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Attainment/Practice Survey

Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 2:00 PM
I'm curious to know where the advanced (above stream-entry) meditators here are in terms of their attainments, current practice, and goals. Answer these questions if you're so inclined:

How many of the technical/MCTB paths have you completed?

How many of the 8 standard (4 rupa and 4 arupa) jhanas have you attained?

How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?

Have you attained Nirodha Samāpatti?

Has your progress been evaluated/monitored by a teacher?

If you have completed all four technical/MCTB paths, have you also attained or mastered any territory that you think is “above” those paths? If so, describe in detail.

Do you have attainments or mastery in traditions other than Buddhism?

What does your current practice consist in, and how long have you been at it?

What are some of your current goals, and when do you think you'll accomplish them?

Anything else you’d like to add?

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 2:12 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
My answers:

Fitter Stoke:
How many of the technical/MCTB paths have you completed?


Three. I'm about 80% confident of this. My current teacher seems more confident than this, though, and her standards are high. I'm neurotic, though.

How many of the 8 standard (4 rupa and 4 arupa) jhanas have you attained?


All of them, though I would not say I've mastered them.

How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?


I'm not sure. At least one of them.

Have you attained Nirodha Samāpatti?


I've landed in that area, though I have not yet mastered it.

Has your progress been evaluated/monitored by a teacher?


Yes. I've received one-on-one instruction for the last ten months.

If you have completed all four technical/MCTB paths, have you also attained or mastered any territory that you think is “above” those paths? If so, describe in detail.


N/A

Do you have attainments or mastery in traditions other than Buddhism?


No.

What does your current practice consist in, and how long have you been at it?


Current on-cushion practice is mostly anapanasati, supplemented by heavy, aggressive noting. Off-cushion practice is often some form of "3rd gear" practice: open awareness, direct path, or HAIETMOBA. I'll do choiceless noting if I'm having a particularly hard time disembedding. Sometimes self-inquiry ("who am I?").

What are some of your current goals, and when do you think you'll accomplish them?


I'd like to finish the fucking thing up some time in 2013 (by which I mean get 4th path). I'm currently taking two paths toward that. One path is to just keep going over the jhanas, doing the cycles, nailing things down, gaining mastery of higher strata of consciousness. I'd like to do a retreat this spring to help with that, since that's a good environment to quiet the mind and get into some very high-resolution investigation, but I sort of dislike retreat culture, so we'll see if I can get over that enough to do it.

The other path is to divert the stream through the stables, i.e., cut directly through the illusion, either by means of self-inquiry or 3rd gear-type technologies. I figure the more time I spend just letting reality shine through as it actually is, without any interference from "me", the more likely my mind is to tune in and finally see through the illusion of all this. I think of it as drilling from both sides, hoping to meet in the middle.

After that's done, it seems like there are many directions I can go in. I'll worry about that when I get there.

Anything else you’d like to add?


Yeah. I'm not exactly sure why, but doing this weird, off-beat, esoteric, at-times-aggressive, competitive, even hostile practice has made me much, much happier and peaceful than I was before I started. I'm really grateful I went down this road.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 3:32 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
2nd path, 8th jhana (only sometimes), no NS.

I've fiddled around with various practices in the past. 10 or 12 years ago I had a non-english speaking advaita style teacher. He would just say something like, "drop everything" over and over. I really didn't have the tools to take that practice beyond his teaching as it was in his presence, but there was something amazing about that and it did give me a sense that enlightenment of some kind was possible. Also around that time I had a pretty regular qi gong practice, which mainly relieved some stress and yielded some low-grade pyrotechnics but didn't really go anywhere in terms of insights or results. I believe my initial A+P was the result of reading a lot of psychotic literature, but I can't put a finger on when it was. My main practice has been cultivating the dark night as the driving force in my life, up until about 18 months ago. That was fun.

Early in 1st path I had a couple of Skype lessons with a teacher, but none since. I know I would have saved at least 4 months of incorrect practice if I'd had more direct access.

I hope to attain 3rd path yesterday.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 5:32 PM as a reply to Some Guy.
One of the most helpful things my own teacher did was to help me see how my questions were really about other questions, which were actually about my own practice. So when I see you ask these questions, I see these other questions hiding underneath (which would be pretty typical for 3rd path territory, though they can come up at other times):

Can I really wake up?

Do I need to master certain states or skills to wake up? Am I doing enough?

Is working with a teacher really important?

Is it enough that I've practiced in xyz tradition? Should I explore other approaches?

Where is this going?

What can I expect in the future?

...and so on. It's actually very fruitful to allow that you don't necessarily know the answers, and even if others report this or that, your own experience might differ. Embracing "not knowing" and allowing that things are far less under your control than you (like to) think is also productive.

Who is attaining things, if the self is just more phenomena and sensations arising and passing away? Who is desiring (clinging to) a specific outcome? Who is staking a territory on this non-ground, trying to fight the endless unfolding? All the practice spent observing the arising and passing away of phenomena, including the phenomena that make up our sense of self, and yet the desire to cling to permanent and defined things can't help but circle back around and around.

Third path is often notable for being a transition territory between the goal and effort driven practices that help people get started and get moving in a practice; and the recognition that things are far more spontaneous, less fixed, and less about "me" than one thinks. In fact by definition it has to stop being about "me."

I do not mean this answer to be annoying, which it may be. I know I often found these kinds of responses annoying when I received them, but I also learned a hell of a lot from looking at them in the way I suggest.

Cheers, Ona

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 6:16 PM as a reply to Some Guy.
Jason B:
I believe my initial A+P was the result of reading a lot of psychotic literature, but I can't put a finger on when it was. My main practice has been cultivating the dark night as the driving force in my life, up until about 18 months ago. That was fun.


I don't know how serious you're being, but you're cracking me up anyway.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 6:30 PM as a reply to Ona Kiser.
Ona Kiser:
One of the most helpful things my own teacher did was to help me see how my questions were really about other questions, which were actually about my own practice. So when I see you ask these questions, I see these other questions hiding underneath (which would be pretty typical for 3rd path territory, though they can come up at other times):

Can I really wake up?

Do I need to master certain states or skills to wake up? Am I doing enough?

Is working with a teacher really important?

Is it enough that I've practiced in xyz tradition? Should I explore other approaches?

Where is this going?

What can I expect in the future?

...and so on. It's actually very fruitful to allow that you don't necessarily know the answers, and even if others report this or that, your own experience might differ. Embracing "not knowing" and allowing that things are far less under your control than you (like to) think is also productive.

Who is attaining things, if the self is just more phenomena and sensations arising and passing away? Who is desiring (clinging to) a specific outcome? Who is staking a territory on this non-ground, trying to fight the endless unfolding? All the practice spent observing the arising and passing away of phenomena, including the phenomena that make up our sense of self, and yet the desire to cling to permanent and defined things can't help but circle back around and around.

Third path is often notable for being a transition territory between the goal and effort driven practices that help people get started and get moving in a practice; and the recognition that things are far more spontaneous, less fixed, and less about "me" than one thinks. In fact by definition it has to stop being about "me."

I do not mean this answer to be annoying, which it may be. I know I often found these kinds of responses annoying when I received them, but I also learned a hell of a lot from looking at them in the way I suggest.

Cheers, Ona


Are you addressing this to me? It doesn't seem to fit with Jason's reply.

Ever since I began this practice, I've been looking at this, looking at that, wondering about the right way, worrying, etc. It's not really new for me. Part of it is just genuine openness and curiosity about what people are doing. I've looked through the archives here and over on KFD, and I've seen people going through various transitions with their practice, but I'm not sure what they're doing right now. Hearing back from the old guard would help complete my obsessive stalker narrative. *cue The Police*

The sort of immediate motivation for writing this is that I remembered something Daniel has said a few times, which is that if you want to realize state X, find people who have already done it. This used to be as simple as hanging around here or KFD, but now it's occurred to me that there's so many ways you can go with this practice. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to complete 4th path, but I'm already thinking about where to go from there and what the possibilities are.

And you know, you look at my questions and see obvious neurosis. And that's fine, I'm not going to defend against that. (Okay, I'm defending myself, whatEVER.) But this is probably the least neurotic thing I've ever done. (Doing the MCTB paths, I mean.) Yeah, I'm asking squirrelly questions, but my practice is also going full steam ahead. I'm not pulling back from anything or even entertaining serious doubts about what I'm doing. A lot of this - including my questions about the Western esoteric tradition - is just genuine curiosity born of the fact that I've had my focus on just this one thing for the last year, and now I feel really comfortable with it, so I'm looking around and seeing what other resources I might want to bring in.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/21/12 8:04 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
Jason B:
I believe my initial A+P was the result of reading a lot of psychotic literature, but I can't put a finger on when it was. My main practice has been cultivating the dark night as the driving force in my life, up until about 18 months ago. That was fun.


I don't know how serious you're being, but you're cracking me up anyway.


It is funny and true. I was reading John Cage's writing and walking around amazed at the sounds of the world. I read Samuel Beckett's Unnameable and really saw that the self was a mental construction. I read a lot of poetry and got into concentrated states. I took Rimbaud literally about the "long, prodigious derangement of the senses." A lot of those poets were into either buddhism or magick, so I internalized a lot of those ideas and generally just blew my mind in a not very responsible way that entailed a lot of mad dreams and weird experiences.

(As an aside, related to your "why would anyone practice magick thread,"as a non-practitioner of magick, I think it has something to do with using the imagination, which the east seems to eschew.)

I didn't intend to cultivate the dark night as the driving force in my life, but it kind of turned out that way. It took me 15 years to practice in a way that didn't drive me bananas.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 2:34 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:


Are you addressing this to me? It doesn't seem to fit with Jason's reply.


Yeah, I hit the wrong 'reply'.

Fitter Stoke:
...The sort of immediate motivation for writing this is that I remembered something Daniel has said a few times, which is that if you want to realize state X, find people who have already done it.


Good advice, I think. I worked with one teacher formally for about a year, but along the way also started working with a former student of his in a more informal way, and still later began talking regularly to another former student. I still talk to the latter two regularly, and to other teachers/colleagues on occasion, as well as going to retreats or workshops now and then.

Fitter Stoke:
And you know, you look at my questions and see obvious neurosis. And that's fine, I'm not going to defend against that. (Okay, I'm defending myself, whatEVER.) But this is probably the least neurotic thing I've ever done.


I didn't think of your questions as neurotic at all. Completely normal. But given your position as a more experienced yogi, everything is a grand opportunity to peel the onion: every thought word and deed can be fodder for the insight machine, noticing how identity and desire are constructed.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 3:12 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
I'm curious to know where the advanced (above stream-entry) meditators here are in terms of their attainments, current practice, and goals. Answer these questions if you're so inclined:

How many of the technical/MCTB paths have you completed?


I woke up ("4th path" here) in March 2011.

Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 8 standard (4 rupa and 4 arupa) jhanas have you attained?

How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?

Have you attained Nirodha Samāpatti?


With the exception of three weeks of coaching in the first few jhanas once, which I got bored with, I have not tried to generate any of these states, but a teacher I spoke to a month ago said some of my descriptions of some meditation events matched NS and the first PLJ.

Fitter Stoke:
Has your progress been evaluated/monitored by a teacher?


Pretty much always. Alan Chapman was my formal teacher for a while, others have been more informal or for specific periods (such as a retreat, workshop).

Fitter Stoke:
If you have completed all four technical/MCTB paths, have you also attained or mastered any territory that you think is “above” those paths? If so, describe in detail.


The ideas of mastery, attainment and territory seem very irrelevant these days. Now and then I notice changes in things like the frequency of certain spontaneous states, the prevalence of certain experiences, but in general my interests are less interior and more exterior. (ie I'm more interested in decorating my new apartment than trying to map my mental states). Sometimes something funky happens in meditation and it's unusual enough I call up one of my colleagues or a teacher and ask if they ever had that happen or whether it has a name in their tradition (like with what seems to have been a Pure Land Jhana a while back).

Fitter Stoke:
Do you have attainments or mastery in traditions other than Buddhism?


I've done practices and reading/training in various spiritual traditions in the past, including Santeria, spiritism, western magick, several kinds of buddhism, qi gong and various Christian traditions.

Fitter Stoke:
What does your current practice consist in, and how long have you been at it?


For about the past year I've read the Divine Office (3 daily sets of prayers), attend mass most days of the week, sit at least one 30 minute period of silent meditation (sometimes more, sometimes not at all), and say a rosary. I try to pay attention during the day to making sure I am acting in a charitable and helpful way, being kind to others, etc. For the first 8 months of the year I was doing qi gong classes, but I stopped doing that when I started taking Gregorian chant classes. I also participate in a group that attends funerals to pray for the dead (at the request of their families) and I help out with various projects at the churches I attend. I spend time each day studying and reading, too, as well as doing daily life/administrative stuff (cooking, cleaning, bill paying, exercise) and spending some time each day teaching and writing.

Fitter Stoke:
What are some of your current goals, and when do you think you'll accomplish them?
I'm really into improving my ability to sing this Gregorian chant stuff right now; I'm picking out some cool old photos to print and hang on the walls; I'm working on memorizing more stuff for the church rituals; and I'm working on the giant backlog of books I want to read and writing I want to do. I just work on it a little every day, enjoy the process, and it will go where it goes. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, so no sense in fussing about things too far in advance.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 4:03 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:


How many of the technical/MCTB paths have you completed?


3 as of August 2012

Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 8 standard (4 rupa and 4 arupa) jhanas have you attained?


All of the above, however, since about a month after 3rd path, I no longer recognize any of the above states or try to access them. They now seem unnecessary, which, I guess, is the case considering many people wake up without accessing them.

Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?


All of the above. Same as the above answer. However, sometimes, these will show up out of nowhere if I sit long enough.

Fitter Stoke:
Have you attained Nirodha Samāpatti?


Yes, but not in a while. This is like the PL jhanas above, sometimes my attentions just goes to this spot and NS will happen unexpectedly.

Fitter Stoke:
Has your progress been evaluated/monitored by a teacher?


Yes, for the last year. I also try to speak to as many 'awake' people as I can.

Fitter Stoke:
Do you have attainments or mastery in traditions other than Buddhism?


No, and I almost don't even consider the attainments I have related to any tradition either. I have never read a sutra or any ancient texts, I just fell upon this looking for a pragmatic, straightforward way to see through the illusions we speak of here.

Fitter Stoke:
What does your current practice consist in, and how long have you been at it?


My practice now consists of non-practice. I am very, very goal oriented and this has now become something that is getting in the way. The constant seeking, etc, is just another manifestation of the small self. I sit on occasion, but do not consider this practice. The main practice, or non-practice, is looking for the 'selfing' process and just seeing it for what it is and not trying to change it. There is nothing to "do" anymore, it has to do itself.

Fitter Stoke:
What are some of your current goals, and when do you think you'll accomplish them?


Of course I want to wake up (4th path) eventually, but I cannot make this happen. It has to wake up to itself.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 1:04 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:

How many of the technical/MCTB paths have you completed?

Two, as of July 4, 2012.

How many of the 8 standard (4 rupa and 4 arupa) jhanas have you attained?

All of them.

How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?

I may have touched PL1, but I wouldn't put money on it.

Have you attained Nirodha Samāpatti?

No.

Has your progress been evaluated/monitored by a teacher?

I've worked with several teachers over Skype (Beth Resnick-Folk, Kenneth Folk, and Ron Crouch). I've also worked with a teacher in my area, and on retreats.

If you have completed all four technical/MCTB paths, have you also attained or mastered any territory that you think is “above” those paths? If so, describe in detail.

N/A

Do you have attainments or mastery in traditions other than Buddhism?

I have experience, but neither attainment nor mastery, of Christian meditation techniques, particularly centering prayer. I believe I got access concentration and may have even accessed 1st jhana when I was working with these techniques years ago.

I should also point out that I had a near-death experience with a spectacular A&P when I was 19. Of course I had no idea what to call it at that point.

What does your current practice consist in, and how long have you been at it?

I began practice in the pragmantic (oh, all right: hardcore) dharma vein exactly two years ago. For the first six months or so I did anapanasati, and began to access jhanas. Then I switched to noting and got 1st path about six months after that. One thing that happened on 1st path is that I got to equanimity, became complacent, slacked off, and fell back into the dukkhas. I had to work hard to get back into equanimity. I consider none of it wasted.

What are some of your current goals, and when do you think you'll accomplish them?

I'm looking to get 3rd path, but I don't know when. After that, 4th. Again, no timetable. Of course I'd love to have it be sooner rather than later, but I'm not worried. The only thing that bothers me is my tendency to slack off now and then. I did it again this past fall, and it took a lot of effort to bring myself back to the frame of mind for regular practice again.

Right now I'm working on traveling up and down the jhanic arc, with a view to getting to the Pure Lands or Nirodha Samapatti.

Edit: I also engage in mostly 2nd gear practice throughout the day as I think of it, which isn't nearly as often as I'd like it to be.

Anything else you’d like to add?

Only that I very much recognize what Ona says about 3rd pathers wanting to know what's what and feel some sense of certainty. I also find myself wondering what "I" am going to be like in 6 months . . . 1 year . . . whatever. I used to make plans for the future, think about what retirement would be like, for example, or wonder how I would cope with this and that. Now I realize I don't even know the basics of what my agenda or concerns will be in the future. I like that.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 2:42 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?


I'm not sure. At least one of them.


Revision: I've been through all 5 PL jhanas. Did it by following this recording. Highly recommended.

I still can't stabilize NS, and I think that's because I can't stabilize the 8th jhana. I pass over the spot associated with it, and there's a definite shift, but then I lose it and have to find it again. I'll eventually figure it out.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 4:28 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?


I'm not sure. At least one of them.


Revision: I've been through all 5 PL jhanas. Did it by following this recording. Highly recommended.

I still can't stabilize NS, and I think that's because I can't stabilize the 8th jhana. I pass over the spot associated with it, and there's a definite shift, but then I lose it and have to find it again. I'll eventually figure it out.


That podcast was fantastic. Initially, I felt I was letting them script me through the jhanas because they were pointing out details I hadn't noticed. I usually zoom through them and just get lost. But as we got to the formless jhanas and beyond I was anticipating their descriptions, and went straight through all 5 PL's. That was just so great! And I even got a touch of NS, I think. I saw the darkening of the field, the sinking down. Definitely not a complete shut-down though. I was still aware. There was a strong bliss wave upon resurfacing.

I mean, I just can't believe I got that experience through the internet. So, thank you for posting it! I need to spend more time over at the Hamilton Project for sure.

Fitter, what criteria was your teacher using for 3rd path?

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 8:58 PM as a reply to Some Guy.
Jason B:
Fitter Stoke:
Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?


I'm not sure. At least one of them.


Revision: I've been through all 5 PL jhanas. Did it by following this recording. Highly recommended.

I still can't stabilize NS, and I think that's because I can't stabilize the 8th jhana. I pass over the spot associated with it, and there's a definite shift, but then I lose it and have to find it again. I'll eventually figure it out.


That podcast was fantastic. Initially, I felt I was letting them script me through the jhanas because they were pointing out details I hadn't noticed. I usually zoom through them and just get lost. But as we got to the formless jhanas and beyond I was anticipating their descriptions, and went straight through all 5 PL's. That was just so great! And I even got a touch of NS, I think. I saw the darkening of the field, the sinking down. Definitely not a complete shut-down though. I was still aware. There was a strong bliss wave upon resurfacing.

I mean, I just can't believe I got that experience through the internet. So, thank you for posting it! I need to spend more time over at the Hamilton Project for sure.

Fitter, what criteria was your teacher using for 3rd path?


My teacher, Abre Chen, uses Kenneth Folk's criteria for third path: NS + 5 PL jhanas.

Congrats? I'll raise a drink to you tonight.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 9:19 PM as a reply to Some Guy.
Jason B:
Fitter Stoke:
Fitter Stoke:
How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?


I'm not sure. At least one of them.


Revision: I've been through all 5 PL jhanas. Did it by following this recording. Highly recommended.

I still can't stabilize NS, and I think that's because I can't stabilize the 8th jhana. I pass over the spot associated with it, and there's a definite shift, but then I lose it and have to find it again. I'll eventually figure it out.


That podcast was fantastic. Initially, I felt I was letting them script me through the jhanas because they were pointing out details I hadn't noticed.



Current subject to change 2 cents

The jhanas are fabricated experiences, fashioned by mind. Scripting, whether via reading about or listening along, can trigger the mind to fashion the same or near similar experience. Attempting to master the art of fabrication is a progressive move in my experience and can expose a lot about the fabricating tendencies of one's own mind as a whole, which then can lead to doing something about one's own experience of mental dissatisfaction. Scripting may initially help with this attempt at mastery if one is intent to eventually understand the fabricating tendencies of the mind.

Nick

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 10:45 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Scripting, whether via reading about or listening along, can trigger the mind to fashion the same or near similar experience.


If a mind gets triggered to fashion the same or nearly same experience by either reading or listening about some experience, then that experience can only be useful if the mind can see what has happened. Otherwise, one may keep on deluding oneself. I got myself into AF ASC (universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being) but fortunately could see the fabrication and that helped me get out of it.

One extreme example of scripting is to be found in the third person to have supposedly become "actually free", Vineeto. In Richard's own words "Then, at the moment she became essentially the same as me.....". http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listdcorrespondence/listd26.htm

No one is considered to be "actually free" unless one can script the entire delusion/ASC that has been termed as "Actual Freedom".

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/22/12 11:06 PM as a reply to Change A..
Change A.:
Nikolai .:
Scripting, whether via reading about or listening along, can trigger the mind to fashion the same or near similar experience.


If a mind gets triggered to fashion the same or nearly same experience by either reading or listening about some experience, then that experience can only be useful if the mind can see what has happened. Otherwise, one may keep on deluding oneself. I got myself into AF ASC (universe experiencing itself as a sensate human being) but fortunately could see the fabrication and that helped me get out of it.

One extreme example of scripting is to be found in the third person to have supposedly become "actually free", Vineeto. In Richard's own words "Then, at the moment she became essentially the same as me.....". http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listdcorrespondence/listd26.htm

No one is considered to be "actually free" unless one can script the entire delusion/ASC that has been termed as "Actual Freedom".


Let's keep the he said she said and politics and bad vibes to the actual freedom yahoo listserve, shall we?

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/23/12 8:22 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
The jhanas are fabricated experiences, fashioned by mind. Scripting, whether via reading about or listening along, can trigger the mind to fashion the same or near similar experience. Attempting to master the art of fabrication is a progressive move in my experience and can expose a lot about the fabricating tendencies of one's own mind as a whole, which then can lead to doing something about one's own experience of mental dissatisfaction. Scripting may initially help with this attempt at mastery if one is intent to eventually understand the fabricating tendencies of the mind.


That seems like a pretty good analysis of what happened. I may have hit PL1 or even 2 in the past, but with your leading they were all effortlessly available. This podcast should be number one on itunes. Seriously, thank you Nick. That would have taken me another month or two, and many hours, to figure out on my own.

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/23/12 8:23 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
I'm curious to know where the advanced (above stream-entry) meditators here are in terms of their attainments, current practice, and goals. Answer these questions if you're so inclined:

How many of the technical/MCTB paths have you completed?


By the standards of the Simple Model:

The first understanding is that sensations are sensations, thoughts are thoughts, and this forms the basis of further inquiry. When the universal characteristics of these sensations begin to be seen, this represents growth in understanding. When the whole sense field is known directly and completely as it is, this can cause an entrance into Fruition through one of the Three Doors, and represents the first stage of awakening. - yes.

When one appreciates the cycles of the process of awakening and has completed at least one more new progress cycle, this is the next stage. - yes.

When one begins to appreciate the emptiness, luminosity, centerlessness, agentlessness, etc. of phenomena in real-time and this becomes the focus of practice rather than Fruition, this is the next stage. - yes.

When the sense of the watcher, observer, subject, controller, doer, etc. is seen completely as it is and the knot of perception untangles, that simple, fundamental way of perceiving things is the next stage of awakening. - yes.

When that untangling stays untangled, that is the next stage. - yes.

As that understanding is integrated into our lives, that is the next phase, though it is more an ongoing process than a stage. - yes.

Please note that this model does not map neatly onto the fetters model. Also, see below for the class of sensate phenomena called "emotions".

How many of the 8 standard (4 rupa and 4 arupa) jhanas have you attained?
I get all of them, but I'm a family man, so I don't do Jhana practice as an olympic discipline. Hence, while I can identify the states, and enter them and exit them, I'm nowhere at the level of mastery where they are cast-in-concrete solid, for hours and hours on end.

How many of the 5 Pure Land jhanas have you attained?
I don't know. I've seen other mental states, though, which were stable, and which did not match these descriptions.

Have you attained Nirodha Samāpatti?
Again, I don't know. I've found a way to tickle the mind into going very blank, which felt different from a fruition, but it may have been one of weird jhana-like states that don't match the Pure Land states. I agree with Nikolai on this: there are a lot of ways to configure, combine, mix and match formless states. Getting 4th jhana seems to be a good base for further exploration and experimentation.

Has your progress been evaluated/monitored by a teacher?


No, but by good, critical, and accomplished friends, each an expert in their own way and field of expertise.

If you have completed all four technical/MCTB paths, have you also attained or mastered any territory that you think is “above” those paths? If so, describe in detail.


Leaving it to readers to match my Simple Model claims to the four paths, I'll add this: in my case, cutting through the knot of perception or whatever you want to call ignorance (in the spiritual sense), was just the beginning. There was a recognizable emotional follow-up shift, a "heart release" that followed the "mind release". I don't think this is "above" the paths at all, but the two are definitely closely associated.

My even-simpler simple model/definition of enlightenment goes like this: "Not fooling my self". This includes fooling myself over identity, ownership, self-image, control, certainty, and so on - and it includes both the mental and emotional aspects of these.

Do you have attainments or mastery in traditions other than Buddhism?


I experienced Being Reborn as a Christian, decades ago.

I realized I had no gods, (how do you call the Atheist attainment?), again, decades ago.

A couple of years ago, I "crossed the abyss", which is symbolized by the strange rank of 8=3 in the Western Mystery Tradition.

What does your current practice consist in, and how long have you been at it?
I meditate twice a day, mainly in a "surrender/include/just sit" sort of way, but sometimes doing breath or mantra meditation. I keep a meditation word running whenever I remember to do so during the day. I practice devotion to the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

What are some of your current goals, and when do you think you'll accomplish them?


Not really a goal, more of a strong preference: being a good father, husband, neighbor, co-worker - i.e. living in a way that makes it safe and nice for me and others who are around.

Anything else you’d like to add?


To anyone who reads this, not as a reply to Fitter in particular:

Surrender is a severely underestimated mental posture. Try it!

Taboos are hideouts for (spiritual) ignorance, thus it can be good to examine them closely. For example, there is a lot of truth to the much-maligned and misapplied invitation to "stop seeking". The thing is, who will do the stopping, and how is stopping done without actually doing anything (which would not be stopping since there'd be doing...). If you can use this paradox to smash through "fooling yourself", go for it. Otherwise, there are plenty of tried-and-proven practices with fewer opportunities for fooling yourself, so please give those a good try.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Attainment/Practice Survey
Answer
12/23/12 8:41 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
My teacher, Abre Chen, uses Kenneth Folk's criteria for third path: NS + 5 PL jhanas.

Congrats? I'll raise a drink to you tonight.


I have no idea, but you better imbibe just in case. emoticon