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Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?

Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
path vipassana dharma anxiety shinzen young mental illness bipolar beginning emotion advice
Answer
8/26/13 11:26 PM
Hello DharmaOverground,

I'm a teenager that began meditation a couple of years ago, primarily Vipassana meditation as taught by Shinzen Young. I did it because it made my day more enjoyable. I continued to do this for a few years, but then something unusual occurred, which may or may not be related to my meditation. I was put into the psychiatric system.

To elaborate, a series of unusual symptoms appeared so quickly that my life greatly changed. Firstly, my thoughts became incredibly out of control, as if the wellspring of creativity was suddenly broken open and perpetually flooding my mind. For weeks on end, my mind would spin and spin, forcing me to constantly unload my thoughts onto writing and poetry. Afterwards, I began to experience derealization, which is best shown by this painting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scream.jpg . Along with this came the strange sense that I was looking at the world for the first time. I remember looking at trees and people, and like a toddler, thinking what a strange but interesting world. Eventually this appreciation transformed into very strong emotions, perhaps even mania. For example, I recall listening to music and breaking down into tears at how beautiful it was. On the other hand, this emotional intensity sadly also consisted of some very deep lows and terrifying anxiety.

I went to a doctor and told them about all of this, and they thought I was either mentally ill or brain-damaged. Thus for a while I was put into the circus of psychiatry. Well eventually all the tests came in and no clear results appeared. This forced me to look for alternative explanations for what I've experienced, and that's ultimately why I'm here.

If anybody can relate what I've experienced to Dharma, I would greatly appreciate the guidance. I apologize if I didn't use the appropriate terminology, and am happy to expand on anything I've said.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 12:12 AM as a reply to M T.
What I would suggest is that you focus on samatha meditation aka 'concentration' practices for a while. The Buddha taught samatha to be used in conjunction with vipassana. In practice what you will find is that the samatha practice helps you keep the mood swings under control. You'll find ton's of information about that elsewhere on this site just look for "samatha" or "samatha jhanas" or "jhana". Congrats on your progress and on extracting yourself from the mental health establishment; don't take any drugs they may have prescribed, that's my advice at least. good luck

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Concentration;jsessionid=91FD307D610AE6680B6E49A7395C9DA2?p_r_p_185834411_title=Concentration

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 12:26 AM as a reply to M T.
Hi, I have put almost as much information as I can about bipolar disorder/mental illness and practice in this post: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3373753

Only time will tell if what you're experiencing is the A&P, bipolar disorder, or both. There is just not enough information to go by. It could easily just be the A&P caused by meditation and you may have no actual illness. On the other hand, in my experience, people who tend to "fall into the psychiatric establishment" are usually legitimate cases of bipolar (because their functioning becomes poor enough to "seek help") though you could be an exception because you've been meditating and are posting here. There needs to be more history to go off than this one event to make a diagnosis of mental illness (which a physician or psychiatrist should only do).

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 12:27 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I also second the advice for samatha meditation and I provide instruction on how to do this in the post I linked to above.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 1:08 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:
On the other hand, in my experience, people who tend to "fall into the psychiatric establishment" are usually legitimate cases of bipolar (because their functioning becomes poor enough to "seek help")


I think it's just a measure of how sheltered a life the young person has lived. In other words a measure of how naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast" (mental health system). Most teenagers have already figured out that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam; a deceptive and often violent advertising front for the pharmaceutical cartel, and so they know quite rightly that it's better to go to prison than to "ask for help". In prison there's a zero percent chance that you'll end up strapped down against your will with electrodes on your temples and then be continually subjected to high voltage electric shock, chemically sedated against your will, or worse. These things are still happening. Kids who've lived a sheltered life however might think that it's OK to ask for help for really small things..



http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-health-abuse/electroshock/simone-d/200707

http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Pharma-Drug-Cartel-Pharmaceutical/dp/1432712802

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 2:08 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

Hermetically Sealed:
I think it's just a measure of how sheltered a life the young person has lived. In other words a measure of how naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast" (mental health system). Most teenagers have already figured out that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam; a deceptive and often violent advertising front for the pharmaceutical cartel, and so they know quite rightly that it's better to go to prison than to "ask for help". In prison there's a zero percent chance that you'll end up strapped down against your will with electrodes on your temples and then be continually subjected to high voltage electric shock, chemically sedated against your will, or worse. These things are still happening. Kids who've lived a sheltered life however might think that it's OK to ask for help for really small things..


You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'. I do however know a number of people working within or around the mental health system who are kind and caring people that look to help and not harm. I also know people working in a maximum security prison and after hearing their stories your advice that prison is a better option than seeking the help from the mental health system seems very odd to me.

Would you care to elaborate on what experiences your views of the mental health system are based? I'm also curious what it is you propose that people do instead of seeking professional psychological help for their mental issues.

I'll also mention that people very dear to me have sought and obtained help within the mental health system and would likely be in far worse shape today if they had not.

Thanks,
Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:21 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

Hermetically Sealed:
I think it's just a measure of how sheltered a life the young person has lived. In other words a measure of how naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast" (mental health system). Most teenagers have already figured out that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam; a deceptive and often violent advertising front for the pharmaceutical cartel, and so they know quite rightly that it's better to go to prison than to "ask for help". In prison there's a zero percent chance that you'll end up strapped down against your will with electrodes on your temples and then be continually subjected to high voltage electric shock, chemically sedated against your will, or worse. These things are still happening. Kids who've lived a sheltered life however might think that it's OK to ask for help for really small things..


You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'.


I know some. There's a whole generation who is becoming clued in about such things. They've read popular novels such as 'the girl with the dragon tattoo' which bring it out into the open a little bit.



I do however know a number of people working within or around the mental health system who are kind and caring people that look to help and not harm.


"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, or other forms of tyranny are inherently monstrous. The individuals participating in them may be the nicest guys you can imagine. Benevolent, friendly, nice to the children, even nice to their slaves. Caring about other people. I mean, as individuals they may be anything, but in their insitutional role, they’re monsters, because the institution is monstrous."
-Noam Chomsky


I also know people working in a maximum security prison and after hearing their stories your advice that prison is a better option than seeking the help from the mental health system seems very odd to me.


With the prison system you have a legal framework which you can use to secure your eventual release. Within the mental healthcare system you can be locked away indefinitely without any legal recourse. You can be made to act insane via forced drugging so that those in authority never have to let you go and have plenty of evidence of "insane behavior" to point to.


Would you care to elaborate on what experiences your views of the mental health system are based?


I don't have any personal experience with the mental healthcare system whatsoever I've just conducted extensive research into the abuses that go on there. Allow me to present you with some documentation:

“The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/depatterning.pdf
"In this paper, Ewen Cameron advocates using a combination of electroshock, barbiturates and sensory deprivation to disrupt patients’ sense of time and space. "

^ This was rolled out as a standard treatment and hundreds of thousands of patients were subjected to it against their will and it is still on going. It can be argued that this is actually worse for the patient than the lobotomy procedure that was routinely performed on individuals against their will by the same institution in a previous decades. This regresses the human being back to an infantile state, they lose their memory and literally become brain dead. Go research it.


“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/sensory.pdf
Ewen Cameron delivered this speech at the Brooks Air Force base in 1960 and discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.”

^ Here you have the same doctor giving a briefing about how sensory deprivation actually creates schizophrenia symptoms, note that 4 years later he's recommending it as part of a "cure" for schizophrenia. This shows that he was actually aware the entire time that he was recommending a torture technique as a treatment. This is because the whole system was designed as a mechanism of social control, to make people crazy and keep people crazy not as a system of treatment. He later goes on to contribute to the CIA manual on torture. This is all out in the open now, has been for a decade or more.

http://www.amazon.com/Psychiatry-CIA-Victims-Mind-Control/dp/0880483636/

http://psychrights.org/horrors.htm


I'm also curious what it is you propose that people do instead of seeking professional psychological help for their mental issues.


Seek help anywhere you can as long as it's clearly outside the psychiatric system, but if you do decide that your symptoms are so severe that you absolutely can't get help anywhere else then absolutely retain the services of a qualified attorney before hand to make sure that you're doing everything possible to protect yourself first.

http://psychrights.org/index.htm


I'll also mention that people very dear to me have sought and obtained help within the mental health system and would likely be in far worse shape today if they had not.


I'm not arguing that it doesn't help some people I'm merely suggesting that the risks are not worth the potential reward.

excellent films on this including alternative solutions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsqDyEMkLpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hj49xDEXow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFhm-xhQocM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YBQY4XAUgI

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:19 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Simon E:
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'.


I know some. There's a whole generation who is becoming clued in about such things. They've read popular novels such as 'the girl with the dragon tattoo' which bring it out into the open a little bit.


The girl with the dragon tattoo is a fictional novel, if people are using that as a guide for anything then that truly is worrying.


"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, or other forms of tyranny are inherently monstrous. The individuals participating in them may be the nicest guys you can imagine. Benevolent, friendly, nice to the children, even nice to their slaves. Caring about other people. I mean, as individuals they may be anything, but in their insitutional role, they’re monsters, because the institution is monstrous."
-Noam Chomsky


Alright, in what way is the institution monstrous? I'm genuinely curious.


With the prison system you have a legal framework which you can use to secure your eventual release. Within the mental healthcare system you can be locked away indefinitely without any legal recourse. You can be made to act insane via forced drugging so that those in authority never have to let you go and have plenty of evidence of "insane behavior" to point to.


I suppose so. However I'm fairly certain that prison is a really bad place to end up, and I have yet to meet anyone who has been made to act insane by the mental healthcare system, on the contrary my personal experience is that people have been helped by it. So I fail to see how prison would be preferable to getting treatment for your mental ills.


I don't have any personal experience with the mental healthcare system whatsoever I've just conducted extensive research into the abuses that go on there. Allow me to present you with some documentation:

“The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/depatterning.pdf
"In this paper, Ewen Cameron advocates using a combination of electroshock, barbiturates and sensory deprivation to disrupt patients’ sense of time and space. "

^ This was rolled out as a standard treatment and hundreds of thousands of patients were subjected to it against their will and it is still on going. It can be argued that this is actually worse for the patient than the lobotomy procedure that was routinely performed on individuals against their will by the same institution in a previous decades. This regresses the human being back to an infantile state, they lose their memory and literally become brain dead. Go research it.


I'm sorry but I don't see a report from 1962 as very relevant today. The fact that regular medicals doctors had any number of wild ideas in the past doesn't stop me from visiting a doctor if I am sick today.


Seek help anywhere you can as long as it's clearly outside the psychiatric system, but if you do decide that your symptoms are so severe that you absolutely can't get help anywhere else then absolutely retain the services of a qualified attorney before hand to make sure that you're doing everything possible to protect yourself first.

http://psychrights.org/index.htm


I don't doubt there are plenty of people that have been hurt by mental health professionals, just like there are plenty of people that are hurt by regular medical doctors, or by any number of other institutions. The question then becomes if they do more harm than good, and I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the harm is as great as you claim. You pointing to individual cases of people being hurt is worth just as little as me pointing to individual cases of people being helped.

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:32 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi,

Hermetically Sealed:
This is because the whole system was designed as a mechanism of social control, to make people crazy and keep people crazy not as a system of treatment.


Do you really truly believe that the goal of the mental health establishment is to keep people crazy as a form of social control?

I'm not arguing that it doesn't help some people I'm merely suggesting that the risks are not worth the potential reward.


But how can it help some people if their goal is to keep people crazy? Are they just not very good at their job and accidentally make people well sometimes?

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:13 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hermetically Sealed:
Simon E:
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'.


I know some. There's a whole generation who is becoming clued in about such things. They've read popular novels such as 'the girl with the dragon tattoo' which bring it out into the open a little bit.


The girl with the dragon tattoo is a fictional novel, if people are using that as a guide for anything then that truly is worrying.


Yes but we were talking about teenager's awareness level with regard to this issue I'm pointing out that the truth is bubbling up into fictional works that teens read. They get to concept from the book then they check on the Internet to see if it's true or not, then they find the fictional account is not so far fetched at all.




"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, or other forms of tyranny are inherently monstrous. The individuals participating in them may be the nicest guys you can imagine. Benevolent, friendly, nice to the children, even nice to their slaves. Caring about other people. I mean, as individuals they may be anything, but in their insitutional role, they’re monsters, because the institution is monstrous."
-Noam Chomsky


Alright, in what way is the institution monstrous? I'm genuinely curious.



It is structured in such as way as to harm a certain percentage of the individuals who it claims to be helping in order to turn a profit and for political reasons. It's as simple as that. The concept behind my complaint is not difficult to understand but it does require you to examine the evidence, and the history to see for yourself the truth of the situation.




With the prison system you have a legal framework which you can use to secure your eventual release. Within the mental healthcare system you can be locked away indefinitely without any legal recourse. You can be made to act insane via forced drugging so that those in authority never have to let you go and have plenty of evidence of "insane behavior" to point to.


I suppose so. However I'm fairly certain that prison is a really bad place to end up, and I have yet to meet anyone who has been made to act insane by the mental healthcare system, on the contrary my personal experience is that people have been helped by it. So I fail to see how prison would be preferable to getting treatment for your mental ills.


This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.



I don't have any personal experience with the mental healthcare system whatsoever I've just conducted extensive research into the abuses that go on there. Allow me to present you with some documentation:

“The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/depatterning.pdf
"In this paper, Ewen Cameron advocates using a combination of electroshock, barbiturates and sensory deprivation to disrupt patients’ sense of time and space. "

^ This was rolled out as a standard treatment and hundreds of thousands of patients were subjected to it against their will and it is still on going. It can be argued that this is actually worse for the patient than the lobotomy procedure that was routinely performed on individuals against their will by the same institution in a previous decades. This regresses the human being back to an infantile state, they lose their memory and literally become brain dead. Go research it.


I'm sorry but I don't see a report from 1962 as very relevant today. The fact that regular medicals doctors had any number of wild ideas in the past doesn't stop me from visiting a doctor if I am sick today.


It's relevant today because the policies in question were implemented because of that very document! That is the document that started the ball rolling on that particular type of torture-as-treatement and the ball has not stopped rolling. The history is highly relevant, how can you trust your life to an institution who's history you know nothing about ?



Seek help anywhere you can as long as it's clearly outside the psychiatric system, but if you do decide that your symptoms are so severe that you absolutely can't get help anywhere else then absolutely retain the services of a qualified attorney before hand to make sure that you're doing everything possible to protect yourself first.

http://psychrights.org/index.htm


I don't doubt there are plenty of people that have been hurt by mental health professionals, just like there are plenty of people that are hurt by regular medical doctors, or by any number of other institutions. The question then becomes if they do more harm than good, and I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the harm is as great as you claim. You pointing to individual cases of people being hurt is worth just as little as me pointing to individual cases of people being helped.

Simon


I'm describing a systemic fraud and abuse not mere individual cases. Check out my documentation and documentaries sometime in depth. Learn who these people are and the history of this institution. If it was monsterous in the 1960s and it's policies haven't changed then it's just as monsterous today. I regret having to discuss such disturbing subject matter on a dharma forum, and if I come off as a little overly aggressive or hostile then I apologize, but this is an issue that I do take quite seriously.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:51 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi,

Hermetically Sealed:
This is because the whole system was designed as a mechanism of social control, to make people crazy and keep people crazy not as a system of treatment.


Do you really truly believe that the goal of the mental health establishment is to keep people crazy as a form of social control?


Absolutely, and also as a for-profit business fueling one of the largest and most profitable industries on the planet. I'm convinced that anyone who makes an in-depth study of the history of this institution will come to the same conclusion.



I'm not arguing that it doesn't help some people I'm merely suggesting that the risks are not worth the potential reward.


But how can it help some people if their goal is to keep people crazy? Are they just not very good at their job and accidentally make people well sometimes?


The system needs to maintain an aire of legitimacy so that it is not overrun by angry mobs. For this reason the system filters for certain psychological profiles that it wants to keep out of the body politic for political reasons. The idea is to remove any destabilizing influences from society to help maintain the status quo.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4623892

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:26 AM as a reply to M T.
naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast"


You place importance on the "beast" of psychiatry, but the greater "beast" the person is facing is the illness itself. Most are "naive" to the beast of their own illnesses and to the naivete of their own doctors.

These are real illnesses that need treating.

You're correct, most psychiatrists don't know what they're doing. I don't think it's a big conspiracy, it's just that psychiatry has been bought out by the drug companies (money talks) and people don't go to medical school to become psychiatrists except the med-school flunkies who couldn't get into a more "respectable" specialty. Most psychiatrists are just highly paid drug dealers who barely passed medical school.

Here is the way I approach it:

Read and make a list of only the best of the best genius physicians/psychiatrists (dead or alive) who have successfully treated and even "gasp" cured thousands and thousands of their patients.

Now approach your general practitioner or open minded psychiatrist and have them prescribe accordingly. Take whatever supplements your list of genius psychiatrists have recommended.

The point here being is that you need to educate yourself and not just be some drone that takes whatever drug at whatever dosage the random psychiatrist around the block is giving you.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:10 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:
naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast"


You place importance on the "beast" of psychiatry, but the greater "beast" the person is facing is the illness itself. Most are "naive" to the beast of their own illnesses and to the naivete of their own doctors.


Most aren't ill, but the "beast" would have you believe that EVERYONE IS ILL. Profit incentive anyone ?
Tom Tom:


These are real illnesses that need treating.



I would argue that most people who are diagnosed are misdiagnosed perhaps as much as 90%. I'm not saying that all of the diseases are fictional although I think some are, I'm merely saying that criminals are in charge of handing out the treatment. It's a sad situation. Perhaps there are two beasts, or does one of them have to be the scarlet whore ?


You're correct, most psychiatrists don't know what they're doing. I don't think it's a big conspiracy, it's just that psychiatry has been bought out by the drug companies and people don't go to medical school to become psychiatrists except the med-school flunkies who couldn't get into a more "respectable" specialty. Most psychiatrists are just highly paid drug dealers who barely passed medical school.


you say: "it's not a big conspiracy" but then you turn around and immediately start describing a big conspiracy. lol



Here is the way I approach it:

Read and make a list of only the best of the best genius physicians/psychiatrists (dead or alive) who have successfully treated and even "gasp" cured thousands and thousands of their patients.

Now approach your general practitioner or open minded psychiatrist and have them prescribe accordingly. Take whatever supplements your list of genius psychiatrists have recommended.

The point here being is that you need to educate yourself and not just be some drone that takes whatever drug the random psychiatrist around the block is giving you.


It seems you are saying in other words "don't trust the psychiatric establishment" which was exactly my point, I think we're on the same page pretty much.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:11 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi,


It is structured in such as way as to harm a certain percentage of the individuals who it claims to be helping in order to turn a profit and for political reasons. It's as simple as that. The concept behind my complaint is not difficult to understand but it does require you to examine the evidence, and the history to see for yourself the truth of the situation.


Do you think you could supply that evidence in slightly more compact, textual form? I'm sorry but I simply don't have the time to spend a few hours watching youtube videos detailing the issue. If that is the form the evidence takes then I will remain ignorant in this case.


This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.


Have you had the opportunity to meet these trapped individuals?


It's relevant today because the policies in question were implemented because of that very document! That is the document that started the ball rolling on that particular type of torture-as-treatement and the ball has not stopped rolling. The history is highly relevant, how can you trust with your life an institution who's history you know nothing about ?


I have certainly not done any extensive surveys of the mental health industry, but like I mentioned I do personally know people involved in it (including practicing psychologists) and I am fairly confident that they are not intentionally harming anyone. That leaves me wonder who it is that is sitting somewhere and deciding that certain patients will be locked up for profit.

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:30 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
"it's not a big conspiracy" but then you turn around and immediately start describing a big conspiracy. lol


If you consider human stupidity/incompetence (your average psychiatrist) and desire for money a conspiracy, then, yes, I suppose it's a conspiracy.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:43 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
It seems you are saying in other words "don't trust the psychiatric establishment" which was exactly my point


I'm saying don't trust the average psychiatrist, but this does not mean mental illness does not exist nor are all treatments for them necessarily harmful.

Yes, it is less than ideal that you have to "out-smart" your psychiatrist to be adequately treated in the mental health field.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:01 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi,


It is structured in such as way as to harm a certain percentage of the individuals who it claims to be helping in order to turn a profit and for political reasons. It's as simple as that. The concept behind my complaint is not difficult to understand but it does require you to examine the evidence, and the history to see for yourself the truth of the situation.


Do you think you could supply that evidence in slightly more compact, textual form? I'm sorry but I simply don't have the time to spend a few hours watching youtube videos detailing the issue. If that is the form the evidence takes then I will remain ignorant in this case.


Ok, I presented you with two documents that I think make my case, let me try to explain them. In the document entitled "“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960 " we have a transcription of a speech by Dr Ewen Cameron delivered at the Brooks Air Force base which discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.” The second document entitled “The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962 is a copy of the 'Journal of the American Psychopathological Association' dated April 1962 wherein the same prominent doctor argues for the use of sensory deprivation as a treatment for schizophrenia along with the use of electroshock. This whitepaper is what historically led to the introduction of sensory deprivation and electroshock as legitimate treatments for this disease which led to the torture of a vast amount of people over the following decades. The proof is right there that this CIA affiliated doctor was intentionally promoting a cure of schizophrenia which was not really a cure but instead a technique he knew would produce the symptoms of schizophrenia. Do you follow ? He was intentionally lying about this treatment which led to a policy change that adopted torture as treatment across the entire institution, and those two documents are proof. You can study the history of this doctor and the history of how these policies were introduced to verify what I'm saying. You can get more background detail by watching some of those documentaries.



This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.


Have you had the opportunity to meet these trapped individuals?



Not personally, but I've seen very strong evidence that they exist and I have read biographies of ones that have managed to escape the system somehow.



It's relevant today because the policies in question were implemented because of that very document! That is the document that started the ball rolling on that particular type of torture-as-treatement and the ball has not stopped rolling. The history is highly relevant, how can you trust with your life an institution who's history you know nothing about ?


I have certainly not done any extensive surveys of the mental health industry, but like I mentioned I do personally know people involved in it (including practicing psychologists) and I am fairly confident that they are not intentionally harming anyone. That leaves me wonder who it is that is sitting somewhere and deciding that certain patients will be locked up for profit.



I'm confident that your friends in the industry are not intentionally harming anyone. High level power brokers define the ruleset that decides which type of patients are to be locked up for profit/social control and which ones are not based on a wide set of criteria. I have no way of knowing if they intervene on a case by case basis, but I would imagine they do so only in extreme circumstances.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:48 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I would argue that most people who are diagnosed are misdiagnosed perhaps as much as 90%


I think this is a bit high. In general, I would say that bipolar disorder (and depression) is diagnosed correctly in the vast majority of cases. I actually think schizophrenia is under-diagnosed (and usually diagnosed as something else that involves identical drug treatment). As to other conditions, I am not familiar with those and cannot say. An obvious point: The more mild and less intrusive and life-altering your symptoms are the more one should suspect that they've been misdiagnosed.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:59 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.


Before the advent of the tranquilizers (and Hoffer and friends' orthomolecular methods, there was NO treatment for schizophrenia. Though approximately 50% or more would fully recover (Hoffer states today only 10% fully recover on tranquilizers alone), society had no way of dealing with these people other than to lock them up forever. A system that allows the lock-up of people in this manner obviously can be abused for power reasons. This does not stop the fact that there were millions of people suffering from a real disease called chronic schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a very common illness (occurring in about 1 in 100 people in all populations around the globe).

People are rarely locked up forever now. The situation is not necessarily better. Today, instead of being locked up, they roam the streets of all major and minor cities. The new institutions are the streets. They receive no treatment and instead freeze to death on the sidewalks and/or are regularly raped, robbed, beaten and/or killed by others.

Also ECT (electro-convulsive shock therapy) is not like it used to be. Often it is one of the best ways of taking a patient out of a very dangerous and demented state. Today it is done under general anaesthesia and can be greatly augmented through orthmolecular treatments to improve memory. I haven't had the procedure, personally, but it is not like it was in the 50s.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:12 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi

Hermetically Sealed:
Friend I showed you two documents. In the document entitled "“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960 " we have a transcription of a speech by Dr Ewen Cameron delivered at the Brooks Air Force base which discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.” The second document entitled “The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962 is a copy of the 'Journal of the American Psychopathological Association' dated April 1962 wherein the same prominent doctor argues for the use of sensory deprivation as a treatment for schizophrenia at the same time also arguing for the use of electroshock. This whitepaper is what historically led to the introduction of sensory deprivation and electroshock as legitimate treatments for this disease which led to the torture of a vast amount of people over the following decades. The proof is right there that this CIA affiliated doctor was intentionally promoting a cure of schizophrenia which was not really a cure but instead a technique he knew would produce the symptoms of schizophrenia. Do you follow ? He was intentionally lying about this treatment which led to a policy change that adopted torture as treatment across the entire institution, and those two documents are proof. You can study the history of this doctor and the history of how these policies were introduced to verify what I'm saying. You can get more background detail by watching some of those documentaries.


Like i already said, this is proof of nothing. Once incident 50 years ago where a doctor did bad things doesn't make a conspiracy.

I don't go around feeling germans are evil just because Hitler was a dick.

(Edit: I just realised I unintentionally invoked Godwin's law, hah!)


Not personally, but I've seen very strong evidence that they exist and I have read biographies of ones that have managed to escape the system somehow. One such victim who's life work strongly resonates with me is Ezra Pound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound


Which once again takes us back many years.


I'm confident that your friends in the industry are not intentionally harming anyone. High level power brokers define the ruleset that decides which type of patients are to be locked up for profit/social control and which ones are not based on a wide set of criteria. I have no way of knowing if they intervene on a case by case basis, but I would imagine they do so only in extreme circumstances.


So are the same power brokers deciding this for the entire world? What needs to be socially controlled would seem to vary quite a bit from country to country.

You know, as a practicing Mason I have on several occasions had to convince people that we are not an evil society looking to control the world. I'm sorry to say that this has sort of the same feel to it.

Simon