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An email to Jed Mckenna

An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/2/13 11:12 PM
Here is an email I just wrote to Jed Mckenna a spiritual teacher who seems like the only person I have read who clearly describes an event similar to what happened to me a month ago which has totally re-oriented/destroyed my spiritual practice. If anyone is curious about that event feel free to look through these posts:

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4659888


http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4680247

Dear Jed,

I can relate very well to what you said about being motivated for awakening by discontent at living a lie. One day about a month ago, after years of Buddhist meditation I realized that I didn't really know if this was going to work out, I didn't know what the end of suffering was or if I would ever achieve it or if there really was such a thing. I also didn't know if this type of meditation or that type of meditation was the way to that goal.

I had given that goal a special importance, decided that it was the point of my life and pushed everything to the side for it. I had long suppressed any doubt about whether it was a real possibility or about whether it ought to be pursued.

Now for the last month, life has looked really strange without this huge, shining light to guide me, without this endgame, without this "happily ever after." It has been oscillating between scary, depressing, and joyful. What is weird is that there has been a lack of any single truth or belief running through it, everything is up for grabs now world-views are formed and abolished on a day by day basis. Lots of emotional intensity and cathartic experiences. All right on par with your version of what real awakening is like, yay me (is what I think on some days).

Here's a problem though. Which is that what if there really is a literal "happily ever after." What if there is a way to re-orient my mind such that it does not suffer ever again (and lets say that life is eternal through rebirth or nirvana, that raises the stakes infinitely). Would that be worth pursuing? Here in this place where I don't know, I am frozen. If I say "it's not possible" then I feel like I am living a sort of lie, a fear-based way of hardening myself and moving on, I really don't know if it is possible or not. If I say "It is possible and I'm gonna get it" it still feels like living a lie because maybe it is not possible, it feels like fearfully taking the easy way out, I could just live like that up till the day I am on my death bed and then just say "maybe next life." Both ways of thinking feel like escapes because both entail repressing a doubt and enforcing an assumption, a delusion.

If I stay in the middle and just say "I don't know" then I end up in a strange space. Sometimes I try and resolve the "don't know" by saying that if I don't know i might as well just go for nirvana because what have I got to lose..? Sometimes I try and resolve it by arguing that it doesn't matter whether I experience eternal happiness or eternal suffering. I argue to myself that the observer of reality gets used to pleasure or pain as equals, and that if there at some point is no observer then it doesn't matter whether there is pleasure or pain because who would care. This resolution seems forced as well. Everything that would resolve this place of total lack of direction feels forced, including the idea that I should stay in this place because that is the way to "true awakening." Every single thing I could possibly do including standing still feels like forced bullshit! LOL!

Any advice?

Sincerely,
Adam

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/3/13 2:59 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
So in my summary: you were a true believer, then had a crisis of faith and became an atheist. But now you have become an agnostic, and are torn between wanting to become a true believer again but knowing deep down that its bullshit.

It seems to me like you want to give up any notions of nirvana and awakening and eternal happiness or eternal suffering, and take each day at comes. Have you talked to any (soto) zen teachers? As this would seem like a good avenue to pursue.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/3/13 4:11 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
[quote=Adam . . (1/25/13)]I feel like what I should do now is something like just be happy not as a practice, no goal, I can't "practice" things anymore, they never work. Hard to explain what I mean by this. Application of a "technique" just feels like an incredible burden perhaps what is required is a 'lifestyle' approach (practice is taken as the goal itself, i.e. you do it because it is pleasant) but I can turn that into a "technique" I have to work at pretty easily.http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3944123

Also: The Yogi Toolbox: The Lifestyle Approach

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/3/13 9:04 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
It's funny, this afternoon and evening I am feeling really overjoyed. The basic idea i.e. nothing matters, nothing worth seeking is still the same. Yet I feel really good now. I think the difference comes from some sort of triumphant narrative, I started to think to myself that "now I am really getting enlightened" and so I started feeling really good. I don't particularly have a preference between the state of feeling bad and just focusing on "nothing matters, nothing is going to get better" vs. the state of feeling good and thinking "now i've got it, nothing matters."

Truly they seem equal, I still can't find motivation to seek anything at all. Well, okay maybe there is some preference still but I am not to concerned about that or anything. I am just going to keep taking it as it comes. I guess the fact that my feeling state shifted so much indicates some dishonesty, some degree of caring about enlightenment vs. not enlightenment no matter how many times I have said that i don't care. Thinking about that, I kind of want to go back to the depressed state because then it should be more clear where I still am valuing and caring about things. Ah maybe I should investigate this new ideal of not valuing anything! Is there any value in a mind that doesn't value things? Maybe this whole thing is a sign of being to uncomfortable with the meaninglessness and copping out into a new enlightenment belief system. I don't know!

lol

?!?!?! sorry I guess I will just post this to keep documenting what is goin on with me in case anyone cares, goin on a month of feeling like I am crazy.

If there is any overriding theme here it is to question the moments of happiness and see what new belief system I bought into, and then to consciously increase the depression and fear as they arise. Kind of counterintuitive.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/3/13 9:24 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Thinking about that, I kind of want to go back to the depressed state because then it should be more clear where I still am valuing and caring about things. Ah maybe I should investigate this new ideal of not valuing anything! Is there any value in a mind that doesn't value things? Maybe this whole thing is a sign of being to uncomfortable with the meaninglessness and copping out into a new enlightenment belief system. I don't know!


You have been released from one extreme view, but now are clinging to nihilism.

Do you drink coffee ?

How many spoons of sugar do you like in it ? Do you prefer sweetner instead ?

Cream or Milk ?

All concepts are equally untrue, but still have value relative to each other in very pragmatic and functional way. Enlightenment is not about having no preferences per se, more about not clinging to preferences.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/3/13 10:11 PM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
Actually I don't want to get enlightened... That is just not relevant to me. I literally don't care what anyone has said about what enlightenment or freedom is. I don't care if it is an extreme view or whatever else. To the extent that I find that I care about these things I feel somewhat sick.

I am sort of interested in whether it's true though. What is this value that concepts have relative to each other? Why should I care about this pragmatic whatever? Why should I care about functioning?

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/3/13 11:23 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
Actually I don't want to get enlightened... That is just not relevant to me. I literally don't care what anyone has said about what enlightenment or freedom is. I don't care if it is an extreme view or whatever else. To the extent that I find that I care about these things I feel somewhat sick.

I am sort of interested in whether it's true though. What is this value that concepts have relative to each other? Why should I care about this pragmatic whatever? Why should I care about functioning?


What is relevant to you?

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/3/13 11:38 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
nick that is just what I ask myself. actually it seems clear to me that this question is everyone's first question but they avoid it like the plague... or some version of it like "why should I do anything" or "why should I get out of bed in the morning?"

I don't have any answer at all which is weird considering that I am out of bed. my mind shies away from that inquiry right now.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 12:17 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
nick that is just what I ask myself. actually it seems clear to me that this question is everyone's first question but they avoid it like the plague... or some version of it like "why should I do anything" or "why should I get out of bed in the morning?"

I don't have any answer at all which is weird considering that I am out of bed. my mind shies away from that inquiry right now.

Sounds like you're in denial of something. Why are you on this existential quest? Why are you asking these questions? Why do you care if enlightenment is or is not relevant to you? Seriously, what is your motivation?

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 12:27 AM as a reply to T DC.
Why are you on this existential quest? Why are you asking these questions? Why do you care if enlightenment is or is not relevant to you?


I ask myself those too!

And it does seem like I am in denial of something considering that I am doing all these things without an answer to that first question of "why do anything?"

The thing is that question is stronger than me and in my experience I will eventually be forced to face it. That has been the pattern over and over again throughout my life and to me it seems like it is the pattern of everyone's life. Everyone is going in the same direction in the same way that people swimming in a powerful river are. Some swimmers might make mighty efforts to go upstream but in the end they will get tired and come back to the "why do anything?"

Also, why should I not be in denial?

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 12:50 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
in the end they will get tired and come back to the "why do anything?"

Also, why should I not be in denial?


Ha, the ultimate life question, 'why do anything?' ha, seems pretty accurate.

Why not be in denial? It doesn't seem to be a healthy way to live your life, it seems to be better to face your issues. There's not really a why, it's just how it is. If you are starving, you can question why you need food in the first place, but eventually you are going to die if you don't eat. Why does it matter if you die? Well, it doesn't really, but it may matter some to you personally.

Frankly, in my experience, meditation doesn't really address the question 'why', it really just helps with 'how', so to speak. How things are, versus why they are.

I don't think anyone really knows why things are. What is the great cosmic purpose? No idea.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 1:06 AM as a reply to T DC.
but it may matter some to you personally


wait wait wait. so it might matter to one but it doesn't really matter, and this is a good reason to care about it? isn't that a delusion? caring about something that doesn't matter?

as for how vs. why: spirituality is all about the "how" of ending suffering but it ignores the why. more accurately it assumes the why, it takes up a purpose then moves on to how to achieve that purpose without ever really investigating the purpose.

what spirituality (i don't know if this is true of all "spirituality") is doing is looking at some experiences, objectifying them and separating yourself from them, and calling them good, then figuring out how to make every single moment totally suffused with that good, right? or perhaps taking some experiences, objectifying them and calling them bad, then figuring out how to make them be totally absent in every single moment. The end of suffering and unconditional happiness?

some say it is the fundamental question of life, that it is so necessary to ask "how do I end suffering." what I think is so funny is that for it to be labeled useful and necessary they have to have engaged in a great deal of "doublethink." they pretend that there wasn't a question before it: "what is useful, what should i do in life." really they just answered that without a second thought and decided that "what I should do" is end suffering. they created a problem and doublethunk there way into believing it was there in the first place, why? out of fear of having no purpose to strive for I guess, no one to become.

really being honest with yourself (i.e. not escaping that initial question of "what should i do?") leaves one in depression. so if you want to classify my practice, call it "the practice of depression."

what is weird is that I am ecstatic at the moment. !!! I probably won't be in a day or two and that doesn't bother me so much, in fact I am kind of leaning that way intentionally. weird.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/4/13 1:32 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:


I don't have any answer at all which is weird considering that I am out of bed. my mind shies away from that inquiry right now.


Perhaps simply allowing for there to be no answer at all may be required. It reminds me of what my mum used to tell me when I'd be at my wits end about why the f@&k I had no idea what I was supposed to do with my life (still don't know).

"Perhaps that is just where you are meant to be at the moment"

I hated it but in hindsight it would act as some trigger for simply accepting my predicament. Sometimes what is relevant is the fact that nothing is relevant. I'd simply sit with it, inhabit it, shuffle my mum's Osho zen cards in hope they'd my answer, but nothing I did brought what I wanted until I simply said f@&k it, I give up. In those moments I felt like it was the only thing that brought relief. But I had to go through the angst of wtf first.



Nick

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 4:26 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Adam,

It is not clear that you want a solution, but here I go again anyway: the time tested solution to the problem of nihilism in (at least in Mahayana) Buddhism is compassion, and the understanding of the difference between conventional reality (where you can find meaning) and ultimate reality (where no meaning exists and asking "why" questions are absurd).

And if you need an antidote to the fuckedupness of pragmatic dharma, try soto zen. Joko Beck's books are a good place to start.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 7:08 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
nick that is just what I ask myself. actually it seems clear to me that this question is everyone's first question but they avoid it like the plague... or some version of it like "why should I do anything" or "why should I get out of bed in the morning?"

I don't have any answer at all which is weird considering that I am out of bed. my mind shies away from that inquiry right now.


Everyone gets out of bed or does something rather than nothing because the fear of death is greater than the fear of suffering of doing something/getting out of bed and facing life. It might be that the suffering puts someone in bed but then eventually that person faces the prospect of dying which is even greater than the comparatively miniscule suffering of life, so the suffering of life is a better situation and this makes that person to get out of bed and do something.

If someone comes face to face with the fear of death, then other fears (of life) are nothing compared to it, and hence the suffering of life may not amount to anything.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 10:05 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai
Perhaps simply allowing for there to be no answer at all may be required.


I still can't do that. "Required"?? required for what? For enlightenment? For the end of suffering? For moving along in life? All of that is based on an "answer" already assumed. See what I'm saying? There's just no solution (yet) including the solution of accepting that there is no solution. Do you see how this is an escape? A way to gloss over that fundamental question? (albeit the most sneaky way)

sawfoot
Adam,

It is not clear that you want a solution, but here I go again anyway: the time tested solution to the problem of nihilism in (at least in Mahayana) Buddhism is compassion, and the understanding of the difference between conventional reality (where you can find meaning) and ultimate reality (where no meaning exists and asking "why" questions are absurd).

And if you need an antidote to the fuckedupness of pragmatic dharma, try soto zen. Joko Beck's books are a good place to start.


Thank you but I thought what was fairly clear is that i am not looking for a solution, not to the extent that a solution assumes an un-investigated answer to the "why" questions.

I can't even find meaning in conventional reality, conventionally there is suffering and conventionally suffering is bad. Why should I care about these conventional notions? Why should I act on them?

I have read Joko Beck's books and I liked them. But they don't really do anything for me here. Why should I polish the mirror or see that there is no mirror? No reason to do any of that.

change
Everyone gets out of bed or does something rather than nothing because the fear of death is greater than the fear of suffering of doing something/getting out of bed and facing life. It might be that the suffering puts someone in bed but then eventually that person faces the prospect of dying which is even greater than the comparatively miniscule suffering of life, so the suffering of life is a better situation and this makes that person to get out of bed and do something.

If someone comes face to face with the fear of death, then other fears (of life) are nothing compared to it, and hence the suffering of life may not amount to anything.


This doesn't really relate to my question (though maybe it wasn't intended to). This is about why people (including me) do get out of bed but I am interesting in why I should get out of bed. I don't find there to be too much suffering in getting up and doing stuff, it's just that I don't have a reason to, and something in me suddenly is unavoidably interested in a reason.

I am going to keep investigating "whys" guys. It's not that I am sorry if it is annoying, it is just that over time it has become really clear that anything other than investigating "whys" just is the scenic route to investigating "whys". It keeps coming back to that for me and now I am just stuck at that question and can't get very far with ignoring it as I have in the past. I am just too conscious of ignoring it and something just pokes me really hard until I go back to investigating it.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/4/13 10:22 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Here's a thought that might help get you guys off my ass ;) just kidding I have been having fun and am really being sincere in these inquiries.

Maybe when there is 100% no reason to get out of bed there will no longer be a sense of self.. I sure doubt that if such a thing is possible it would occur through creating a goal of enlightenment or no-self or no-suffering.

Now the fact that I am thinking about that possibility indicates that there is a great deal more depression and fear ahead. If I am still creating a goal and thinking there is something valuable to achieve then (sometime in the future) I am going to inevitably turn the "Why" onto that new goal, which is going to be even more scary and depressing than anything that has came before because now I am totally devoted to that single perspective so it will be even more like i am dying and then even more like i am dead during the questioning process of it.

The thing is that this "why" totally has a life of its own and I can't really speed it up, only slow it down. In fact trying to speed it up would be slowing it down. In fact trying not to speed it up would be slowing it down. There's just nothing I or anyone can do to affect it. Either it is in the forefront of the mind because one is tired of fighting it and it works inevitably on every goal and intention or it is still kept down through defense mechanisms and denial. If this is what enlightenment is then it is 100% out of anyone's control.

The fact that I have all of these views and goals as I said indicates that I am basically being totally dishonest right at this moment with everything I am saying. It indicates I have created a goal and am not questioning it, oh well. Maybe you get what I am saying so I will stop talking in circles. In fact it kind of pains me to post this because I am embarrassed how obvious it will be that I am engaging in this doublethink. Delusion is some subtle stuff. Ok I will make myself hit the save button!

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/4/13 12:50 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Another solution: stop being so selfish!?

So in the Tibetan model (as I understand it), you train in compassion along with emptiness. They link together but compassion is essential. It is the path.

And so by the time your world is shaken by emptiness you have already conditioned your mind to adopting a baseline attitude to operate in the service of others. You train yourself out of selfishness, so that you no longer are driven to the "why does it matter ( TO ME!)" line of thinking, and you avoid the nihilism. So where you are now may reflect a problem that can happen with a more pragmatic dharma/Therevadan style path, I don't know. Perhaps it is too late!

Maybe a better starting point might be rather than why should I reduce my own suffering, instead: why should I strive to reduce the suffering of others.

You might not ever be able to come up with a "good" or satisfactory answer to either of those questions (I don't think I have), but your cat who is waiting to be fed in the morning doesn't care if you haven't (AKA conventional reality...).

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
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10/4/13 1:45 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
This is exactly what is happening to Adam:

He is being subject to postmodern relativism. In essence he is unable to discern what is real and not real, what is worth pursuing and not worth pursuing, because... why do anything? What is the value in anything over another thing when all things are relative? What is the purpose?

Adam is attempting to look for a LOGICAL reason, to do something. But no such thing exists.

Adrift in a sea without any reference point, Adam is unable to make a first step towards anything useful. Because... even the notion of usefulness is relative to him.

This is why I prefer theism, because theism provides a reference point and a basis for truth.

As a general aside: Modern culture for some reason, and I don't know why, decided to throw away nearly all the hard-won social and spiritual wisdom of the past ages (our ancestor's wisdom), in FAVOR of the notion that OUR rationality and OUR experience can dictate what the truth is.

This is absurd, tradition is necessary for progress, there needs to be questioning of tradition IF it is necessary, but simply abandoning the traditions of the past, for their own sake, is a warped decision that will result in catastrophe (as a heuristic).

Peace.

RE: An email to Jed Mckenna
Answer
10/4/13 6:42 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
[...] I am interesting in why I should get out of bed. I don't find there to be too much suffering in getting up and doing stuff, it's just that I don't have a reason to, and something in me suddenly is unavoidably interested in a reason.

I am going to keep investigating "whys" guys. It's not that I am sorry if it is annoying, it is just that over time it has become really clear that anything other than investigating "whys" just is the scenic route to investigating "whys". It keeps coming back to that for me and now I am just stuck at that question and can't get very far with ignoring it as I have in the past. I am just too conscious of ignoring it and something just pokes me really hard until I go back to investigating it.


I used to have similar questions which totally sent me into some kind of depression/despair. Here are some thoughts that came to my mind while reading:

It keeps coming back? Sounds like there may be something important in there. Maybe there's something in you which is yet undiscovered but which is closely related to this question? What is it that makes you ask the question about why? Is there anything else in you which is 'near' or somehow related to the question and which might be wanted to be heard as well? If you ask yourself the question, do you feel that answering it would solve everything? If you assumed that you had the answer, what would change within you?

Why is it that this question is so important for you? If you found something you wanted to do regardless of why, then would the question about 'why' matter to you more, less or equal?

If you don't have an idea how to find this out, you could use (for example) the focusing instructions by Eugene Gendlin.