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Claims to Attainments

stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days

Hey all.

From hitting SE back in July, on Friday I think did MCTB 4th path, done is what had to be done. (Prior to this I have been sitting daily for probably 2-3 years). Basically I noted my way to 1st and 2nd, exactly like in MCTB, then switched to a truckload of other practices, basically anything that felt creative and useful. Namely self-inquiry, visiting a non-dual guru type, tarin's way of doing 2nd, creative writing exercises, watching loads of youtube, books, artistic self-belief exercises, meditative contemplation of sutras and writings (in a koan-like way), magick, going on phase of spiritual tourism, a bit of mahasi noting and choiceless awareness, and a lot of walking around doing my own imagination practices.

Finally on Friday I feel like I fully realized that "in the seen, only the seen, has always ever been only the seen, will always ever be only the seen, for everyone, whether enlightened or not", I could understand fully what it means to say "everyone is enlightened, whether they realise it yet or not", at that moment something popped, and my state since then has been characterised by a seemingly total lack of sense of agency (no-ONE in particular trying to do anything, just many instances of doing), lack of ability to really believe in any idea or thought of "doer", and a sudden and total drop away of the huge existential seeking drive which dominated my life for the past 3-5 years. And also zero self-conflict drag, despite being in stressful or indecisive situations. The word mindfulness as understood previously just doesn't make sense anymore. I am 80% sure it's done, but open to accept ideas that it isn't and I am tricking myself.

Why I am I writing this? Well I do quite like talking about myself emoticon But seriously I feel there is a lot of a value in posting achievements, esp quick one or ones that use different techniques, as it inspires others into what's possible out there.

but also aware that I wrote a bit on what I think was My SE experience and noone replied at all, which led me to believe that I guess what I wrote wasn't particularly useful or interesting to anyone... so I will put it out there, is anyone remotely interested in hearing anything about my experience? (it's ok if you're not emoticon )

1. does anyone want to ask questions to check out/diagnose/ see if I am deluding myself? I would really welcome/appreciate this.
2. My approach was pretty eclectic and I feel that all the tools I pulled off the shelf helped smash this thing, so maybe there might be somethings in there for people.
3. I see now that for me, the core of this thing was really all about self-belief, and the techniques are relevant only in they suited my mind and my belief system, and created the chance for insight to occur. I think that some practitioners could do with more tools to work with their belief systems.
4. I think it's all a very interesting story, as it happened to me! but then I would think that emoticon

and thank you to everyone here, very heartfelt! as I am feeling full of gratitude right now. especially those here who post a lot and Daniel for MCTB.
Much love, Anthony

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/16/13 4:39 AM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
Give it a year, or at least a month or two before claiming this and that.

Nick

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/16/13 7:54 AM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
Ditto what Nik said - after some pretty fast progress through the earlier paths, I believed I had landed 4th path for about 18 months before my doubts + someone telling me to my face that I hadn't made me accept otherwise. It was a miserable and painful experience, but on reflection it was also worth its weight in gold for all the suffering it revealed around petty status-associations and all the other blatently self-centred garbage that comes with the idea of attainment. It also made me re-examine my practice afresh, and what it really meant to me. (why am I doing all this?)

Regardless, it sounds like your practice is moving along well and you've no lack of enthusiasm, so good job. stay curious!

Dan

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/16/13 3:16 PM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
congrats, so now you can meditate with peace of mind emoticon

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/16/13 8:00 PM as a reply to Paweł K.
Paweł K:
congrats, so now you can meditate with peace of mind emoticon


Do you have an off button for your sarcasm?

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/16/13 9:52 PM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
Congrats.

I made a progress at a similar (slightly faster emoticon) pace when I started. So know it is possible, and can relate.

It can be a quite heady when things are happening so fast.

The best advice is don't take the the enlightenment stuff too seriously.

A couple of years down the line I read my old writing with and smirk at how much of it was spiritual bypassing.

As you continue to grow, I suspect you might do the same with yours. It is a normal part of gaining spiritual maturity.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 12:12 AM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
sadalsuud B-Aquarii:
Hey all.

From hitting SE back in July, on Friday I think did MCTB 4th path, done is what had to be done. (Prior to this I have been sitting daily for probably 2-3 years). Basically I noted my way to 1st and 2nd, exactly like in MCTB, then switched to a truckload of other practices, basically anything that felt creative and useful. Namely self-inquiry, visiting a non-dual guru type, tarin's way of doing 2nd, creative writing exercises, watching loads of youtube, books, artistic self-belief exercises, meditative contemplation of sutras and writings (in a koan-like way), magick, going on phase of spiritual tourism, a bit of mahasi noting and choiceless awareness, and a lot of walking around doing my own imagination practices.

Finally on Friday I feel like I fully realized that "in the seen, only the seen, has always ever been only the seen, will always ever be only the seen, for everyone, whether enlightened or not", I could understand fully what it means to say "everyone is enlightened, whether they realise it yet or not", at that moment something popped, and my state since then has been characterised by a seemingly total lack of sense of agency (no-ONE in particular trying to do anything, just many instances of doing), lack of ability to really believe in any idea or thought of "doer", and a sudden and total drop away of the huge existential seeking drive which dominated my life for the past 3-5 years. And also zero self-conflict drag, despite being in stressful or indecisive situations. The word mindfulness as understood previously just doesn't make sense anymore. I am 80% sure it's done, but open to accept ideas that it isn't and I am tricking myself.

Why I am I writing this? Well I do quite like talking about myself emoticon But seriously I feel there is a lot of a value in posting achievements, esp quick one or ones that use different techniques, as it inspires others into what's possible out there.

but also aware that I wrote a bit on what I think was My SE experience and noone replied at all, which led me to believe that I guess what I wrote wasn't particularly useful or interesting to anyone... so I will put it out there, is anyone remotely interested in hearing anything about my experience? (it's ok if you're not emoticon )

1. does anyone want to ask questions to check out/diagnose/ see if I am deluding myself? I would really welcome/appreciate this.
2. My approach was pretty eclectic and I feel that all the tools I pulled off the shelf helped smash this thing, so maybe there might be somethings in there for people.
3. I see now that for me, the core of this thing was really all about self-belief, and the techniques are relevant only in they suited my mind and my belief system, and created the chance for insight to occur. I think that some practitioners could do with more tools to work with their belief systems.
4. I think it's all a very interesting story, as it happened to me! but then I would think that emoticon

and thank you to everyone here, very heartfelt! as I am feeling full of gratitude right now. especially those here who post a lot and Daniel for MCTB.
Much love, Anthony
what is your understanding and experience of "awareness", "luminosity", "source", "being" now?

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 8:54 AM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
May I ask how old are you? It seems that people that make fast progress are fairly young and don't have their mind full of broken dreams.

Beside that, could you tell us more about the non-orthodox methods you used, how did you choose them at any specific moment (like creative writing, what is the approach in regards to mindfulness), etc.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 10:14 AM as a reply to Paweł K.
Pawel, I really enjoyed this comment, it made me laugh for so many reasons! emoticon

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 10:22 AM as a reply to Dan Bartlett.
Dan, Nik thanks for the advice I will just keep trying to follow the shape of practice and keep an eye on things and see, and not run round claiming everywhere (in real life I don't have anyone to tell about this sort of thing who would be interested anyhow!).

And sorry if my post seems brash, it was well-'intentioned'. I wondered if it might be unsuitable but then thought, well, it is a section called "claims to attainments".

'Stay curious' is excellent advice!
cheers, Anthony

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 10:43 AM as a reply to Simon T..
Simon T.:
May I ask how old are you? It seems that people that make fast progress are fairly young and don't have their mind full of broken dreams.


Simon, excuse me for saying this, it is done with good intent. But it seems to me that you are trying to confirm further in yourself a belief that can only keep you down? What/who would you be without that belief?

With regards to writing, other sources, etc, after seeing comments above, I don't want to blag on about what I did, before some time passes, but one book I found helped phenomenally is the Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, it's a book about motivation and self-belief to unlock one's full creative potential, and it's structured in the form of a 12 week course with exercises each week. It address exactly your post. With much love, Anthony

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 10:54 AM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
Thanks D Z is your account of it all online anywhere? I looked up spiritual bypassing, as I didn't know what it meant!
Yeah, basically my whole life has been spent trying to bypass reality into something else which would be be more satisfying somehow!! emoticon thanks for the nice words. Anthony

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 11:12 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
what is your understanding and experience of "awareness", "luminosity", "source", "being" now?

One phrase which kept coming up for me again and again is "now wash your bowl", which I took to mean that as soon as a belief, or concept (like the abovementioned ones), had helped me see through some false belief I had, I would then immediately throw it away, washing the bowl. And watching carefully the play of these beliefs coming up, eating each other, and what remains.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/17/13 3:33 PM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
sadalsuud B-Aquarii:

Why I am I writing this? Well I do quite like talking about myself emoticon But seriously I feel there is a lot of a value in posting achievements, esp quick one or ones that use different techniques, as it inspires others into what's possible out there.
but also aware that I wrote a bit on what I think was My SE experience and noone replied at all, which led me to believe that I guess what I wrote wasn't particularly useful or interesting to anyone... so I will put it out there, is anyone remotely interested in hearing anything about my experience? (it's ok if you're not emoticon )
Anthony

I am interested in descriptions of your path moments. What happened each time? Were they all the same or are there differences?
From your previous post - My SE experience
sadalsuud B-Aquarii:
I didn't detect discontinuity for sure
how did the rest of the paths work out as far as a blip or discontinuity?
Thanks for sharing,
~D

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/18/13 1:55 AM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
sadalsuud B-Aquarii:
An Eternal Now:
what is your understanding and experience of "awareness", "luminosity", "source", "being" now?

One phrase which kept coming up for me again and again is "now wash your bowl", which I took to mean that as soon as a belief, or concept (like the abovementioned ones), had helped me see through some false belief I had, I would then immediately throw it away, washing the bowl. And watching carefully the play of these beliefs coming up, eating each other, and what remains.
When there is clear insight into the delusion of self and the background observer is seen through, there is vividness, luminosity and clarity of phenomena. The very thing is crystal clear sharpness without the background observer or vantage point - just sound, sweetness, scenery. Seeing/awareness/luminosity is just descriptions of the quality of transient experience, radiance is just the transience, there is no seeing besides the self-luminous seen.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/18/13 1:53 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
Just randomly found an old post by Daniel.

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/95028

Aight, I'll jump in.

I do use the word "emptiness" loosely to refer to both Fruition and seeing things as they are, and this probably needs some revision. I fall into the same basic trap as the original dudes did with Nirvana, where they used it both to describe Fruition and to describe Arahatship. It is the same basic categorical ambiguity. The relationship between these is an age-old question, and is basically just one of categorization.

As to seeing "emptiness" in real-time, this is what anagamis do particularly well, especially those who have been them for a while, and what is means is that they can notice that sensations are just where they are, doing just what they do, on their own, not observed, not as object, but simply as manifesting transience. This comes as much from having clearly penetrated and understood the sensations that seemed to make up "subject" as it does about anything to do with "object". However, there are still processes that are somewhat artificially dualistic, distorted, subject-objecty, or however you want to put it.

As to primordial awareness, it actually becomes something of an extraneous concept at the end, as finally there is "in the seeing just the seen, in the hearing just the heard, in the feeling just the felt, etc.", and things being that simple, that direct, that untangled, is what makes the difference, and you can call it what you like.

Fruition is when reality vanishes in very specifically complete way and and then reappears. Primordial awareness is realized when one realizes there is no such thing as primordial awareness that is different from the field of transient manifestation, though there are various aspects of that understanding that can become the focus of attention, which is to say present themselves, and various linguistic ways to talk about this, some of which are clearly more ambiguous than others.

.......

Beware the seduction of the formless realms. They are very enticing. It is not that they do not convey something important, it is not that they don't write something very good and useful on the mind, and it is not that they don't provide some hints about things, but in the end they are conditioned. I actually highly recommend them to anagamis who are working on finishing things up, but not because they contain some truth that more ordinary mind states do not, as in the end, one has to find some aspect of things that is present at all times, in the most ordinary places and objects, something that was always true, something unconditioned, and, as all is transient, it ends up being something that is not bound up in the specific qualities.

The anagami is easily lead astray in various directions. They long for various artificial relationships between the ultimate and relative, with some of these being along the lines of:
-they want emptiness to be some transcendent superspace in which they rest untouched by phenomena
-they want emptiness to be something like the transcendence of the formless realms
-they want emptiness to be the complete disappearance of experience that somehow happens in realtime
-they want emptiness to be like some subtle other dimension that gives them a break from reality
-they want to go into Fruition and never come out
-they want emptiness to be some extra light or radiance or quality that gets added onto phenomena that somehow makes them better or more pleasant

These are all subtle or gross forms of aversion, desire, and ignorance. In the end, this is it, but there is some very real, straightforward, untangling of subject-object at its core that reveals why the dreams that the formless realms create and the paradoxical escape dreams that anagamis can fall into are not a realistic refuge, and also reveals something very simple about why the Buddha talked a lot about suffering.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/18/13 4:08 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
In the same fashion as above this is Daniel's criteria for 4th path taken from this thread: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2759757

Daniel's standards for 4th are high and what you have attained needs to hold up over a period of time before a proper claim can be made.

Daniel Ingram:

Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.

There are other aspects that may be of value to discuss at some other time, but those are a great place to start for those who wish to claim this. If you truly have those, then perhaps we can talk about a few other points that are less central and essential.

Now, how there can still be affect (though quite modified in many ways) when there is centerlessness and agencylessness, this is a mystery to the AF kids and to me as well, and that brings me to my next point: there seems to be areas of development depending on what you look for and aim for that may arise independently, and not everything seems to come as a package necessarily. Those things are what I looked for really hard for about 7 years, and that is what I found. Now I find that the interest in the unraveling of what drives that residual affect is arising, and so that investigation happens on its own also.

Perhaps people will find this helpful in some way.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/18/13 12:40 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Hey Tom thanks for this I hadn't seen it before! That is really helpful and deffo the standard I would like.

UPDATE: So I spent the first 4 days in what seemed like me to be total 100% agencyless no-stick teflon brain mode.

Then last night, I started to slip out, things just seemed a bit more agencied. I found I could 'seem to' control my actions again. At night I woke up rushing with a lot of nervous energy, and had some thoughts which seemed cyclic and seemed to be dragging. It was a pretty heavy cycle of some sort. I had doubts about the attainment state, but there was also a mild understanding of that whatever the content or cycle was, or whatever state one thinks one is, the game has been seen. But nonetheless it was deffo not 4th-path mode.

When I woke up again this morning, I sat just doing some concentration practice and had a little contemplation in the park, and all day including now I am back in agencyless-teflon-mode. Right now my computer has just died, so am using a friend's one while we try and fix mine, in an awful hurry as I have to go to a dance class tonight, and there a lot of stuff going on around us here in the studio. It is a highly annoying and stressful situation, there is a lot of buzzing/tension (annoyance) in my heart area, but there is no resistance at all to the unfolding of events, I am just in agencyless mode, watching/hearing us scream at the computers, and Chris is using a powerdrill 2 metres away, and it's just a jolly show.

But basically it appears I am in and out of teflon mode. But however today I had a contemplation which I think might have locked it in (I am an optimist / cocky emoticon ), it was about not clinging to teflon-"mode" /4th path - there is no such thing as teflon mode or path as a fixed state, it is simply a total lack of resistance to each moment of experience, in each moment, aka what it means to drop desire totally, moment by moment. Sounds twee and obvious but something clicked / sync'd up.

But anyway so obviously I am NOT THERE YET (but I am sure I am close, given that I am oscillating in and out) and I will see what happens in the next couple of weeks/months. Also obviously the subtler things which Daniel talks about, again, I guess I won't know yet.

So just to apologise for shouting BINGO a bit early! Thanks for everyone's help though and I don't feel embarrassed or bad about this all - on the contrary I am so glad to be able to have experienced people share and guide me through this! It's amazing that this place exists where people can tall openly like this. Better I think than hanging out alone with my experience for a month (or years) wondering what's going on. I don't have anyone experienced to talk stuff like this over with here. (btw is anyone in LONDON / BRISTOL / SW UK out there?).

thanks all, Anthony


Tom Tom:
In the same fashion as above this is Daniel's criteria for 4th path taken from this thread: http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2759757

Daniel's standards for 4th are high and what you have attained needs to hold up over a period of time before a proper claim can be made.

Daniel Ingram:

Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.

There are other aspects that may be of value to discuss at some other time, but those are a great place to start for those who wish to claim this. If you truly have those, then perhaps we can talk about a few other points that are less central and essential.

Now, how there can still be affect (though quite modified in many ways) when there is centerlessness and agencylessness, this is a mystery to the AF kids and to me as well, and that brings me to my next point: there seems to be areas of development depending on what you look for and aim for that may arise independently, and not everything seems to come as a package necessarily. Those things are what I looked for really hard for about 7 years, and that is what I found. Now I find that the interest in the unraveling of what drives that residual affect is arising, and so that investigation happens on its own also.

Perhaps people will find this helpful in some way.

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/18/13 4:42 PM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
few questions:
1. Why don't you like your 'doer'?

2. Does questions about correctness of your attainments arise?

3. If not then how it feels

4. you said:
"in the seen, only the seen, has always ever been only the seen, will always ever be only the seen, for everyone, whether enlightened or not"

I have synesthesia and it's all mixed up a little for me. Am I too thrown into this 'everyone' crowd or do you make room for few exceptions?

RE: stream entry to MCTB 4th path in 55 days
Answer
9/18/13 8:52 PM as a reply to Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii.
Spiritual bypassing is more when someone has mix of some realization, and craving / attachment related to spiritual realization. That creates a sort of psychological shield against difficult mental formations eg. in the form of delusions of grandeur.

This is why I say don't take the enlightenment stuff too seriously.

But it is pretty normal I think to fall into that sort of trap, and it shouldn't take away from your genuine progress. Usually such delusions will naturally unravel given curiosity and honesty.

Regardless I think it is brave that you are claiming attainment publicly, and for me it is always inspiring to see other people getting it done.

Whether your experience matches up with MCTB 4th path is not the most important point. How it impacts your experience of life and that of other sentient beings (incl. your friends, family, etc.) is more important.


Also I had a journal here on DhO where I kept track of the stuff. I had a lot of genuine insight and realization during that period, but looking back I wrote quite a bit of nonsense as well.