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Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?

Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
belief compassion qualia solipsism vegetarianism
Answer
12/7/12 1:58 PM
The title of this thread (Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?) might sound like a joke but it serves as a shorthand for the central question I'm raising. I've seen on other forums that discussions of vegetarianism often descend into dogmatic pronouncements and attempts by participants to out-enlighten one another. I'm hoping the title of this thread will jog people's memories of what I'm actually asking about.

First, some background. Back in 2006 I suddenly realized that I'd almost completely stopped eating animal products. There were still some animal-derived ingredients in my diet (like whey) but for the most part I'd stopped. There was no effort; it just happened.

At first I couldn't explain why I'd stopped but over time I came up with various “reasons.” If it's relevant I can go into detail but briefly I'll say I'm uncomfortable with animals being raised in appalling conditions for our benefit. If I could care about the suffering or a cat or a dog — or you — I could care just as much about a cow or pig.

Now, I've heard some very wise people say that vegetarianism amounts to a mind game, a habit of the intellect. Sometimes they make a darn good case of it, making me wonder if my vegetarianism is just a conceit.

On the other hand, I have no direct evidence that other people exist. I cannot experience your experience. For all I know you are a mental fiction. Perhaps you'd be quite tasty with some fava beans and a nice Chianti, but so far I have not been tempted to try that experiment. (I don't like Chianti.)

If vegetarianism is a conceit, as many wise people have alleged, then ... so too is my tendency to care about other people. Does that add up? I could be wrong.

If you understand what I'm wondering about, please share your comments. I'll stick with this thread until ... well, I'm expecting it to devolve. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 2:35 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Did those "wise people" also tell you how they came to the conclusion that vegetarianism is a conceit, or did you just took their word for it?

Personally, i am "against" vegetarianism because i'm vegan.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 3:26 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Welcome to the DhO Timothy,

I've seen on other forums that discussions of vegetarianism often descend into dogmatic pronouncements and attempts by participants to out-enlighten one another.


Excellent. Let's hope it stays on other forums.

How has being vegetarian / not being vegetarian affected your practice?

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 4:28 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:
How has being vegetarian / not being vegetarian affected your practice?

As far as I can tell it hasn't been a direct factor but I have seen protracted debates about it by people on the path. Some claim that you can't be enlightened unless you're vegan while others claim that if you avoid meat you're stuck in thought and belief. Some tell me that I shouldn't waste time on such questions. My gut feeling is that a bit of clarity might remove some barriers, so I'm bringing it up here in this forum.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 4:46 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Timothy Campbell:
Bagpuss The Gnome:
How has being vegetarian / not being vegetarian affected your practice?

As far as I can tell it hasn't been a direct factor but I have seen protracted debates about it by people on the path. Some claim that you can't be enlightened unless you're vegan while others claim that if you avoid meat you're stuck in thought and belief. Some tell me that I shouldn't waste time on such questions. My gut feeling is that a bit of clarity might remove some barriers, so I'm bringing it up here in this forum.


My advice would be to eat what works best for you, put such navel gazing debates to one side and get back on the cushion. Seriously, you could die tomorrow...

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 6:27 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Timothy Campbell:

On the other hand, I have no direct evidence that other people exist. I cannot experience your experience. For all I know you are a mental fiction.


Taking this view, what evidence do you have the you exist either? As your topic tag suggests this is a solipsistic view point. Now I ask - is your experience (your felt sense of being) one of solipsism or have you arrived at this view through logical deduction based upon the premise of a self? Ie. I exist, all I can know for sure is that. From your writing I would inuit it to be the latter. If it is the former, I doubt this would be an issue for you.

Timothy Campbell:

If vegetarianism is a conceit, as many wise people have alleged, then ... so too is my tendency to care about other people. Does that add up? I could be wrong.


So, if indeed it is the latter (a logical deduction) perhaps you view your caring for animals and other people as a potential conceit is because you believe your logical deduction (the solipsism view) to be the truth. So perhaps the dissonance/conflict is that you feel caring for other people (and animals) and yet you cling to the thought of solipsism as being the truth. What a tricky knot.

If it is the former (the felt sense of being The Being), I would wager there would not be any doubt about view and hence any conflict regardless of moral implications (normal notions of morality are in the back seat by this point). This point of view is more difficult to explain considering it is not my experience in this moment.

Obviously I've made many assumptions here through laziness. Anyways, some thought bubbles on a lazy Saturday morning here in Australia.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 10:31 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
I was raised a vegetarian and remained so for 28 years and then turned a hardcore vegan. I would protest outside
KFCs and the like to the point of being arrested once. In the end, what did all this sticking to a belief give me ?
suffering. period.

I gave up taking any sides and now I'm a vegetarian (because of 28 yrs of conditioning) and the result ? I am no longer
suffering because of the whole diet thing.

There are actually free people and theravada monks who regularly eat meat and I dont think they have suffering..
if end of your own suffering is your goal , then you've got to see how sticking to any belief ( no matter how 'true'
it appears ) leads to suffering.

Regarding eating humans , you draw the line somewhere for communal harmony , fellowship regard
..given a choice to live for the rest of your life on an island with just one more animal or a human , whom would you
choose and why ?

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 10:34 PM as a reply to Matt L.
Bagpuss The Gnome:
My advice would be to eat what works best for you, put such navel gazing debates to one side and get back on the cushion. Seriously, you could die tomorrow...

As the Original Post mentioned, I've heard that piece of advice countless times. I've also heard advice in other directions countless times. I'll add your vote to the “Never Mind” pile.

— — —

Matt L:
... what evidence do you have the you exist either?

The “you” (or “self”) part is (as most people in forums like this know) a convenient fiction. The evidence I have for something existing is a different matter.

... is your experience (your felt sense of being) one of solipsism ...?

I included “solipsism” in the tags because whenever I watch enlightenment-seeking people discussing vegetarianism some of them come up with a “How do you know it's all real?” argument. My personal view on solipsism is this: If solipsism is true, why such an elaborate fiction? I have trouble imagining that (1) I am all there is and (2) I'm actively screwing with myself and (3) I'm actively hiding from myself.

I'm not looking for a discussion about solipsism, though. If somebody finds that topic interesting I invite them to start a new thread.

... perhaps you view your caring for animals and other people as a potential conceit is because you believe your logical deduction (the solipsism view) to be the truth.

I cannot disprove solipsism. I neither support it nor deny it. I simply note that many people present arguments that seem to boil down to solipsism. These often take the form, “No perception you have is separate from the perceiver.” Taken to extremes (as some neo-Advaita people seem to do) this strikes me as indistinguishible from solipsism.

... I've made many assumptions here through laziness.

The assumptions took us away from the question, alas. I wish there was a polite way I could suggest to people “Please read the original post again.”

If that post isn't sufficiently clear, let me say that I'd like people to make this topic less about me and more about an (apparent) contradiction:

(1) some people assert that we should liberate all sentient beings; and
(2) we do not share qualia with any other being; therefore
(3) we do not know that other beings are even remotely as they appear

Here's the rub, my friend: if we can say, “It's all just illusion!” then what's to stop us from eating a dog or a cow or another human being? Aesthetics? (This is what Osho once said about this matter, but I took that to be a cop-out.)

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 10:40 PM as a reply to Shashank Dixit.
Shashank Dixit:
... you've got to see how sticking to any belief ( no matter how 'true' it appears ) leads to suffering.

This is apparently so. This is, in fact, what prompted my public objection to my own position!

Regarding eating humans , you draw the line somewhere for communal harmony...

So I'm being asked to predict that eating a human will result in a worse situation. There seems to be a belief — about myself! — inherent in this.

... given a choice to live for the rest of your life on an island with just one more animal or a human , whom would you choose and why?

Can you rephrase this question, please? So far you seem to be have the closest notion of the question I'm actually asking about, so I'd like to engage your actual intent.

Thanks.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/7/12 11:49 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Can you rephrase this question, please? So far you seem to be have the closest notion of the question I'm actually asking about, so I'd like to engage your actual intent.


At a certain point in time I used to think that I'm not a "speciest" - one who sees all species as somehow "equal"
until I realized I had cognitive dissonance when I asked this question - "Will I prefer the cutest puppy or some
other nice animal or a fellow human if I were to spend the rest of my life on an island ?"
As I am heterosexually inclined , I would always kind of get the answer as a hot woman and so I wouldn't know
why I would choose a fellow human and still not call myself a speciest.
Can you ask this same question and let me know what answer you get ?
Personally , I found that life simplifies if I choose to draw the line at humans and the rest of the animal kingdom.
and when life simplifies and there is no confusion, one suffers less emoticon

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 2:04 AM as a reply to Shashank Dixit.
Shashank Dixit:
"Will I prefer the cutest puppy or some other nice animal or a fellow human if I were to spend the rest of my life on an island?" Can you ask this same question and let me know what answer you get ?

I would want my companion to be somebody like Joshua Slocum. He might not have been very sociable but I'm pretty sure he could get us off the island safely. Maybe that's not a fair answer to your question.

If I was forced against my will, by some faceless, non-communicative entity, to spend the rest of my life on an island ... I'm having trouble relating this to my original post. Nonetheless, I'll try to get into the spirit of your question.

I appear to be an ape descendant. I appear to be a social animal. If what I've heard about isolation is any indication, humans need the companies of humans. I can only report this on faith, though, because I've never experienced that kind of isolation.

I have, on the other hand, seen how dogs and goats suffer when isolated from contact with their kind. Perhaps I would have that kind of reaction.

As far as I can tell, this speculation has strayed from the point of my original post. Maybe I'm missing some subtle point you're making.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 2:21 AM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
As far as I can tell it hasn't been a direct factor but I have seen protracted debates about it by people on the path. Some claim that you can't be enlightened unless you're vegan while others claim that if you avoid meat you're stuck in thought and belief. Some tell me that I shouldn't waste time on such questions. My gut feeling is that a bit of clarity might remove some barriers, so I'm bringing it up here in this forum.


If it has any effect it would probably be a marginal one, maybe you have a better sense of bodily energy or more wakefulness with lighter food. Karmically, if you are down with that stuff, the Buddha says your good as long as the animal isn't killed specifically for you, and he's a pretty top-level expert when it comes to karma.

btw this seems like the type of question which will never be answered until you decide you have better things to do, what could anyone say that would convince you 100% either way?

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 4:14 AM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
I appear to be an ape descendant. I appear to be a social animal. If what I've heard about isolation is any indication, humans need the companies of humans.


This is where we subconsciously draw a line between us and the rest of the animal kingdom.

This is the point I was trying to raise from the question I posed. We are fundamentally biased towards humans because
they are of our own specie and even though they may be tasty to eat , it may not be the most sensible thing to eat and
end what aids our survival ( = other humans )

maybe you are seeking the answer to something else ?

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 4:28 AM as a reply to Shashank Dixit.
Adam:
... the Buddha says ...

I'm not seeking an argument from authority.

... what could anyone say that would convince you 100% either way?

Well, to begin with they could show some evidence that they understand the question I asked. So far nobody seems to have done that.

It may be that people are simply skimming my first post, which was rather wordy.

— — —

Shashank Dixit:
We are fundamentally biased towards humans ...

Yes, we are. This isn't the least bit puzzling from a scientific point of view. But my original post attempted to dig deeper than that.

... maybe you are seeking the answer to something else?

Yes. Please see my reply to the previous poster and my original post.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 5:43 AM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Hi Timothy

I'm on a vegetarian diet - i.e. I don't eat visible bits of meat. This is a pragmatic approach, as the rest of my family is not vegetarian, and it's also an easy yardstick for people who invite me.

My choice of diet rests on many factors: moral (don't care much for the way animals are treated, and what it does to the people who treat them in this way), environmental (water, food for the animals, often soybeans, competes with the last few wilderness areas on the planet, and with food for other humans), health (though this is more of a grey area, since "pudding vegetarian" diet is not very healthy, whereas a varied diet which includes some meat is healthy; then there are individual differences).

When I started with this diet, there were repercussion in many areas of my life, which was interesting. Family members reacted, co-workers, friends... my shopping and eating habits shifted (less junk food to go)... and mindfulness increased, since I closely watched what I ate and how I ate it. This increase in mindfulness was actually what surprised me most.

On to your post:

Timothy Campbell:
If vegetarianism is a conceit, as many wise people have alleged, then ... so too is my tendency to care about other people. Does that add up?


Since this is the only real question in your post, I'll go into it. If this isn't what you were about, please clarify.

In a way, all intellectual "content" is conceit. If I react to it with attraction, aversion, or by tuning out (delusion), then it's just another prop in the big game of suffering. Being attracted to vegetarianism (in one of its many forms), or being defensive about eating meat (or other animal products), or pretending that raising animals for the purpose of killing and eating them is not an issue and does not have any consequences at all - all of this is just taking a position in the game and acting from that. So that's what I assume the wise people mean when they call vegetarianism a "conceit": not as the "tuning out/pretending it's not there" move within the game, but from a perspective which sees it for the game it is.

With that said, does caring about other beings, human or animal, add up with seeing the game for a game? It becomes a question of "who cares?" ("who is it that cares?"). Is there a "carer"? What if there is a carer, but he doesn't actually do anything about the situation? What if somebody who doesn't need to play to a little "carer" in his mind acts in ways to improve the situation (of farmers and farmed animals, workers on plantations which produce food for animals in distant countries, jugle animals in Brazil whose last habitats are destroyed to plant food for animals in distant countries... farmers in Africa whose land is bought up by investors in other countries to plant crops for bio-fuel production so the agricultural machines in wealthy countries can be powered by "green" gasoil?... )? Is it about the motivation or about the result? What, in other words, does "compassion" really mean? Is it an ornament to decorate myself with? Is it a way to express the complete vulnerability of our situation, that there is no firm ground to stand on, that there is nothing to pretend?

I'll stick with this thread until ... well, I'm expecting it to devolve. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised.


Cut out the manipulative nonsense, please.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 9:00 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
I liked Florians above post enough to try to offer something similar as a way to round out his vewpoint...

From the wikipedia articles on fetters, regarding the 3rd fetter "attachment to rites and rituals"
Wikipedia:
Attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)
Śīla refers to "moral conduct", vata (or bata) to "religious duty, observance, rite, practice, custom,"[26] and parāmāsa to "being attached to" or "a contagion" and has the connotation of "mishandling" the Dhamma.[27] Altogether, sīlabbata-parāmāso has been translated as "the contagion of mere rule and ritual, the infatuation of good works, the delusion that they suffice"[28] or, more simply, "fall back on attachment to precepts and rules."[29]


This suggests that rites and rituals such as vegetarianism can easily become a distraction as opposed to a useful tool.
There's a way to perform rites and rituals as a core part of tradition that helps still the ever changing world enough to pin down the three characteristics long enough to see them clearly. Vegetarianism serves as a path to enhanced Sila, but it is not the only way down that road. I think the belief is that if we remove the dilemma about whether or not meat-eating is OK, we can better focus on the reality. What vegetarianism is not (and what the 3rd fetter is all about identifying) is a mental hang-up, a point of yogic contention and discussions back and forth. It is merely a guideline to help still the mind.

There are some rituals that it is quite easy to see are essentially empty but useful: Putting on your robes before entering the meditation hall can serve to incline the mind toward Jhana, just as a nicotine addict feels better upon merely picking up an unlit cigarette. However, no monk that requires the wearing of robes would in any way suggest that robes are a necessary factor of awakening.

When you fall into the trap of, 'Am i doing this right?' You fail to be in the present moment, and fall back onto habits of abstract reasoning. I think its clear where the logical fallacy is; that you have tried to apply logic at all! Either vegeterianism is a ritual you observe, or it isn't. Making a big deal about it one way or the other, whether in public or in your head is the fetter. I know you called advice from the buddha 'appeals from authority,' but here's some more sound advice from our chubby friend:
Keep your opinions to yourself, lest you become attached to them'


Don't worry, though, Theravada Buddhism suggests that post stream entry you will be unable to be 'attached' to rites and rituals, including vegetarianism. So keep meditating.


PS. You blow off the advice that worrying about this isn't productive. But I think thats ultimately what we are all trying to say... pay attention to what its LIKE to experience worry about whether or not vegetarianism is correct, don't get lost in the worrying. Seriously.. we can tell this is a debate you've had a lot and I think we probably are drawing on our own experience that we've all been unduly attached to something or other in our lives and only in retrospect do we truly understand what the attachment was like.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/8/12 10:52 AM as a reply to m m a.
Florian Weps:
Since this is the only real question in your post, I'll go into it. If this isn't what you were about, please clarify.

You've correctly spotted the question I was asking!

In a way, all intellectual "content" is conceit.

Yes, in a way that's so.

What, in other words, does "compassion" really mean? Is it an ornament to decorate myself with?

Yes, we see plenty of people proudly wearing their vegetarianism or veganism as a medal.

What if somebody who doesn't need to play to a little "carer" in his mind acts in ways to improve the situation...

This is the best response I've heard so far in this thread. Thanks for that.

Cut out the manipulative nonsense, please.

That wasn't intentional manipulation; it was an expression of frustration. But it does sound manipulative. I could have kept it to myself.

— — —

m m a:
“silabbata-paramaso has been translated as "the contagion of mere rule and ritual”

Holy cats! That's the most ancient description of memetics I've ever encountered! Thanks for sharing that!

no monk that requires the wearing of robes would in any way suggest that robes are a necessary factor of awakening.

Ah, that's an interesting comparison!

Either vegeterianism is a ritual you observe, or it isn't.

It has acquired ritualistic aspects (such as scanning the list of ingredients before buying an unfamiliar item of food), but as noted in the original post it rather happened by itself, so its core wasn't ritual.

Seriously.. we can tell this is a debate you've had a lot...

I've never had this particular debate. It is exceedingly rare that I speak to anybody about vegetarianism. The frustration I alluded to above (in my reply to Florian) concerns the kinds of responses I tend to get on forums. Specifically, there's a whole lot of what might be called “talking down from the pinnacle of attainment.” If this forum is different — I haven't studied every nook and cranny — I apologize.

... pay attention to what its LIKE to experience worry about whether or not vegetarianism is correct, don't get lost in the worrying.

That's a valid point. I alluded to it in my original post by saying vegetarianism could be (or become) a conceit. I can clearly see that.

I suppose that what concerns me is that I've encountered several people who are liberated in one fashion or another and they've all denigrated vegetarianism. At the same time, though, they speak of liberating humanity. This strikes me as a very specific dividing line.

I can understand denigrating an “ism” — that's a no-brainer. But my concern is not about the eating of meat. My concern is about the suffering of apparently sentient beings. (That word “apparently” is key; I don't know that you, or the family cat, are sentient.) I care not if an animal dies to feed somebody. What concerns me is the months or years of industrialized suffering that we humans subject animals to as we serve our desires.

Should I turn my back on that concern? Should I merely shrug if there's a puppy mill next door? It appears that many purportedly liberated people say I should and ultimately must. This, to me, creates a paradox: they care to liberate sentient life, but don't care if sentient life suffers. Huh? What am I missing, here?

I can't resolve that puzzle. It's not crucial that I do resolve it, but the puzzle ... puzzles me.

— — —

Thank you, Florian & m m a, for your marvelous replies.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/9/12 9:45 AM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Florian Weps, m m a: +1

Here are different words pointing in the same direction:

We suffer because we make distinctions (aka 'fabrications'). If we make a distinction between vegetarianism and not vegetarianism, and we decide that one of them is good and the other is not, we invest our selves in the problem - literally extending our sense of self/ego to encompass our vision of what is right. This creates conflict/dissonance/stress for the very simple reason that one will encounter someone/something that is of the opposite conviction/persuasion, or is simply ignorant of or apathetic about the issue and is therefore antithetic to our position/conviction/persuasion.

Whenever you experience dissonance, find the implicit distinction and ask: "is this worth suffering for?". The solution is not delusion (ie. stick-your-fingers-in-your-ears-LALA-can't-hear-you) or conveniently "forgetting" (ie. repression) the distinction, but taking yourself out of the equation: ridding yourself of the ignorance of "false identification".

And here is where you clearly start taking issue:

Timothy Campbell:
Should I turn my back on that concern? Should I merely shrug if there's a puppy mill next door? It appears that many purportedly liberated people say I should and ultimately must. This, to me, creates a paradox: they care to liberate sentient life, but don't care if sentient life suffers. Huh? What am I missing, here?


Instead of spelling out my own understanding of why you take issue here, may I suggest you ponder it yourself and reach that understanding in your own way?

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/9/12 11:32 AM as a reply to Stian Gudmundsen Høiland.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
Instead of spelling out my own understanding of why you take issue here, may I suggest you ponder it yourself and reach that understanding in your own way?

I have done so in the past. I posted my question here because six years of pondering (and meditating etc.) was fruitless.

Although I have not brought up the topic personally, I've read discussions about this matter (seen through the lens of vegetarianism) on various Buddhist / Liberation / Freedom / No-self / etc. boards. These taught me nothing. Rather, they underlined my opinion that the vast majority of people posting in online forums are merely playing the role of being fully awakened — they've got themselves utterly fooled. (I'm no exception, of course.)

We suffer because we make distinctions...

Indeed that's so. However, as far as I can tell, our actions demonstrate that some distinctions are legitimate. Some of us floss our teeth; some of us do not. I don't berate “the flossers” for acting on the distinction nor do I crusade against “the non-flossers”. The ramifications of flossing are clear, whether or not one believes. In a similar vein, the ramifications of industrialized animal usage seem clear, regardless of what one believes.

I've known a handful of people who struck me as genuinely liberated (as opposed to merely playing the part, as we see so often online). I've ask them about paradoxical matters (enabling animal suffering, flossing teeth, assisting others to liberation, drinking purified rather than possibly stagnant water etc.) and their answers consistently indicate to me that they have not resolved the paradox.

This might mean something. The usual explanation is that “examining such distinctions can be a waste of energy.” I can see a certain validity to that position and have experienced the truth of it.

On the other hand, it might that U.G. Krishnamurti was right when he said that enlightenment, as generally presented, is “bullshit” (his exact word). The more I examine the various incarnations of awakening, the more I suspect that every awakening is shot through with illusion (except that there are certain standard misconceptions that have been removed).

... we decide that one of them is good and the other is not, we invest our selves in the problem...

Yes, if I went on a pro-flossing crusade I'd cause pain in myself and others. This does not mean the distinction is bogus. Similarly, the distinction between participating (or not participating) in the industrial production of animal products is not a bogus distinction.

A bogus aspect arises if I become a crusader about the matter. I do not. If I was invested in vegetarianism I wouldn't be attempting to deconstruct it here. Rather, I'd be attempting to make people into vegetarians. I don't do that. This thread is not about creating new vegetarians; it is about a paradox.

... here is where you clearly start taking issue:

And here is where you misconstrue what I'm saying. I speak of me but the question isn't about me. It is about the paradox.

RE: Should Vegetarians Eat Humans?
Answer
12/9/12 12:55 PM as a reply to Timothy Campbell.
Timothy Campbell:
This, to me, creates a paradox: they care to liberate sentient life, but don't care if sentient life suffers. Huh? What am I missing, here?


How do you know that they care to liberate sentient life? Is the supposed caring only in words or is it in action also?