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Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?

By "overcome anxiety", I don't mean permanent deactivation of fight-or-flight response, but rather the ability to fully control one's behavior and act rationally in the midst of intense danger?

Allow me to use a ridiculously over-the-top scenario:

Let's say you have a fear of snakes and public speaking. Could you, after successful meditative practice, deliver a captivating speech to an auditorium holding thousands of people with a python dangling over your head?

Although I assume meditation will eventually help the anxiety system cool down dramatically (am I correct in assuming this), can you have complete freedom within the most intense anxiety?

Thanks.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 11:27 AM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
That's one of the questions I asked in my thread on anxiety and phobias. The truth for me so far is that I am worse than when I started, phobia-wise. I got third path on New Year's Eve. However, I don't mind quite so much as I once did. I say "quite" because there are still times when I do mind a good deal. The problem with insight meditation in particular is that there are stages on the path when a person is more inclined to anxiety because that is precisely what the practice uncovers (which is why I think I'm worse). The more the ego comes under attack, the more it goes on the defensive. People tell me that it's worst after third path, awaiting final release. I am finding that to be the case.

In addition, I'll say that while some people may have succeeded at getting rid of phobias, the conditioning of the mind can be so powerful that the stickiness of phobias defies intervention. I've worked at desensitizing over and over again, and what happens is it gradually gets better, even to the point where I think I'm over it, but then a new exposure can suddenly throw me all the way back to square one, especially after a lapse of a couple of weeks. Maybe after 4th path I'll have a different story. In the meantime, I'd avoid speaking in a packed auditorium with a python dangling over your head.

For the record: I speak in public with no trouble pretty much every day, sometimes to large audiences with little preparation, and have been happy at the reptile exhibit in the Children's Museum wrapping a lovely snake around me and caressing its smooth skin. But stick a stringed instrument in my hand and ask me to play for one 5-year-old and I shake like a leaf. Sitting in the back of the viola section playing an orchestral concert will induce the desire to run out of the room. Thinking about playing an upcoming concert will raise a feeling of malaise for weeks in advance. I'm also terrified of driving on freeways (ordinary roads are mostly fine). I'm waiting a bit to see when and whether it's time to throw in the towel once and for all and own it as my peculiar disability.

Another example: Mohamar Quaddafi, tough guy, could not endure getting on an elevator. I stopped feeling ashamed of myself (well, I started to stop) after hearing that story. It may be apocryphal, but even so, people who seem to have no fear can react strongly to specialized situations.

One final word: at times of intense danger, as for example once when I found myself staring down the barrel of a gun (literally), I have become calm enough to drop all fear and do whatever was needed with total rationality and control, including driving on the hated freeway. The trauma registers after the fact.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 11:38 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that, Jane.

I'd personally opt for surgical damage my amygdala before I'd accept a life full of fear. But before I do something extreme like neurosurgery, I want to give meditation a go.

Is it possible that something in your meditative practice has gone haywire? I say this because almost all the research I've sampled on PubMed seems to support the idea that Meditation helps regulate amygdala activity (of course, to what extent is something I'm trying to find out for myself).

For the record, I neither fear public speaking nor snakes, but I thought my question was best illustrated with an example.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 11:53 AM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Based on my limited experience, and my limited achievements in meditation, I have a couple of thoughts. This is an issue that I have worked with over some time.

As an initial matter, I would try not to rely on meditation to address a specific concern, which may be better handled with behavioral therapy or even a medication. (There is behavior therapy for either of the things you bring up, and there are medications one can take to handle a public speaking engagement). In my humble experience, meditation is much more for the "big picture" issue of dhukka (unsatisfactoriness/suffering) rather than a "fix" for a specific behavior or response someone has in a specific situation.

I had to hear statements like this at least 50+ times before it sunk in. I believe Ingram, among others, have addressed this in their books.

I will try to limit my remaining thoughts to only what might be useful to you. Some people might experience greater anxiety at times, related to meditation. However, meditation might help you de-stress generally, over time.

It might also help you to stop feeling self-blame from thoughts like "I shouldn't be feeling this anxiety" and instead let you just let go of the feeling, once it passes. The anxiety can just be a set of passing, transitory, physical and mental reactions that aren't "you" and you don't need to feel upset over feeling. I like to think of the sutta where the Buddha talks about a man being struck with either one or two darts - sorry I don't have the cite handy.

Best of luck with your practice.

EDIT - after seeing the preceedings two replies, it looks like public speaking isn't your specific concern, Chris. As to your specific question of whether a "successful" mediator can "fully" control fear reactions, I do not know. Some of the research on brain function you might be citing, above, might show a change in some indications of brain function on a scan, but what does that mean in real life, functional terms? etc.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 11:49 AM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
It's not quite as bad as I'm making it sound, at least not most of the time, but then again, I have occasionally wished to have my amygdala excised and be done with it. I'm not really serious about that, though.

I don't think my meditative practice has gone haywire, but I do think that dry vipassana is one of the more challenging approaches a person can take, and that is the approach to which I, like a moth to a flame, have been attracted. It's possible that a greater focus on samatha can take the nerves down a notch or two. But I wanted the big bang for the buck, and went for noting and bare attention. I don't regret it--it's been amazingly successful in terms of progress over a short time--but there are costs along the way. I am thinking now about more of a metta-based practice for the home stretch.

I do not know what to make of all the accolades for meditation as a form of stress relief. I have tentatively concluded that the people who benefit are probably wired differently than I am, so I'm sure some people do benefit. I'm also sure that whatever they're doing, they're not dismantling the illusion of self over a period of months. If they are, it's unlikely that they're feeling comfortable with it all the time. So think carefully about your goals, and about the type of meditation you wish to pursue. And along those lines, how phobias might respond to such an approach would depend entirely on the strength of the lingering effects of trauma in the brain.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 12:06 PM as a reply to Mike H..
Mike Howard:

As an initial matter, I would try not to rely on meditation to address a specific concern, which may be better handled with behavioral therapy or even a medication. (There is behavior therapy for either of the things you bring up, and there are medications one can take to handle a public speaking engagement). In my humble experience, meditation is much more for the "big picture" issue of dhukka (unsatisfactoriness/suffering) rather than a "fix" for a specific behavior or response someone has in a specific situation.


Unfortunately, I'm already trying the behavioral therapy and it's not enough. Meditation is last hope before I take extreme measures.

I've been reading Shinzen's PDFs and watching his videos, and I was under the impression that meditation could be so potent that one could actually exhibit fearless behavior after successful practice (Basically like being on Benzos but without the nasty side effects), but I'm starting to get the sense that this isn't the case. Meditation seems more akin breathing retraining or positive visualization in terms of effectiveness for anxiety.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 12:15 PM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
It is good that you are already working on these other approaches then, even if, unfortunately, they aren't really working at this point. I hope you find some way of addressing these issues. Personally, i have an issue with public speaking and i take a medication before I have such an event, and thankfully that solves most of my acute problems with that.

I think it is ultimately very hard to say what the effectiveness of meditation would be for different peoples' anxieties or fear responses, in different situations. Shinzen Young tends to strike me as a very optimistic teacher, but I really don't have any basis to disagree with him, or dispute him.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 12:32 PM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Chris Dipster:

Unfortunately, I'm already trying the behavioral therapy and it's not enough. Meditation is last hope before I take extreme measures.


Sorry to hear that things are that bad. I'd say without question that my meditation practice has placed distance between me and the stuff I'm afraid of, so there may still be fear manifesting, and I may not like it, but I know now that it is not me. This does really help alleviate suffering, even if the fear is still there. It begins to take on the significance of a big nuisance and a pain in the neck, not a drama. The stress response manifests, but it's like a hangnail or a toothache (depending on intensity). Not that toothache is inconsequential, but it's not as big a drama as an existential crisis.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 2:36 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Chris,

I used to suffer from anxiety. I don't anymore. And I promise you, I had it worse than you. I'm talking panic attacks that lasted for days..endless worrying I had Schizophrenia..etc..And I cured myself. Without drugs. Naturally.

Most of the benefit came from...(this was before I meditated)

1. Exercise
2. Diet.Go Paleo
3. Sleep
4. Try the positivity challenge..also known as the 7 day mental diet.
http://vst.cape.com/~rch/fox.html
5. Relaxation exercises

The above 5 things took me from supremely anxious person to nearly normal, or just your everyday slightly neurotic person. But adding meditation has really calmed me down.

I think the problem that people like Jane run into is that they don't spend enough time doing Shamatha practice. There are people like Alan Wallace who recommend that you reach Shamatha before even beginning insight practice. That if you don't do shamatha, then things won't go as smoothly as they could if you just did insight practice.

I haven't reached shamatha yet, or even close, so I haven't started insight practice, but I highly recommend doing concentration exercises (shamatha). If I do two hours a day, it really does feel like I took a xanax.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/20/13 11:56 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
Chris,

I used to suffer from anxiety. I don't anymore. And I promise you, I had it worse than you. I'm talking panic attacks that lasted for days..endless worrying I had Schizophrenia..etc..And I cured myself. Without drugs. Naturally.

Most of the benefit came from...(this was before I meditated)

1. Exercise
2. Diet.Go Paleo
3. Sleep
4. Try the positivity challenge..also known as the 7 day mental diet.
http://vst.cape.com/~rch/fox.html
5. Relaxation exercises

The above 5 things took me from supremely anxious person to nearly normal, or just your everyday slightly neurotic person. But adding meditation has really calmed me down.

I think the problem that people like Jane run into is that they don't spend enough time doing Shamatha practice. There are people like Alan Wallace who recommend that you reach Shamatha before even beginning insight practice. That if you don't do shamatha, then things won't go as smoothly as they could if you just did insight practice.

I haven't reached shamatha yet, or even close, so I haven't started insight practice, but I highly recommend doing concentration exercises (shamatha). If I do two hours a day, it really does feel like I took a xanax.


I don't want the cure to include anything other than my own mental fortitude. I currently lift weights and get a sufficient amount of sleep, but I want to reach the state where even if I could no longer exercise nor experience deep sleep that I wouldn't be compromised by anxiety.

Changing diets and using relaxation techniques are dicey propositions. I recognize they worked for you, but I want to be able to ingest as many stimulants, carbs, etc. as I desire and put myself in continuously high stress environments without succumbing to anxiety.

I am of the mind that if one can in principle be cured of anxiety afflictions through meditation alone then I'll either do it or will die trying. Anxiety and anxiety alone is the sole focus of my life. I use to read a wide variety of literature and have indulge in many interests. Now, I spend nearly every waking hour thinking about anxiety and how I can cure myself of it and it's been that way for over a year. So now I'm finally going to put my obsessive thoughts and my attention to detail to good use.

Meditation is a delicate technique to begin with, but my guess is that the difference between people that greatly improve and people that completely improve is probably so subtle that I'll need to be attuned to every minute detail.

The trick is going to be remaining focused and motivated when I'm let's say 80% improved. Thankfully I'm an extreme perfectionist and harsh critic. It'll be tempting to forget about the remaining 20%, but I definitely have concrete goals as a way to measure how far along I am. If any goal remains unchecked then I know that I can't rest just yet.

Another thing working for me is that my meditation will revolve around anxiety and nothing else. If any component of my meditative exercises addresses something other than anxiety then I will either alter it or throw it away.

If I succeed and totally conquer anxiety, I'll be sure to let everyone here know and exactly how I did it.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 9:40 AM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Chris,

I don't want the cure to include anything other than my own mental fortitude. I currently lift weights and get a sufficient amount of sleep, but I want to reach the state where even if I could no longer exercise nor experience deep sleep that I wouldn't be compromised by anxiety.

Changing diets and using relaxation techniques are dicey propositions. I recognize they worked for you, but I want to be able to ingest as many stimulants, carbs, etc. as I desire and put myself in continuously high stress environments without succumbing to anxiety.



You think if I eat a slice of pizza now I will freak out and start having anxiety? Haha, of course not. It doesn't work like that.I can go into high stress environments, public speeches, dates, job interviews, etc and not feel anxiety because my body no longer produces the stress response to anywhere near the level it once did.

The reason you feel anxiety is because your body and brain are out of working order. Your amygdala is overactive, you produce too many stress hormones and your body is in a mild state of flight or fight response nearly all the time. I'm sure you know this.

Imagine being obese and trying to lose weight. You should do everything you can to lose weight. Diet, exercise, sleep, everything. And once you lose weight and get in shape, you can eat slice of pizza here and there and you are not suddenly become fat overnight. You can miss a week of working out and you aren't suddenly going to lose all that muscle you built instantly. Your body is now in good working order, you are in good shape and it is not going to suddenly fall to pieces just because you missed a couple of workouts or ate some cake.

And once you do everything you can to quell your body's stress response you are not suddenly going to freak out if you miss working out for a week or drink a cup of coffee. Why? Because your body and brain are in good working order, in good enough shape to withstand high pressure situations, stimulants, etc.. and not go haywire.

It is not like I still spend 30 minutes a day doing relaxation exercises. I don't need to do them anymore. I still eat very healthy, workout a few times a week, etc. But I do that not because I need to because of anxiety, but because I like it, it makes me feel good, I am in fantastic shape, I am incredibly healthy and I want to live to 120.

I am of the mind that if one can in principle be cured of anxiety afflictions through meditation alone then I'll either do it or will die trying. Anxiety and anxiety alone is the sole focus of my life. I use to read a wide variety of literature and have indulge in many interests. Now, I spend nearly every waking hour thinking about anxiety and how I can cure myself of it and it's been that way for over a year. So now I'm finally going to put my obsessive thoughts and my attention to detail to good use.



The prognosis for people with anxiety is good. It is one of the most treatable mental afflictions out there. Millions of people have suffered from anxiety and millions of people have got ridden of it. There is formula for how to do it. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. There are millions of people who have done it and we know how to do it. Just do what they did. That's what I did and it worked.

The main book I read that really saved me was The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook. I bought that book. Followed the directions to a T, and Voila! Anxiety went away.

Meditation is included in the program by the way,

I have given that book to a half dozen people who suffered from anxiety and all of them were helped tremendously by the book to the point where they no longer get anxiety at any rate different than normal people.

The only people who don't get they anxiety handled are the people who don't follow the prescription. The people who think "Oh that may have worked for you, but it won't work for me! I'm special, I am somehow different than every other human out there. My body is an anomaly". Those are the people who never get fixed.


I am of the mind that if one can in principle be cured of anxiety afflictions through meditation alone then I'll either do it or will die trying.


This is like saying "If in principle I can build a car using only a screwdriver and a screwdriver alone than I'll either do it or will die trying." Why limit yourself to only one tool in the toolbox?

Not even the Buddha would say you should only use meditation to cure anxiety and nothing else. Have you heard about the whole Noble eightfold path? There is a whole lot of stuff in there besides meditation. The majority of it, actually. Most of it to do with how you live your normal every day life in a way that won't produce stress.

The trick is going to be remaining focused and motivated when I'm let's say 80% improved. Thankfully I'm an extreme perfectionist and harsh critic. It'll be tempting to forget about the remaining 20%, but I definitely have concrete goals as a way to measure how far along I am. If any goal remains unchecked then I know that I can't rest just yet


Ironically, the key to success in meditation, and what meditation primarily is, is just learning how to REST. It is focused relaxation, at least the shamatha path.

Another thing working for me is that my meditation will revolve around anxiety and nothing else. If any component of my meditative exercises addresses something other than anxiety then I will either alter it or throw it away.

If I succeed and totally conquer anxiety, I'll be sure to let everyone here know and exactly how I did it.


You don't see it now, but this kind of attitude is the product of anxiety. Just relax. You think anxiety is this huge unstoppable demon that you need to figure out a new way of beating and if you do you will tell the world!

But it's not. Anxiety is easy to beat. Although trust me, I understand from your perspective how crazy that sounds..I was once there. But really it is. All you have to do is follow the directions. Get the anxiety and phobia workbook, and follow the directions.

1. Eat healthy..Paleo..recommended
2. Exercise
3. Sleep
4. Practice cognitive-behavioral-therapy... a fancy term for replacing negative thought patterns with more positive, rational ones
5.Do 30 minutes of relaxation exercises a day. I recommend muscle relaxation.
6. Meditate.

It won't happen overnight. It takes time. Just like a fat person won't become skinny overnight. It takes time. Your brain needs to re-wire itself.

Good luck man.

Feel free to hit me up with any questions.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 10:35 AM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
Chris,

I don't want the cure to include anything other than my own mental fortitude. I currently lift weights and get a sufficient amount of sleep, but I want to reach the state where even if I could no longer exercise nor experience deep sleep that I wouldn't be compromised by anxiety.

Changing diets and using relaxation techniques are dicey propositions. I recognize they worked for you, but I want to be able to ingest as many stimulants, carbs, etc. as I desire and put myself in continuously high stress environments without succumbing to anxiety.



You think if I eat a slice of pizza now I will freak out and start having anxiety? Haha, of course not. It doesn't work like that.I can go into high stress environments, public speeches, dates, job interviews, etc and not feel anxiety because my body no longer produces the stress response to anywhere near the level it once did.

The reason you feel anxiety is because your body and brain are out of working order. Your amygdala is overactive, you produce too many stress hormones and your body is in a mild state of flight or fight response nearly all the time. I'm sure you know this.

Imagine being obese and trying to lose weight. You should do everything you can to lose weight. Diet, exercise, sleep, everything. And once you lose weight and get in shape, you can eat slice of pizza here and there and you are not suddenly become fat overnight. You can miss a week of working out and you aren't suddenly going to lose all that muscle you built instantly. Your body is now in good working order, you are in good shape and it is not going to suddenly fall to pieces just because you missed a couple of workouts or ate some cake.

And once you do everything you can to quell your body's stress response you are not suddenly going to freak out if you miss working out for a week or drink a cup of coffee. Why? Because your body and brain are in good working order, in good enough shape to withstand high pressure situations, stimulants, etc.. and not go haywire.

It is not like I still spend 30 minutes a day doing relaxation exercises. I don't need to do them anymore. I still eat very healthy, workout a few times a week, etc. But I do that not because I need to because of anxiety, but because I like it, it makes me feel good, I am in fantastic shape, I am incredibly healthy and I want to live to 120.

I am of the mind that if one can in principle be cured of anxiety afflictions through meditation alone then I'll either do it or will die trying. Anxiety and anxiety alone is the sole focus of my life. I use to read a wide variety of literature and have indulge in many interests. Now, I spend nearly every waking hour thinking about anxiety and how I can cure myself of it and it's been that way for over a year. So now I'm finally going to put my obsessive thoughts and my attention to detail to good use.



The prognosis for people with anxiety is good. It is one of the most treatable mental afflictions out there. Millions of people have suffered from anxiety and millions of people have got ridden of it. There is formula for how to do it. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. There are millions of people who have done it and we know how to do it. Just do what they did. That's what I did and it worked.

The main book I read that really saved me was The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook. I bought that book. Followed the directions to a T, and Voila! Anxiety went away.

Meditation is included in the program by the way,

I have given that book to a half dozen people who suffered from anxiety and all of them were helped tremendously by the book to the point where they no longer get anxiety at any rate different than normal people.

The only people who don't get they anxiety handled are the people who don't follow the prescription. The people who think "Oh that may have worked for you, but it won't work for me! I'm special, I am somehow different than every other human out there. My body is an anomaly". Those are the people who never get fixed.


I am of the mind that if one can in principle be cured of anxiety afflictions through meditation alone then I'll either do it or will die trying.


This is like saying "If in principle I can build a car using only a screwdriver and a screwdriver alone than I'll either do it or will die trying." Why limit yourself to only one tool in the toolbox?

Not even the Buddha would say you should only use meditation to cure anxiety and nothing else. Have you heard about the whole Noble eightfold path? There is a whole lot of stuff in there besides meditation. The majority of it, actually. Most of it to do with how you live your normal every day life in a way that won't produce stress.

The trick is going to be remaining focused and motivated when I'm let's say 80% improved. Thankfully I'm an extreme perfectionist and harsh critic. It'll be tempting to forget about the remaining 20%, but I definitely have concrete goals as a way to measure how far along I am. If any goal remains unchecked then I know that I can't rest just yet


Ironically, the key to success in meditation, and what meditation primarily is, is just learning how to REST. It is focused relaxation, at least the shamatha path.

Another thing working for me is that my meditation will revolve around anxiety and nothing else. If any component of my meditative exercises addresses something other than anxiety then I will either alter it or throw it away.

If I succeed and totally conquer anxiety, I'll be sure to let everyone here know and exactly how I did it.


You don't see it now, but this kind of attitude is the product of anxiety. Just relax. You think anxiety is this huge unstoppable demon that you need to figure out a new way of beating and if you do you will tell the world!

But it's not. Anxiety is easy to beat. Although trust me, I understand from your perspective how crazy that sounds..I was once there. But really it is. All you have to do is follow the directions. Get the anxiety and phobia workbook, and follow the directions.

1. Eat healthy..Paleo..recommended
2. Exercise
3. Sleep
4. Practice cognitive-behavioral-therapy... a fancy term for replacing negative thought patterns with more positive, rational ones
5.Do 30 minutes of relaxation exercises a day. I recommend muscle relaxation.
6. Meditate.

It won't happen overnight. It takes time. Just like a fat person won't become skinny overnight. It takes time. Your brain needs to re-wire itself.

Good luck man.

Feel free to hit me up with any questions.


I've read The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook (5th Edition) and just about every textbook on CBT/Mindfully-based Cognitive Therapy (Internet piracy is a wonderful thing) that I could get my hands on.

How they define "cure" is not how I define it. So their formula means bubkes to me.

These books are a recipe for mediocrity. I'm looking to be exceptional.

Looking at Meditation as if it is just one tool in the toolbox is the wrong analogy. Relaxation Techniques, dietary adjustments, breathing retraining are contraindicated in many anxiety afflictions because they can easily become safety behaviors and forms of avoidance (e.g., breathing retraining to avoid fight-or-flight symptoms). Safety behaviors and avoidance are fuel for anxiety -- that's cognitive-behavioral therapy 101.

I've already experienced with this for myself. I once used Magnesium supplements and noticed a decline in my anxiety. I stopped using them for that very reason. I know that sounds stupid, but that's how serious I am about my goals.

If I was content for any amount of improvement then I'll just pump myself up with Benzos and become an obese, lethargic dullard pushing paper at a dead end job. But I assure you that's not going to happen. I'd never accept that fate.

Many psychologists, psychotherapists and mental health professionals figure that whatever it takes to get to get clients functional is sufficient. They don't care if they're laying out roadblocks to keep you from being exceptional. I don't begrudge people that are perfectly content with scenario, but that's simply not good enough for me.

People that achieve at high level don't usually worry about eating like a caveman, performing PMR or avoiding stressful situations. Unlike psychologists, I study successful people that achieve great things.

The biggest difference between the Woody Allen-type and a World Leader isn't solely their anxiety system (which I do think would improve with meditation anyway), but the difference in tolerance for uncertainty, fight-or-flight, pressure and discomfort. Don't get me wrong, I love Woody Allen as much as the next guy, but I'd prefer to act more like a president than a pitiful schmuck.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 11:37 AM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Chris,

From where I sit (and indeed it isn't really my business), you are speaking shockingly impolite to Jinxed P. Jinx'ed recovery from anxiety sounds anything but mediocre. On the contrary it sounds like he gave anxiety a back alley beatdown. I genuinely hope you find the miraculous cure you are describing. But it sure sounds like you are spoiling for a philosophical fight rather than addressing a burdensome case of anxiety.

aac

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 12:18 PM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
How they define "cure" is not how I define it. So their formula means bubkes to me.

These books are a recipe for mediocrity. I'm looking to be exceptional.


AKA..you never followed their advice, and are still anxious..and still searching for a cure..hmm...I wonder why?

I'm sorry for the tough love, but you are Exhibit A of a person who never gets cured and remains anxious..because for some strange reason they come up with excuses of why what works for everyone else won't work for them.

Listen, I understand where you are coming from. But you have to learn how to walk before you can run. To become exceptional you have to be normal first. Michael Jordan didn't just walk out on to a basketball court and start doing 360 dunks. He learned to shoot a lay up first.

I don't ever want to feel the slightest tint of stress or worry again either. But to get there I am going to do everything possible (not just meditate). I also know that I couldn't meditate when I was really anxious (meditation actually made it worse), and that to be able to meditate I had to calm my anxiety down. There is also a reason why monks live in monasteries, take vows of celibacy, shave their heads, wear robes all that stuff. It's because they want to reduce every possible source of stress in their life so as to be able to meditate more effectively. No one 'just' meditates. If they did they wouldn't get very far. Even in Ingram's MTCB what is the very first training? Morality. I.E ..living your life in such a way as to reduce worry and stress. Then comes meditation. Otherwise meditation will simply not be very effective, unless you get all that other stuff handled.



Looking at Meditation as if it is just one tool in the toolbox is the wrong analogy. Relaxation Techniques, dietary adjustments, breathing retraining are contraindicated in many anxiety afflictions because they can easily become safety behaviors and forms of avoidance (e.g., breathing retraining to avoid fight-or-flight symptoms). Safety behaviors and avoidance are fuel for anxiety -- that's cognitive-behavioral therapy 10


And is meditation your new safety behavior and form of avoidance? emoticon Why you think meditation is somehow different in this respect I don't know...but your fears are unfounded anyway..

You are looking at relaxation techniques the wrong way. You are looking at them as a crutch for when you feel anxious in a particular moment. I think they are good in that they can calm you down for those moments, but I recommend them for a different reason. You have to re-wire your brain to become calm as a BASELINE. That is what you want. The way to do this is become calm more often, its like an upward spiral. You do this by doing relaxation techniques, not just for feeling more calm in that particular moment, but because by doing relaxation techniques you are re-wiring your brain to feel calm. And the more calm you feel the more the 'calm' part of your brain gets exercised and the stronger it becomes. Eventually calm becomes the 'norm' and you no longer need to do the relaxation exercises.


Many psychologists, psychotherapists and mental health professionals figure that whatever it takes to get to get clients functional is sufficient. They don't care if they're laying out roadblocks to keep you from being exceptional. I don't begrudge people that are perfectly content with scenario, but that's simply not good enough for me.


Haha..a healthy diet does not become a 'roadblock' to being exceptional. Think about that for a second...when in the history of the world has the following conversation ever took place?

"Man, that guy Joe could have been great. But the poor fellow wouldn't stop eating his grass fed beef and vegetables."

Haha. Never. Never has that been said.

It's like riding a bike. First you learn with training wheels. Eventually you get to a point where you can throw the training wheels a way.

You want to go from A to Z, but skip all the steps in between. But it just doesn't work like that. It's a recipe for failure.


People that achieve at high level don't usually worry about eating like a caveman, performing PMR or avoiding stressful situations. Unlike psychologists, I study successful people that achieve great things.


I'm not quite sure what your idea of success is..but it is probably very different from the people on this board. Your definition of success seems to be something along the lines of wealth/fame/high status all the things Buddhists would tell your are false idols. And as Malcolm Gladwell would say, those people who do achieve 'great' things are usually driven by a deep seated insecurity. The farther you go along the buddhist path the more you will realize this is true. Your desire to be 'great' to be 'exceptional' in the sense you are using it is nothing but the symptom of some insecurity.

Most people here would say that success is extreme mental health 'freedom from suffering' , and endowed with positive mental states, love, compassion, kindness, and that someone like Donald Trump who if you follow his twitter is obviously a fairly miserable person is not successful, but a failure.

But I think you would be wrong if you said that 'successful' people don't think a healthy lifestyle contributes to their success. But don't take my word for it. Take Richard Branson's.

Richard Branson on exercise

President Obama works out for an hour every single morning.



The biggest difference between the Woody Allen-type and a World Leader isn't solely their anxiety system (which I do think would improve with meditation anyway), but the difference in tolerance for uncertainty, fight-or-flight, pressure and discomfort. Don't get me wrong, I love Woody Allen as much as the next guy, but I'd prefer to act more like a president than a pitiful schmuck.


I agree. But you can't go for a pitiful schmuck to a world leader without becoming 'normal' first.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 1:10 PM as a reply to anti anti camper.
All of this is very instructive. I am inclined to make a confession, which is that a part of me does seem to think that what works for other people won't work for me. I am a true drama queen, I think I'm special, and that my suffering is much greater than anyone else's, my brain chemistry far more complex than regular folks' and thus I take refuge in the knowledge that no one has ever been as sensitive as I. emoticon Which, when I put it this way, sounds so ridiculous that all I can do is laugh. So I will revisit that workbook and get motivated to take on some of the interventions I've been ignoring. Thanks, Jinxed P!

However, there's one clarification: I think anxiety in general is not completely the same as dealing with a phobia. My experience with phobias is that they are extremely sticky. Jinxed P may not have had entrenched phobias (I don't know), or if he did, these methods might have helped him but may not do the same for everyone (even the followup to that workbook admits this). So then the trick is to avoid letting phobias grow into something that dominates a person's life. My meditation practice has in fact stopped them from doing that, plus I'm reserving judgment on whether said phobias might disappear altogether at a later point in my practice. They just haven't done so yet.

Jinxed P is correct in recommending samatha. I'd add metta to the list. I might even do some metta practice aimed at my sweet little lizard brain, which is only trying to protect me. I can see wanting to cut it out (surgically), but that is not a particularly loving thing to do. I prefer to have compassion on the little darling, even if it irritates me at times.

The one thing I'll say to Chris is that being human means learning to live with imperfection and vulnerability, even after attaining what we folks here call awakening. People who think they can crash through that ceiling are kidding themselves. Perfectionism is not a guiding principle for this practice, but a phenomenon in oneself (and others) to be investigated with compassion and an open mind. I truly sympathize with Chris, however, having many times wished I could be a deva in a new incarnation and live with complete ease. What I aim for instead are the Four Divine Abidings: Loving-kindness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. We can't arrive at any of those places without truthfully touching our own pain, over and over again, and owning it, loving it, loving ourselves with it, recognizing it and loving it deeply in others, and ultimately resting in the faith that This Is It, It has always been It, and will always be It. All of my best wishes to all of you for your most authentic and profound happiness, and may you awaken in this lifetime.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 1:24 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Let's say you're afraid of heights and your task is to climb Mount Everest.

If you avoid the task (the most basic type of safety behavior) then obviously you won't get off the ground.

If you take medication you could probably work up the courage to start climbing, but combined with the nasty side effects of the drugs and the lack of cognitive restructuring, you probably wouldn't get very far.

Let's say you do a radical lifestyle change by making all the right dietary choices, maintaining a regular practice of relaxation techniques, visualizing your self on the beach, having your quinoa and beans in your knapsack, listening to enya's voice sing over the roaring sound of a waterfall, etc. you'd probably get somewhat further, but it takes an entire constellation of external factors to coincide. What happens when the high levels of CO2 starts to kick in at higher altitudes? If you couple that with the same irrational fear of heights, suddenly your body--despite all the elaborate precautions--still tailspins into a full blown panic attack. I doubt you'll reach the top.

If you find a way to be totally unburdened by physical sensations (i.e., successful meditative practice), you can optimally perform under intense conditions. This is the only possibility of reaching the top. It wouldn't matter if you downed four cups of coffee, ate a twinkie and found out that you were just terminated from your job before you left.

The people capable of enduring immense stress in extraneous circumstances achieve great things. People that need the stars to align in order to function do not achieve great things. That's just a fact.

I probably am chasing false idols or whatever you want to call it, and I'm probably the poster child for the westerner that wants enlightenment as a means for unenlightened ends, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm going to be as diligent as possible. And I don't care if my meditation leads to anything other than the freedom of anxiety. I don't expect to be improved in any other way.

If I conquered anxiety, then I'd definitely consider using Magnesium and maybe some other supplements if I thought that it could regulate my anxiety system. Otherwise, it will be an impediment.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 1:36 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Jane Laurel Carrington:


The one thing I'll say to Chris is that being human means learning to live with imperfection and vulnerability, even after attaining what we folks here call awakening. People who think they can crash through that ceiling are kidding themselves. Perfectionism is not a guiding principle for this practice, but a phenomenon in oneself (and others) to be investigated with compassion and an open mind. I truly sympathize with Chris, however, having many times wished I could be a deva in a new incarnation and live with complete ease. What I aim for instead are the Four Divine Abidings: Loving-kindness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. We can't arrive at any of those places without truthfully touching our own pain, over and over again, and owning it, loving it, loving ourselves with it, recognizing it and loving it deeply in others, and ultimately resting in the faith that This Is It, It has always been It, and will always be It. All of my best wishes to all of you for your most authentic and profound happiness, and may you awaken in this lifetime.


I'm sorry to hear you couldn't "crash through the ceiling". But your past experiences don't dictate my possibilities (And I'm not convinced that you couldn't vastly improve either). If I followed your thinking, I'd say it's impossible to make the NFL. No matter how much time and effort I spent practicing and how many steroids I used, I would never be fast enough to play on that level. Obviously since people do play in the NFL, my limitations are not universal.

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 1:59 PM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Chris Dipster:

I'm sorry to hear you couldn't "crash through the ceiling". But your past experiences don't dictate my possibilities (And I'm not convinced that you couldn't vastly improve either). If I followed your thinking, I'd say it's impossible to make the NFL. No matter how much time and effort I spent practicing and how many steroids I used, I would never be fast enough to play on that level. Obviously since people do play in the NFL, my limitations are not universal.


I fully understand why you would want that. I also acknowledge that you and I obviously want different things. I sincerely hope that you find what you are looking for.

Laurel

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 2:24 PM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Chris Dipster:
Let's say you're afraid of heights and your task is to climb Mount Everest.

If you avoid the task (the most basic type of safety behavior) then obviously you won't get off the ground.

If you take medication you could probably work up the courage to start climbing, but combined with the nasty side effects of the drugs and the lack of cognitive restructuring, you probably wouldn't get very far.

Let's say you do a radical lifestyle change by making all the right dietary choices, maintaining a regular practice of relaxation techniques, visualizing your self on the beach, having your quinoa and beans in your knapsack, listening to enya's voice sing over the roaring sound of a waterfall, etc. you'd probably get somewhat further, but it takes an entire constellation of external factors to coincide. What happens when the high levels of CO2 starts to kick in at higher altitudes? If you couple that with the same irrational fear of heights, suddenly your body--despite all the elaborate precautions--still tailspins into a full blown panic attack. I doubt you'll reach the top.

If you find a way to be totally unburdened by physical sensations (i.e., successful meditative practice), you can optimally perform under intense conditions. This is the only possibility of reaching the top. It wouldn't matter if you downed four cups of coffee, ate a twinkie and found out that you were just terminated from your job before you left.

The people capable of enduring immense stress in extraneous circumstances achieve great things. People that need the stars to align in order to function do not achieve great things. That's just a fact.
.



Chris,

two things.

1)I think you may have an unrealistic expectation of where enlightenment will get you. For instance, the Dalai Lama with all his meditative accomplishment (hours upon hours a day since he was four years old) still got scared when he first started flying in airplanes.

2)You have a false assumption that relaxation techniques, good diet..etc.. are crutches.

They aren't.

They are ways of changing the functioning of your brain so that it doesn't produce the stress response. Of PERMANENTLY changing the way your neurons function. What would happen if you 'imaginary scenario' is that the person would do relaxation techniques, eat healthy ( I don't eat quinoa or beans..more like a nice steak and a sweet potato), coupled with climbing smaller mountains first. Then what would happen at the higher altitudes of everest? They wouldn't freak out. Why? Because their body doesn't produce the flight or fight response. It's baseline level is one of calm, not of stress.

Another analogy:

Let's say Lance Armstrong has just been diagnosed with cancer..

Doctor: Lance you need to do chemotherapy
Lance: But I want to win the Tour De France!
Doctor: You can win the Tour De France, but you have to get rid of your cancer first.
Lance: But Jan Ullrich won the Tour De France and he didn't have do chemotherapy!!
Doctor: But Lance, Jan Ullrich doesn't have cancer. He doesn't need to do chemotherapy. You have cancer. You need to get rid of cancer. Once you do, you don't have to do chemotherapy anymore.

And the analogy to our conversation..

Jinxed: Chris you should eat healthy, do relaxation techniques
Chris: But I want to be a world leader!
Jinxed: You can be a world leader, but you have to get rid of your anxiety disorder first.
Chris: But Obama is a world leader and he doesn't have to eat paleo and do relaxation techniques!
Jinxed: But Chris, Barack Obama doesn't have an anxiety disorder. He doesn't need to do those things. You have an anxiety disorder. You need to get rid of it. Once you do, you don't have to do relaxation techniques anymore or eat healthy.


Anxiety is an illness just like any other. Relaxation techniques, eating healthy, sleep, exercise are the treatments. They are ways of changing the functioning of your brain and hormonal system to one of a baseline calm.

Once you are cured of your anxiety, you no longer have to use those treatments. Just like if you take antiobiotics for an infection, once the infection is gone you can stop taking antibiotics.

Myself, numerous people I know and millions of others around the world are walking proof that what I'm saying is true. I had an anxiety disorder, and I needed to do relaxation techniques, exercise, eat healthy etc... to get rid of it. But once I got rid of it, I no longer have an anxiety disorder. I don't need to do muscle relaxation before a job interview. The stars don't have to be aligned. I can get three hours of sleep the night before an 8am interview, go on an empty stomach and still not freak out about it. Why? Because I don't have an anxiety disorder anymore!

Your assumption that relaxation techniques, eating a healthy diet etc, are just crutches/band-aids is simply false. They are ways of curing the underlying disorder and once it's gone..you don't need to do those things anymore..

I don't know how to put it anymore bluntly.


Get it?

RE: Can meditation help someone overcome anxiety?
Answer
3/21/13 2:32 PM as a reply to Chris Dipster.
Be suspicious of listening to yourself. You got where you are listening to yourself. Is the advice you give yourself go through the same scrutiny as others? Why or why not?

I used to think I could use my broken consciousness to fix my broken consciousness and I of course never questioned it because I was using my broken consciousness to avoid investigating it.
The more I investigate the patterns I engage in, the more I realize the effort it takes to be aware of the patterns and willingness to change them.
Good luck
~D