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Claims to Attainments

need advice on how to hide insight progress.

I find myself struggling not with how to achieve profound states, not with how to let those profound states outflow the incredible bliss into my day to day, moment to moment awareness, but rather how to contain it and bottle it back up. Because after all being 'enlightened' or even profoundly happy is not socially acceptable in our society. When you meet new people they generally want to talk about the things that are going wrong in their lives, the stress points so to speak. They want you to listen to their sob stories and then empathize and tell them your own stories about your own struggles this way you are finding common ground and they can relate to you. For example lets say I'm on a date with a young lady, she wants to know about the drama in my life because she just told me a big story about the drama in her life. She needs to be able to understand my life as if it were a soap opera or a reality TV show in a certain sense. She is trying to make sure that I'm a 'real person' who struggles in the same way that she struggles, so that she can relate to me. People want to make friends with those who's struggles and achievements they can relate to.

You can't just say to someone "I feel amazing every day, life feels like magic, and my only problem is having to find ways to pretend like I don't feel so great so that I can relate to normal people". You don't have any normal 'life relationship dramas' do you ? No. Because your life is blessed and because drama rolls off you like water off the back of a duck, so instead you have to *pretend* to be a normal person, pretend that the little circumstantial dramas with your friends and relatives stress you out, pretend that you're worried about this, or fundamentally confused about that. You can't say to her 'babe there's nothing to worry about, you just have to awaken your consciousness to live in the profound peace of mind that is your true birthright and true self'. Your biggest problem is a problem of how to effectively hide your level of attainment, so that you can still get laid, socialize with a large group of friends, and in general make those around you feel comfortable.

The more profound your states of meditation are the more difficult it is to fake being a normal quasi-depressed westerner. I mean don't get me wrong it's easy to do during the first few interactions when you meet someone because you develop a routine. It's easy to do long enough to get relationships started with women, or to get along with people at work, but difficult to maintain over the long run as people spend more and more time around you. "He's really chill, honest, relaxed, civil, intelligent, and comfortable, so much so that spending lots of time around him almost makes me feel like there's something wrong with me". That is OK if you're a 60 year old man who has a community of buddhist monks around you or whatever, then it makes sense for you to be like that, but if you're a 31 year old IT guy in a normal american city then people find it confusing. I'm posting this in the 'claims to attainment' forum because I'm sure some people will read it that way even though that's not really my intention with this message.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 3:27 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
You're saying you have a solution to the problems that plague people, and now you want to hide it from them by pretending you haven't? Why? Isn't that a bit selfish of you? Don't go about evangelizing, since that doesn't do anything, but if people ask then you can get into a conversation with them about it and see if they aren't willing to listen. Otherwise, why pretend to be one of them? Because it's easier for you? But why, if all you are is bliss and drama rolls off your back, do you want to avoid disappointing other people by not being like them? That sounds more like you are avoiding drama instead of it rolling off your back regardless of what happens. Maybe something for you to investigate.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 4:01 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
You're saying you have a solution to the problems that plague people, and now you want to hide it from them by pretending you haven't? Why? Isn't that a bit selfish of you?


Well "the solution" is already out there in the public domain. It's not something that I have a monopoly on, and it's not even something that I think I'd be particularly good at teaching. My teaching style is generally to refer people to the books and other source materials that helped me get over whatever it is that I think they're stuck on. I don't get a lot of opportunities to do that though. I don't hide the fact that I meditate per say, and I hail as a buddhist whenever the topic of religion comes up. But if you tell someone that buddhist practice makes you profoundly happy, then they're going to see it either as evangelizing or as egotism. I find there's no good way to introduce people to the subject unless they are already complaining about how they are depressed but even in such cases most women I find at least don't want actual suggestions on how they can become less depressed instead they just want you to say something like "aww I'm sorry babe, give me a hug, is there anything I can do for you ? " In other words most women want to frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic, and most guys don't want to talk about it really, all you can do is tell them something like "meditation works for me, I'll shoot you a book recommendation that I found helpful".

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Don't go about evangelizing, since that doesn't do anything, but if people ask then you can get into a conversation with them about it and see if they aren't willing to listen. Otherwise, why pretend to be one of them? Because it's easier for you? But why, if all you are is bliss and drama rolls off your back, do you want to avoid disappointing other people by not being like them ?


As you progress along the path you develop compassion for yourself not just for other people, and out of that compassion for yourself emerges a duty to not allow yourself to become completely socially isolated even if you know you can definitely handle it psychologically. If you isolate yourself socially then it makes your relatives worried about you, they will assume you have some kind of mental illness, and they will feel like they've failed in their duty to raise you properly and to support you. Therefor in order to help your family feel good, and out of compassion for your body's need to be touched, and out of respect for your own preference to be around people, you do whatever is necessary to be a social being. This usually means finding ways to mask your normal state of consciousness and to pretend to be like everyone else to the degree that will make them feel comfortable. It can be a challenge though.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

That sounds more like you are avoiding drama instead of it rolling off your back regardless of what happens. Maybe something for you to investigate.


Interesting, I will contemplate that. Yes in a sense I am avoiding the drama that would be associated with telling people the truth about how they can fix all their own problems with certain awareness practices. I avoid this drama not because I'm afraid of experiencing the drama (I have experienced it in the past), but rather because my goal is to facilitate a 'normal interaction' for the compassion-oriented reasons mentioned above. People in general don't want to hear that you have the solution to their core angst, and that you understand life better than them, so if your goal is to not isolate yourself socially then you have to go with what people are looking for socially. *sigh*. I will contemplate what you said though.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:08 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Beside obviously wanting to get rid of my suffering, my moral motivation to eventually get enlightenment is to become where other people fears come to die. So not only do I need to be fearless myself but I also need to develop the social skills to allow this process to happens. A lot can happens simply by eyes contacts. Selflessness can be communicated a lot by the eyes. You can allow the other to rest his eyes comfortably in yours because you are not avoiding the eye contact and neither are you making a dominating stairs. Favor situations where the person or you can break the eye contact comfortably, like walking together. Each time, the person will get a glimpse of it. Dose skillfully and you can bring a lot of relaxation in the person life.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:19 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Thanks Simon. I completely agree that so much communication is non-verbal. I will reflect on this often.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:31 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Thanks Simon. I completely agree that so much communication is non-verbal. I will reflect on this often.


Jeff Foster talks about connecting with people in his interview on Buddha At The Gas Pump. He talks exactly about that challenge.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:33 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Were you socially adept before you started meditating? If not, this problem likely predates your practice. If you have few interests that you can discuss with people other than meditation, consider challenging the assumption that you should be socially active in the first place. I don't recommend total withdrawal from human interaction, but it's worth considering (for example) whether actively seeking a long-term romantic relationship is in line with your highest or innermost goals.

There's also no shame in regrouping after each major change. You may find that associations with people and groups that worked in the past are no longer mutually beneficial. It can take some time for the new "I" to figure out what it thinks it wants; not coincidentally, if you're practicing regularly, the solidification of a new post-path identity tends to initiate the next path.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 6:08 PM as a reply to Matthew Horn.
Matthew Horn:
Were you socially adept before you started meditating? If not, this problem likely predates your practice. If you have few interests that you can discuss with people other than meditation, consider challenging the assumption that you should be socially active in the first place. I don't recommend total withdrawal from human interaction, but it's worth considering (for example) whether actively seeking a long-term romantic relationship is in line with your highest or innermost goals.


I was young when I started meditating, like in my teens. I do have other interests, but admittedly you wouldn't know it from reading my posts here. For example I own a web startup company, and I'm a software developer, so I'm very much in tune with the happenings in the tech world. I tend to meet women who are working in some capacity in the tech sector or are at least oriented to it so we can connect on that stuff. I could always develop more non-work, non-meditation related interests that would be good advice, but the gist of my message is not so much a complaint about not having stuff to talk about with women. I have what it takes to hook up with women, and to make friends. I'm just complaining that I have to basically be an actor in order to do so, therefor I'm expending energy pretending to have attitudes that I don't have, emotions that I don't feel, etc. in order to do whatever it takes to be a normal boyfriend, or friend or whatever. It works fine and I suppose I don't really need 'help' with it after all I'm just complaining about having to do it, and sometimes I wonder if it's what I should be doing or not. Sometimes I go through periods where I step back from doing it and just spend time by myself and that recharges me to a certain extent.

You might be right about a long-term romantic relationship not being inline with my highest goals. I get burnt out after a while so I either go off by myself for long periods of time or I stop putting as much effort into the acting job; and that causes tension in the relationship. The problem is I love women lol. I'll find one who can give me the space I need or doesn't require as much 'acting' one of these days I suppose.

http://www.typelogic.com/intj.html

Matthew Horn:
There's also no shame in regrouping after each major change. You may find that associations with people and groups that worked in the past are no longer mutually beneficial. It can take some time for the new "I" to figure out what it thinks it wants; not coincidentally, if you're practicing regularly, the solidification of a new post-path identity tends to initiate the next path.


interesting. I will reflect on this, and read more 'paths'.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 6:11 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
For example I own a web startup company, and I'm a software developer, so I'm very much in tune with the happenings in the tech world.

Oh this is off-topic, but awesome, me too. I am in a startup and am a software developer. Python + Javascript is da stuff for me.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 7:26 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.

Next if you can find people who happen to be happier types I would hang around them more. There's no point spending time with negative types because they will just be envious and try to test your equanimity. Envy ruins everything.

At work just DON'T TALK ABOUT BUDDHISM. They'll look at you like a lunatic. Even if they understand just a little bit of what you're talking about it's likely too much information for them to process at once and they will misunderstand you. I've done this mistake and I even repeated it recently but I was talking about dopamine and psychology and it just backfires because they don't have a clue what you're talking about. It's like talking a foreign language to them, especially to those who aren't religious, don't read philosophy, don't know any psychology, and chase desire at all times.

Remember how you were before you meditated. Did you have doubts about the practice? Did it take a lot of time for a lot of it to sink in? It will be the same for other people except it's worse because they aren't even thinking about pursuing meditation and probably don't want it.

I remember some people talking about (probably Jhanic experiences) at work after their yoga practices and getting all proselytizing about it and bosses making fun of it. "So is Yoga a religion for you?"

So the reality at work is to compete by putting good effort but using your sympathy you've developed to relate to people.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 7:26 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hermetically Sealed:
For example I own a web startup company, and I'm a software developer, so I'm very much in tune with the happenings in the tech world.

Oh this is off-topic, but awesome, me too. I am in a startup and am a software developer. Python + Javascript is da stuff for me.


fantastic!
Ruby + Javascript + (Riak || couchdb) over here. On the front end side of things bootstrap 3.0 just came out today. I love it when people invent tools that make it easier for me to pretend like I'm an awesome designer. Get it while it's hot http://getbootstrap.com/

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 7:54 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end. It's too risky and unfair to her to suddenly present her with new concepts and try to re-frame her view of who you are in the middle of the relationship, it's almost like false advertising. I presented myself as person A in order to start the relationship, so I'm not going to just wait until we've had a bunch of sex and then tell her "oh by the way I'm person B". It's better to just commit to being person A and do as good a job with it as you can I think. You're right about it being impossible to hide at some point, which is the main thing I wanted to underline with this thread.

Maybe part of my problem is that I don't wrap myself in any of the trappings of buddhist religion, I mean I don't have little buddha statues or a "free tibet" sticker or anything. Maybe I should find ways to present that as part of my personality from the onset to make it less problematic later on. Or maybe I just need to move to LA where there's more yoga girls. That's something I'll think about. (humor / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-8IPDR4Khc)


Richard Zen:

Next if you can find people who happen to be happier types I would hang around them more. There's no point spending time with negative types because they will just be envious and try to test your equanimity. Envy ruins everything.


Agreed.

Richard Zen:

At work just DON'T TALK ABOUT BUDDHISM.


Oh totally I would never dream of it.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 8:10 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relating to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end. It's too risky and unfair to her to suddenly present her with new concepts and try to re-frame her view of who you are in the middle of the relationship, it's almost like false advertising. I presented myself as person A in order to start the relationship, so I'm not going to just wait until we've had a bunch of sex and then tell her "oh by the way I'm person B". It's better to just commit to being person A and do as good a job with it as you can I think. You're right about it being impossible to hide at some point, which is the main thing I wanted to underline with this thread.


I'm not hugely experienced in relationships but I would hate being with a whiner so I would avoid women who only want to whine because that will bode badly for long-term relationships whether you have equanimity or not. Secondly you shouldn't fake insecurity to get with certain girls because you want to hide your Buddhist background. Don't hide it except for work relationships etc. That way you don't have to be in a false advertising scenario.

Here's a good blog with some nice pointers:

Tips on finding the right woman for you

The woman for you will have your back.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 8:45 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relating to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end. It's too risky and unfair to her to suddenly present her with new concepts and try to re-frame her view of who you are in the middle of the relationship, it's almost like false advertising. I presented myself as person A in order to start the relationship, so I'm not going to just wait until we've had a bunch of sex and then tell her "oh by the way I'm person B". It's better to just commit to being person A and do as good a job with it as you can I think. You're right about it being impossible to hide at some point, which is the main thing I wanted to underline with this thread.


Secondly you shouldn't fake insecurity to get with certain girls because you want to hide your Buddhist background. Don't hide it except for work relationships etc. That way you don't have to be in a false advertising scenario.


I will think about how I to retool my dating reality filter to somehow let more of the buddhist stuff in from the onset. I'm sure that will turn off some women but maybe it'll help me filter better for the one I really want.

Richard Zen:

Here's a good blog with some nice pointers:

Tips on finding the right woman for you

The woman for you will have your back.


Hey thanks for this I can tell this is good advice.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 9:25 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
It seems to me that you're "looking for love" in all the wrong places. A woman who you truly are compatible with will be compatible with you physically (maybe with a little work on your or her part lol), emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually. While she may not be as far along on the path as you, she will probably have some interest in spirituality, and she may have started progress through insight territory, whether she meant to or not. Love tends to "just happen" and isn't really something that you can "make happen." If you are constantly preoccupied with it, you may miss out on someone who is truly a match for you. I "fell in love" with a girl recently, and she completely took me off guard. I was not even thinking about a partner, and me and her relate so well that we can finish each other's sentences. I'd say I'm a little further on the path than her, but she is on it as well, and it is probably one of the main things we talk about. As far as attainments go, you seem to be a little ahead of me on the path, but that doesn't mean there isn't a woman out there for you. If you force yourself to be with someone who is not at least at a comparable level of consciousness or insight progress as you, you are not gaining anything from it. It's empty, like you said; you're just acting. I can relate to your age thing, as I am only 21 and already on the path, it seems that we are both "old souls". I'm relatively certain there is a woman out there who is an "old soul" for you as well. On the other hand, you may have to face the reality that you might not ever find "someone" for you and you'll have to die alone. Ouch, I can feel my "self" getting really afraid of that, probably some great fodder for some insight.

In regards to dealing with regular people, maybe you should reconsider the people you are spending your time with? Now that I've spent some time on the path, I've realized that most other people "bring me down." I'm not being negative in anyway and they don't do it intentionally, it's just that they haven't realized what we all here at DhO have. There is a Rumi poem that speaks well on this matter: Be With Those Who Help Your Being . Why spend your time with those who aren't on the path if you don't have to? For things of necessity such as work, errands, etc. of course it is unavoidable, but in your free time, wouldn't it make sense to spend time with others on the path? Please don't think I am being judgmental as this is something I'm trying to work on myself. It seems that you may want to consider looking for a group of spiritual people that you can hang out with in person. DhO is amazing and you guys have helped me a lot on the path, but nothing beats real world face time. I live in the metropolitan area, NJ specifically, so if you're nearby I'm always open to meeting up with others on the path! I hope you've found some of my thoughts useful.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 10:47 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
I will think about how I to retool my dating reality filter to somehow let more of the buddhist stuff in from the onset. I'm sure that will turn off some women but maybe it'll help me filter better for the one I really want.


Bingo! You got it. The irony is that it will be good for those women you avoid because they should also filter for values in a relationship. You want to avoid those common nasty divorces because I've seen too many people around me emotionally crushed and they are hugely envious of those who are free and on their own.

Here's some more good stuff from psychology today:

What makes a happy, successful marriage?

Higher failure rate of second and third marriages

There! Hopefully you are armed to the teeth with reality so you can make better informed choices. As you know with habits being difficult to deal with even when you meditate what are the chances that someone will change habits if they don't even try? Pretty small chance.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 10:41 PM as a reply to Maher K.
Maher K:
It seems to me that you're "looking for love" in all the wrong places. A woman who you truly are compatible with will be compatible with you physically (maybe with a little work on your or her part lol), emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually. While she may not be as far along on the path as you, she will probably have some interest in spirituality, and she may have started progress through insight territory, whether she meant to or not.


I completely agree with you. A master I trust once said: "For there to be Love it is necessary for there to be affinity of thought, affinity of feeling, and affinity of will." It's easy to get into a relationship knowing that at least 2 of the 3 are there, and hoping that the third factor will come into alignment but it doesn't always happen that way. I will just have to not let past failures get me down so that I'm open to accepting a perfect match who I'm sure will show up as soon as I'm truly ready.


If you force yourself to be with someone who is not at least at a comparable level of consciousness or insight progress as you, you are not gaining anything from it. It's empty, like you said; you're just acting.


I will be satisfied if she is just focused on evolving her consciousness. I don't mind if she's far ahead or far behind me when it comes to insight progress goes as long as her will is focused in the same direction. I suppose I'm OK with acting as long as I know for sure that it's helping someone, then it's no longer a chore. I just need to find the right one you're right on the money, until then I'll work on myself at every level possible including the skill of "acting" so that I'm 100% ready to receive such a blessing.


I can relate to your age thing, as I am only 21 and already on the path, it seems that we are both "old souls". I'm relatively certain there is a woman out there who is an "old soul" for you as well. On the other hand, you may have to face the reality that you might not ever find "someone" for you and you'll have to die alone. Ouch, I can feel my "self" getting really afraid of that, probably some great fodder for some insight.


Thanks bud! and congrats on coming so far so quickly! Don't worry the further your practice develops the less alone you'll feel even when conventionally speaking you are alone. It's satisfying to be able to see that your every day energies are going to help a specific being though, which is really all I want out of a relationship. I think a good relationship acts as a mirror so that you can learn more about yourself than would be possible otherwise. This is why even a person with a lower degree of insight awareness can still teach you an infinite amount, because you are really learning about yourself, and in truth you are infinite.


Why spend your time with those who aren't on the path if you don't have to? For things of necessity such as work, errands, etc. of course it is unavoidable, but in your free time, wouldn't it make sense to spend time with others on the path? Please don't think I am being judgmental as this is something I'm trying to work on myself. It seems that you may want to consider looking for a group of spiritual people that you can hang out with in person. DhO is amazing and you guys have helped me a lot on the path, but nothing beats real world face time. I live in the metropolitan area, NJ specifically, so if you're nearby I'm always open to meeting up with others on the path! I hope you've found some of my thoughts useful.


Thanks man, yea you make great points. I do magnetize good people to me actually and the ones who aren't on the path are really in secret on the path they just don't realize it fully. I'm on the west coast right now but I have relatives in NY so I'll remember you the next time I find myself in that metro, maybe we can kick it. Thanks again for your help

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 11:52 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end.

Dood, all that is happening exactly because you have an air of "holier than thou". Look at the way you're describing the other, though I replaced the pronoun to make it more personal since you are talking about yourself here after all: "she's already a little bit jealous of level of self-control".

I'm reminded of an old mailing list I read somewhere where someone was asking for advice on how to deal with women. He said he had problems with women because they were intimadated by his inteligence. Yes, he had tons of spelling errors in his post. It was fairly clear that actually he wasn't quite that intelligent, so it wasn't that women were intimidated by his intelligence but they were put off by him feeling like he was very intelligent when in fact he wasn't.

I could be wrong, of course, this is just an educated guess, so I leave it to you to determine whether it's accurate. But if it is, how will you proceed?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 4:11 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end.

Dood, all that is happening exactly because you have an air of "holier than thou". Look at the way you're describing the other, though I replaced the pronoun to make it more personal since you are talking about yourself here after all: "she's already a little bit jealous of level of self-control".


I agree it does sound 'holier than thou' never the less that doesn't mean it wasn't accurate. It's my duty to attempt to describe the situation as I perceived it. There's a difference between sounding 'holier than thou' when describing the situation on a forum and acting 'holier than thou' in real life. In real human relationships there are power differentials, this is a fact. Relationships constellate around these power sincs or power mountains although they are rarely spoken of directly. It has always been this way although in the most ancient hunter-gatherer times it was far more obvious. A romantic relationship can be a precarious balance of power. The feminine has certain power sources and the male other power sources. Why would a very physically attractive woman mate with a less physically attractive male ? Usually this is because he has some other source of power to offset his lack of physical attractiveness (I'm not saying I'm not physically attractive mind you this is just an example). In such a situation there can be a game of tug of war going on where the woman is trying to prove that her power approximates that of the male's. Many women like to feel slightly less powerful than their mate but not majorly so.

If during the course of a relationship either lover unveils a previously concealed source of power which he cannot immediately share with his partner then the entire balance of the relationship has shifted and the partner has to reevaluate how she feels about the new dynamic. If the new power gradient is say, a million dollars earned from a winning lottery ticket, then it's not a problem because the winner can merely share the money with his mate, but when the new source of power is something spiritual then that can indeed cause problems because such power is not easily transferred. Some people are happy to see that their mate has a greater abundance of power than previously imagined, but for others it will be perceived as a loss of control, and many people feel like they need to have a certain amount of control in order to feel comfortable.

Many times it is impossible to describe such dynamics without sounding egotistical especially if you try to do it using very few words.


Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I'm reminded of an old mailing list I read somewhere where someone was asking for advice on how to deal with women. He said he had problems with women because they were intimadated by his inteligence. Yes, he had tons of spelling errors in his post. It was fairly clear that actually he wasn't quite that intelligent, so it wasn't that women were intimidated by his intelligence but they were put off by him feeling like he was very intelligent when in fact he wasn't.


right on, point taken; What you say is true and these examples are real. With that said I do think that in many cases individuals really are intimidated by other individual's intelligence. To illustrate my point lets take an example that is common ground for both of us; a job interview at a web startup company. If you are the one being interviewed and your skillset and prior accomplishments are impressive then you are in danger of causing the other team members to worry that you might try to 'take over the lead' of the team when that may not necessarily be what they have in mind. Some team members might even be afraid that you will replace them or point out the shortcomings of their work. As the interviewee it is your task to not only prove that you are qualified for the job, but to also prove that you don't intend to wield your power in ways that may be perceived as threatening. I have personally witnessed many instances of people being intimidated by other people's intelligence in this scenario and it has caused many teams to pass up amazing talent and literally seek the mediocre thereby shooting the company in the foot while it is trying to get off the ground. A thoughtful CEO must be aware of this dynamic and always seek to counter this tendency in a skillful way. I have been the overzelous interviewee before who was oblivious to this dynamic and didn't get the position even though on paper he was the most qualified, and I have been a team member who helped counter this tendency and helped guide the team to a balanced solution. I'm a big fan of balanced solutions. There's no secret to balance, you just have to feel the waves.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I could be wrong, of course, this is just an educated guess, so I leave it to you to determine whether it's accurate. But if it is, how will you proceed?


Thank you for always providing me with a legitimate challenge. One must always act based on what one feels to be true although one should make use of every reasonable opportunity to double check his assumptions. If I realize that I've made a mistake then obviously the right thing to do is to apologize, do whatever damage control may be possible, and make damn sure I don't make the mistake again. I try to make sure that the next time I'm about to act on an assumption, I think much harder about that assumption, and spend much more time making sure I've hunted down all the relevant data which I can get my hands on. I try to never shut out the possibility that I could be mistaken especially about such subtle relationship issues. I assume that I must be completely wrong some percentage of the time. To err is only human, but I seek to eliminate that tendency whenever possible, and I try to make use of both my facilities of intuition and of logic before coming to conclusions. I admit that I have made such errors in the past, and I seek to never make them again, that's really all I can say. Thank you again seriously for your help, sometimes having someone there to play the 'devil's advocate' is exactly what I need.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 2:22 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Haven't red all the replies, so I'm sorry if I'm going to tell something that has already been told.

I tend to consider social interactions with other people a bit like, let's say, eating habits, in the sense that is something that you have control upon, and depending on how you relate to that it can end up beign very beneficial or very very negative. The way Isee it, expecially inthe realm of close relationships, negative human contact shouldbe regarded like anything else that is dangerous for yourself, such as smoking, alcool, bad eating habits and so on.

Some people are very good to be around with; some other are just toxic; also, the more you grow happy and sane, the more your standard for those around you tend to change, so thatpeople that before were ok might begin to be percievedas toxic, depending on how much you are sensible to these issues.

So, I don't feel that there is any problem in limiting the amount of social interactions, for the very simple reason thatnot having something that is unhealty in your life is just clearly so much better than having it;this is particularly true if you have the kind of psychological sanity that you describe.

If you feel with someone close that you need to pretend to be something that you are not, probably it's not sane for you to nurture that relationship. There is something that is really bad about liying, keeping a secret, and in general pretending; it's just unhealty.

I don't have so much social interaction, but I really enjoy the vast majority of my close relationships; I guess I'm lucky...