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No-Self mode + Self mode = Interpreter mode

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EDIT://2.1.14/ edited name of topic to one I see most fit right now
EDIT://19.6.14/ edited name of topic to one I see even better fit right now

From some time I explore full non dual perception where centers of thinking and decisions are dispersed. When in it hands writing this on keyboard seem like doing it by itself, with distinct feel of it like it was doing what other centers of brain was telling it to do and I was all those centers at once

I can also enter dual perception and move hands myself and it have distinct feel to it also, maybe little forced at times. I feel whole in this perception, like whole being and my will and execution of it were the same force. There is also distinct feel to it.

When I mix those two by trying to experience it both at the same time something strange happens.
Mixing no-self with self will make self appear in everything so hand moves by itself but also feels like I move it in background.
When I do other way around then it looks similar but like I was accepting orders of those centers of brain and then doing it.

When both perceptions are to be equal then nothingness filled with bliss arises, like system overload, hands stop, bliss excels all orders and movement, hands disappear, self disappear, pure bliss of nothingness abides and both natures of me feel it at the same time, are lost in it. I can do this at real time writing this and it doesn't even matter that I have headache from hangover

What is this state called?

And why so much attention on removing all traces of self from everything if there is so much ecstatic bliss to get from accepting self as equal partner to no-self so both can disappear and/or fill each other?

From this perspective permanently changing Self to no-Self looks like only changing apples for oranges...:

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/30/13 12:27 AM as a reply to Paweł K.
Not sure about that experience. But I agree that self and no-self are both problematic if we take them literally.

Just because we construct the self out of interdependent linkages between phenomenon doesn't mean that it isn't there.

There is no need to suppress the self. Just penetrate through illusions of it as something having a true essence.

To see the way the world and the self are constructed interdependently is enough, to dispel ignorance and stop suffering.

The self that disappears through insight is in my opinion just the aspects of grasping our brain has associated together as 'self'.

If think about it, there has never been a self to disappear or a no-self to appear.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/30/13 11:31 PM as a reply to Paweł K.
Paweł K:

And why so much attention on removing all traces of self from everything if there is so much ecstatic bliss to get from accepting self as equal partner to no-self so both can disappear and/or fill each other?

Sounds like you haven't learned much from your insight meditation if what you perceive is a preference for "ecstatic bliss." This cannot be nibbana, can it. Keep pondering and examining the root of your experience. Sooner or later it will dawn on you.

Paweł K:

From this perspective permanently changing Self to no-Self looks like only changing apples for oranges...

It shouldn't. If it's done without self knowledge, then, maybe so – maybe it gives the illusion of "changing apples for oranges." And you are accepting that view as your reality.

If done with self realization (gnosis), it should be just the realization that there is no self in phenomena. Your life, as it was, still continues. You still have responsibilities, obligations and what not. It's just that now you know (have become aware) what you are doing each and every moment rather than experiencing everything as though in a dream over which you have little control.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/31/13 8:55 AM as a reply to Paweł K.
At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects

call it True Self

call it no-self

regardless, it is happening, as it always has

and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been

and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems

and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either

but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before

and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes

though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur

and this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing

so look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are

and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception

spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception

but with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated

such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/31/13 10:24 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects

regardless, it is happening, as it always has

and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been


and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems

and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either

but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before

and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes

though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur


and this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing

so look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them
, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are

and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception

spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception

but with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated

such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish

Well said. There's nothing to add to that.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/1/14 7:23 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
Sounds like you haven't learned much from your insight meditation if what you perceive is a preference for "ecstatic bliss." This cannot be nibbana, can it. Keep pondering and examining the root of your experience. Sooner or later it will dawn on you.

right... but do I look mad enough to fight ecstatic bliss when it happens? emoticon
to me it is nice bonus and good opportunity to observe myself. And BTW I really really really really like it and any good feeling, extatic feeling, metta feeling, physical pleasure and every good bit of pleasure this life have to offer... nibbana too, though I do not know yet which one is it supposed to be...

Ian And:
Paweł K:

From this perspective permanently changing Self to no-Self looks like only changing apples for oranges...

It shouldn't. If it's done without self knowledge, then, maybe so – maybe it gives the illusion of "changing apples for oranges." And you are accepting that view as your reality.

Lately I found out that this no-self I was experiencing was not so much self-less as I thought and self wasn't also completely no-self-less. It is little too early for me to elaborate more on this, I suspect it have to do with hemispheres and enable me to experience four native types of *self modes and ultimately change nothing as far as this topic and insight I had those few months ago is concerned. It stays and is fully valid not only to *selves but pretty much everything that have to do with mind.

If done with self realization (gnosis), it should be just the realization that there is no self in phenomena. Your life, as it was, still continues. You still have responsibilities, obligations and what not. It's just that now you know (have become aware) what you are doing each and every moment rather than experiencing everything as though in a dream over which you have little control.

how I understand teachings of Buddha is that first we should study ourselves, our mind objects, our body, our awareness, etc and then and only then make ending conclusions that things are in some way and not another. It is imho beneficial to keep mind in superposition of conclusions until skillful one can be made. Though this superposition have to also be skillful and not just being lazy and undecided.

@Daniel Ingram
right now my understanding is that there is multitude of various sensations, much more than mind could possibly access consciously and mind is filtering them and spawning consciousness at programmed break points. Change trigger rules, change those break points and whole perception will change.

Who change them? All I know it is easy to program myself to not see free-will and just conditioned reality, domino effect. And if it is programmed I have to be very suspicious and do not pin 'ultimate' sticker on it. Once identification leach is cut it is maybe too easy to create artificial blissful, peaceful, etc mind states. You call those PCE, right? Which PCE is most ultimate of all? I do not think such thing exist as we always choose limited amount of sensations to trigger awareness/consciousness. We can't have them all in all permutations, all versions, that would be insane as brain have power limits, it would consume 99% of body energy, overheat and die it I was to experience everything for few minutes... emoticon

All I can say is that instead of looking for ultimate state much more important thing to concentrate on is getting better at mind hacking. Maybe some day ultimate state will hit me, maybe it won't. I am not yet bored enough to look for ultimates as I have many mind objects to play with, to explore...

Good thing is to conserve some energy by removing break points for dukkha as it is power-hog and something obviously very unpleasant. Place some on metta to fill the void and make time resolution higher (time will appear slower), that will make em brain cells busy and happy emoticon

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/1/14 10:38 AM as a reply to Paweł K.
The common way of looking at this is as you said, that there are zillions of sensations but we can only comprehend a limited number of them.

Except that perspective actually misses a really essential point that is strangely obvious once you think about it and yet also quite slippery, given how we are so used to not seeing things this say, or so we think.

That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.

We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves), but we actually believe that this secondary impression, this echo, this stand-in, is actually the awareness, the comprehension, when it is actually just a secondary effect from the first cause, that being the first sensation that the second sensation follows.

Said another way:

All of the sensations know themselves as and when and where they are, always have, always will, couldn't be any other way. Awareness and phenomena just always are not n a 1:1 ratio, they are actually just the same thing.

When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known.

So, just let the field in all of its richness speak for itself, including the small, central, limited copying process, and, seen thusly, the knot of perception that doesn't realize that the things already happened and already knew themselves will eventually and perhaps in stages shift to the whole thing knowing itself directly, as it actually always has but just somehow failed to know that at the level that makes the difference.

I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear senate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight.

Dukkha is a power hog only because it fails to realize that the work was already done, that phenomena already knew themselves naturally, and so it is when that overcompensation stops that the whole thing fully knows that it shines on its own without having to do anything.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/1/14 8:57 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.


Great stuff. This post seems to answer a question I wanted to ask you about whether a customised form of Advaita practice could possibly lead to the same/similar results as hardcore dharma. Based on this post, it seems like it might.

Bear in mind that all this is strategy designed to undermine dualistic illusions, not metaphysics / ontology.

Start with the notion that awareness is that to which phenomena appear. Think of it as the unseen seer. Discover that awareness can never be located as a phenomenon. It can never have the properties of an object, gross or subtle. Yet its presence can't be doubted.

Next, discover that objects of awareness can't truly be distinguished from awareness itself. No such distinction is ever actually experienced. Objects, in that sense, "are" awareness. (Again, not talking metaphysics here, talking strategy).

This leads to the discovery that nonduality is not a special experience, it's actually inescapable. All experience is already undivided. But the fact that attention is continually echoing and bouncing around between notions of "the world" and a central comprehender -- (both of which are 'objects') -- seemingly obscures the effortlessly 'self-luminous' quality of phenomena. And when that settles down and becomes clear, one can rest. It's happening by itself. (And then the scaffolding ideas are no longer needed... and it'd be foolish to cling to them).

Again, I'd emphasise that, as metaphysics, this sucks. But as a strategy for reducing dualistic illusions and the needless tensions, frustrations and thwarted efforts that arise from them, it seems to work pretty well. (I did this for a while back in 2006, but didn't take it all the way... ie. didn't take it to the point that it became the effortless default).

--

Edited to add: To pre-empt any queries as to whether I conceive this to be a PCE.... no. It's different. (Not just because it includes feelings but because it includes that whole 'dimension' in which feelings and other psychic elements arise).

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/2/14 5:42 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves)


let me quote myself
Also in this state it is obvious that actions are took by no-self and self is just an trailing sensation that interpret what happens so that it would appear as doing of a self but with that trailing it is actually influencing decisions. Not making them but influencing nevertheless.

only fishy part about this is that it fails to be 'fire once and forget' thing, I still can get affective feelings though I can shut them with dis-identification(by doing the same thing, same procedure to what identify and rest of no-self experiential reality and then anger become just sensation sitting next to other sensations and without fuel from identification die off pretty quickly and it seems whatever was angry become happy

if it was constant thing without any exception and cycling (from time to time I get short DN like periods 2-3 days tops) thing I would already consider myself Arahat but because it is not then I miss something important here. Or it just have to sink in and bad kamma have to burn out... time will tell and for now I have to know myself better, gain more control and try to stay on the zen bull all the time.

When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known.

imho you oversimplify things but I won't go into much details now and oversimplify this too =) There are layers of perception and those relate to chakras and self is on third layer. Self by itself is not bad and its input is very valuable but for it to be that way it have to be transparent and just add skillful contribution and not just junk. There is nothing wrong with feeling its opinion that I am in control of my body as long as it is done in skillful way so I do not identify with that image and see it as just one of many interpretations of what really happened. Others include 'Brahman did it' and while I am atheist I am in not position to handle myself skillfully without this view. Kinda paradox but it is how it apparently have to be if I want to experience my full potential. 'It just happened' is Muladhara explanation, and pretty valid too, don't you think? emoticon

I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear senate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight.

yeah, like one could get bored with dis-identification... only way to do that (get bored) would be to do unskillful act of identify and we have mindfulness to detect and correct this misbehavior, don't we?

@John Wilde
whether a customised form of Advaita practice could possibly lead to the same/similar results as hardcore dharma

doh, obviously it will lead to the same realization
it was only delusional Buddha who thought otherwise
on the other hand who would have listened to him if he said that he know how to crack the same nut but from slightly different angle? Probably no one emoticon

Next, discover that objects of awareness can't truly be distinguished from awareness itself. No such distinction is ever actually experienced. Objects, in that sense, "are" awareness.

have to disagree on you there
objects are object and are 'there' as possibility even if they are not experienced by awareness impulse
and awareness can but don't have to be triggered by actions of those objects. Objects have predictable input onto experience.
Awareness can be triggered by itself! So it can be studied in more detail and it seems it too have predicable input.

Knowing that one could categorize and mentally separate awareness from its objects. Like when you have picture drawn on CRT monitor you can say picture is the same as drawing process and can't be truly distinguished from it. But studying how this contraption work one will know exactly how picture is drawn and be not confused about that mechanism and that input signal commencted to such monitor is the same thing as picture drawn on monitor. Awareness is such impulse driven monitor intended not only to displaying but to viewing that and sending back signals onto objects it is connected to.

if awareness can be triggered by itself then it can be studied in more depth and enable adept to be able to dis-identify with it and in result it will deepen his/her dis-identification with incoming sensations. Obviously one can try to disidentify with sensation not going into much detail into what awareness is but I have hunch it is less skillful approach and would take much more time to get good results out of it. It is always better to open up things and study them from inside to know how they work

This leads to the discovery that nonduality is not a special experience, it's actually inescapable. All experience is already undivided

right but problem is identifying with parts of experience and that create separation, painful pull and push that create stress/dukkha so even if on some deeper level we still experience non-dually it doesn't change fact that with dukkha this experience is crappy

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/2/14 7:33 AM as a reply to Paweł K.
I am actually talking about something much more fundamental than the way you seem to read me, as I interpret your words.

It can be hardwired, become the way all sensate phenomena are perceived, which is to say perceive themselves, as it actually always was the way all phenomena were manifesting, but this can finally be known directly and automatically without exception and regardless of things like states, modes, chakras, insight stages, and all of that, as, being the way things are, is intrinsic to however the specifics manifest in all their rich occurrence.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/2/14 10:58 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I do not think I am there just yet ...

This whole thing is like big 4D puzzle with a lot of 4D pieces that seem to fit when looking from one side and not fit from other. Or like optical illusion pictures, as separate parts picture make sense but whole picture is just confusing

I will try to look at what I think are most 'fundamental' building blocks of my sensate experience and make something out of them.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/3/14 2:37 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception


Thank you! Just wanted to say that this was very relevant for me. Good stuff in this thread!