RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

hong ng, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 9:16 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 9:16 AM

back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 11 Join Date: 12/30/12 Recent Posts
Hi all, first off, thanks to those who replied to my first post. I am still in the process of considering the many suggestions - some may take time to implement.

I just came back from a retreat down in Western Australia with Ajahn Brahm. Here are some stuffs that I have observed:

1. I managed to get over the pulsating feeling in the head. Not that it's gone, just that it is milder, plus I am getting used to it, and I just try to ignore it and concentrate on the breath. I have noticed though that the pulsating is probably due to my breathing too fast and hard - a result of my inability to breath naturally, so I just breathed forcefully to make the sensation of the breath obvious and forcing a rhythm so that I can ignore the mechanism of breathing (so as to concentrate on the sensation of breathe). Another thing I noticed was there were notions of "directions" in my breathing. Very difficult to explain. It's like other than "in" and "out", I can feel the breath going left and right, and up on "one side" and down on the other - i keep feeling like there are 2 paths of breathing down my throat rather than just one. Sometimes, I could feel the sensation of my nose to the sides - not in the middle! As if my nose is travelling! I also began to notice chunks of places on my face that feel strange - I used to have this feeling only around the point in between my eyebrows, but now I can feel it on many places on my face - strangest of all, on my left cheek. Like some pressure on the skin. While looking at Fitter Stoke's post, I suddenly have this feeling that my problems are likely to be energy-related (what Pablo and Dan talked about in their posts). From the links in that post, I found Thanissaro's method of meditation and was surprised that there is another way which encourages an expansive attention of the breath and which involves energy-related breaths that is different from the physical breath. This method is very different from Ajahn Brahm's and the Pa-Auk methods which I am familiar with.

2. Despite all the difficulties, I managed to get to calm states - my five senses dulled considerably leaving my mind very clear. unfortunately, I was no longer able to sense the sensation of the breath. I totally didnt know what to do next. Ajahn Brahm's instruction was that at this stage we should really look into the breath mindfully to find the beautiful breath. But I found it difficult to breathe gently so that I dont disrupt the peace. Ajahn Brahm's advice to me was that I need to develop my mindfulness so that I can notice even very subtle sensations. However, it was difficult for me to convey my difficulty in breathing to him. I am pretty sure that if my breathing can occur peacefully, I can notice the breathing well. I also understand that a lot of my problems are also due to my inability to let go, against Ajahn Brahm's constant reminder.

3. Even though I say that my meditation is full of suffering, I must also qualify that at times, I feel like every breath I take creates a thrill down my spine, like listening to a very inspiring song. I am wondering why that happens.

4. Before I went for the retreat, there was a night when I was sleeping, and suddenly I became conscious and could feel a vibration in the upper side of my head (where I suppose the brain is). I intuitively put my attention on this vibration, and it became louder and louder. Suddenly, I felt like I became the breathing. I can't think of another way to describe it. I felt like there was a hook that pulled me into the breathing itself and I became the breathing. It lasted for like a split second. Immediately, I also felt a very pleasant sensation that went down from the top of my head down my body. It feels like the thrill/shiver down the spine I mentioned earlier but immensely more pleasurable. I wonder whether that was just a dream and if not, what actually happened.

Somehow, I do feel that this path is rather elusive (I thought I just have to follow the breath!) and wonder whether it is better to go to a mahasi method instead of trying to generate Jhanas first.
thumbnail
Fitter Stoke, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 9:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 9:45 AM

RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
hong ng:
2. Despite all the difficulties, I managed to get to calm states - my five senses dulled considerably leaving my mind very clear. unfortunately, I was no longer able to sense the sensation of the breath. I totally didnt know what to do next. Ajahn Brahm's instruction was that at this stage we should really look into the breath mindfully to find the beautiful breath. But I found it difficult to breathe gently so that I dont disrupt the peace. Ajahn Brahm's advice to me was that I need to develop my mindfulness so that I can notice even very subtle sensations. However, it was difficult for me to convey my difficulty in breathing to him. I am pretty sure that if my breathing can occur peacefully, I can notice the breathing well. I also understand that a lot of my problems are also due to my inability to let go, against Ajahn Brahm's constant reminder.


Would you mind talking in more detail about what the instruction was like on the retreat (how you were taught to meditate), what problems/effects arose, and what other feedback you may have gotten from Ajahn Brahm?

I'm just curious to know how he runs a retreat.
Nick K, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 10:28 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 10:28 AM

RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 15 Join Date: 1/10/12 Recent Posts
Ajahn Brahm retreat talks here: http://www.youtube.com/user/AjahnBrahmRetreats

Yea the typical advice when breath seems to disappear is due to mindfulness not being strong enough, because its not like you are in 4th jhana yet. I'll note that Thanissaro breath/body energy is his take on the 3rd step of anapansati, experiencing the whole body. You can check out his new meditation guide on dhammatalks.org The thrill down spine I'd term as an aspect of piti (rapture). While the breath is probably the most suitable object for mediation, it is not for everyone, especially concerning those with breathing difficulties. So consider if you have given mindfulness of breathing a fair go, and if you want to try satipatthana vipassana / new Burmese method / Mahasi tradition I'd suggest contact Patrick Kearney since I assume you are located in Au: http://www.dharmasalon.net/home.html
hong ng, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 5:46 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 5:46 PM

RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 11 Join Date: 12/30/12 Recent Posts
Ajahn's Brahm teaching style is "big idea" type - he doesnt go into all the details unless you ask specifically. Some of his basic ideas are considered controversial - for me, after practicing with him for some time, I just find that it is simply a matter of perspective. Some basic instructions that he gave:
1. Samadhi translated as "concentration" is a bad translation. You don't practice to be concentrated, the point is to get calm.
2. There is no need to focus on any part of the body, just have a general sense of the breathing coming in and going out.
3. When the mind gets calm, try to generate the "beautiful breath" which is a pleasurable breath that allows one to follow effortlessly and will lead one to generate nimitta which is the door to the jhanas. So the nimittas are very important, because the 1st jhana is in the centre of the nimitta, the 2nd jhana is in the centre of the 1st jhana ...
4. The nimitta, according to Ajahn Brahm, is basically our mind. This is quite different from other teachers who teach that the nimitta is a mental representation of the breath. He likes talking about near-death experiences where you see a tunnel of light (a nimitta, according to him) when you relinquish your 5 senses and only the mind is left.
5. One way to generate the "beautiful breath", which I had to ask specifically, was to notice more moments of each in and out breath. One tool that can be used is to count 1-2-3-4-5-6 (as many as you need) for each in-breath and each out-breath.
6. The problems we face in life and meditation is due to our inability to let go. His slogan: make peace, be kind, be gentle.

Ajahn Brahm has been a great inspiration for me for the past few years, and he is obviously a great meditator, but he doesnt seem to have experience when it comes to more physiological issues like difficulty with breathing and energy problems.
John Cummings, modified 10 Years ago at 4/15/13 7:33 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/15/13 7:33 PM

RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 2 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
3. When the mind gets calm, try to generate the "beautiful breath" which is a pleasurable breath that allows one to follow effortlessly and will lead one to generate nimitta which is the door to the jhanas. So the nimittas are very important, because the 1st jhana is in the centre of the nimitta, the 2nd jhana is in the centre of the 1st jhana ...
4. The nimitta, according to Ajahn Brahm, is basically our mind. This is quite different from other teachers who teach that the nimitta is a mental representation of the breath. He likes talking about near-death experiences where you see a tunnel of light (a nimitta, according to him) when you relinquish your 5 senses and only the mind is left.

I just got back from a two week Samatha retreat last weekby teachers instructing in the style of Pa Auk Sayadaw, and have been looking around here for other discussions of Nimitta. I am interested in what you have to say about Ajahn Brahm's point of view on this as you noted above. I get the idea that there are two schools of thought on the importance of the visual phenomenon of the Nimitta in all its manifestations. In the Pa Auk tradition, the Nimitta is an essential feature to entering First Jhana. Shaila Catherine's books discribe this as well. There is the intial weak nimitta which is unstable and then over time, as concentration becomes more strong, the nimitta becomes "energized" meaning it is bright brilliant yellow or white color (yellow in my experience). It seems to have a black dot in the center of it. As it becomes more energized, it does not dissolve when looking at it, but rather becomes joined with the breath, so there is then the Anapana Nimitta. This is what Pa Auk wants to see his students accomplish. This is a very distinct unmistakable development, and at that point, the meditator keeps attention on both the breath, and the anapana nimitta. This is a very good sign and becomes the basis for all further work on mastery of the Jhanas. I noticed that prior to this very strong development for some days before, there were some tastes of Piti, Suka and Equanimity, and if not for the above Pa Auk instructions, one might be led to believe they had entered the first four jhanas, and cycled from one to the other, but once the Anapana Nimitta arises and becomes strong, then, entering the First Jhana, all the factors become very much stronger, and makes it apparent that the earlier tastes of the factors was just that, and a mere taste of the strong and pure manifestations of these factors once they really arise. In fourth Jhana it is interesting how all pain ceases as well as awareness of the breath. So while sitting in Fourth Jhana whereas you may have had back pain, that totally ceases, entirely. And then on exitting Fourth Jhana, the pain returns into awareness. Some thing for absorption in Fourth Jhana, as far as being unaware of the breath, but then having the intention to exit, and awareness of the breath returns. Also the Fourth Jhana is kind of a disappointment after leaving Sukha and Piti behind to enter Fourth, though it is obvious why this Imperterbability is far more refined than the prior Jhanas, but nevertheless, it just seems less wonderful than one expected to find, though the afterglow after exitting Jhanas is seemingly life transforming for a while at least in terms of the afterglow of Imperterbability/Equanimity. Also the temporary cessation of the Five Hinderances is very interesting, to get a deeper understanding of the Five Hinderances just by noting how it is with and without Hinderances, just is a great learning experience. Like for example, hunger seems to be almost nonexistent for a while. Anyhow, I have wondered how many commentators on these various Concentration threads seem to possibly be describing phenomena suggesting that they were in Access Concentration rather than Jhana in all its glory. I'll be interested if any of these observations are worth you're commenting on. But the stages of Access, Jhana 1, 2,3,4 are very distinct states, no doubt or speculation when they really arise.
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 4/17/13 6:07 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/17/13 6:07 AM

RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
John Cummings:
In fourth Jhana it is interesting how all pain ceases as well as awareness of the breath. So while sitting in Fourth Jhana whereas you may have had back pain, that totally ceases, entirely. And then on exitting Fourth Jhana, the pain returns into awareness.


The cessation of little body aches and stuff is usually described as starting at access concentration, not so late as 4th jhana. Did the monks say something that contradicts that?

I'd be interesting in hearing you describe your experiences a bit more, as well as the instructions you got.
hong ng, modified 10 Years ago at 5/7/13 3:37 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 5/7/13 3:37 AM

RE: back from retreat: many observations and questions

Posts: 11 Join Date: 12/30/12 Recent Posts
My practice has moved more into Thanissaro's style. Having read Thanissaro and Ajahn Lee, I'm inclined to think that the nimitta is what Ajahn Lee described as the refined breath. Indeed Pa-Auk Sayadaw also mentioned that the nimitta is an aspect of the breath. Clearly, it takes a lot of effort to develop this refined breath and in the Pa-Auk tradition a lot of time is spent developing it. I'm now inclined to believe that the hard jhanas as described in the commentaries and which the Buddha probably learned from his two concentration teachers are not what was taught by the Buddha. These are just my own thoughts at this phase of my practice though.

Breadcrumb