative attention on the object. When you notice your mind has wandered, celebrate the noticing. If frustration arises at the wandering, that frustration is itself another wandering, so having noticed it, celebrate that you've noticed it. Then back to the object.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 5:55 PM as a reply to fivebells ..
Thanks fivebells. I really appreciate the input.

fivebells .:
...there is no way in hell you can get enlightened by contemplating quantum mechanics.

One of the things I'm working on right now is to focus on doing the stuff, and to try not to get too involved in much in the way of argument and discourse *about* the stuff. I imagine I'll last no more than a week, but in the meantime thanks for giving me an opportunity to test my resolve on that front ;)

Regarding the meditation session, no need to be masochistic about it. If you're not getting stable attention, long sessions aren't useful. Better to break it up into 25 minutes with walking meditation in between or something like that.

Thanks. I may do that tomorrow. I did some kinhin at one point, so I guess I can just recall what I did there.

Again, thanks for the input. Please offer more as much as you see the need and can be bothered.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 6:34 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Robert McLune:
First sit. 40 minutes of (what I think is) samatha meditation.

I sat in a chair. I have an injured lower back and kneeling is hard; any kind of sitting on a cushion on the floor is impossible. On the odd occasion I've meditated in the past, I worried about that, but not now. I'm assuming for now that the most important aspects of posture are sustainability coupled with to sending one to sleep. Sitting in a chair qualifies as far as I'm concerned.


That's fine. I sat on a zafu for the first six months I did this, mostly because I thought it was more authentic, but now I just sit in a chair with the zafu supporting my lower back. :-)

Is sitting on the chair supportive enough for you? You can recline if you want, like laying in bed or on the floor. There's no hard and fast rule about it. If I'm going to fall asleep, I fall asleep. I saw people on retreat pass out while standing, so there are no guarantees.

All I'm trying to do is develop the concentration Daniel talks about in MCTB:


There's no need to be rigid about it. I bet even Daniel would agree that a lot of this stuff develops organically, and that concentration will arise along with the other factors of awakening.

The main idea here is to realize what's happening as it's happening, to see the true nature of things. For that you need a little bit of concentration ... a little bit of curiosity ... a little bit of tranquility ... a little bit of enthusiasm. Don't get hung up. Just imagine that you're bird-watching ... or watching cells under a microscope ... or observing a comet through a telescope. Take a patient scientist's attitude toward the thing.

I chose 40 minutes because that's the most I've managed before, and I kinda wanted to make a bit of a statement to myself about effort. In the past I've tried to first build a habit of sitting and too 5 minutes to be enough. I imagine it *is* enough for some people, but that approach never resulted in a long-term practice. So I decided to be a *little* bit tough on myself. I know by many of your standards, 40 minutes is a blink of the eye, but it's not for me. And as I say, I have sat for 40 minutes in the past, so this isn't really pushing myself.

That said, I always have and did again today find this *hard*. Uncomfortable. Not at all soothing or relaxing. For a while I just focused on the breath on my nostrils. Then I tried Mahasi-style noting of my moving abdomen. But throughout it was tense. Bum was sore. Lots of distractions, some minutes long and off into daily concerns. And overall I had a sort of "gritted teeth" feeling, as if I *was* grinding my teeth even though I wasn't. I am overweight and have sleep apnea, and along with that I have some of the symptoms of Restless Leg Syndrome. If you know what that's like, then that's pretty much how it felt. I read absolutely no significance into any of this. And throughout, as soon as I became aware that I'd gotten distracted, I noted and moved back to my primary object -- breath or abdomen. But still, not fun.

A few times I experienced what some have said in the past may be 1st jhana. It's a deeper sense of focus, combined with the feeling that I'm going cross-eyed behind my closed eyelids and also a pattern of swirling pink, purple and orange brightness in my vision (albeit with closed eyes). When it has happened in the past it has been pleasurable. Today, if it was pleasant it wasn't able to override the more general feeling of tense discomfort.


This sounds perfectly normal to me.

When I'm dealing with very difficult sensations and a frequently wandering mind (which is what it sounds like you're describing here), I just go to wide open noting. I drop the sensations of the breath, and I drop all models and notions of progress or regress, and I just note whatever predominates.

This is the bootstrapping technique. :-) I sometimes amuse myself here with the image of a car that's broken down in a field and getting out and pushing (noting) it.

"Okay, there's daydreaming ... now there's soreness in my back ... now there's tension ... now there's a mental image ... now pressure ... now hearing ... hearing again ... now pressure ... now thinking ... thinking ... hearing ... seeing some stuff behind my eyelids ... wanting this to be over already ... discomfort ... where's that discomfort? ... pressure ... feeling ... feeling ... hearing ... seeing ... thinking ... thinking ..."

I often do this out loud. I actually had a session today where I was staring at the clock, noting, "wanting this to be over ... wanting this to be over ..." And I'm not at all a n00b. Some sessions are just like this.

A big part of the psychological benefit of this practice comes from just being able to sit with unpleasant sensations and not do anything with them or about them. You're struggling with sensations. There are sensations from the body that are unpleasant. There are thoughts about those sensations that get woven into a story, and that story is very uncomfortable. And then that story leads to more unpleasant sensations arising. This is basically what dependent origination is about. It's also basically what Daniel's chapter on Content vs. Insight is about.

Your job, as a yogi, is to go to the root, to watch the sensations as they unfold, before they turn into stories and theories, and to just see their true nature. This is hard, because the preeminent tendency of the mind is toward content, not toward insight. It's toward stories or theories about things. It's toward memory and narrative, as though these things are simply There, as though they're Realities, when in fact they're constructed in many, many, many steps -- each one of which tends to offer its own little bit of pain.

Have patience with it and with yourself. It seems as though you've put off sitting for whatever reasoning and have had to circle around the thing a lot. And now you see why: it's because there's discomfort and frustration there. Okay. So be with that, and see it for what it is.

And by the way, I have studied philosophy. A lot. I have letters after my name in the subject. :-) I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that the part of you that wants to theorize about this and the part of you that wants to sit down and Get It Done are not the same. This doesn't mean they have to part ways or that there's no place for your intellect in this. It just means that, like every other person, you're made up of different motives. Make an ally of the part of yourself that can approach this like a scientist rather than a theoretician. Also bring a helping of empathy to the practice so that you can flow and move with the consciousness as it does its thing. You're not going to bring your experience to understanding, but you can bring your understanding to the experience -- if that makes any sense.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 7:25 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Thanks FS,

Fitter Stoke:

There's no need to be rigid about it. I bet even Daniel would agree that a lot of this stuff develops organically, and that concentration will arise along with the other factors of awakening.

The main idea here is to realize what's happening as it's happening, to see the true nature of things.

Can you clarify that for me. Here's the thing -- I think I need to keep things as simple as possible for the time being. If I don't, I'll just analyze stuff to death and not actually get any sitting done. Also, I suspect that my tendency to analyze may slow my progress because it's stopping me concentrating. I have ADD, which just adds to that.

So my attempt to simplify was to take Daniel at his word. Get concentration going first, *then* insight. But you seem to be saying I should just forget about that and do insight from the word go.

I'm not trying to pit one position against the other, but let me ask it this way. Can you see any harm in my simply working on concentration for a week or three anyway, and specifically *not* working on insight. I'm not saying I would make any kind of effort to "not do" insight. All I mean is, is it OK to *not* exert effort to *do* insight. If you see what I mean.

To fully understand Calculus, you're going to have to learn to differentiate and integrate. But it's a useful learning approach to get the basics of differentiation under your belt first, without worrying about integration. Does that apply here for concentration (differentiation) and insight (integration).

I emphasize -- and this is based on the fact that while I don't know this stuf, I do know *me* -- I'm just trying to keep things simple to get started.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 8:15 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Robert, I've been reading most of your posts lately and thing that most stands out is a tone of very high excitement. This doesn't work well with many styles of meditation, in my experience. I find the following method better when my mind is over-heated. It's from Richard Rose's "The Imposter".


Description A: Shut your eyes. Relax your body. Now ignore your body. Let go of all effort. Let go of all sense of having to do something, as though there is nothing you have to do and nothing you have to think about. Letting go of all effort means letting go of all will and all desire as though there was nothing that needed to be accomplished or changed.

Let go. Relax. Let go more. Relax more. See how far it is possible to let go. Let go of all thoughts. Let go of all feelings. Let go of all effort. Let go of everything except your awareness.

Whatever thoughts, perceptions, images or feelings arise, let them go as soon as they arise or even before they arise. Do not follow thoughts, as though you had no interest in them. Let go of all your perceptions as though they have nothing to do with you.

Continue to relax more and more. Throughout the practice session let go more, then let go even more and as the practice session continues see how far it is possible to let go. Relax completely. Let go totally. Release everything except your awareness.

Letting go is giving up completely. Letting go is surrendering completely. Letting go is relaxing completely. Letting go is releasing completely. Letting go is letting go of all effort and all thought. Letting go is letting go of all feelings, desires and images. Letting go is letting go of everything except your awareness.

The difference between falling asleep and the Abandon Release Method is when you fall asleep you let go of everything including your awareness. In the Abandon Release Method, you let go of everything except your awareness.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 7:50 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with working on access concentration for awhile, if that's where your mind is at with things. The problem is, you may sit down and find that your mind, for whatever reason, doesn't want to concentrate on one thing, that it's going to wander all over the place. Then what do you do? This is a really common problem.

I remember going on a one-day retreat not long after I started reading MCTB and deciding I was going to sit and concentrate just on understanding anicca. Specifically, I was going to do like Daniel prescribed and observe nothing but the sensations of the tips of my index fingers. I was going to understand anicca, goddamnit, and I was going to do it this way.

Well, obviously my mind laughed at me. It went to everything and anything, just not the fingertips. My plan was ruined.

Now, there are many ways I could have responded to this. Mind you, this is the beginning of an eight-hour day of meditation. You think 40 mins is hard? You really need to think carefully here about what you're going to do, because otherwise, as the ski instructor from South Park said, You're Gonna Have A Bad Time.

So I did the opposite. I let the awareness go wide open. Instead of a narrow focus, I let the consciousness go absolutely anywhere it wanted to go - from the tip of the nostrils to the weirdest philosophical concept - but I noted everything as it occurred: feeling ... tasting ... unpleasant ... mental image ... thinking ... imagining ... etc.

No one had ever shown me freestyle noting like that. It just seemed right. I was astonished when I read later in MCTB, the Space Aliens part, and saw it was exactly what I had done. It wasn't really genius on my part. I was just sensitive to the moment, and instead of having this rigid attitude of, "Okay, the book says to work on this first, so I'm gonna work on this first," I was just in touch with the experience and let my practice move with it.

And sure enough, I got the first ñana (hard!), and the second two showed up right afterward and confused me and I didn't know what to do with it. But that's fine, it's okay to get knocked around. It's happened at least 200 times since.

So you've read MCTB at least once, and you're reading it a second time now. Okay, good. If you can, let that information sit in the back of your mind, and trust that you'll call it up while you're meditating. Greet the experience where it is and work with it.

If you feel you really need to buckle down and master access concentration right now, okay, you can go with that. I'd recommend having a Plan B on hand, though. :-) The mind has an uncanny way of doing the exact opposite of what you want or expect it to do. You know that already. But what you may not know is that you have different options with regard to that. It starts with learning to sit with that indecision and that uncertainty and just seeing it for what it is.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 8:16 PM as a reply to C C C.
C C C:
Robert, I've been reading most of your posts lately and thing that most stands out is a tone of very high excitement.

That's spot on.

I find the following method better when my mind is over-heated. It's from Richard Rose's "The Imposter".

Thanks for the pointer.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 8:53 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with working on access concentration for awhile, if that's where your mind is at with things. The problem is, you may sit down and find that your mind, for whatever reason, doesn't want to concentrate on one thing, that it's going to wander all over the place. Then what do you do?

Well, I thought I'd just do what the various instructions tell me to do. Bring my mind back to the original object, and continue with the practice. And then over enough time and sufficient number of wanderings and gentle returnings, one gains capability. No? Isn't that the whole point?

You think 40 mins is hard? You really need to think carefully here about what you're going to do, because otherwise, as the ski instructor from South Park said, You're Gonna Have A Bad Time.

I'm very curious that you say that. Not the contents of what you say, but the fact that you said it.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you on the path?

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 8:22 PM as a reply to fivebells ..
fivebells .:
... there is no way in hell you can get enlightened by contemplating quantum mechanics.

Something is niggling me about a couple of things people have said to me. I'm not concerned about what you just said, but I am curious as to why you said it.

Can you tell me about your practice? What stage on what path have you reached?

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 9:00 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Just wanted to add a snippet of good teaching from Kenneth Folk, and it relates to one's attitude towards practice, and how a vibe of high excitement can turn you into a hardcore practitioner and all the hardcore problems associated with that.

I once saw a move called Harlem Nights. Terrible movie, but it had one funny and important scene. Richard Pryor's character and his wife are in bed together. The wife says, "Let's make love all day, real slow and sensual. Then we'll make love allllll night. Then, we'll make love alllll morning."

Richard Pryor is getting this uncomfortable look on his face. He says, "Baby, how 'bout we make love real hard... for twenty minutes?"

In order to get enlightened, you have to take the feminine approach to practice. The masculine [read: hardcore] approach will never work. Doing it really hard for twenty minutes is a recipe for anxiety, frustration, and failure. If, on the other hand, you can keep up the gentle pressure of attention all day long, from the time you wake up in the morning until the time you go to sleep at night, you can't help but awaken.



Have you read: "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, An Unusually Gentle, Loving and Feminine Dharma Book"?

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 9:19 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Robert McLune:
I'm not concerned about what you just said, but I am curious as to why you said it.

Can you tell me about your practice? What stage on what path have you reached?


Where I'm at: I know the path, I know how to walk it, I've tasted the fruit, and I'm committed to building my life from it.

Why I said it: Enlightenment is not a conceptual attainment, and depends only on observations which can be made from personal experience. The ontological claims of a theory like quantum mechanics simply don't pertain to the phenomenological issue awakening addresses.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 11:18 PM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Hi Robert,

have you tried a visual object (kasina)? I would not recommend staring at it for 40 minutes on the first try, but to start gently, at 5-10min. I emphasize the "gently" bit, but the practice is self-regulating because you'll have tears and snot running down your face if you are like me and strain too much on the first sit emoticon keep some tissue paper nearby.

You can use it as a "warm-up" exercise for breath meditation.

My kasina is a saucer-sized grey disk cut from a breakfast cereal box, and stuck to the wall at about eye height. You can lower the height if that is too uncomfortable.

Cheers,
Florian.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/11/12 11:44 PM as a reply to fivebells ..
fivebells .:
[Why I said it: Enlightenment is not a conceptual attainment, and depends only on observations which can be made from personal experience. The ontological claims of a theory like quantum mechanics simply don't pertain to the phenomenological issue awakening addresses.

Sure, but it's not the content I'm asking about, nor what the content deals with. What were your motives for saying it? What insight, if any, did you glean from those motives? If you didn't glean any, why didn't you? Does *the fact that* you said it tell you anything about yourself, or about the nature of reality?

As to your stage on the path, are you a stream enterer or even beyond?

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/12/12 12:18 AM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Be utterly selfish when you are going for concentration practise which means do not hesitate to go into seclusion..jhana
is born out of pleasure born from seclusion/abandoning , which means putting aside any and all greed/distress wrt the world..the more pleasant the environment initially , the easier it will be to get concentration.
personally I live in a somewhat noisy surrounding and so I used to put cotton plugs..when you close
your eyes , you shut visual input, likewise you can do with ears..

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/12/12 8:39 AM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Robert McLune:
Fitter Stoke:
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with working on access concentration for awhile, if that's where your mind is at with things. The problem is, you may sit down and find that your mind, for whatever reason, doesn't want to concentrate on one thing, that it's going to wander all over the place. Then what do you do?

Well, I thought I'd just do what the various instructions tell me to do. Bring my mind back to the original object, and continue with the practice. And then over enough time and sufficient number of wanderings and gentle returnings, one gains capability. No? Isn't that the whole point?


That sounds like a good place to start.

I'm very curious that you say that. Not the contents of what you say, but the fact that you said it.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you on the path?


3rd path.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/12/12 9:48 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
3rd path.

Cool. And forgive my ignorance -- I know the names for what's "out there" but I'm not trying to understand them too much until I get there -- but is that pre- or post- stream-entry?

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/12/12 10:06 AM as a reply to Robert McLune.
It comes after stream-entry. Stream-entry is the 1st path.

RE: OK, Let's Do This
Answer
11/12/12 10:27 AM as a reply to Robert McLune.
Robert McLune:
Sure, but it's not the content I'm asking about, nor what the content deals with. What were your motives for saying it? What insight, if any, did you glean from those motives? If you didn't glean any, why didn't you? Does *the fact that* you said it tell you anything about yourself, or about the nature of reality?


Motive: To help your practice.

Insight on a moment to moment level, as I chat on a Buddhist forum, and recalled hours later? My mindfulness is not there yet, and neither is my insight practice. What it tells me about myself in retrospect is that I like to help people with their meditation practice and I'm skeptical of intellectual fabrications posing as meditation exercises. (Not that I'm against intellectual fabrications in general. I like to help people with Math, too.) I'm happy to stipulate that that something else may have been going on there. If you have any insight on the matter yourself, I welcome your feedback.

Robert McLune:
As to your stage on the path, are you a stream enterer or even beyond?


Stream enterer according to the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)#Sutta_Pitaka.27s_list_of_ten_fetters]fetters model.