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Julie's practice log and place to ask questions

I haven't posted in these forums for a while now, probably about a year, as this forum made it a little too easy to whine about things that come up as opposed to noticing it and letting it be. Also, I have been quite wrapped up with getting used to living in Thailand again and with a new job as a university professor. I'm still relatively busy, so I don't think I will post long comments or logs, but this can be something that kept me away from getting caught up with thoughts and emotions during practice and daily life, I hope.

As to where I am, I'm still working toward third path. I have been on it for 3 years now, and admittedly don't really know where I am on the path at the moment. I came to realize that the time I left the US about a year ago was basically when I was in the "misery" phase of the practice with lots of loss. I also doubt I have reached re-observation yet, as I'm not particularly angry with most people at the moment (but it could show up differently, I suppose). I'm probably somewhere in the dark night phase of the path.

I also haven't found good place to practice here in Thailand. I went to a couple of places for a 1-day retreat or weekend retreat in Bangkok (I still can't take long vacation at the moment), and I'm somehow sick of how the teachings are put together here with lots of blind faith and belief. Also, most retreats seem to be geared toward beginners (which I can probably benefit from, but I have some doubts with that too.) Anyway, I decide to stop the search for the place at the moment and focus on practicing well instead, or at least to not to bind into suffering too much.

Okay, that's it for now. I will try to post something short every day (telling myself). Seeing thoughts as thoughts, emotions as emotions. Okay, no more reactions. Practice metta.

emoticon

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/4/13 5:38 AM as a reply to Julie V.
I have been dealing with the morality question (and karma maybe) in the past couple of weeks. It was basically something I did long time ago that basically was not so right like cheating on the exam. It kept coming up, and because of everything I have read in the dharma circle in Asia about karmic result, somehow the mind just said I'm not going to succeed because of this karma. It was funny how the thoughts took shape differently almost every day. First, I just remorsed. Then, it tried to figure out what to do with intense feeling of fear. Then, it said I have to do something to fix this (which is really impossible), maybe telling someone about it. Maybe this will reduce the effect of it somehow. But then it kept going back and forth with just facing it. Come, I'm ready. Now I can kind of conclude that all of these might just be an excuse not to take responsibility for what happen or is going to happen somehow ... whether I will get caught up with it again tomorrow or what other shapes it will take place is to be discovered.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/4/13 10:39 AM as a reply to Julie V.
Julie,

I have been dealing with the morality question (and karma maybe) in the past couple of weeks. It was basically something I did long time ago that basically was not so right like cheating on the exam.


Remorse can be an unwholesome mental state if it buries us in more subsequent unwholesome mental states (like continuously flogging oneself or causing one to "sorrow over what as been done and what has not been done" and growing the unwholesome state of conceit by way of causing one to constantly think "I'm a failure" and/or develop a fierce self-hatred, envy of others...etcetera [1].

Or one could recognize their remorse (etymology: to re-bite and re-bite) and develop one's wholesome and beautiful mental factors such as conscientiousness, hiri (respect for self and others, more care in thought, speech, and action), moral dread (a memory of how one's immoral action caused a long-lasting pain and thus one shies from such action again), and one could instead focus on germinating the seeds of wholesome and beautiful mental factors: geminating and watering generosity/non-greed, metta/non-hate, proficiency in letting unwholesome mental state seeds remain dormant through lack of feeding them and proficiency in having faith in one's precepts/moral trainings and sati (sati as both a guardian over one's mental factors and what is arising as well as sati being an active presence and quality of mind relating to all phenomenas that we encounter/realize), which sati and precepts' faith can cause tranquility and lightness of mind and these help the mind become wakeful and not sluggish and help the mind to be equanimous. These can support the mind's flexibility and wholesome wieldiness and thereby not let the mind become rigidly stuck to any one thing conceitedly or divisively or with clinging, e.g., as unwholesome self-flogging or as clinging even to the knowledge of dependent origination. The wholesome and beautiful mental states can lead one to have, despite one's previous actions, consistency in wholesome, unregrettable conduct, confidence in rectitude/non-hypocrisy. From a field of well-developed wholesome and beautiful mental states, one may deal better with the consequences of one's previous and unwholesome actions should such consequences arise. One will be well-trained and practiced to deal better with any hard situations, even fluently operating with wholesome and beautiful mental states.

What do you think?

It was generous of you to share your hard experience. Thank you. I respond as much to you as to myself and others who understand your feeling and experience. One of the Buddha's teachings is that one is not locked into some kamma deterministically; one has creative responsibility for contributing to extant dhammas, like current events and consequences, as one's mind is the forerunner of all things. So this welcomes one to take up wholesome, liberating changes. That's nice. :o)

Best wishes and thank you for your post.

_______
[1] and [2] these comments on wholesome and unwholesome and beautiful mental factors from from Abhidhamma Sangaha, a Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, published by BPS Pariyatti Editions, mainly pages 83-88. I'm just back from a retreat on the Theravadan Adhidhamma and Ven. Bodhi made this challenging compendium warm and accessible, practical to daily life and situations like the one you raised, as well as the class being immensely engaging and often hilarious.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/4/13 11:20 AM as a reply to Julie V.
If it is of any consolation, I have seen remorse mentioned several times in the suttas as a positive force (e.g. 1, 2).

An "unskillful" reaction towards remorse would be to become more and more perturbed.

A "skillful" thing to so would be to abstain from the same kind of actions that led to remorse, by bringing it to mind at the right moment, to abandon the mental qualities that led to these actions, and to develop those qualities that prevent them.

I.e., what katie says, her advice is as buddhist as it gets.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/4/13 7:35 PM as a reply to Julie V.
You need to forgive yourself for past bad actions because the ego likes to defend itself as "good" or "bad". The most important thing is to not let guilt or remorse prevent you from bettering yourself. If you can make good choices with kindness and consideration it's much better than wallowing (which I was an expert at in the past). Negative emotions can be used for good. If you use your anger to make better choices and use your guilt to not repeat bad choices of the past then the negative emotions aren't self-destructive. It's almost like that saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". Don't let knowledge of a wrong turn make you do more wrong turns. It can be used to do the opposite.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/5/13 6:06 AM as a reply to Julie V.
Thanks for the responses. When I'm conscious of what I have done in the past that was not so great, such as the habits, the moral conducts, etc., there is always something in there that says I'm going to be like this forever. The hardest thing seems to be to realize that I can act wholesomely at the present moment and let whatever "bad" things go and forgive myself completely. I can't say that I won't be caught with anything that will arise again in the future, but thanks a lot to all the posts; at least I can come back to read these, and hopefully, I will suddenly remember not to cling to those ideas too much emoticon

Back to today's practice.
Well ... The thing that I remorsed over and over again did not even show up today (but if it does again, I will follow you guys' advices/ comments.) I had lots of activities during the day today with lots of classes to teach. I'm in the pleasant mood almost all day today. I have been trying to be mindful during my walk to places, which surprisingly was very easy today. I felt some rush in the afternoon and I tried to encounter that by slowing myself down and noticing the rush and seeing the energy in my body.

About formal sit, I did ~40 min sit in the morning. After going to the weekend retreat here about a month ago using basically Mahasi sayadaw technique, I have been quite curious at seeing the rising and falling of the abdomen. With many years of looking at breath at the nostril, it has been really hard to see this actually, and I admittedly still can't feel it. In fact, I have been breathing so lightly these days (at least from time to time) that I don't even know if I'm breathing in or out. I mean it was not like I spaced out, but I really did not know. This made me even more curious about it. When not doing that instead of seeing the rise and fall, I seemed to feel the tightness in the stomach and felt much urge to sway back and forth (which I did), alternating with being lost in the thoughts and bringing my attentions back to it. At some points (and this happened from time to time), there seemed to be some energy moving up to the eyes, making me squeeze my eyes and fell into some space that was darker and quieter than usual. That did not last very long though.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/5/13 7:12 AM as a reply to Julie V.
btw,

Katy: That sounds like a good retreat. hmm...maybe I can find a place that is not too conservative here to practice too. Maybe that does not matter anyway if I can find someone I trust and think he knows what he is talking about.

Bruno: It's funny I never read those suttas that way, even though I have heard them before several times. Now I have new ways to look at it; thanks for pointing this out.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/6/13 5:10 AM as a reply to Julie V.
One question I contemplated on today was whether I reacted to the thoughts. When a thought arose and I knew I was thinking, I tried to let my mind think and watch it like a witness. But then I was not so sure if I was actually adding anything to it or creating the thought further. I seemed to be able to stop it, but that felt like an aversion. I definitely noticed an aversion to an aversion quite a few times today. Maybe I'm trying too hard (?)

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/6/13 11:06 AM as a reply to Julie V.
One question I contemplated on today was whether I reacted to the thoughts. When a thought arose and I knew I was thinking, I tried to let my mind think and watch it like a witness. But then I was not so sure if I was actually adding anything to it or creating the thought further. I seemed to be able to stop it, but that felt like an aversion. I definitely noticed an aversion to an aversion quite a few times today. Maybe I'm trying too hard (?)
From my experience, what you're doing yields excellent results when repeated over time: paying attention to how thoughts change/give rise to sensations in the body and more thoughts in the mind.

Without breaking up a chain of unskillful (aka, unwholesome) thoughts, they give rise to more of the same family of thoughts (unskilfull, unwholesome/harmful), forming what Bhikkhu Bodhi has called "The Law of Cumulative Development". (This again is coming from the same Bhikkhu Bodhi's Abidhamma retreat and his "Law" regards moments of thoughts, cittas, how they string together in this buddhist typology of consciousness).

Instead of stopping that thought with aversion --- like you said, creating aversion for aversion --- one can be simple and honest with an unwholesome thought. I hear it as if Thich Nhat Hanh is speaking: "Laziness [for example], I know you're here. We're going for a jog; you can come, too." Or "Remorse, I know you're here. You're pointing me to change speech for the better, carefully, full of care." etcetera. So there is friendly receptivity while still changing the mental stream from unwholesome to wholesome without inserting a punitive or aversive "block".

It can feel synthetic at first to practice wholesome thinking, but those do support the development of both an equanimous mind and even neutral feeling.

Does that make sense to you?

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/7/13 10:30 AM as a reply to katy steger.
Instead of stopping that thought with aversion --- like you said, creating aversion for aversion --- one can be simple and honest with an unwholesome thought. I hear it as if Thich Nhat Hanh is speaking: "Laziness [for example], I know you're here. We're going for a jog; you can come, too." Or "Remorse, I know you're here. You're pointing me to change speech for the better, carefully, full of care." etcetera. So there is friendly receptivity while still changing the mental stream from unwholesome to wholesome without inserting a punitive or aversive "block".

It can feel synthetic at first to practice wholesome thinking, but those do support the development of both an equanimous mind and even neutral feeling.

Does that make sense to you?


I have never heard of this, but it seems like a nice way to combine insight practice with metta actually. What I usually did was to say something like "laziness is like this." and often after noticing enough compassion just arises by itself without forcing it.

I have a question for you though. From my experience like today (or maybe every Saturday emoticon) when I seem to be cycling through re-observation (I thought so because I was irritated last night and I simply just had no energy and don't want to do anything this morning), it has been really difficult to actually notice these feelings like laziness or low energy and actually get myself to do whatever it is. I mean I did it when I really have to, for example, to keep my job, but then, eventually, I really need to pay those dues. Also, I seemed to have more success allowing myself to accept those feelings and just rest, instead of fight it. Or usually, if I fight it, eventually I have to surrender and have compassion for myself. It seems my strategy with difficult stages of insight in general has been to have compassion for myself for whatever difficult things happen. Rest, if possible. Then, when I cycle through some more attentive stages, it will be time to catch up with work, etc.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/7/13 10:39 AM as a reply to Julie V.
I practiced some metta-insight hybrids today while sitting. I simply just set an intention to wish everyone well and feel whatever feelings that might arise without forcing it. Also, if a thought of some people arose and after being mindful of it, I just included these people into my metta practice as well. I could feel pretty intense metta feeling this way and could drop phrases eventually. There was just metta feeling left with some lightness and piti (so I think that was light version of 2nd jhana).

For the day, I went through some low energy stages, so I set an intention to let it be and paying attention to some big targets instead. For example, instead of noticing all the hands or feet movement, I observed the whole body movement and let my attention be at the peripheral instead.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/7/13 12:23 PM as a reply to Julie V.
One question I contemplated on today was whether I reacted to the thoughts. When a thought arose and I knew I was thinking, I tried to let my mind think and watch it like a witness. But then I was not so sure if I was actually adding anything to it or creating the thought further. I seemed to be able to stop it, but that felt like an aversion.


From what I've observed, every thought is born out of some kind of energetic moviment throught the body, and the mental manifestation is the way that energy gets released; so, stop thinking, in a way, it's like trying not to feel an emotion, just on a much smaller and quicker scale; when I try to stop thinking, that particular pathway for energetic release is not working anymore, but the energy is still flowing, and so get released in a way that is a bit more chaotic and mildly uncomfortable, because now it has to go out in a way that is not natural.

Also, -again, according to my observations- when you are observing you are doing a few things, some of them being, getting more concentrated, wich makes energies run faster, and moving energies upward; since thoughts are very much energy-dependent, there is no way you can possibly observe them and not influencing them at all, IMO.

PS: I do metta-insight hybrids as well... love that practice

Bye!

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/8/13 10:41 AM as a reply to Mario Nistri.
From what I've observed, every thought is born out of some kind of energetic moviment throught the body, and the mental manifestation is the way that energy gets released; so, stop thinking, in a way, it's like trying not to feel an emotion, just on a much smaller and quicker scale; when I try to stop thinking, that particular pathway for energetic release is not working anymore, but the energy is still flowing, and so get released in a way that is a bit more chaotic and mildly uncomfortable, because now it has to go out in a way that is not natural.


In some ways, I think I can observe this too. I notice too that sometimes the only way the energy can move through wherever it needs to, I have to really let the mind think.

Also, -again, according to my observations- when you are observing you are doing a few things, some of them being, getting more concentrated, wich makes energies run faster, and moving energies upward; since thoughts are very much energy-dependent, there is no way you can possibly observe them and not influencing them at all, IMO.


Are you suggesting that I should not even try to observe or investigate anything? I have always thought that for this path, I should practice being a witness. Part of me just says that in fact not doing anything at all is enough in and of itself, but then the other part of me always doubt that. Since the first time I truly learnt how to meditate, I use Mahasi Sayadaw techniques (or something extremely similar to it) and all I was instructed to do was to watch the thoughts, see how they arise or change and get interested in them. It's somewhat hard to believe that not doing anything at all is the right 'way' to practice or that's it's enough at all.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/8/13 10:48 AM as a reply to Julie V.
I simply determined to let things be again today. Instead of observing thoughts, I just went for the energy in the body, which has been going quite crazy today. I felt slight irritation again for a few hours and that came with some tightness in the belly, as well as the back of the neck and the shoulders. It seemed I could move energy through this part by trying to stretch them or simply just let my body get as crazily restless as it wanted to. Of course, it was very difficult to do with other people, and I just tried to act as normally as possible.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/8/13 6:38 PM as a reply to Julie V.
I have a question for you though. From my experience like today (or maybe every Saturday ) when I seem to be cycling through re-observation (I thought so because I was irritated last night and I simply just had no energy and don't want to do anything this morning), it has been really difficult to actually notice these feelings like laziness or low energy and actually get myself to do whatever it is. I mean I did it when I really have to, for example, to keep my job, but then, eventually, I really need to pay those dues. Also, I seemed to have more success allowing myself to accept those feelings and just rest, instead of fight it. Or usually, if I fight it, eventually I have to surrender and have compassion for myself. It seems my strategy with difficult stages of insight in general has been to have compassion for myself for whatever difficult things happen. Rest, if possible. Then, when I cycle through some more attentive stages, it will be time to catch up with work, etc.
I'm not sure about your question -- you are sharing for feedback on maybe this excerpted process? Anyway, I like your advocacy of and agree with that point: resting and having compassion for oneself during hard times.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/8/13 2:56 PM as a reply to Julie V.
Are you suggesting that I should not even try to observe or investigate anything?


For God's sake, no.

I'm just saying, it's normal that the act of observing will influence somehow the way what is observed presents itself.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/9/13 6:29 AM as a reply to katy steger.
katy steger:
I have a question for you though. From my experience like today (or maybe every Saturday ) when I seem to be cycling through re-observation (I thought so because I was irritated last night and I simply just had no energy and don't want to do anything this morning), it has been really difficult to actually notice these feelings like laziness or low energy and actually get myself to do whatever it is. I mean I did it when I really have to, for example, to keep my job, but then, eventually, I really need to pay those dues. Also, I seemed to have more success allowing myself to accept those feelings and just rest, instead of fight it. Or usually, if I fight it, eventually I have to surrender and have compassion for myself. It seems my strategy with difficult stages of insight in general has been to have compassion for myself for whatever difficult things happen. Rest, if possible. Then, when I cycle through some more attentive stages, it will be time to catch up with work, etc.
I'm not sure about your question -- you are sharing for feedback on maybe this excerpted process? Anyway, I like your advocacy of and agree with that point: resting and having compassion for oneself during hard times.


I was actually responding to this sentence: "I hear it as if Thich Nhat Hanh is speaking: "Laziness [for example], I know you're here. We're going for a jog; you can come, too." The fact that he is still going for a jog just said something like let's do it anyway even if you don't want to.

Okay, I'm totally thinking ways too much emoticon

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/9/13 6:35 AM as a reply to Mario Nistri.
Mario Nistri:
Are you suggesting that I should not even try to observe or investigate anything?


For God's sake, no.

I'm just saying, it's normal that the act of observing will influence somehow the way what is observed presents itself.


For some reasons, your quote reminded me of Kenneth Folk's 3rd gear (I haven't read it for a while, so I totally forget exactly what it said. I just remember that the 1st gear is noting, 2nd gear being being witness, and 3rd gear being doing nothing.) Anyway, at this point, I will just practice being a witness, alternating with noting (more like knowing, I guess), whatever feel right. No need to fool around.

I'm totally thinking too much over the weekend emoticon

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/9/13 6:35 AM as a reply to Julie V.
Ah, okay. emoticon

still going for a jog just said something like let's do it anyway even if you don't want to.
Yeah, this is the way I do this. If I placate too much a negative world/self view with too much rest and compassion, my body will learn, "Hey, negative self/world view gets more time in bed and coddling." That's me. I'm not saying you'd do that. So once I've rested a bit, I definitely get out and make efforts again and then I also "reward" those efforts. So this is friendly, effortful behavioural conditioning, to me, that has worked well little by little.

RE: Julie's practice log and place to ask questions
Answer
9/9/13 6:44 AM as a reply to Julie V.
I set up an intention to actually go through my day sending well wishes to everyone I met or saw. In a way, I was doing quite well, as I definitely caught myself judging others several times, but I'm still sending well wishes to them though. On the other hand, that intention was not carried through throughout the day. I felt quite a lot of energy in the afternoon with some restlessness, so I decided to watch the restlessness instead. There was definitely so much urge to get on the random websites and looked through them without any purposes! When seeing that, I decided to just meditate for a while instead, and that was a good way to channel those energies somewhere else. Now I'm totally in a good, hyperactive, clear-mind mood. It's time to witness myself fantasizing, I guess emoticon