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RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal

My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/17/13 9:33 PM
This was from an email I just sent off to some of my science/meditator/geek friends and I thought I would share it here also. I added just a few more titles to this version:

You know what I think the world needs?

A scientific, peer-reviewed journal in which we could totally meditation geek out instead of having to tip toe around things: a journal that would meet us at the level where things already are rather than, well, how to put it nicely?

Imagine the Visuddhimagga meets Nature, that sort of thing, a place where the terminology and lingo were alright and yet science could proceed and describe things with the technical meditation jargon that people already use in high level practice. Imagine the titles:

"The Effects of Deep 4th Samatha Jhana on Cortisol Levels, CRPs and Sed Rates"

"Electrophysiology of the A&P Event Measured At Last"

"SSRI's and the Dukkha Ñanas: do they help or harm?"

"Panoramic Perspectives of the Higher Paths and Emotional Resilience: how strong is the correlation?"

"ADHD Medications During the A&P: is there an increased risk of manic episodes?"

"Five Techniques for Navigating the Dark Night on Retreat Face Off: a randomized, controlled trial."

"EEG findings in Nirodha Samapatti"

"Candle Flame Kasina Meditation in Epileptics: A Bad Idea?"

"Can Neuroimaging Techniques Distinguish Between Fruitions and Other Unknowing Events?"

"Do Mood Stabilizers Alter Post-Path Cycling?"

"Custom-Tailored Techniques and Teachings Based on the Meyers-Briggs vs Standard Techniques and Teachings: Do They Make Better Progress?"

"Re-Observation-Induced Psychosis Treatment: 4 Modalities Compared"

"REM Sleep and Meditation Stages: The Sleep Lab Moves to a Retreat Center"

"Do Increased Serum Ketones from Skipping Dinner Improve Concentration? A Randomized Controlled Trial"

"Spasmotic Torticollis in Non-Meditators Presenting to a Community Emergency Department: does the A&P follow? A Longitudinal Study."

"The Genetic Basis of Natural Jhanic Ability"

"Does a Family History of Schizophrenia Correlate with Meditative Ability? A Case-Control Study"

"Do OBEs Cause Transient Cognitive Deficits?"

"Hatha Yoga, Tai Chi, and 3rd Ñana: Which Helps it More?"

"The Perception of Physical Pain in the Three Characteristics vs the A&P, A Study of Substance-P and Endorphin Levels"

"Caffeine Intake and The Progress of Insight: Does It Make a Difference?"

"What Percentage of Non-Meditators with Depression can Identify a Clear A&P Event?"

and the follow up study:

"Do Non-Meditators with Depression who can Identify a Spontaneous A&P Event Respond to Vipassana-based Interventions?"

Just dreaming...

Maybe we should start it...

Hope you all are well,

Daniel

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/17/13 10:09 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Yes, I do think it's time for this, to get specific about physiological data about how what we're thinking or what the mind is doing affects and can be tracked in the brain and the body. For example, I am keen to know what is happening in muscle tissue and brain when long sits in jhana result in effortless arising, no limbs asleep; they are somehow fluid and fine.

It would be useful in the short- and long-term to keep a Cochrane review standard in mind.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/17/13 11:07 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
HI Daniel,

I think its a great idea and very much needed. There are a bunch of things that could be done to develop mainstream interest and acceptance of these areas of investigation opening up an area that is probably quite prevalent in many people's everyday experience but either diagnosed as something else (within the limitations of conventional scientific knowledge at the moment) or just lived and suffered with. As a peer reviewed journal, it would assume that someone is actually doing some of this work - so I presume it might lead to aligning or incorporating such work into one or some university faculties' research areas? I know there is some work going on already but not aware of it to the extent your suggested topics indicate. Being a medical doctor you would know alot more about that than I. A great dream to start.....any rich benefactors/philanthropists around?

Regards
Rod

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 5:43 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
It looks like jhana and enlightenment are reduced to "oh look, he can manually alter his blood pressure, what strenuous training he must have had" or "a tiny bit of this advanced practitioners brain is slightly altered from the norm, I guess enlightenment is real". I imagine they would always miss the point, from my perspective, of enlightenment.

The science magazines I have read are awful, in the sense of "blah blah blah genetics blah blah chromosome blah blah validate bourgeoisie life style". Every article as scientific and laboratory tested as it may be only end up serving articles which strengthen social conditioning. Maybe if everybody had an enlightened view then we could have everything, but it is not so.

I think scientific progress is cool no doubt, but i cant imagine it mixing naturally with enlightenment. Surely there comes a point where only a highly enlightened scientist could even conceptually imagine models that may apply.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 8:45 AM as a reply to Joshua, the solitary.
Hi Joshua,

For me, it is not about changing blood pressure tricks (though I had a great EMS teacher who could do that and it was useful during practical tests).

Probably twenty years ago Bill Moyer's "Healing and the Mind" book was printed. It definitely moved me. I love to see today that major institutions are studying mind-body more and more; that it is mainstream now. The study that impressed me the most in Bill Moyer's book was that of patients with metastatic breast cancer doubling their life expectancy with just weekly group therapy, basically talking about their situation together.

So what I like in this idea and attempts happing now are the a) human benefits and also b) removing animals from the lab and inhumane conditions which affect human and animals; I would like to know that in the coming years such companies, like many industries, modernize their product away from abuse of sentient beings in order to stay in business.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 8:38 AM as a reply to katy steger.
I approve of all of this. Haha. I read a lot of scientific papers as per my research. There's a lot out there now about meditation and its health benefits or meditation as a possible therapy for ADHD and others. It would be cool to see it get taken a step further. It's very experiential, true, but with fMRI and other techniques, it shouldn't be that much of a stretch.

Starting a journal isn't impossible, especially nowadays. I remember reading about some guy who couldn't get his work published so he made his own journal. There are tons of internet journals out there, too. Check out PLOS One sometime.

What you'd need, though, is funding (and lots of it) and the ability to hire or recruit credible experts of the field, most likely a mix of meditation practitioners and healthcare professionals.

If this idea really hasn't seen any use by the time I get to medical school and beyond and I suddenly find myself with a lot of money, maybe I can try starting something. emoticon

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 9:00 AM as a reply to Lara D.
Hi Lara,
Good luck with your studies!

What you'd need, though, is funding (and lots of it) and the ability to hire or recruit credible experts of the field, most likely a mix of meditation practitioners and healthcare professionals.
Well, one step at a time. A good idea and good planning precede funding usually. I take long, patient view on this project, but there's certainly an impressive momentum in many religious/methodological traditions to wick up that which is excellent, prosocial, and enjoyable in "the human condition".

I am glad Daniel has put this out there; there's a track-record for practical applicability, fostering a self-policing open-source community and critical transparency, as well as not taking form too seriously (meaning: he can understand, listen and speak practically across various traditions and studies). So, for me, that's a strong ember to start with.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 9:31 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
This kind of project is totally and completely necessary. I just got back from a 3-day Goenka retreat, and on the final day we all got to talking and there was no consensus regarding anything, basically. The mundane mechanics of what happens to the mind phenomenologically during various types of practice was mixed with the mystical and mythological and the obscurantist. I couldn't even get folks to agree that it is at all possible or reasonable to even TRY to define what ANY kind of enlightenment experience might be, what it can be characterized by, etc. I got the guy quoting the Tao Te Ching to me: The Tao which can be named is not the real Tao, etc. Mass confusion all around. I also had the scientist guy stating that the idea of stages of insight is dubious, because, if there were clearly definable and recognizable stages, why aren't there scientific journals writing about them?

The time has come for this project.

Too bad I'm not a scientist, but an English major. Perhaps I could write a haiku on the subject?

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 11:19 AM as a reply to katy steger.
katy steger:
Hi Lara,
Good luck with your studies!

What you'd need, though, is funding (and lots of it) and the ability to hire or recruit credible experts of the field, most likely a mix of meditation practitioners and healthcare professionals.
Well, one step at a time. A good idea and good planning precede funding usually. I take long, patient view on this project, but there's certainly an impressive momentum in many religious/methodological traditions to wick up that which is excellent, prosocial, and enjoyable in "the human condition".

I am glad Daniel has put this out there; there's a track-record for practical applicability, fostering a self-policing open-source community and critical transparency, as well as not taking form too seriously (meaning: he can understand, listen and speak practically across various traditions and studies). So, for me, that's a strong ember to start with.


Right, it all starts with a good proposal. Finding funds and support will be the difficult part. It's a little bit of a chicken-and-egg dilemma. Proposals by folks that are already well established and/or have a good track record are more likely to get funded. But since this is a comparatively new field for scientific inquiry, it'll take comparatively more time and effort to establish legitimacy and to get things set in motion. I do think it's possible, though, given enough time.

I sincerely hope I do see a project like this come to fruition in my lifetime. emoticon

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 11:08 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Imagine that an Arahant with decent knowledge of physic do a lecture to a class of physicists. It's start with very fundamental stuff, maybe some quantum mechanic there, related to non-duality, recall what happen why light meet an object, reflect into the eyes, get processed. etc... en then consciousness!!! He goes on this theme, maybe asking the audience to do simple tricks to see how the mind process only one sensory input at a time, etc etc. He end up showing logically that duality can never be more than an illusion.

He then process to explain that this sense of duality is gone in him and they can achieve the same. Now, they are forced to admits (they are logical people...) that they are living an illusion.

The problem with the Buddhist/Indian philosophy is that it found itself trap in psychology and study of religion. Those ideas belong to science and the target audience for the Dharma is naturally scientifically-minded people. People interested in eliminating bias from their work. And the self is the ultimate bias.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/18/13 11:46 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Exactly how would any of this benefit anybody at all.

Forgive me but I feel very strongly that nearly everyone here has their head up their ass, everyone here is seeking to escape some sort of daily life issue by practicing meditation, which would be better served by actually confronting that issue.

Furthermore I see a lot of interest in states or stages or mapping or mental warpholes, without a solid foundation in anything wholesome.

Without practicing precepts, morality, without the correct perspective, motivation, or whatever, it is not possible that crawling deeper into this rabbit hole of the mind would bring you any benefit whatsoever.

As such my diagnosis of this entire forum is really quite simple:

You have skipped steps, you have taken up advanced practices without first mastering the basics, you have sought to build a house without first laying a foundation.

Mentally labeling or noting various phenomena, while in contracted, scattered, or remorseful, worried, depressed or whatever state, will bring you no happiness.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/19/13 12:23 AM as a reply to James Yen.
James Yen was previously banned from the DhO (a number of times already), but due to some software mechanism on this forum, his handle was automatically unbanned after a couple of months. He has been re-banned again as the original intention of the moderators was to ban him for good.

Edit: And just for data, I was quite anal about and dedicated to upholding the precepts for many, many years. Though not anal anymore, I notice a natural inclination in behaviour that tends not to break them naturally. I just don't talk about it as i think it is a given that those who attend to discernment of the field of experience will see that certain behaviours of their own will lead to an unbalanced, unruly and not so malleable and pliant mind, and those serious about progress will attend to such behaviours in order for the mind to be malleable, pliant and fit for discernment. Wild generalisations on the lack of moral behaviour of everyone here are just that, wild generalizations. Though perhaps they are based on a lack of talking about such things here openly. But it does not mean there aren't yogis here who regulate their behaviour in order to develop such conducive pliant and malleable mind.

Nick (mod)

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/19/13 12:21 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
He has been re-banned again as the original intention of the moderators was to ban him for good.


Thank you.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/19/13 7:59 AM as a reply to Simon T..
Hello Simon T!

The problem with the Buddhist/Indian philosophy is that it found itself trap in psychology and study of religion. Those ideas belong to science and the target audience for the Dharma is naturally scientifically-minded people. People interested in eliminating bias from their work. And the self is the ultimate bias.
Religion and secular studies (like the sciences) are exposed equally to the same operator (human) flaws: power plays, possessiveness, conceit and so forth.

Social study and religion can be excellent frames, too. For example, much study of mind has been preserved through thousands of years due to religious framework and devout/studious persons in the major traditions. Sometimes the higher standard of preserving information without the corrosive of conceit is held by members of religious traditions and sometimes the higher standard is held by those in the secular body -- and many, many people find themselves open to all camps, because simply in acknowledging "not knowing everything" and respecting the variety of ways of study and awe.

The concerns I have for this project are two and they regard form:
1) Conceit in regards to form:
Form can be taken possessively and conceitedly by each party (e.g., the parable of the six blindfolded persons touching different areas of an elephant). I think the antidote is a conviction in sincere respect, the Golden Rule in several traditions. Continually protecting against this natural human trait --- conceit and superiority --- would be key for a credible, motivating investigative journal.

For seeing how research in multiple forms (such as as theistic prayer and buddhist meditation) are being shared openly, one can follow research presented by the Mind and Life Institute each year.

2) Reification of forms:
tai chi, musical training, race-care driving, etc --- many forms are studying a similar personal experience: the mind and body changing as they each become more skilled in a particular practice, approaching what has been called "flow" in a modern secular parlance --- something that often has gradients of ineffability and "beyond my doing" to it.

Both points are helped by the machinery of evolving scientific forms, even if they cannot measure too accurately just what's happening --- just as the Greeks worked with electricity very differently in comparison to our use of what is still a largely unknown phenomena today. In meditation studies, I think it very likely that practitioners from various traditions and practices will have similar MRI results, for example, or similar changes to markers of inflammation. It may be that theistic prayer/faith and jhana are producing a similar anti-inflammatory response and that those with certain fMRI results are really nice people to be around and that their respective forms are not predictors of their prosocial awesomeness.

Anyway, a project like this can have a long, useful life. The last decade of open-source has taught so much about keeping an open mind and working across forms, changing forms.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/19/13 9:10 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
James Yen was previously banned from the DhO (a number of times already), but due to some software mechanism on this forum, his handle was automatically unbanned after a couple of months. He has been re-banned again as the original intention of the moderators was to ban him for good.

That wouldn't have mattered in this case. He just made a new handle. Nothing stops him from making a new handle every few weeks and posting again.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/19/13 10:41 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Nikolai .:
James Yen was previously banned from the DhO (a number of times already), but due to some software mechanism on this forum, his handle was automatically unbanned after a couple of months. He has been re-banned again as the original intention of the moderators was to ban him for good.

That wouldn't have mattered in this case. He just made a new handle. Nothing stops him from making a new handle every few weeks and posting again.


Might I suggest rather than leave JY's posts, which give him the attention he craves (under whatever name he uses, he's easy enough to spot), they are simply removed without explanation? There is no need for any justification. This will undoubtably help keep US from giving him this undue, unhelpful (to him) attention...

Now look, i've derailed the thread further! See what I mean? emoticon

Edited - 'cos i can't write..

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/19/13 10:37 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
Katy:
Yes, I do think it's time for this, to get specific about physiological data about how what we're thinking or what the mind is doing affects and can be tracked in the brain and the body. For example, I am keen to know what is happening in muscle tissue and brain when long sits in jhana result in effortless arising, no limbs asleep; they are somehow fluid and fine.


+1 for that. I'd like to see further what effect the dukkha nanas have on muscle tension and other "pain" factors.

Re funding --i'd take the agile programming path and just get a version out there online with one article in the quickest, cheapest way possible and make it better bit by bit. Else it'll be just another great idea...

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/20/13 4:31 PM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
what about an online community based magazine made up of articles submitted by practitioners. It could start up as a quartily so there would be plenty of time to arrange content and could have a broad scope across the sciences, arts, philosphy, sports, traditons, health, cooking etc anything thats meditation related that people feel inspired to write about.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/20/13 6:32 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I've imagined research, but never a specific journal. That would be cool. But I feel like we need to get our sample size up.

How cool would it be to get some hardcore beginners working with teachers and monitor their progress with fMRI or whatever thru the nanas, jhanas and paths. Kind of a hardcore vipassana project a la Wallace's samatha project.

RE: My Dream of a New Scientific Journal
Answer
2/21/13 7:22 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Howdy,
of course the idea is excellent and there is no time like the present...if that! :-)

many of the posts mention several hurdles right up front (funding etc.) i consider the idea of a science based peer review based journal excellent and long overdue.

funding, experts, boundaries of discussion...these are questions of implementation not of concept. there are MANY MANY MANY experts in various fields just waiting to weigh in on these "border jumping" themes.

one can see the "Nature" model as an admirable goal but one could also imagine many organic steps on that path for example the "open Software" concept where money is not the greatest concern. it is driven forward by passionate (and compassionate) people who are happy to contribute. there are lots of em.

daniels' provocative title suggestions are just a drop in the bucket compared to the possible avenues of interest / research review.

i hereby nominate the following people as the first peer review board:

daniel ingram
amit goswami
willoughby britton