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New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path

The article is called "The Anxiety of the Long Distance Meditator" by Jeff Warren. I have mixed feelings about the article but it is indeed interesting. Hardcore Dharma goes mainstream, or something. Big thanks to my pal Buddy for emailing me the article.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/the-anxiety-of-the-long-distance-meditator/#postComment

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/17/12 11:17 PM as a reply to Alan Smithee.
*shudders*

(maybe my response has to do with reading the comments)

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 1:41 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
*shudders*

(maybe my response has to do with reading the comments)


I know. The public appears completely confused. Per usual.

Here are some of the choicer tidbits...

"To be clear, meditation can be a good remedy for people of mental afflictions."

"Our lives are filled with stream-entry experiences [...] Life is not a silent retreat."

"Self absorbed belly button lint picking. If you want enlightenment go help someone in need."

"You did everything right, and discovered everything that needs to be discovered [...] The most wonderful and sublime quality of meditation is that it has no purpose. It takes a lot of meditation to discover this. It's a radical concept."

"This is great--it's so much better that the meditator doesn't get stream entry. I like that he fails, and that the teacher is disappointed [...] Does this mean I am enlightened?"

"I have had a 'stream entry' moment, but I cheated: I got it from a psychedelic mushroom trip."

"Doesn't Buddhism stress a connection with a community? This sounds awful."

"Watching a TV commercial about erectile dysfunction, it suddenly occurred to me that, in advancing age, erectile function is abnormal and so-called erectile dysfunction is normal. For some odd reason, we think it is natural to continue functioning sexually way into old age, but we are wrong. Nature has other plans. Just so, it just might be, that the anxiety we feel over the separation between self and... everything else, is normal. It's an understanding of the natural, real state of existence. Meditation, drugs, and various other techniques are like those drugs that address erectile dysfunction--an attempt to alter the natural state of affairs."

"There are people, albeit a rarefied bunch, who can practice like a wounded deer"

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 1:34 AM as a reply to Alan Smithee.
Expect more stuff like that on the DhO in the near future!

N A:
Expect more stuff like that on the DhO in the near future!


Nah, that blog post will be forgotten in an instant I reckon. It'd take a much more thorough piece in the mainstream website/paper to cause a ruckus...

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 7:58 AM as a reply to Alan Smithee.
"This is great--it's so much better that the meditator doesn't get stream entry. I like that he fails, and that the teacher is disappointed [...] Does this mean I am enlightened?"


That one is my favorite. Describes the Western dharma experience perfectly.

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 8:59 AM as a reply to Alan Smithee.
Why oh why does it have to be so fantastical? The more obscure and wrong the comment is the more 'likes' it gets... I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Pål S.:
Why oh why does it have to be so fantastical? The more obscure and wrong the comment is the more 'likes' it gets... I don't want to live on this planet anymore.


Unless you develop a thick skin toward this kind of stuff, you can never go on group retreat.

We need our own, hardcore retreat center, where we can all crackle with the intensity of ninjas!

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 9:35 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
"This is great--it's so much better that the meditator doesn't get stream entry. I like that he fails, and that the teacher is disappointed [...] Does this mean I am enlightened?"


That one is my favorite. Describes the Western dharma experience perfectly.


Doesn't it just? I swear at one place here in the UK the teacher would likely faint at the temerity of even suggesting stream entry as a serious goal! emoticon

Pål S.:
Why oh why does it have to be so fantastical? The more obscure and wrong the comment is the more 'likes' it gets... I don't want to live on this planet anymore.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhQst2mFlJM

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 10:59 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Bagpuss The Gnome:
Fitter Stoke:
"This is great--it's so much better that the meditator doesn't get stream entry. I like that he fails, and that the teacher is disappointed [...] Does this mean I am enlightened?"


That one is my favorite. Describes the Western dharma experience perfectly.


Doesn't it just? I swear at one place here in the UK the teacher would likely faint at the temerity of even suggesting stream entry as a serious goal! emoticon


If the comment had said, "I like that he fails, and that the teacher is happy," it would have been a perfect fit.

I used to sit with a group of people at someone's house nearby. They were all very nice, and the couple who owned the place was gracious enough to allow people, some of them strangers, to use their home as a practice space for a full day of silent meditation. And so I would try to remind myself of this, over and over, when the spirit of defeatism was especially thick, which it often was.

Everyone was really sickly looking: pale to the point of being translucent. And at the end, when it was time to share the results of the day's practice, there were nothing but reports of being tired, being sad, being defeated, and being "okay" with all of that.

I'm not proud of this, but when it was my turn to share, I would just lie and say, "Nothing really to report. It was great to share today with you all. Namaste," even if I had just accessed whatever jhanas and gotten a fruition so strong it nearly picked me up off the cushion.

The guy running it once said, "We've all been doing this for years now, and we know we're not going to see anything new" - and he said it as something positive. I'm almost certain no one in the room was above the A&P.

The culture is really about celebrating being frail, celebrating sucking, celebrating failure. I saw the same thing at a major retreat center (a center which I'm sure all these people have been to many times). If you come out and say, "I did these practices like this, these were the results, I got into these states, and I've passed through these stages," you're going to be ostracized. Anything other than, "I failed, and that's super," is going to be treated as suspect.

For some reason I was under the impression that things were not this bad in the UK.

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:01 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
The culture is really about celebrating being frail, celebrating sucking, celebrating failure. I saw the same thing at a major retreat center (a center which I'm sure all these people have been to many times). If you come out and say, "I did these practices like this, these were the results, I got into these states, and I've passed through these stages," you're going to be ostracized. Anything other than, "I failed, and that's super," is going to be treated as suspect.


That's why this article is a really good thing. It really doesn't matter if the commenters don't get it, or if 98% of readers don't get it. Just as we all found our way here or to MCTB through some link or other, a few others now will too. A few of those will put the instructions to practice. That's how meditation culture will change. And we're not afraid of change, right? Riiiight.

This thread reminds me a little of the hipster war-cry: I liked enlightenment before it was big. And that may be a good analogy for the developmental stage of pragmatic dharma right now. Maybe it's about to get big. In an age of viral marketing, it almost has to grow. I suspect people feel a bit threatened that our cozy little community could get blown-up by tourists. Personally, I think the forums could use some fresh input, even if it's from the poor and huddled masses. All you Buddhas can take it.

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:18 AM as a reply to Some Guy.
Jason B:
This thread reminds me a little of the hipster war-cry: I liked enlightenment before it was big. And that may be a good analogy for the developmental stage of pragmatic dharma right now. Maybe it's about to get big. In an age of viral marketing, it almost has to grow. I suspect people feel a bit threatened that our cozy little community could get blown-up by tourists. Personally, I think the forums could use some fresh input, even if it's from the poor and huddled masses. All you Buddhas can take it.


And it's happened before, when there was a Buddhist Geeks interview with Daniel, sending lots of new participants to the DhO a few years ago.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:20 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
And it's happened before, when there was a Buddhist Geeks interview with Daniel, sending lots of new participants to the DhO a few years ago.


That was probably me. I really appreciated everyone tolerating my cluelessness. (Still do!)

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:24 AM as a reply to Some Guy.
Jason B:
Fitter Stoke:
The culture is really about celebrating being frail, celebrating sucking, celebrating failure. I saw the same thing at a major retreat center (a center which I'm sure all these people have been to many times). If you come out and say, "I did these practices like this, these were the results, I got into these states, and I've passed through these stages," you're going to be ostracized. Anything other than, "I failed, and that's super," is going to be treated as suspect.


That's why this article is a really good thing. It really doesn't matter if the commenters don't get it, or if 98% of readers don't get it. Just as we all found our way here or to MCTB through some link or other, a few others now will too. A few of those will put the instructions to practice. That's how meditation culture will change. And we're not afraid of change, right? Riiiight.

This thread reminds me a little of the hipster war-cry: I liked enlightenment before it was big. And that may be a good analogy for the developmental stage of pragmatic dharma right now. Maybe it's about to get big. In an age of viral marketing, it almost has to grow. I suspect people feel a bit threatened that our cozy little community could get blown-up by tourists. Personally, I think the forums could use some fresh input, even if it's from the poor and huddled masses. All you Buddhas can take it.


You mean more and more people might get turned onto Dan's "lurid" book as a result of this article?

Wait a minute. Lurid?

Wtf.

Plus, the article doesn't do a very good job of conveying Dan's particular type of energy, intelligence, charisma, and generosity [he's given me advice numerous time, etc.]: "Eyes shock-widened," his body "humming with energy," clapping real loud, all the while making "strange guttural clicks as he moved, like the bionic man" doesn't quite cut it in my book.

My immediate reaction after reading this article was that I could write a better one, which more precisely captures the wonky and controversial but vital spirit of Hardcore Dharma, Dan, and the craziness of sitting on long retreats.

It seems like perhaps the author Jeff Warren may have had [in the end] some kind of unresolved issues with Dan [felt that Dan was disappointed in him, etc.] which I think ended up getting translated into the article's weird tone.

Plus, I think the word "lurid" to describe MCTOB is just plain inaccurate and gives the wrong impression.

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:28 AM as a reply to Some Guy.
Jason B:
Fitter Stoke:
The culture is really about celebrating being frail, celebrating sucking, celebrating failure. I saw the same thing at a major retreat center (a center which I'm sure all these people have been to many times). If you come out and say, "I did these practices like this, these were the results, I got into these states, and I've passed through these stages," you're going to be ostracized. Anything other than, "I failed, and that's super," is going to be treated as suspect.


That's why this article is a really good thing. It really doesn't matter if the commenters don't get it, or if 98% of readers don't get it. Just as we all found our way here or to MCTB through some link or other, a few others now will too. A few of those will put the instructions to practice. That's how meditation culture will change. And we're not afraid of change, right? Riiiight.

This thread reminds me a little of the hipster war-cry: I liked enlightenment before it was big. And that may be a good analogy for the developmental stage of pragmatic dharma right now. Maybe it's about to get big. In an age of viral marketing, it almost has to grow. I suspect people feel a bit threatened that our cozy little community could get blown-up by tourists. Personally, I think the forums could use some fresh input, even if it's from the poor and huddled masses. All you Buddhas can take it.


This sounds about right.

Most of the people writing those comments - as well as most of the hyperpsychologized dharma tourists at the retreat centers - aren't going to get interested in the stuff we're doing, will continue to buy Buddha figurines, will continue to titter when someone mentions "enlightenment" or "stream-entry", and will continue with their "namastes". It won't make any difference.

What's exciting is the thought of an entirely new generation getting turned on to serious meditative and contemplative technologies, putting those to use in a serious way, and adding their results to the ongoing experiment we've got going on.

At the moment, the majority of people doing that are pretty adventurous and don't mind being on the fringes of things (and may even enjoy that aspect of it). But might the kind of stuff we're doing here one day be as mainstream as something like MBSR or "mindfulness"? Maybe. I doubt most people would have expected to see this practice mentioned anywhere in the NYT, ever. So who knows what's possible?

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:33 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Jason B:
This thread reminds me a little of the hipster war-cry: I liked enlightenment before it was big. And that may be a good analogy for the developmental stage of pragmatic dharma right now. Maybe it's about to get big. In an age of viral marketing, it almost has to grow. I suspect people feel a bit threatened that our cozy little community could get blown-up by tourists. Personally, I think the forums could use some fresh input, even if it's from the poor and huddled masses. All you Buddhas can take it.


And it's happened before, when there was a Buddhist Geeks interview with Daniel, sending lots of new participants to the DhO a few years ago.

Cheers,
Florian


Weirdly - or not - I found MCTB by doing a Google search on "vipassana vendetta".

Also, I didn't find the NYT piece that bad. I agree, the author had some projection issues going on with Daniel, but it's not surprising that something like that would happen if you're doing a month-long, intense retreat like that with a guy. I thought Daniel's manic intensity came across nicely. Maybe that doesn't appeal to everyone, but then none of this stuff we're doing appeals to everyone. So who cares?

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:42 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:
Jason B:
This thread reminds me a little of the hipster war-cry: I liked enlightenment before it was big. And that may be a good analogy for the developmental stage of pragmatic dharma right now. Maybe it's about to get big. In an age of viral marketing, it almost has to grow. I suspect people feel a bit threatened that our cozy little community could get blown-up by tourists. Personally, I think the forums could use some fresh input, even if it's from the poor and huddled masses. All you Buddhas can take it.


And it's happened before, when there was a Buddhist Geeks interview with Daniel, sending lots of new participants to the DhO a few years ago.

Cheers,
Florian


That's how I discovered the possibility of awakening, too: the Buddhist Geeks interview. I imagine there are some who will read that article and think "Whoa! There are people who really go for it? There are teachers who talk about enlightenment? This is something I can really do?" and their lives will be forever changed.

The desire to feel special or belong to a group of superior, cooler-than-average people is one I've experienced myself in many contexts including spiritual practice. It can be a motivating concept.

But given it's a glob of attachments and aversions it usually falls apart with enough practice.

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:46 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter:
Most of the people writing those comments - as well as most of the hyperpsychologized dharma tourists at the retreat centers - aren't going to get interested in the stuff we're doing, will continue to buy Buddha figurines, will continue to titter when someone mentions "enlightenment" or "stream-entry", and will continue with their "namastes". It won't make any difference.


Had I been drinking coffee, Id now be wiping it off the screen heh!

Fitter:

What's exciting is the thought of an entirely new generation getting turned on to serious meditative and contemplative technologies, putting those to use in a serious way, and adding their results to the ongoing experiment we've got going on.


Agreed. Though I'd like to see more people publishing results from other techniques as well as noting.

Fitter:

At the moment, the majority of people doing that are pretty adventurous and don't mind being on the fringes of things (and may even enjoy that aspect of it). But might the kind of stuff we're doing here one day be as mainstream as something like MBSR or "mindfulness"? Maybe. I doubt most people would have expected to see this practice mentioned anywhere in the NYT, ever. So who knows what's possible?


The mindulness/MBSR route really is the kind of thing it will take. Plain language, easily taught, supported etc. Minus the dogma. Unfortunately it will take more than a loose committee of enlightened folks to agree terminology. It will take one brilliant spark. Shinzen Young is about the closest we currently have to that I think, but even he's not going to take it all the way I reckon. Maybe it can't be taken all the way like "mindfulness". After all, it's a bit more complex and the qualifications for teaching it a little harder to attain. (if you could do an 8wk course and get enlightened I'd have done it! heh).

Daniel might be able to do it. But we'd have to magic him a bucket load of extra time and income emoticon

RE: New York Times article about Daniel Ingram, Stream Entry, and the Path
Answer
12/18/12 11:45 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
The use of the word lurid was odd. It almost sounds like a student writer picked a near-synonym from a thesaurus without knowing the real meaning. But if you read newspapers, you modulate your expectations. Reporting of health and science news in the NYT is ghastly. But publicity is publicity, with all its indispensable and lurid connotations.

BTW, as the comment thread over there grows there is a smattering of informed views.

[Googling vipassana vendetta.]